Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Training Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:10 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 64
Default

But Elegy, you're not lying to her. I am not telling you to change what you are doing. If it works and your dog is happy don't change it.

I will tell you that the more you can offer your dog after you click, the more interesting and fun training becomes. The reason for this is you have so much more to offer.

Here is an example. It's like you getting paid the same amount very Friday. After a while it would get boring, but if every once in a while you got a little more one week would that make it interesting? The same thing applies to your dog. I like using tactile rewards, treats, toys, and every once in a while try nothing.

I always use Agility Trainers as a great example. They click and rarely feed, and look at the attitude.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:14 PM
xpaeanx's Avatar
xpaeanx xpaeanx is offline
<----Thanks Allie
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,772
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSilverman View Post
But Elegy, you're not lying to her. I am not telling you to change what you are doing. If it works and your dog is happy don't change it.

I will tell you that the more you can offer your dog after you click, the more interesting and fun training becomes. The reason for this is you have so much more to offer.

Here is an example. It's like you getting paid the same amount very Friday. After a while it would get boring, but if every once in a while you got a little more one week would that make it interesting? The same thing applies to your dog. I like using tactile rewards, treats, toys, and every once in a while try nothing.

I always use Agility Trainers as a great example. They click and rarely feed, and look at the attitude.

If I opend my paycheck on friday and there was nothing in there you can bet I would not show up to work on Monday... so maybe you should pick a different example. I do get bonuses at work depending on production... but I ALWAYS get a paycheck.

I would stop using the general "agility trainers" on this forum and start using names. there are MANY agility trainers on here, and some have already openly disagreed with you.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:16 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 64
Default

OK.. as I said there.... the click is a sound that tells the animal he did the behavior correctly. It is a communication to the animal, and nothing else. That is what is written on the post you just put there, and also what I put on my last post.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:18 PM
dr2little's Avatar
dr2little dr2little is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,402
Default

That is completely the opposite of what you've been argueing from the get go.

You actually blatently called me 'wrong' ....I'm so confused.

I think that you need to go back and read your own posts Joel. Members who are not clicker savvy will, and I know that if I'm confused as to your understanding of a reward marker, they certainly will be.
__________________


I LOVE my new siggy Baxter'smybaby, THANK YOU SO MUCH....you're the BEST!!!!!!!

http://www.diamondintheruffcalgary.com/
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:18 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 64
Default

xpaeanx,

It just seems like I can't say anything to make you happy...
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:20 PM
dr2little's Avatar
dr2little dr2little is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xpaeanx View Post
if i opend my paycheck on friday and there was nothing in there you can bet i would not show up to work on monday... So maybe you should pick a different example. I do get bonuses at work depending on production... But i always get a paycheck.

i would stop using the general "agility trainers" on this forum and start using names. There are many agility trainers on here, and some have already openly disagreed with you.
LOVE IT!!
__________________


I LOVE my new siggy Baxter'smybaby, THANK YOU SO MUCH....you're the BEST!!!!!!!

http://www.diamondintheruffcalgary.com/
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:20 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 64
Default

You are using a term .. reward marker.. I use clicker.... Is that where the communication problem is coming from?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:24 PM
Kayla's Avatar
Kayla Kayla is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Northern Alberta
Posts: 1,397
Default

I think we are using clicker training for two different things Joel. You use the clicker for communication only- thats great, and if it works for you fantastic. However when most members on this board refer to clicker training we are refering to the style of training using the clicker as a classically conditioned reward marker. In order to maintain this classical condition we always reward after we mark. Like you, I only use the clicker initially to start behaviours off, to get through the shaping process, and add a cue, from there its VRI ( varibale reinforcement schedule) all the way. When I use a variable schedule reinforcement with the clicker I simply change when I click, but never interfere with the strong classically conditioned relationship of clicker and treat.

Im not saying your way of using the clicker doesnt work- I would have no Idea as I've never trained that way, so dont take this as me bashing you or telling you how to use a clicker, but I wanted to clarify the fundamental differences I see between the way you describe the way you train with a clicker and how I do.

However I do know that there is a huge amount of studying being done on operant conditioning at the North Texas University, it will be interesting to see what they come out with in the future.

Best Regards,
Kayla
__________________
<3's March because it's Epilepsy Awareness Month

“Violence begins where knowledge ends.” –Abraham Lincoln
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:25 PM
xpaeanx's Avatar
xpaeanx xpaeanx is offline
<----Thanks Allie
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,772
Default

first off: you are not here to "make me happy" you are here to "educate me." I am your audience. I am your general public. If I have questions, you should be able to answer them. You should be able to back up your methods. That is all I am asking you to do.

second: reward marker and clicker are the same thing. you click(reward mark) and then you reward(treat).

third: this is what we want you to explain:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSilverman View Post
What you wrote here is:
The click signifies that a reward is coming but not what or how many.

What you wrote there is exactly what we do, and how we use it 100%. We use it that way with marine mammals and dogs. I am trying to understand where you are coming from, so bear with me. If you are doing something different than this, my question is why would you do anything different?

I think I can explain better how most dog trainers use it that I know, including myself. The only time we use it with dogs is when we want to bridge a defined time that the animal did something correct. Like with the eye cover.. especially early on in training. Or maybe a dog standing on his hind legs. The sound works so much better than the word "good". We bridge and then reward with food intermittently.

I hope this explains what we do.
Quote:
That was a great description of clicker training, but if I could, I would like to make just one correction. Being a former killer whale and dolphin trainer (you can see the pictures on my website), I actually won the I.M.A.T.A. "Behavior of the Year Award" in 1986. I just wanted to mention that I, along with many other marine mammal trainers found that the clicker or whistle did not need to be followed by the reinforcer, as you mentioned.

I teach people that the clicker or whistle is a form of communication, and nothing else. It only means the animal did the behavior correctly. Will the animal get a reward? Probably, but on a varied schedule, it creates much more drive and excitement from the animal. I teach trainers to stay unpredictable. If you want a great example in dog training, take a look at the agility trainers. They click, but sometimes never reward the animal until the end. That builds drive and attitude.


This is what I'm referring to..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSilverman View Post
I'm starting this thread as a carry over from the member introduction forum.

A reward marker simply signals to the animal that it will be reinforced when they hear the sound of the marker. (maybe) Here is where we disagree. I may reward the dog and maybe I won't... By varying this, I create drive... I cannot believe that I am telling you this, and you do not know it.

The difference between a reward marker and "good boy/whale/chicken/dog"
is that the reinforcer MUST (Wrong!!) follow or the reward marker is diluted in it's meaning. If you consistently do not reward the animal you are absolutely correct.

If the sound is not followed by a reinforcer than it is not correct to call it a reward marker but rather praise or a bridge to nowhere. You are right if you are doing it consistently But we are varying the reinforcement. This is nothing more than varied reinforcement schedule. A technique that I, along with every marine mammal trainer and almost all Hollywood animal trainers use.
how do you reward... but then you don't reward?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:25 PM
JoelSilverman JoelSilverman is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 64
Default

Thank you for explaining that... I really appreciate it. I was going round in circles with these guys...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:19 AM.


©1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site