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Old 12-29-2010, 11:25 AM
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skittledoo skittledoo is online now
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Default Help with teaching a solid bow and help with a stand

Bamm is driving me nuts this morning, but I think it might be a communication error between us today.

Anyways, I'm working on trying to teach him a bow. Anytime I see him do a bow naturally I give him a lot of praise to encourage him to do that behavior more... but when we're actually working on teaching it, it's driving me nuts. I'll have him standing and I'll hold the treat down low and just ahead of his front legs so he'll bow as he reaches for the treat. That part he's getting and I'm clicking the instant he hits the bow. I can't seem to get him to hold it though. After he got the drop into a bow part down I decided to try and get him to hold it a little longer by waiting a little longer to click... I wasn't even waiting more than a second or two longer to click, but by then he's already dropped his back legs down so he's laying down. It's like he's not understanding that the bow and lying down are two separate things and I don't want him to think that the act of bowing and finishing with a lie down is the behavior I want when it's not what I want... he's doing it in one big move if that makes sense and I'm worried he might be confused and thinking I want him to actually lay down even though I'm only clicking when he hits the bow part. I'm probably doing something wrong here, which is why I'm asking for a little help.

Also... we've been working on a "stand" since yesterday. He's got the standing up part right, but the problem is he stands up and moves forward towards me at the same time and as of today he thinks he needs to bump my crotch with his nose at the same time which of course is not at all what I want. He had stand perfectly yesterday and it's like today his brain is all mushy and he thinks I'm asking for something else... I want him to learn to stand up in place from either a lie down or sitting position. I'm trying to click as soon as he is in standing position, but by then he's already in the act of moving forward so I need to take it back a notch
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:34 AM
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No help with the stand part, but as far as getting him to hold the bow, can you put either your hand under his tummy or even your foot or something to kind of guide him from not fully lying down, hold it for just a few more seconds, and then try it without the physical reminder?
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:38 AM
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Frodo was having similar issues, so what I did was to hold his waist up while lowering his front half into the bow and just feeding feeding feeding in that position. Normally I try not to manipulate while training, I don't think it helps most of the time, but it did help with this. Maybe just connecting "when my body feels like this, I get treats" type of thing.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skittledoo View Post
I wasn't even waiting more than a second or two longer to click, but by then he's already dropped his back legs down so he's laying down.
A second or two might be too long. Try for a half second. Try to get two C/Ts into one second while he's still in a bow. And after C/Ting for the bow position, see if you can get him to get up right away without him finishing the down, so he can realize you don't want the hind end dropping.

Quote:
Also... we've been working on a "stand" since yesterday. He's got the standing up part right, but the problem is he stands up and moves forward towards me at the same time
I train stand by being right next to them so there's no need for them to move forward toward me. I also do a little lifting into a stand from underneath and I want them to learn to move their back legs up and backward while their front legs stay in place, which also helps prevent forward movement. Stand is a very difficult one for most dogs and takes a lot of repetition and not moving away from them too soon.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:14 PM
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Thanks so much for the helpful advice... usually most things are pretty easy to teach him. He's a quick learner... but these are two that have just been frustrating... and rollover... my last dog learned rollover really quickly, but Bamm wont offer it at all and I don't want to manipulate him into doing it so that's been a hard one to try and get since I usually like for him to offer most of the behaviors I teach and I just show him which behaviors I want so he'll do them again and again and then eventually put a cue to it
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:10 PM
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i lure into their chest if that makes sense, so they kick their back legs back to stand, not forward. I'll see if I can get a video cause i'm teaching a dog the stand now and you can see the early stuff so you can know how it get's to the "end".
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
i lure into their chest if that makes sense, so they kick their back legs back to stand, not forward. I'll see if I can get a video cause i'm teaching a dog the stand now and you can see the early stuff so you can know how it get's to the "end".
This!

The best stand you can get is a fold up/down stand... in Obedience and Rallyo, they deduct points for moving forward in a stand, so this is the best way to teach it. I start by teaching stand from a down, it's much easier to get a stand without going forward than it is from a sit. It does make it much easier if you teach it on your left side rather than in front of you.

I taught Fozzie to hold a bow to photograph it. Really, the only thing that worked for him was getting him to bow, gently holding him in the position, telling him to "stay", and click/treating repeatedly and building the duration.
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