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Old 04-01-2013, 10:19 PM
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Default AI Breeding Info? (Litter Size)

Okay, so Futurepuppy (right now's plan, anyhow) is going to have an already deceased Daddy, something that definitely could be used for the other thread about things that make casual dog owners balk, lol.

But anyway, the breeder is breeding her 4-year-old bitch back to her old dog, with frozen semen of his that she had saved. I am trying to educate myself more on the subject. Is it more likely to be a smaller litter because it is IA? She warned me that it might be small and she is planning on keeping two puppies. However, I do have slot #3. I'm just not sure if it's true or a myth, or somewhat true or what, haha.

So does anyone have any previous experience/knowledge about litter sizes to do with AI?
The dog has been dead about 15 years, I don't know when the semen was collected.

Thanks
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:46 PM
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Unfortunately my breeding for vet students book is packed away or I would open it to take a look at what it has to say, but a quick google turns up this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2621732
Quote:
Litter size was estimated to be 21.5% smaller in bitches inseminated with fresh semen compared with naturally mated bitches. Litter size in bitches inseminated with frozen semen was 23.3% smaller than in bitches inseminated with fresh semen.
So sounds like litter size goes naturally mated > inseminated with fresh semen > inseminated with frozen semen.

Quality of the semen is incredibly important and frozen pops seem to be quite... touchy. Frozen pops take less frequently than fresh sperm. Also, if he was older when he was collected, his sperm count could already have been low which can affect litter size and probability that it would take at all... but without knowing when he was collected it's hard to speculate on that. Some places will actually examine sperm count to determine if it's worth saving too. A 20 year old frozen pop could be perfectly fine or if the facility hasn't managed it properly it could be worthless.

Oh, from that same abstract:
Quote:
Pregnancies were obtained with fresh semen of inferior quality, although the litter size was smaller. With frozen semen no pregnancies resulted when the semen quality was poor.
So it looks like even if the sample is poor with fresh you can still get a smaller litter, but with crappy frozen semen you just get no litter at all.


There are a lot of variables that are unknown so it's hard to say. But from that study linked above it does appear that frozen semen can produce smaller litters.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:43 PM
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When I had Tully inseminated with frozen semen, she conceived 6 puppies, which is a large litter for her line. I lost all but the one, but that wasn't a result of the semen, it was probably Tully.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:55 AM
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Frozen semen is generally a one-time surgical insertion due to the shorter life span of the sperm --- once thawed they only live a few hours compared to the multiple breedings and days-long lifespan common in natural breedings. So it all depends on whether you get your timing and placement right. If you do and the semen's been properly handled there's no reason the litter should be smaller. If you don't the litter may be smaller or not take, depending how off the breeding is.

Timing it is easier than it used to be if you have a good repro vet, from what I understand. I hope that's true since mira's will be frozen AI
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Old 04-02-2013, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Frozen semen is generally a one-time surgical insertion due to the shorter life span of the sperm --- once thawed they only live a few hours compared to the multiple breedings and days-long lifespan common in natural breedings. So it all depends on whether you get your timing and placement right. If you do and the semen's been properly handled there's no reason the litter should be smaller. If you don't the litter may be smaller or not take, depending how off the breeding is.

Timing it is easier than it used to be if you have a good repro vet, from what I understand. I hope that's true since mira's will be frozen AI
Flat coat people know. Listen to flat coat people haha.

Kaleb is a pupsicle and that was a litter of I believe 10 pups.
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:20 AM
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I think it all depends on the repro vet you use and their skill and the quality of steps along the way. I have a dog that was born in a litter of 10. She was born 9-1-2006. All 10 survived and are doing fine. The semen was collected in 1993. They did another litter a year later with the same stuff and had another litter and I think it was 10 again.
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
I think it all depends on the repro vet you use and their skill and the quality of steps along the way. I have a dog that was born in a litter of 10. She was born 9-1-2006. All 10 survived and are doing fine. The semen was collected in 1993. They did another litter a year later with the same stuff and had another litter and I think it was 10 again.
This.

Kaia was surgically inseminated with frozen stuff from a long dead dog.

The vet looked at the semen under microscope when it thawed and was dismayed to see it was only 30% mobile. Which is very poor. At that point we had to do the surgery or lose the chance forever because that was his last straw, and she had a one hour window of fertility, and it was already thawed.

She had 10 puppies. 9 live births. 1 miscarried about 25 days into the pregnancy for unknown reasons. The live ones were all huge and healthy and beautiful and marvelous, so it was totally worth it.

It's worth noting that our repro vet is considered one of the best canine repro vets in the country. She's seriously amazing. I'm convinced the only reason Kaia conceived so many is because of the vet's spidey sense for ovulation timing.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:43 PM
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Yes, timing is key, and a good repro vet. Tully's breeder has also had good success with frozen semen. She's used trans-cervical insemination, but I brought that up to the vet I was using, and he preferred to go with surgical. I thought it best to go with what the vet was comfortable with, to get the best possible results.

Tully's breeder did bring up that maybe I should try a live cover breeding first, after Tully's sister had some reproductive difficulties, but my feeling was that I really only wanted to breed her once, and didn't want to pop out puppies just to pop out puppies; if I produced puppies, I wanted to know that I was aiming at perfection. So I chose to take the gamble of frozen semen on a maiden bitch. (it also was far from the last straw from that stud, and he'd produced other litters, so it wasn't a matter of using it up and losing all chances at that genetic material).

While I was sorry to lose the other 5 puppies, I did get Tess out of the breeding, and she is rather exceptional. And she has produced Pirate, also exceptional. So... probably worth it.
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:32 PM
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Nel's last season, we had a TCI done with frozen pellets. Got a great repro vet, progesterone tested her, but unfortunately the storage facility that had handled the dog had either incorrectly labeled or... well basically everything went wrong. When thawed it was between 30 and 50% motile, diluted to half the concentration it should have been, was tinted pink (blood present), and they sent one breeding dose when we asked for two. Needless to say the pregnancy didn't take. Was heartbreaking but all in all, I kind of expected it.

She just came into season again on Tuesday and went for her first progesterone test today. We're using a different dog this time, 80% motility but frozen once again.

A TCI is trans-cervical insemination, for those who haven't heard of it. It uses a kind of catheter and a fiber optic scope to inject everything through the cervix into the uterus. Minimally invasive and doesn't require sedation, but it does require an experienced repro vet who has an eye for timing.

We have a much better shot this time, but she's never been bred naturally, which I have heard reduces chances it will take. Her sister had 6 puppies through a TCI with frozen and she and her sister came from a litter of 11 produced through a TCI with frozen. The dog has produced litters with frozen, including the current #7 Dane in breed standing (woot!) so I'm trying to stay hopeful this time.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyPug View Post
Flat coat people know. Listen to flat coat people haha.
Definitely not a rare occurrence in the FCR world, yeah . Frozen or chilled & shipped. Cookie was a pupsicle from frozen semen that was at least a decade old out of a 6 yr old bitch and there were 5 supersize puppies 18-22oz at birth).
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