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  #31  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelSilverman View Post
Thank you for explaining that... I really appreciate it. I was going round in circles with these guys...
you're going around in circles bc you have openly told people they are wrong. When we ask you... you answer in circles. If you want to stop doing that... then give a straight answer.

If your answer is what kayla described than that is not "clicker training" and I rest with my post in your intro of "if you don't use that method, then please do no correct people on how to use it."

If you want to discuss another method "using a clicker as communication only and NOT a reward marker" we would be happy to hear and learn about it.
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  #32  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelSilverman View Post
But Elegy, you're not lying to her. I am not telling you to change what you are doing. If it works and your dog is happy don't change it.

I will tell you that the more you can offer your dog after you click, the more interesting and fun training becomes. The reason for this is you have so much more to offer.
how is it not lying to a dog to teach them that click = reward and then not reward them?

i like to think i offer my dogs a reasonable number of different rewards based on what they find rewarding, but that has nothing to do with the fact that i think it's important to reward the dog after every click, no matter what reward i use (from food to tug to chase to "go sniff" to whatever). and yes, i use a varied reward schedule, but once again, if i'm not going to reward that behavior, i don't click it. i can tell my dogs they've done the right thing in other ways.

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Here is an example. It's like you getting paid the same amount very Friday. After a while it would get boring, but if every once in a while you got a little more one week would that make it interesting? The same thing applies to your dog. I like using tactile rewards, treats, toys, and every once in a while try nothing.
like somebody else said, if my paycheck was a big fat zero, you can be sure i'd be out the door. that's breaking the bargain.

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I always use Agility Trainers as a great example. They click and rarely feed, and look at the attitude.
just because they don't use food doesn't mean they're not rewarding the dog for every click. it's not a question of what reward you use- that's a whole separate topic.
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  #33  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:35 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
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Ok... as I mentioned, in the first post the clicker is a message and communication that what the animal did was correct. I see what you are saying in that second post. What it should say is that it signifies that what the animal did was correct . It says "that the reward is coming". My bad.. It is a form of communication.
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  #34  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpaeanx View Post
you're going around in circles bc you have openly told people they are wrong. When we ask you... you answer in circles. If you want to stop doing that... then give a straight answer.

If your answer is what kayla described than that is not "clicker training" and I rest with my post in your intro of "if you don't use that method, then please do no correct people on how to use it."

If you want to discuss another method "using a clicker as communication only and NOT a reward marker" we would be happy to hear and learn about it.
I agree, as I have never heard of the way you describe using a clicker, please do expand. Also In your intro thread you mention only using clicker training about 5% of the time with dogs, just curious what you use 95% of the time. I too dont have the Animal Planet so id be interested to hear as well.

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  #35  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:37 PM
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I think that what is happening here is that Joels understanding of the use of the clicker is different than what the science prescribes.

Just because you have a clicker in your hand and you make the clicking sound to communicate to an animal during training...does not mean that you are clicker training. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, there is a science behind 'clicker/whistle/MARKER' training and that is what we are TRYING to get to the bottom of.

This clicker in his case is being used as a sound to signify that they animal has done the right thing but is not paired with a PREDICTABLE reward (of any kind...toy, treat, play). This is what I'm getting from all but a select few of his most recent posts.

So, the clicker is NOT being used by Joel as a REWARD MARKER.

Is that correct?
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  #36  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:39 PM
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that's my understanding of his later posts.... after we grilled him....

ETA: which is why I'm glad this was taken out of 101. and maybe someone should post the link of this in 101... I would hate some lurkers to read that and think it was the same method... as we have now found out it's not.
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  #37  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:39 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
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If that works for you, great
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  #38  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:40 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
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Exactly!!
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  #39  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelSilverman View Post
If that works for you, great
are you serious? I don't even know how to respond to this! You claim the things we do are wrong. When we figure out that you are actually talking about a COMPETLEY DIFFERENT type of training after constantly asking you pretty much the same question THIS is your answer?


*mods I'm sorry if I come across as snippy... but COME ON!
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  #40  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:44 PM
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Nope, you're spot on xpaeanx. That was not the most informative answer and I too expected a bit more from someone who came into the forum with his resume out front.
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