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  #21  
Old 03-20-2010, 03:38 PM
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Thanks, Ado.

I don't use the word "stay" until my stays have duration, distance, and distraction. Sit means sit, down means down. If I say sit and my dog sits I can withhold the rewards for a few seconds. When I give the reward, as long as the dog stays put, I can quickly reward again. It doesn't take long for the dog to realize that until they get the "Ok" it's beneficial to stay in the same position.

When I get past the association part of teaching the command I don't use the clicker. If my dog can sit on the command he doesn't need to be clicked. At that point, if I'm working with a high distraction level, I usually switch to the word "yes" followed by the reward. To me that cues the dog that we are no longer shaping the behavior, but he/she still has the oppoerunity to be rewarded for it.
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  #22  
Old 03-20-2010, 03:51 PM
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I NEVER charge the clicker. Ever. I teach a hand touch (targeting) first. I have always seen the CER (conditioned emotional response) in about ten clicks (longer with a marker word)...when I was CT the monitor here at work I saw it in 5 clicks, and thats an animal that is considered "stupid". The animals get it quickly. I honestly cringe when I see books that say "get 80 treats and just sit there and load the clicker" to me, thats a waste of time, kinda boring (for both) and you can quickly teach the dog that sitting and staring at you is the only thing that gets a treat and have a dog that takes longer to start making up behaviors JMHO.


one thing about the ingored click...if you dog is to distracted, they will ignore the click. I would start in a boring boring boring room inside and see what your success is like...if it is still low, I vote for a better treat/reward like the others mentioned.


I don't click for stays (duration wise) I feed and feed and feed then release with an "ok" and put my hand out for the dog to target/touch...when they get to my hand I then click and reward
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  #23  
Old 03-20-2010, 03:53 PM
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I think another part we are all forgetting (unless I missed it) is a done cue. I have had the worse time training when I have forgetting it But the best success when saying done before the dog moves at the start of learning new behaviours.

Another note: When first teaching long stays (usually with distance as well), I will reward during the stay on a variable time line, BUT I must not forget to give the stay cue (hand cue) again after each and every time I mark it and reward. Make sense???

Example:

Dog is holding the down stay, I move away/turn my back, mark with a Yes/C, go back and reward, say Good Stay! Give hand cue to stay and move away again etc for different durations.
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  #24  
Old 03-20-2010, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
Another note: When first teaching long stays (usually with distance as well), I will reward during the stay on a variable time line, BUT I must not forget to give the stay cue (hand cue) again after each and every time I mark it and reward. Make sense???

Example:

Dog is holding the down stay, I move away/turn my back, mark with a Yes/C, go back and reward, say Good Stay! Give hand cue to stay and move away again etc for different durations.
I'll reward during the stay as well, but without the click/yes. I'll go back, reward, maybe a quiet "good" depending on the dog, remind him with another stay command, and leave him again. My understanding is that the click ends the behavior, which means the click is a release cue. If I click in the middle of a stay and then recommand it, technically it's two stays without a break in between.
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  #25  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
I'll reward during the stay as well, but without the click/yes. I'll go back, reward, maybe a quiet "good" depending on the dog, remind him with another stay command, and leave him again. My understanding is that the click ends the behavior, which means the click is a release cue. If I click in the middle of a stay and then recommand it, technically it's two stays without a break in between.
Cp, I would agree with that, certainly wouldn't disagree lol. I guess my point was is when first training longer stays I find that I get a higher success rate doing it this way. By then I am also only marking it with a Yes and not clicking which I may have stated which wasn't right. I am also not close to the dog either but working on stays that are several feet - 20 ft+.

I have come to realize that I am not making much sense!!!!
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  #26  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
I have come to realize that I am not making much sense!!!!


Thanks for the reply. I understand now.
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  #27  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
I'll reward during the stay as well, but without the click/yes. I'll go back, reward, maybe a quiet "good" depending on the dog, remind him with another stay command, and leave him again.
THis is how I teach stays too. No clicking.

I think it's kind of a catch phrase in clicker training to say that "the click ends the behavior." I only believe that to an extent. To me, the click is for marking a behavior, an action. When I teach sit, I click just before the dog's butt hits the ground; I'm clicking the action of the sit. In fact, with most behaviors I click, I click just before the dog completes it. With stay, though, there IS no action, no real behavior to click. Kathy Sdao says "If a dead dog can do it, you don't need to click it." Certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't reward it, not at all, just don't need to click it.

That said, I've seen some very impressive clicker trainers clicking stays the way adojrts described, and it works for them. I've also seen some very impressive clicker trainers clicking the end of the stay - when the click, the dog knows the stay is over so they get up to get their treat - and it works for them. But for me, I can't wrap my head around that, so I'll continue to do it without clicking; it works for me, my coworkers, our clients, etc.
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  #28  
Old 03-20-2010, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post


Thanks for the reply. I understand now.
Really? Wow, I am impressed (you not me ) because I just went back and reread everything I wrote.......beside doing a very poor job of making myself understood.....my grammar sucked too!!!!

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  #29  
Old 03-20-2010, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lizzybeth727 View Post
I think it's kind of a catch phrase in clicker training to say that "the click ends the behavior." I only believe that to an extent. To me, the click is for marking a behavior, an action.
For me, to use the clicker as ending the behavior works better. I couldn't get any results until I started seeing it as such. And yes, I'll use it to mark action -- if the dog is sitting, I try to get the click in there as he's dropping his butt, just before it hits the ground...thing is, that they tend to not continue to sit as they look for their reward...

Eventually I decided that if the click ends the behavior, and if I click before their butt hits the floor, then there's no reason why they need to continue in that direction. And by allowing that, I've gotten better and faster sits. Is it correct? I have absolutely no idea. Would it work with normal dogs? I don't know. Am I suggesting it's how other should do it? Not at all. I'm a noob at clicker stuff, and am all ears as to why it's wrong.

So for stays, I do C/T at the end of the stay...sometimes. But other times I just use a release word (it seems a bit redundant to use a C/T and a "free") or go straight into a new exercise. It really depends on the dog and what we're working on and how ramped up I want to get them. The C/T does release them, but doesn't ramp them up the way a "free" does.
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  #30  
Old 03-20-2010, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
Is it correct? I have absolutely no idea. Would it work with normal dogs? I don't know. Am I suggesting it's how other should do it? Not at all. I'm a noob at clicker stuff, and am all ears as to why it's wrong.
It's not wrong, that is one point I want to make. Does a click have to mean that a treat is coming? No. Does a click have to mean that the dog did the correct behavior? No. The click means whatever you teach the dog that it means. I teach one thing, you teach another. Neither is wrong; you just have to be consistent with the dog.

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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
The C/T does release them, but doesn't ramp them up the way a "free" does.
Right, it doesn't ramp them up.... that's how I can click a dog for the action of sitting, and expect them to eventually be able to remain in that position while I deliver the treat and until I release them. But again, they won't naturally stay in position while getting the treat, that's something they have to learn to do.... But of course it doesn't take long.
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