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  #21  
Old 08-01-2008, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dr2little View Post
I have never seen a tool as misunderstood as a clicker. I didn't read through all of the long responses which I'm sure had some fantastic information in them but I just had to say....cause I get SO annoyed with people dismissing something because they don't understand it -

A CLICKER IS A REWARD MARKER

IT SIMPLY MARKS A BEHAVIOR THAT YOU LIKE AND SIGNALS TO THE ANIMAL THAT A REWARD IS ON IT'S WAY

A REWARD MARKER CAN BE ANY STATIC SOUND OR SIGNAL- A WORD, A WHISTLE, A FOOT STOMP - A THUMBS UP, A FLASH LIGHT.....

THE MARKER IS ONLY USED UNTIL THE LIGHTBULB MOMENT HAPPENS - SOMETIMES A FEW AS 6 TIMES/BEHAVIOUR

THE REWARD MARKER IS ONE OF THE QUICKEST FADES IF DONE CORRECTLY

IT HAS BEEN PROVEN TO DRASTICALLY IMPROVE SPEED OF COMPLIANCE

REWARD MARKERS ARE INVALUABLE FOR TREATING EVERYTHING FROM LEASH PULLING TO SEVERE DA AND HA.....AS IS DONE IN MY GROWL CLASSES WITH LASTING PREDICTABILITY, NO COMPARISON TO WHEN I ONLY KNEW HOW TO PUNISH REACTIVITY.



Much better than my middle of the night rant

Dana: Interesting point about my father, he would not have a dog he had to confine he wanted them loose for many reasons. But I clearly remember one time when I had to put the trash out at the road, we had an extra bag, that wouldn't fit into the can. I put the trash, our dogs got into that bag, it was ME not the dogs who caught it the next day. According to my dad, dogs will be dogs and that was my responsiblity..........the dogs were not punished, but I had to clean up that mess.
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  #22  
Old 08-01-2008, 11:13 AM
Gempress Gempress is offline
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Originally Posted by a.baker View Post
See the reason I am not sold on the clicker is because what would you do if you lost it? And always having to hold it. I like the voice better to get the attention and redirect. I also like it better with the voice because than other people in the house can instantly say and they listen rather than my daughter trying to use the clicker who might not have the hand strength yet... depends or my husband who loses everything. Plus for outings and guests that come over can say and they listen.
Like Doc said, a clicker is a reward marker---not a crutch. That's one of the biggest falsehoods out there. People seem to think that clicker trainers are somehow incapacitated without their clicker. FALSE!

A clicker is a tool, just like any other. People would no more panic when they lost a clicker than if they lost their training collar. There is only ONE basic difference between a clicker and something like a prong collar or scolding voice. A clicker tells the dog when they've done right. A training collar or scold tells them when they've done wrong. That's it.

I used the clicker to polish Voodoo's obedience speed. I haven't taken it out of the drawer for more than a year. But my dog still obeys promptly.
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  #23  
Old 08-01-2008, 12:13 PM
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Another huge benefit of clicker training is that it teaches the human to focus more on what the dog does right instead of constantly waiting for the dog to do something wrong.

I can't imagine going back to my the old methods that we all used to use (if you're as old as I am and have been doing it for a coons age). Not because I'm an old softy now but because the dogs that I train now are much more successful, reliable and predictable...Oh, and best of all.....HAPPIER, WILLING PARTICIPANTS IN THEIR TRAINING.

Training never has to include fear, intimidation or pain....
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  #24  
Old 08-01-2008, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Gempress View Post
Like Doc said, a clicker is a reward marker---not a crutch. That's one of the biggest falsehoods out there. People seem to think that clicker trainers are somehow incapacitated without their clicker. FALSE!

A clicker is a tool, just like any other. People would no more panic when they lost a clicker than if they lost their training collar. There is only ONE basic difference between a clicker and something like a prong collar or scolding voice. A clicker tells the dog when they've done right. A training collar or scold tells them when they've done wrong. That's it.

I used the clicker to polish Voodoo's obedience speed. I haven't taken it out of the drawer for more than a year. But my dog still obeys promptly.
ZACTLY!!!!
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  #25  
Old 08-01-2008, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Gempress View Post
There is only ONE basic difference between a clicker and something like a prong collar or scolding voice. A clicker tells the dog when they've done right. A training collar or scold tells them when they've done wrong. That's it.
This is a good point, and this is one main reason why I personally like to do clicker training - it forces me to focus on my dog's good behaviors, and somewhat ignore the bad behaviors. In my mind, I'm counting, for example, how many times my dog returned to heel position on his own, instead of counting how many times I had to correct him for getting out of position. This makes ME happier, as well as making my dog happier, and if we're both happy, we're much more likely to want to train again.
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  #26  
Old 08-01-2008, 01:31 PM
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Another thing, an animal whether it be a dog, horse, human etc, that isn't worried about making a mistake will learn faster. They are much more willing to try something, to see if that is what we wanted.
I would much rather have an animal offer a behaviour and not do the one I was seeking, than an animal do nothing or be worried about its choice.
I have far more experience in training horses than dogs and I figured out about 30 yrs ago that I had far better results with a reward based method than corrections. Interesting that although I never sought them out, it was the so called problem horses that came my way.
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  #27  
Old 08-01-2008, 01:54 PM
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I think the greatest thing about the clicker is the precision of it. You can mark a behavior quickly, much quicker than saying a word, so the dog quickly learns what action you want.

At the same time, I think some people feel that scolding means "screaming at your pet" or "putting the fear of God into your pet". Well, those are not synonymous. Nor is telling your dog "no" going to "ruin it forever" (as one random lady in PetCo told me. )

When I scold, I don't raise my voice--not unless they're about to do something REALLY dangerous that needs to stop IMMMEDIATELY (like say one of them is about to jump onto a hot stove.) I just change my tone to "the mom tone." You know the one--"Johnny Buckley, I'm going to count to three . . ." My observation is that the more positive your relationship with your pet is, the more effective scolding is. When Remy, the kitty in my avatar, was a kitten he was very flighty and handshy. I could scold my other kitten, Booster, but I couldn't scold Remy because he'd get very scared. I think he must have had some bad experiences in his former home.

Anyway, after a few months he began to warm up to me . . . He's about three years old now and he's come so far. He's become a gorgeous, confident cat who loves being petted and getting attention. And now I can scold him and he doesn't get fearful because now he understands that it doesn't mean I'm going to hit him (I've never hit my pets), it doesn't even mean that I'm angry with him, it just means he's doing something inappropriate and needs to stop. And he does. Not out of fear (and believe me, I can recognize his fearful mood!) I've been careful not to give any of my pets, but especially not him, reason to fear me.

I do include a lot of positive interactions, of course, and if a kitty stops doing something bad after I scold, then I pet and praise them and perhaps offer them a treat. I could never train mainly with treats because Booster, the biggest cat, is a total chowhound. If I give him "the eye" then he won't steal the other cats treats, but he will hover in the background hopefully. Unfortunately this makes Remy so nervous that he'll often walk away from the treat and Booster ends up with it anyway. If Remy does manage to eat the treat, he takes so long about it (picking it up, dropping it, nervously eyeing Booster, picking it up, dropping it) that I doubt he would remember what it's for in the first place by the time he got it down.
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:34 PM
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Thanks for starting a clicker thread because this whole thing is getting off topic

Now when you watch a pack or other dogs communicate to each other, the reason why I chose food for the example, fear, setting who is in what place and testing each other to learn is because:

You watch a dog have food and another dog try to go for it. Well the one with the food will protect its dinner by growling and/or snapping at the other dog. The other dog will test until the one with the food places "fear" onto the dog who is trying to steal his food. See what I mean?

Oh lol the fear you place in your dog could be a time out, taking his food or treat away, taking his toys away, what ever. Same thing being discussed just sensitivity on what others title it.

So anyways what do you do for what ever you want to call it?

Thanks Boemy for getting this thread back on topic. Interesting since I have never had a cat to train.


I used to take food or treats away along with using my tone of voice. Some times I still do both but I noticed my tone of voice is all thats needed at this point.
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  #29  
Old 08-01-2008, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
You watch a dog have food and another dog try to go for it. Well the one with the food will protect its dinner by growling and/or snapping at the other dog. The other dog will test until the one with the food places "fear" onto the dog who is trying to steal his food. See what I mean?

Oh lol the fear you place in your dog could be a time out, taking his food or treat away, taking his toys away, what ever. Same thing being discussed just sensitivity on what others title it.
But the thing is, I'm fairly confident that Meg has figured out I'm not a dog. I can't offer a correction like a dog can, because I'm not as quick with my teeth or as good at growling. In your example, the dog with the food offers those as "corrections". They don't go take the other dog's food or toys away, or make him go sit in the corner and think about what he has done. So in the first paragraph, you are saying we should treat the dog as if we are another dog, then you contradict it in the second.

My dog is incredibly reliable around food (to stick with your example). I don't ever worry about her jumping on a counter or table, even our low coffee table. I can leave a plate of food on the floor, tell her "leave it" (trained originally with a clicker and treats), and walk out of the room without worrying. My friend and I actually had a good laugh one night; we were trying to catch a loose, nearly feral dog in a nearby neighborhood, and had come armed with Meg and one of her dogs, and McDonald's cheeseburgers. We kept leaving the car to walk around, cheeseburgers on the dash and both dogs loose in the car. Neither dog even tried to get the stinky meat. Again, two dogs trained with clickers.

Meg has been a godsend to me, because she has taught me to be very, very good at training with extremely minimal corrections. I can hardly use a NRM on her, because she decides to stop playing. She is the ultimate example of "think in terms of what you want your dog to do, not what you don't want them to do". I didn't teach her she wasn't allowed to touch food without permission; I taught her to wait for permission before touching food. A very important distinction to her. My future dogs are going to be very grateful I had Meg in my life! Most dogs aren't going to care so much about something like a verbal correction, but if I can train without it, I'm sure going to!
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  #30  
Old 08-01-2008, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by a.baker View Post
How do you talk to your dog when they are in trouble or displease you?

I just say my dogs (works for both of them) their name really low and slow in the tone showing I am disappointed. They both hang their heads low just like a child was if they were caught. Mind you my one is a puppy and the other a year old today so still kinda puppy.
OK, back on topic...
I absolutely never use a dogs name in any tone or prior to any action that is not positive, particularly when they're pups. This alone is one of the quickest ways to ruin a recall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by a.baker View Post
Thanks for starting a clicker thread because this whole thing is getting off topic

Now when you watch a pack or other dogs communicate to each other, the reason why I chose food for the example, fear, setting who is in what place and testing each other to learn is because:

You watch a dog have food and another dog try to go for it. Well the one with the food will protect its dinner by growling and/or snapping at the other dog. The other dog will test until the one with the food places "fear" onto the dog who is trying to steal his food. See what I mean?

Oh lol the fear you place in your dog could be a time out, taking his food or treat away, taking his toys away, what ever. Same thing being discussed just sensitivity on what others title it.

So anyways what do you do for what ever you want to call it?

Thanks Boemy for getting this thread back on topic. Interesting since I have never had a cat to train.


I used to take food or treats away along with using my tone of voice. Some times I still do both but I noticed my tone of voice is all thats needed at this point.
This is a good way to teach a dog to resource guard.

I'm seriously not trying to be unkind but so much of what I'm reading in your posts are huge red flags. It would be great if you could enroll in a puppy class in your area, one that uses current methods.
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