Breeding out DA

[Dekka]

Take earth dogs (the true terriers) they need to go down a hole and have enough 'fight' and prey drive to stay down there and engage the prey.

I have been hunting, it takes a very drivey dog to stay alone in the dark in cramped quarters and face quarry that is of similar size in its own den. You need a dog willing to take damage to do it. This ends up breeding dogs who not only don't back down to confrontation but tend to escalate when presented with confrontation and or pain.

[HayleyMarie]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Take earth dogs (the true terriers) they need to go down a hole and have enough 'fight' and prey drive to stay down there and engage the prey.

I have been hunting, it takes a very drivey dog to stay alone in the dark in cramped quarters and face quarry that is of similar size in its own den. You need a dog willing to take damage to do it. This ends up breeding dogs who not only don't back down to confrontation but tend to escalate when presented with confrontation and or pain.

Ohhh I like this example Kerri

[*blackrose]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Take earth dogs (the true terriers) they need to go down a hole and have enough 'fight' and prey drive to stay down there and engage the prey.

I have been hunting, it takes a very drivey dog to stay alone in the dark in cramped quarters and face quarry that is of similar size in its own den. You need a dog willing to take damage to do it. This ends up breeding dogs who not only don't back down to confrontation but tend to escalate when presented with confrontation and or pain.

I do understand what you are saying. And I agree. But I find it interesting that some breeds are able to have that unwillingness to back down and yet aren't typically DA, like Pops and Romy stated. It makes me wonder that, even if DA is correlated with "fight", there isn't some way to get around that.

[Dekka]

But to me its a different not back down. Sighthounds tend to back down if alone and over powered. AND they know they can run. A terrier 5 feet underground is very much alone with the fox/racoon/badger/groundhog and can't easily flee if things go wrong. I personally know of a few JRTs that have been killed hunting, and have heard of more. Its not all that rare. I have been told many a time if you can't afford to not come home with your dog, you can't afford to go out. Its not common, but its common enough. I wonder what the mortality rate is like in other hunting dogs.

Most sighthounds hunting predators wouldn't do it one on one, it was a few wolf hounds (who are a fair bit bigger than wolves, zoi are pretty big too, though likely mass similar to that of a wolf) chasing down a wolf. Having back up makes a big difference IMO.

Having back up makes you more secure, you don't have to be insane lol, but it also means you need to get along. A dog who hunts in a group is no use if they would rather fight each other.

[cliffdog]

Originally Posted by *blackrose

I do understand what you are saying. And I agree. But I find it interesting that some breeds are able to have that unwillingness to back down and yet aren't typically DA, like Pops and Romy stated. It makes me wonder that, even if DA is correlated with "fight", there isn't some way to get around that.

I don't know what on earth would make it worth trying to "get around it". For a responsible owner, DA is really not a problem. It never has been for me.

[Linds]

Originally Posted by cliffdog

For a responsible owner, DA is really not a problem.

Responsibility really has nothing to do with. A responsible owner will adjust if they find themselves with a DA dog and/or avoid breeds prone to it if they don't want a high possibility of dealing with it. A responsible owner knows what they want and don't want in a dog which is why I completely agree with you that if you don't want to and wont' deal with DA then stay far away from bully breeds and other breeds known for it.

But, DA for me is a problem that I don't want to deal with. Which is why I got a breed who is known for dog friendliness. I would love a nice APBT but for me dog aggression is a big enough issue at this point in my life that it's pretty much a deal breaker.

But, I do agree with you 100% that trying to breed out DA would end up culling way to many steller dogs that are amazing examples of the breed but also want to have a dog in their face.

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Linds

Responsibility really has nothing to do with. A responsible owner will adjust if they find themselves with a DA dog and/or avoid breeds prone to it if they don't want a high possibility of dealing with it. A responsible owner knows what they want and don't want in a dog which is why I completely agree with you that if you don't want to and wont' deal with DA then stay far away from bully breeds and other breeds known for it.

This. It has nothing to do with responsibility, it has to do with preference. Hell, a dog with crap nerves and a low bite threshold is no problem for a "responsible owner" but it's not a problem I'd deal with. (I'm not saying DA is a temperament flaw like a low bite threshold is, btw.) Not much is a problem for a responsible owner willing to cope, but we all have preferences and different ways of living.

I'd love a real APBT and I'll have my chance someday, but I can't deal with the DA right now. It's not fair to ask my roommate to C&R her dog (she didn't sign up for that), and I don't have the space to C&R comfortably anyway. I don't think that makes me irresponsible. I think I'm making the most responsible decision by saying that I can't deal with it right now, actually, and going with a dog-tolerant breed.

[cliffdog]

Originally Posted by Linds

Responsibility really has nothing to do with. A responsible owner will adjust if they find themselves with a DA dog and/or avoid breeds prone to it if they don't want a high possibility of dealing with it. A responsible owner knows what they want and don't want in a dog which is why I completely agree with you that if you don't want to and wont' deal with DA then stay far away from bully breeds and other breeds known for it.

But, DA for me is a problem that I don't want to deal with. Which is why I got a breed who is known for dog friendliness. I would love a nice APBT but for me dog aggression is a big enough issue at this point in my life that it's pretty much a deal breaker.

But, I do agree with you 100% that trying to breed out DA would end up culling way to many steller dogs that are amazing examples of the breed but also want to have a dog in their face.

That's exactly what I mean. A responsible owner won't get a breed with traits that they don't want. I have no problem at all with DA, it's not even a blip on my radar. If I wanted a dog social dog, there are many to choose from...

A lot of people love Pit Bulls, but they are like any other breed: they have their downside. DA is the only drawback to Pit Bulls that I know of (other than public perception, of course). Unfortunately there is no such thing as a perfect breed. The selecting away from DA would invariably lead to some other undesirable trait popping up, such as lack of drive and the issues that come along with a drastically reduced gene pool. Such is life...

[cliffdog]

Originally Posted by Emily

I'd love a real APBT and I'll have my chance someday, but I can't deal with the DA right now. It's not fair to ask my roommate to C&R her dog (she didn't sign up for that), and I don't have the space to C&R comfortably anyway. I don't think that makes me irresponsible. I think I'm making the most responsible decision by saying that I can't deal with it right now, actually, and going with a dog-tolerant breed.

As I mentioned above, that's exactly my point. Responsibility in APBTs means dealing with the dog aggression or not getting an APBT at all... (Or, of course, adopting an adult dog that is proven cold, as I mentioned before.)

[Linds]

Originally Posted by cliffdog

That's exactly what I mean. A responsible owner won't get a breed with traits that they don't want. I have no problem at all with DA, it's not even a blip on my radar. If I wanted a dog social dog, there are many to choose from...

Ok cool, then I agree with everything you've said! I just took what you worded to be something else.

It's funny you know, I talked to a friend after I posted that who has three APBT's and she just laughed at me about my aversion to potential dog aggressive breeds and how she doesn't even think about it. Which is when I reminded her how she would want to kill my herding breed for his love of his voice.

I'll tell you though, finding a herding breed that still works and has a low probability of being nervy AND not dog aggressive/selective is not as easy of task as one might think. But I digress.

I seriously can not imagine culling out all the APBT's out there that are freaking amazing because they are DA. Would not be worth it in my eyes and like you said, god knows what else would pop up to replace it.