Acceptable Breeding Practice

[puppydog]

Originally Posted by Equinox

Did someone say Riley puppies?!?

Uh-oh. This is bad for my Papillon fever

IF Riley turns out as well as we hope and passes all her health testing. She already has a CC point and is doing super well in agility, so I don't forsee any problems. She was checked for luxating patella about a month ago and was clear and will be check again at 2. She will also DRA test done at 2.

[Sit Stay]

This is totally OT but Uniquity, do you know Bev (Jubilee Jewels English Shepherds)? I went on your website, and recognized your name I think from Facebook - I must have seen you on her list of friends and drooled over your dog! I love Groenendaels (:

[UniquityBelgians]

Originally Posted by Sit Stay

This is totally OT but Uniquity, do you know Bev (Jubilee Jewels English Shepherds)? I went on your website, and recognized your name I think from Facebook - I must have seen you on her list of friends and drooled over your dog! I love Groenendaels (:

Yes I do know Bev! Small world!!! Thanks for the compliments about my dog!

[milos_mommy]

Without reading all the replies:

1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
It totally depends. If all the health testing is done, the bitch is having a good life, and the breeder is putting her care first and foremost, and it just so happens they can get 5 litters, then that's fine, but it also seems like it wouldn't be the usual case.
2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years
again, if all the dogs are health tested, properly cared for, and the person is pretty much breeding as a full-time job, I don't see the problem. Especially for a rarer breed...however it comes to question if the breeder could reliably take back all the puppies who don't "work out" their their families, and so on. Generally if I saw a breeder doing this, it would turn me off.
3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)
again, this is debatable. If everything else the breeder does is responsible, and the dog's health and happiness isn't compromised, it's not a huge deal. Especially if the dog only ever has two litters, and doesn't spend most of it's life pregnant.
4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches
something else situation....I know some dogs that at 7 are in the prime of their life. If they're health tested, the vet gives the ok, and they're a dog with a life expectancy of 15 + years, I don't see why not. Breeding an 8 year old giant breed or a dog that's clearly starting to slow down, IMO, is not acceptable.

Basically, I think it's mostly situational. I think it's way less acceptable for people to breed dogs that aren't health tested, titled in SOMETHING (even if it's just obedience or therapy work), have poor temperaments, or to breed and take no responsibility for puppies in the future. I'd go to a breeder that had a contract saying they would always take a puppy back if they bred back-to-back litters before I went to a breeder missing health tests that did everything by the books, and so on.

[Lizmo]

Originally Posted by RD

1.) 5 litters out of the same bitch would be excessive, imo.
2.) 5-6 litters a year, spaced out, would pretty much ensure that the breeder always had puppies around. I couldn't personally do it, but if a breeder can handle it and each litter is well thought-out, I don't see a problem with this.
3.) What Sael said about back-to-back heats. I, too, see this done frequently, with a spay following the second litter.
4.) In long-lived breeds, 7-8 year old bitches are (or IMO should be) still in their prime. An 8 year old Dane is a senior dog, but an 8 year old border collie is likely to be every bit as active and healthy as a 4 year old border collie. In my breed of choice, I wouldn't WANT to buy a dog out of a line with old, frail dogs under the age of 10.

I'm just going to quote RD, since my opinion is exactly the same. lol

[SpringerLover]

1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
I think that is excessive. Reason: I buy from people who "do things" with their dogs. You can't be active in multiple sports and still have a bitch whelp five litters before she's ancient. It's just simply not possible. Most people I train and compete with are lucky to get 3 litters. I really like the number 3.

2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years
Once again, looking for performance/sport/active dogs. No way to have time off from competing and training to adequately whelp and raise 5-6 litters in a single year. Caveat: "my" toller breeders co-own a great number of dogs. Their name is on multiple litters each year. Not necessarily dogs living with them.

3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)
I could see breeding one, waiting to see how puppies turn out, then (and only then) doing a back to back breeding for litters 2 & 3.

4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches
I see no problem with this if the bitch is physically sound.

[Romy]

Originally Posted by milos_mommy

4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches
something else situation....I know some dogs that at 7 are in the prime of their life. If they're health tested, the vet gives the ok, and they're a dog with a life expectancy of 15 + years, I don't see why not. Breeding an 8 year old giant breed or a dog that's clearly starting to slow down, IMO, is not acceptable.

See, for me I'd be looking more for a breeder who waited until their giant breed female was "senior" (7+) before breeding her. Many health problems in giant breeds (osteosarcoma, bloat, for example) tend to show up before 5 years of age if the dog has a genetic tendency toward them. If you breed her at 3 and 5, then she gets osteo at 7... you've just passed a tendency for bone cancer to over 20 puppies. And at 7, she might already have grandpuppies from her first litter. If two daughters were bred, that could be an additional 20. If her sons were bred, who knows how many females they could be used on before the problem is detected. Kaia's grandam was 9 when she was bred for her first and only litter, then went on to live for several more long healthy years. Her sire wasn't bred until he was older than 5 even though he was a nationally ranked male and she could have been making extra stud $$ off him.

If you wait until 7 or 8 and she's still in great condition and doing fine, you're passing on both health AND longevity. If you wait until the sire is elderly or dead (doing a semen collection when he's young and virile) you can select sires with long lives that die of natural old age rather than disease. Sure, it might mean you only get one, maybe two litters out of her instead of more, but if those are issues in your breed that's what's best for the breed. And most giant breeds (mastiffs, borzoi, deerhounds, etc.) struggle with issues like those. Borzois less than the others, partly because more than a few put off breeding until their dogs are older.

I know of one breeder who had a large litter deerhounds. When they hit 7 years old, every single one of those puppies died of osteosarcoma within months of each other. I have no idea if any of them were bred, but it's a good reason to wait.

[Sit Stay]

Originally Posted by UniquityBelgians

Yes I do know Bev! Small world!!! Thanks for the compliments about my dog!

You're very welcome - they're a breed I've never met in real life but I would absolutely love to.

Small world is right! I just love Bev's dogs - don't know her IRL but she seems like a very nice lady as well. Quinn's dam was supposed to be bred to Cole this spring but unfortunately timing wasn't right with Bev's surgery.

[MaryAndDobes]

Originally Posted by Romy

See, for me I'd be looking more for a breeder who waited until their giant breed female was "senior" (7+) before breeding her. Many health problems in giant breeds (osteosarcoma, bloat, for example) tend to show up before 5 years of age if the dog has a genetic tendency toward them.

In theory, I agree with you. But with bitches of larger breeds, you're probably going to run into fertility issues if you wait this long. Plus you risk her getting pyometra every time she goes through a season waiting to get to breed her.

I personally try to wait to breed my Doberman females until they are 4 or so because I figure it just gives them more time to show me a problem so they can be removed from the gene pool. I also try to select older stud dogs. I'm trying to build pedigrees that provide one with 25 years or more of info in 5 generations, and by info I mean longevity information and cause of death knowledge.

However, I do see some fertility issues and litter size issues by waiting with the bitches. I've had larger litters with 3 year olds, and small litters (1 or 2 puppies) with bitches over 4 or 5.

[YodelDogs]

Originally Posted by Michiyo-Fir

1. Breed a bitch up to 5 times
2. Breed 5-6 litters in some years
3. Breed back to back heats (not all time time, usually just 2 litters on back to back heats, I've never seen 3)
4. Breed 7-8 yr old bitches

My answers depend heavily on what breed is being questioned.

1 and 2. A toy breed may only produce 2-3 puppies per litter so 5 litters might mean a grand total of 10-15 puppies. I have no problem with that. A giant breed may produce 10 or more puppies per litter which ends up being 50+ puppies. I do have a problem with this. That many puppies over a female's lifetime is seriously detrimental and there is no reason to put her through all that.

3. Depends on how big the litters are, how far apart her seasons are, and her overall health. I have Basenjis. The girls come in season once a year and litter size is 4-5 puppies. We have no problem breeding an outstanding, healthy female for 3 years in a row. I seriously doubt that I would breed a female that came into season only 4 months after weaning a large litter. A healthy girl can probably handle it but it would wear her down.

4. I would not breed any breed at that age for a first litter but if the female has whelped before and isn't a very large or giant breed then I have no problem with it.