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Old 10-20-2011, 09:23 PM
Michiyo-Fir Michiyo-Fir is offline
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Default Hypothetical Breeding Situation

I thought this might get more views and discussion in the general forum(instead of breeding grounds) so mods I hope this is ok.

This is all purely hypothetical but...

If a breeder has a great dog (titled in the chosen venue, sound temperament, passed all health clearances, OFA rated good, CERF'd every year, etc.) and she decides to breed him with a female that matches. The female is again, tited, health tested, OFA good.

However, in this litter of let's say 8 pups, 1 pup ends up being severely dysplastic and one being borderline. The rest are all OFA good and they do well in their chosen venue of competition as well, they're talented dogs.

What would you do?

Find different matches for these 2 dogs? Spay/neuter them both? Breed another litter and see what happens (could be due to chance or new owner's bad care for example jumping exercises too early, bad nutrition)?

What do you think is the ideal thing to do?
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:27 PM
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I think I would look at how the hips of other off spring from both dogs turned out, as well as their siblings/half siblings. If no problems showed up there, I wouldn't necessarily write off a repeat breeding.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:35 PM
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Well, statistically there's always the chance of producing a dysplastic dog, no matter how good the parents are rated. That percentage gets smaller the better the parents' hips, but it's never going to be zero.

Here's a nifty little chart based on OFA ratings of dogs with known parents: linkylink.

I'm glad these things are not within my realm of responsibility to decide I think I would likely not repeat the breeding unless it produced something either spectacular or something key to my breeding program, but I wouldn't speuter the dogs in question, either.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:40 PM
Michiyo-Fir Michiyo-Fir is offline
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Someone asked about the pedigree in another board I posted this one too.

Suppose all the full siblings of both parents are all good with 1 or 2 fairs on each side.

Suppose the grandparents are good, fair, good, good. Also there's no info about the generation before that for whatever reason.

Would that change your decision?

Edit: Thanks for the chart btw! I hadn't seen that before. It's very interesting.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:41 PM
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So much of that depends on the breed and individual dogs. There is seldom on "ideal" path to take with breeding decisions. All dogs can produce health problems, no dog is genetically normal. If we spayed or neutered every dog that ever produced anything but ideal structure, health and temperament and ever dog who had a relative with less than ideal structure, health and temperament, we wouldn't have any dogs left to breed. Breeders have to weigh the perceived risks of a breeding with the knowledge they have and balance that with the perceived benefits of a breeding with the knowledge they have.

In some breeds "only" two dysplastic puppies in a litter of 8 would actually be really good. In other breeds, two dysplastic puppies out of 8 would be pretty unacceptable. Then there is everything in between. In general, I don't know that I'd repeat the breeding but it isn't necessarily a reason to remove both dogs from the gene pool either.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
So much of that depends on the breed and individual dogs. There is seldom on "ideal" path to take with breeding decisions. All dogs can produce health problems, no dog is genetically normal. If we spayed or neutered every dog that ever produced anything but ideal structure, health and temperament and ever dog who had a relative with less than ideal structure, health and temperament, we wouldn't have any dogs left to breed. Breeders have to weigh the perceived risks of a breeding with the knowledge they have and balance that with the perceived benefits of a breeding with the knowledge they have.

In some breeds "only" two dysplastic puppies in a litter of 8 would actually be really good. In other breeds, two dysplastic puppies out of 8 would be pretty unacceptable. Then there is everything in between. In general, I don't know that I'd repeat the breeding but it isn't necessarily a reason to remove both dogs from the gene pool either.
This ^.

I'd also have to weigh how the puppies were reared. Were they given puppy appropriate exercise up to 1 year old? Or did somebody take them on 5 mile jogs starting at 3 months? What kind of nutrition did they have? Those factors have an effect as well.

That being said, I wouldn't repeat a breeding of the dogs to each other. For one, with a litter that size if you haven't got anything better than the parents to pick from to continue your line, why the heck would you repeat it? If I wanted to use a parent again I'd probably find another good match and try for an even better second litter.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
So much of that depends on the breed and individual dogs. There is seldom on "ideal" path to take with breeding decisions. All dogs can produce health problems, no dog is genetically normal. If we spayed or neutered every dog that ever produced anything but ideal structure, health and temperament and ever dog who had a relative with less than ideal structure, health and temperament, we wouldn't have any dogs left to breed. Breeders have to weigh the perceived risks of a breeding with the knowledge they have and balance that with the perceived benefits of a breeding with the knowledge they have.

In some breeds "only" two dysplastic puppies in a litter of 8 would actually be really good. In other breeds, two dysplastic puppies out of 8 would be pretty unacceptable. Then there is everything in between. In general, I don't know that I'd repeat the breeding but it isn't necessarily a reason to remove both dogs from the gene pool either.
^^ Totally agree. There is variation in all breeding, it's what keeps species from dying out and what aids in evolution (even artificial evolution like what we do with dogs). You are never going to get an entire litter that turns out perfect and if you did everyone would have perfect dogs by now. It's what happens to the sub-par dogs that matters (IE culling via speutering).
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:42 AM
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Hard call.... I'd look at the rest of the health and temp before I considered one way or another.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post

That being said, I wouldn't repeat a breeding of the dogs to each other. For one, with a litter that size if you haven't got anything better than the parents to pick from to continue your line, why the heck would you repeat it? If I wanted to use a parent again I'd probably find another good match and try for an even better second litter.
Exactly how I was thinking ....
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
That being said, I wouldn't repeat a breeding of the dogs to each other. For one, with a litter that size if you haven't got anything better than the parents to pick from to continue your line, why the heck would you repeat it? If I wanted to use a parent again I'd probably find another good match and try for an even better second litter.
There are lots of reasons to repeat a breeding or why a breeder could end up not having a puppy from a particular litter when everything is said and done. With most litters of 8 puppies breeder picks one to raise and sells the rest. One puppy becomes severely HD - most breeders would replace that puppy - odds are with the puppy they kept if they don't breed often.

Of course assuming the breeder got to keep what they wanted out of that litter and that puppy turns out to be exactly what they needed then you're right. Odds are they won't need to repeat that crossing but I leave that judgement up to the breeder and their goals so long as they can explain why they crossed that particular bitch to that particular dog and on the plus side for the buyer you will have a pretty good idea of what the range is for your pup in temperament and type. Sometimes repeat breedings are a great idea especially in working dogs.
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