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  #11  
Old 10-24-2011, 12:50 AM
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Kat09tails - do you mean no working line breeder would bring in a German show line dog, period, or no working line breeder would bring in a roached back dog?

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The foundation of the white GSD is showline - period... end of story. You will find them in the showring - you will find them in ribbon contests. You will not find them working or if they do it's as a novelty because no serious person or organization uses them in any kind of consistency. Don't feel too bad about it - American showline normal GSDs are there too.

Show me a breeder using their white GSDs as border patrol, a military who actually uses them, a line of working PP/police dogs, a sheep farmer who actually uses them to do anything besides worrying sheep in a round pen. Then we'll talk.
Huh? No, the white German Shepherds have always been a part of the breed... the foundation for white German Shepherds are the same dogs you find in the pedigrees of black/tan dogs and sable dogs.

A white German Shepherd is just that, a German Shepherd with a white coat. Maybe you are mixing up White Shepherds and white coated German Shepherds. A white coated German Shepherd does not necessarily imply specified breeding FOR that color. You can breed German Shepherds and if two dogs carry the recessive gene for the coat color, you get white German Shepherds. Just as the foundation for long coated German Shepherds are not show line either...?

I don't know, it boggles my mind. Yes, breeders who breed specifically for color are going to sacrifice the more important (IMO) elements of the total GSD. But that does not mean every white German Shepherd you come across is from a strictly pet/show line breeding.

That being said, no, I have not seen wGSDs or WSS that impress me as working dogs, and I have to admit, being new as I am to working dogs, I AM impressed easily. I am just confused with the strong attitude towards this topic. If someone came along asking for long coated German Shepherd breeders, I would expect the talk about how breeders should not focus on coat length only, but I would NOT expect anyone to declare that long coated GSDs are from show lines only and therefore completely unsuited for work and even performance, and no one interested in such venues should even consider them.

As far as performance and showing goes, I have seen some white coated German Shepherds and White Shepherds very, very successful in agility, flyball, rally, obedience, herding, dock diving, etc. None in Canada, unfortunately, but I can ask around for you. I have a friend with two White Shepherds from a breeder who has handled her own dogs and titled them in multiple events, and I am sure she'd be happy to find out about any in your area.
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  #12  
Old 10-24-2011, 12:54 AM
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Ok, I'll bite. Please show me the pedigree and pictures of a white GSD that has shown up in a litter of working line dogs sometime within the last decade. Thanks
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:11 AM
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Kat09tails - do you mean no working line breeder would bring in a German show line dog, period, or no working line breeder would bring in a roached back dog?
I know plenty of people in working GSDs. Most of them won't touch an American showline dog with a stick. The crippled ass dragging type and **** poor temperament is a put off to working ability. Generally speaking they're not good for much except the show ring, bark deterrents, and the couch. Usually police forces and dealers won't even look at them - I know of no guide dog organizations who will look at them either because of the hip to hock issues.

German showline is where things get fuzzy. Some do... some don't. Some german showlines find success in both fields. Personally if I was hedging my bets for a working dog I wouldn't be looking at a dog who had showtitles in their pedigree.

What I would be looking for is stuff like IPO, Sch titles along with a few dogs with things like Border patrol, narc detection, PP, patrol, or military. Those dogs believe it or not while not common are available to the public and if you've never experienced a GSD of sound working temperament I highly suggest it. You'll never look at another working dog the same way.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:15 AM
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Sch is not the same as working either. Sch is performance. Work is work. They issue a paycheck and you'd be hard pressed to find one in a law enforcement agency or military anywhere. I'd put more on finding a dobe actually working somewhere before I'd see a white GSD doing an actual job for someone's pay. The foundation of the white GSD is showline - period... end of story. You will find them in the showring - you will find them in ribbon contests. You will not find them working or if they do it's as a novelty because no serious person or organization uses them in any kind of consistency. Don't feel too bad about it - American showline normal GSDs are there too.

Show me a breeder using their white GSDs as border patrol, a military who actually uses them, a line of working PP/police dogs, a sheep farmer who actually uses them to do anything besides worrying sheep in a round pen. Then we'll talk.
Really? OK if you say so then it must be true right?

Wrong. Check out this link of one of the top kennels for WGSD's in Canada

Service Dogs bred by Hoofprint

These are just the working dogs that are listed that she chose to put on this page. There are actually many more. And here are the jobs of the different dogs on this page:

Cadaver Dog with Summit Search and Rescue Dogs
SAR
Hearing Dog from NEADS.
Guide Dog
Search and Rescue Dog with the Fair Oaks Volunteer Fire and Rescue Company.(This one helped at the pentagon)
drug detection dog
trained to search airplanes and other places for illegal substances.
trained to assist a quadriplegic
Explosive Detection (THis one was paired with a police officer)
Military
London Ontario Police Force

These are just a few mentioned on her page and this is just from one breeder. I would love for you to contact her and tell her that their work and her breeding them for their working ability is just a novelty.

With the right lines a WGSD can do everything its colored counterparts can do. It is as simple as that. If it wasn't so late I would post many more links to many more breeders just like her.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:30 AM
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Really? OK if you say so then it must be true right?

Wrong. Check out this link of one of the top kennels for WGSD's in Canada
40 years in the breed with 19 service dogs total even if we're counting the ones whose job is to stand around and look nice. How many dogs has she bred? Seriously? If this isn't a novelty I don't know what is. Where are the titles in her breeding stock? When the only letters after the dog's name is that he passed TT and was OFAed I have to wonder. I don't see one picture of breeding stock that isn't a stack photo, a dog laying down, or a dog that isn't bugging a sheep in a pen.

Listen I think it's great that they can do stuff but generation to generation they are NOT working dogs. Don't write a fairy tale that the breeding can't live up to.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Kat09Tails View Post
Sch is not the same as working either. Sch is performance. Work is work. They issue a paycheck and you'd be hard pressed to find one in a law enforcement agency or military anywhere. I'd put more on finding a dobe actually working somewhere before I'd see a white GSD doing an actual job for someone's pay. The foundation of the white GSD is showline - period... end of story. You will find them in the showring - you will find them in ribbon contests. You will not find them working or if they do it's as a novelty because no serious person or organization uses them in any kind of consistency. Don't feel too bad about it - American showline normal GSDs are there too.

Show me a breeder using their white GSDs as border patrol, a military who actually uses them, a line of working PP/police dogs, a sheep farmer who actually uses them to do anything besides worrying sheep in a round pen. Then we'll talk.
Umm.... Lewis County SAR has two on their team. One of them is worked by their training officer. She prefers lighter colored dogs working in the field and couldn't find any breeders she liked with light shepherds (her oldster that just retired was a very light silver) so she went with a white because the whites being bred now are pretty consistent.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kat09Tails View Post
Ok, I'll bite. Please show me the pedigree and pictures of a white GSD that has shown up in a litter of working line dogs sometime within the last decade. Thanks
Considering old fashioned bias toward the color and the fact that more than a few working kennels still practice the culling of litters down to the strongest 6 puppies, I'd be very surprised if many working breeders admitted to producing a white from their lines even if it did happen.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Kat09Tails View Post
40 years in the breed with 19 service dogs total even if we're counting the ones whose job is to stand around and look nice. How many dogs has she bred? Seriously? If this isn't a novelty I don't know what is. Where are the titles in her breeding stock? When the only letters after the dog's name is that he passed TT and was OFAed I have to wonder. I don't see one picture of breeding stock that isn't a stack photo, a dog laying down, or a dog that isn't bugging a sheep in a pen.

Listen I think it's great that they can do stuff but generation to generation they are NOT working dogs. Don't write a fairy tale that the breeding can't live up to.
Sorry but you are wrong. Read what I posted. I said this was just a few of the ones that work that she chose to put on her page. She can't list every single dog that has gone on to do a great service. There just is not the room or time for that.

You told me to show you some that are working because you said they can't and don;t. I proved with just one link and one breeder that she has consitantly bred working dogs to go on to work in multiple fields. So you have to find some way to degrade that because it proves you wrong.

Go ahead and keep degrading them. If you refuse to open your mind that is your choice. I know, and so do the many many people that work with these dogs on a daily bases, what they are capable of. And no amount of your degration of them will change that. They are a proven working dog. Sheena proves that to me every day. And I hear about it and see it every day from the many people I know who breed them, work them and love them.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Romy View Post
Considering old fashioned bias toward the color and the fact that more than a few working kennels still practice the culling of litters down to the strongest 6 puppies, I'd be very surprised if many working breeders admitted to producing a white from their lines even if it did happen.
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  #20  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:01 AM
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Sorry but you are wrong. Read what I posted. I said this was just a few of the ones that work that she chose to put on her page. She can't list every single dog that has gone on to do a great service. There just is not the room or time for that.
.
Are you out of your mind? Most people who produce working dogs are proud of each and everyone they produce and usually they don't have to go back to the early 80's to find dogs doing work. Usually there are pictures of the dog doing work... usually there are dogs within the pedigree who have even done the job.

19 dogs in 40 years isn't consistency. Not when you breed GSDs who should have working offspring in nearly every litter - wait... unless you're producing pets and showdogs. That would make much more sense wouldn't it?

It's not about being right or wrong it's about a fairy tale being perpetuated. Work is work- not to be confused with sport, performance, pets, and volunteer therapy dogs. When the only high profile dogs in the pedigree are coming from the pet breeder that is the Rin Tin Tin kennel you have to wonder what fairy tale is someone trying to sell you.

I don't know of a single working GSD breeder who practices puppy culling to a number anymore - working prospects are just worth too much in the current market. Just as I don't know a single person who practices color culling in GSDs - not that they couldn't exist but to be honest most people I've met who are active in working GSDs, dutchies, and mals could care less what color the dog is. All they care about is that the dog is able to do the job - doesn't break down at a young age - and isn't a big liability.

Tell ya what... for giggles why not bounce over to a working dog forum and ask them about examples of working white GSDs and breeders who produce white in their working lines?

Listen it's not about degrading anything. If your white GSDs make you happy all the more power to ya - but just because my papillon is a spaniel doesn't make it a working bird dog. Just because he can fetch doesn't make him a working bird dog. Even if he did fetch birds it doesn't make the breed - a working breed. Work generation to generation makes the dog a working breed. Having a job - a real job makes the dog a working dog.
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Last edited by Kat09Tails; 10-24-2011 at 02:52 AM.
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