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  #31  
Old 09-06-2009, 01:21 PM
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  #32  
Old 09-06-2009, 01:56 PM
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GSD's are not solely a "herder" anymore. They have been manipulated to be a well rounded working dog, capable of almost any task. They may not be the best at any given job but they are one of the most well rounded dog breeds. Breeders of working line dogs have been insitlling a genetic full grip. So how is it a dog that never seen a sleeve before never had any type of PP training can come out and naturally on the first bit, the sleeve is so far back he's practically gagging?? Alot of GSD's cant herd (or need to be "reminded")sheep anymore because of their level of drives.

A full grip is SOOOO important in PP and Sch that it HAS become genetic it is reinforced but not taught. But I think the point we are disagreeing on is the actual grip and what drive it is steming from. GSD's do have a genetic full mouth grip for PREY drive, but not defense. Is that what you meant? If so I totally agree.


I totally agree with the dangers a dog that doesnt re grip faces. I honestly dont give two sh!ts where my dog bites in a real situation but in all honesty I dont want my dog to come in contact with that threat at all. A big scary show is all I need. I dont care how big a dog is or how much power they have. A human being is capable of anything, and I strongly believe that. Dont put ANYTHING past a person.

There are so many different types of GSD's that I can gurantee you can find ANY type of dog you want within the breed. Couch potatoes, Golden in GSD body, highly prey driven dogs, suspicious dogs with very low thresholds, civil dogs who look specifically at the man and nothing more (the dog I like), overly confident dogs who wont so much as bark if someone came in uninvited, dogs that enjoy a good fight with man ect.

Like I said a more well known guard dog will keep people away moreso than a LGD, they are big yes, but to an idiot they look harmless and docile. I rather have a "police dog" that keeps people away than have a dog that makes the bad guy take a 50/50 chance on if attacking this person with that dog is really worth it.

Also LGD are NOT dogs you just go out and buy. Without a proper upbringing just by their sheer size can be devestating. I would NEVER want to be on the business end of one of the well adjusted ones. Can you imagine an unsure one? Or one not properly socialized or understood?

Remember this thread is open to be viewed by just about anyone. I would hate to give the wrong idea to the worng person who thinks they want an LGD. In reality most people do not need a dog like this and even more people cannot properly raise/train a LGD. People screw up GSD's, Rotties, Pit Bulls ect. Can you imagine how they can screw up a CO or CAS. They are definately breeds that can feed into the macho ego trip.

Last edited by GSDlover_4ever; 09-06-2009 at 02:10 PM.
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  #33  
Old 09-06-2009, 02:33 PM
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planet molosser planet molosser is offline
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Look I am one of those people that go bu histories and standards.
THE GSD is a all purpose one of the BESt if not the BEST family dogs in the WORLD.
That dont make them natural guaridans.
And Yes I do understand everyone reads this which is why i corrected inaccurate information..

SInce I am the president of the US CAS CLub , have the breed 13 years and have been active in rescue for 30 yrs YES CAS can get screwed up- NO different that a Saint or a Newfie FEARFULL undersocialized HUGE dogs can be created by any idiot.

CAS are different than CO. If u must lump or compare than lump with ASD Akbask Kangal that is same dna breed group. CO is a different dna group and backgroud.

CAS are not on the 1st breed ban in any country even Germany who started it.
Yet many breeds that are loved and owned by many here are .
So lets stop trying to put all LGDS inc Great Pry or CAS into this bad ass area.
iF CAS are that hard to own inyour mind to own than a FILA would be out of the question for 99.0 percent of the people here. Last I checked more than a good amount of good people here own FIla. dont make them the next GSD - but does downplay this
imagine this imagine that thing dont it.

If people breed for exceptions to the rule it dont help the breed.
GSDS are not natural born guardians and are trained thru professionals to do what we see as PP work . they work in different drives which makes them one of the most trainable dogs in the world next to teh border collie.

LGDS have little prey drive which makes them safer as LGDS vs herding dogs.
They naturally protect but are not easily trainable for multi tasks.
They are specialists as guardians period.

As I said I have a CGC TDI TT Protection tested -Multi Champion Therapy dog DONT MAKE THE BREED a Therapy dog..

IF someone attempts to breed for the exceptions to the rule than that is where accidents happen.
Being honest is best way to talk dogs and I dont put my LOVE for my dogs mixed in with my ego I thinking they are the best at everything- they are NOT.
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  #34  
Old 09-06-2009, 02:41 PM
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Understanding drives.
Quoted from Don Yarnall LAPD retired police dog trainer @1 breed GSD

Understanding what mind set dogs have based in inhertance of the temperament can help people if confronted .

. 3 Drives prey, Defense and Fight

1. During a Bark & Hold situation If the dog is in Prey he is in effect saying "Run so I can bite you"

2. If he is in defense he is saying "Stay away from me or I will bite you"

3. If he is in fight, he is saying "Don't Move I will bite you"

#2 Is the Best way to describe the temperament of the Central Asian Shepherd. They apply due force according to the threat.
They do NOT wish to engage but will if the threat does NOT leave they will engage. They rarely give chase once the threat leaves the area. Thus making them an effective Flock guardian.

EX CAS wont bark and hold someone waiting for them to run to bite.
If he person refuses to leave the area and is a threat they do NOT bark,
They growl posture body check bite release.

IF a GSD is confronting a bad guy he may hold that bad guy in that one spot and you can come home to the guy with hands up saying pls call the dog off. Because why? he did NOT MOVE.
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  #35  
Old 09-06-2009, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Miakoda View Post
Planet Molosser, can I tell you how much I love and enjoy your posts? You and Renee are two of the people that have truly opened my eyes to guardian breeds and really instilled in me a deep respect for them. I love reading and learning about these dogs and I would LOVE to meet soem such as yours one day. Maybe if I am lucky in life...........


(btw....just where IS my Kharma pup? "Anarchy Drools" is waiting for me...I know it!" )
Ren (OC) is trying to help me locate a suitable stud for the line I want to found - No show dogs here I need to get this done by her next heat. She's just finishing this one.
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  #36  
Old 09-06-2009, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Renee750il View Post
Ren (OC) is trying to help me locate a suitable stud for the line I want to found - No show dogs here I need to get this done by her next heat. She's just finishing this one.
LOL. If there's one thing that always makes me smile, it is the thought of a mini-Jazz looking up at me with all those wrinkles and floppy ears after he just destroyed my stuffed animal because he was protecting the family.

And I still haven't found a better name than Anarchy Drools. Hell, my mom thinks your slogan of "Kharma's a bitch" is an absolute riot!
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  #37  
Old 09-06-2009, 03:35 PM
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I JUST said that GSD's are very rarely the best at anything they do. There will always be a breed that specializes in a specific job and will blow the GSD out of the water. They are however one of the most well rounded working dogs, being able to complete almost any working task. Again probably wont do the best compared to breeds that are solely bred. So dont give me that ego BS.

Tell me, what is so wrong with having a dog hold the intruder at bay? Why MUST the dog bite in order to protect? In this world where you get sued for dog bites and can have your dog euthanized why is it so important that your dog bite. And to bite and release and retreat!!! If a dog MUST bite someone it better be to hold them until I get my gun and finish the job. I would NEVER want to let that person go. Either the police is coming to pick him up or he's done. Handcuffs or bodybag if someone really attacked you. I would want things to be COMPLETELY clear if things were to go wrong, and you cannot gurantee that if the bad guy gets away. The stories they can come up with. I would not allow ANYONE to threaten my lifestyle (including my dogs). I would want the police to have a CLEAR image of what really happened. And that simply cannot happen if the person is allowed to run off.

If a GSD didnt have any instict to protect it would not be used as a protection dog. You cannot train what is not there. Just because a GSD works completely different from a LGD does not mean they are completely useless. Some dogs prefer to hold at bay others prefer to bite first (and that could be found within one breed). In either sense both dogs are protecting just have a different style. I had a dog that would bite any threat, no questions asked. HUGE liability. Just not my style.

#2 Is the worst type of protection dog you can have (or at least with the herding breeds, dont know about yours). The protection is steming from fear and uncertainty. Can be very stressful for the dog.

#2 and #3 can both be used as portection. Just #3 has the confidence that once he enters the fight he is fully comitted and will not stop until he defeats his opponent (or called off).

Its like a street fighter looking for a fight just to get the adrenaline flowing and to feel the rush vs someone who was attacked but fights back with everything they have. The latter person is probably freaking out inside but fights because if they dont they know they could possible die. Like I said fear is a huge motivator

99.9% of people should never own a Fila BTW. If you can argue with that statement, then I have nothing more to say.

Just wanted to add I am not attacking you or your dogs. Just throwing out my ideas on protection. But then again i feel any dog with a strong bond to its pack (you) will defend their pack to the best of their abilities (on a united front, where the entire pack is fighting to defend, rarely will a dog fight alone). Just some dogs are better equipped to deal with stress and pressure and I feel a good GSD is one of them.
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  #38  
Old 09-06-2009, 04:21 PM
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i just had this same discussion from the other direction. some guy was like the GSD/mal are the most awesome can beat anything and craps tiffany cufflinks. the GSD is a good well rounded breed that can be a very capable guardian. molossers can be very capable guardians. arguing over which is better or more natural is a waste of time even more so if one person is arguing and the other not so much.
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  #39  
Old 09-06-2009, 04:31 PM
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Goldens won't attack , but they sure do warn , and that's all I care about !
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  #40  
Old 09-06-2009, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
i just had this same discussion from the other direction. some guy was like the GSD/mal are the most awesome can beat anything and craps tiffany cufflinks. the GSD is a good well rounded breed that can be a very capable guardian. molossers can be very capable guardians. arguing over which is better or more natural is a waste of time even more so if one person is arguing and the other not so much.
I wish THAT was something you could teach!!
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