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Old 02-13-2013, 03:40 PM
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Default Talon and other dogs

So at puppy class when play time came around Talon failed. >_< He is right in between weight for big dog group or small dog group. I was a bit nervous about the big dogs and thought since he plays with Art well he would do best in the small dog group. So I put him in with the small dog group.

He failed though, he just tackled/bullied the small dogs to no end. I guess they do not = Art lol We had to take him out for time outs twice before removing him completely as he was just being a jerk. He also spent half the time he was in there looking for treats and pushing dogs out of the way if he thought they found a treat. ERG

So last week we missed class because the dogs were so sick. So this week we have class again and I'm wondering if I shouldn't put him in with the big dogs?

He is also very movement reactive. If the dogs run he will chase and nip at them. Any suggestions? I know this is a very common herder trait, our instructor also tried to reassure us it was a common herding dog trait and to try to distract him. Problem is he can't have treats when playing with other dogs or he get's a bit possesive.

Also, he went to the dog park this morning as he was bouncing off the walls and we've been meaning to check it out anyways. So it was their reward for feeling better lol He did GREAT! He was not a bully at all!

There wasn't a ton of people, but there was a large lab/pit mix, a little lab mix puppy about his size, a boston terrier puppy (very small), a little terrier mix, a standard poodle, a large lab mix, and a people and kids lol

When he initially came in he went and met the other dogs with no issues. Well, his hackles went up a little but he quickly calmed down. I think it was more excitment than anything else. The lab/pit mix tried to hump him more than once (the owner stopped it immediatly each time, and distracted the dog, A+ owner lol) and he didn't over react! He once told the dog to stop by snapping at him but then he was friends with it aas long as it didn't hump him.

He loved the lab mix puppy as it was just his size. That puppy was perfect for him to play with and they romped and tackled and played super well.

Oh, here's a short video, sorry it's crappy and I just keep talking >_< Also, this was the only time he got tackled by the puppy and he wasn't fond of it, but that was the only "problem." Not a big deal, he had fun again after lol



So basically, puppy class = horrible evil dog. dog park = perfect playful dog. So now I'm dreading puppy class a bit. blah, any suggestions on how to make him more comfortable playing with the dogs at puppy class and not be such a jerk?
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:21 PM
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I really have no help since I'm battling the same thing but I'll be interested to hear the replies. Hopefully some people have helpful ideas!

I wish you lots of luck though and try to not get too frustrated!
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:36 PM
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He's 4 months, correct? I would NOT except that type (possessive/bullying) of behavior from a 4 month old BC, male no less. Yeah, nip this behavior now.

For the nipping of other dogs, will Art correct him? It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable. Blaze did this as a puppy to Lizzie (no other dogs that I can remember) and she simply corrected him. Very easy fix. I'd ask your trainer if she has any dogs, if Art will not, that are good 'puppy correctors' (Lizzie is, she gives fair, but warranted corrections nicely to pups) and just set up a play time and let nature works it's magic.

When you say he was bulling/tackling other pups, what do you mean? Could you explain that a bit more?

For the being pushy with treats around other dogs - just don't reward that. I would start rewarding him only when he's asking nicely for treats. How does he get possessive with other dogs? Is it just puppy class? Or Art too?
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:47 PM
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Ok so apparently he is all better. Sometimes I really just don't get this dog. Puppy class yesterday he was great. No nipping, no tackling, except in play. He went with the large dogs perfectly. Met dogs on leash perfectly. A lady dropped her bag of treats all over the play area and all the dogs came running to eat them. I thought for sure there was going to be an issue with Talon, but he let the other dogs eat the treats right next to him! He enjoyed himself so much, he had zoomies. When the other dogs ran past tackling each other, he just wanted to run WITH them and not dodge AT them! ^_^

Obviously he's just a crazy nut job. That's all I got.

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Originally Posted by Lizmo View Post
He's 4 months, correct? I would NOT except that type (possessive/bullying) of behavior from a 4 month old BC, male no less. Yeah, nip this behavior now.

For the nipping of other dogs, will Art correct him? It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable. Blaze did this as a puppy to Lizzie (no other dogs that I can remember) and she simply corrected him. Very easy fix. I'd ask your trainer if she has any dogs, if Art will not, that are good 'puppy correctors' (Lizzie is, she gives fair, but warranted corrections nicely to pups) and just set up a play time and let nature works it's magic.

When you say he was bulling/tackling other pups, what do you mean? Could you explain that a bit more?

For the being pushy with treats around other dogs - just don't reward that. I would start rewarding him only when he's asking nicely for treats. How does he get possessive with other dogs? Is it just puppy class? Or Art too?
Obviously I'm NOT accepting that behavior, thus, the original post asking for more help on how to correct it.

He's almost 6 months, not that it really matters all that much lol Artimis will correct him, but no where near soon enough. He lets Talon get away with a lot before he will do anything.

We have never rewarded him for being pushy around treats, just the opposite in fact. He only get's rewarded when asking nicely of course. If he acts up with Art he immediately get's taken out for a "cool down" time. Then back out to try again and if he acts nice and is patient he get's a treat. He is pretty fine with Artimis, he tried it at first but that was short lived.

With other dogs it's more "MINE" turn real quick nip and come back for treat. Though he has only done this while on leash with the other puppies so far. Again, we have been working on it. So far we have been just rewarding for calm behavior when other dogs walk past and trating for that, which seems to have helped if last class was any evidence. He really hasn't been around other dogs with food other than puppy class. So I don't know about any other situation. We do not bring treats to the dog park just in case. Plus he focus' on the treats so much it's ridiculous!

Though,. last night there whee treats on the desk and even though he tried to climb up and get them once or twice he didn't focus on them! Which for him is amazing.



I don't know, some days he is such a brat and other days he's perfect >_<


When I said he was bullying/tackling the other puppies I just meant he'd jump on them and push them to the ground, or just simply push them over. It very well could of been just rough play but because the dog was small it was obviously inappropriate.
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linds View Post
I really have no help since I'm battling the same thing but I'll be interested to hear the replies. Hopefully some people have helpful ideas!

I wish you lots of luck though and try to not get too frustrated!
Thank you! I'll try, but man is it hard some days! Like I said in my reply to Lizmo, some day's he is absolutely fine and other days he is just a demon! >_< I'm wondering if it's just a "teenage" rebellion stage for him, IDK. :/


Good luck with Didgie as well!
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:52 PM
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I have a 6 month male BC pup as well, who I have been working REALLY hard with to avoid herding behavior in dog play/bullying. Most of it comes down to recall/distraction with engagement. I'm always more important than my pup, and always have treats on me, so when he starts displaying behavior that I think will escalate, he's recalled to me and gets a treat for coming on top of it; even more awesome for him, and he starts CHOOSING to leave rough play to come to me because he knows that's what gets him his rewards.

As for being snarky around other dogs with food, start working with him and your other dog all over the place, keeping a foot distance or so between them to start and handing each a treat very obviously in front of their faces and not near each other's at the same time. Then gradually get your hands closer... he'll be so distracted on "his" treat that he won't feel the need to move over to get the one you're putting in front of your other dog. Then after many repetitions of that, start rotating which dogs gets a treat. First Art, then Talon, back and forth or in whatever pattern you want, with some duos (both getting a treat out of separate hands) thrown in as well.

Then try working on it in a calmer environment that Talon is comfortable in with a different dog. Preferably a dog that he already knows and has positive association with/plays well with.

Good luck!
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:19 PM
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The fact that he is sometimes ok with other dogs, especially in settings other than class, is pretty promising.

I would start doing resource guarding games, especially with Art/other dogs involved. Romy has such a good one, she really should make a post and have it stickied. Chewbecca also had awesome resource guarding advice, but she hardly ever posts anymore.

Having him play with adult dogs who are comfortable correcting him (especially if they're his size so he doesn't get intimidated) will be a great idea. One on one, or in very small groups, if you can.

I'd consider the strong possibility that he's either sometimes overwhelmed in puppy class, either overstimulated/over-excited or a bit nervous and feels the need to be pushy to control the situation. I'm not sure if this is the *best* advice, because I've never dealt with it, but what I personally would do is let him play, and remove him for a time out if he gets pushy. Don't just interrupt and try to distract him, actually remove him from the group for a few minutes.

How does he react if he can see the other dogs playing but isn't able to get to them to play? And how is his recall/focus on you, while the other dogs are playing?
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJEtzel View Post
I have a 6 month male BC pup as well, who I have been working REALLY hard with to avoid herding behavior in dog play/bullying. Most of it comes down to recall/distraction with engagement. I'm always more important than my pup, and always have treats on me, so when he starts displaying behavior that I think will escalate, he's recalled to me and gets a treat for coming on top of it; even more awesome for him, and he starts CHOOSING to leave rough play to come to me because he knows that's what gets him his rewards.

As for being snarky around other dogs with food, start working with him and your other dog all over the place, keeping a foot distance or so between them to start and handing each a treat very obviously in front of their faces and not near each other's at the same time. Then gradually get your hands closer... he'll be so distracted on "his" treat that he won't feel the need to move over to get the one you're putting in front of your other dog. Then after many repetitions of that, start rotating which dogs gets a treat. First Art, then Talon, back and forth or in whatever pattern you want, with some duos (both getting a treat out of separate hands) thrown in as well.

Then try working on it in a calmer environment that Talon is comfortable in with a different dog. Preferably a dog that he already knows and has positive association with/plays well with.

Good luck!
Well he knows not to mess with Art and treats anymore. Not that Art does anything but i do lol so he's pretty calm around treats and Art and just waits patiently. Occasionally he might get a bit amped but usually that's my fault for pushing him too fast i think. But working in different environments might help, as he'll be a bit more excited then.

i definitely need to work on his recalls! We have been really bad with those

Quote:
Originally Posted by milos_mommy View Post
The fact that he is sometimes ok with other dogs, especially in settings other than class, is pretty promising.

I would start doing resource guarding games, especially with Art/other dogs involved. Romy has such a good one, she really should make a post and have it stickied. Chewbecca also had awesome resource guarding advice, but she hardly ever posts anymore.

Having him play with adult dogs who are comfortable correcting him (especially if they're his size so he doesn't get intimidated) will be a great idea. One on one, or in very small groups, if you can.

I'd consider the strong possibility that he's either sometimes overwhelmed in puppy class, either overstimulated/over-excited or a bit nervous and feels the need to be pushy to control the situation. I'm not sure if this is the *best* advice, because I've never dealt with it, but what I personally would do is let him play, and remove him for a time out if he gets pushy. Don't just interrupt and try to distract him, actually remove him from the group for a few minutes.

How does he react if he can see the other dogs playing but isn't able to get to them to play? And how is his recall/focus on you, while the other dogs are playing?
Maybe our puppy class instructors dog (lab) will be a good one, I'll ask her. She brought him yesterday so maybe she'll be comfortable with it

I think he's a bit over stimulated sometimes. We've been taking him for time outs. The distraction was before he actually jumped on the other dogs. So if I see him focusing on the small dogs then I distract im, but if he jumps on them/nips then he is time out. It didn't really seem to matter to him cause he care's less about the small dogs unless the movement or treats are involved. The big dogs he loved.

Recalls are one thing we have not worked on enough. We need to do more of those! he is OK on recalls, in the big dog group he will recall off playing or running fairly easily. When he was in the small dog group I'd get nothing for a recall. he focus' and that's it. So I think our play is going to be recalls and working on stimulation.

Thanks!

What's romy's resource gaurding game?

When he is not playing and just watching he doesn't care about the dogs. He only cares if he see's another dog getting a treat then he get's jealous/whiny/barking/freak out. We usually walk him away so he can't see them and then bring him back treating him for calm behavior.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Babyblue5290 View Post
Like I said in my reply to Lizmo, some day's he is absolutely fine and other days he is just a demon! >_< I'm wondering if it's just a "teenage" rebellion stage for him, IDK. :/
I think you hit the nail on the head here!

5+ months old is, IMO, a little too old to be in puppy playtime with other puppies. If your trainer is ok with it, fine, but hopefully she'll stay on top of his behavior and not let him annoy the other puppies too much.

The reason I say 5+ months is too old is that this is the age most dogs start going into adolescence; they loose their "puppy license" that lets them get away with doing rude behaviors. And on top of that they become "know-it-alls" and are pushy and demanding in general.

So, a pushy adolescent who hasn't quite figured out what's rude and what's appropriate, is probably going to be overly pushy and rude when in a play group with a bunch of baby dogs.

This also explains why he does better in a dog park - because there are confident, adult dogs who can appropriately teach him the rules of dog behavior in a way that he can understand.

I think it was a good idea to move him into the big dog group at puppy class; IMO it would also be a really good idea to find him an adult playmate who is confident enough to tell him when he's being rude, and appropriate enough to tell him that without escalating his behavior.

Good luck!
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:57 AM
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So as an update, we've been to puppy class and dog park multiple times and he has shown absolutely no pushy/bad behavior at all. He even played with a group of small dogs without so much as jumping on them. He has gotten really good at running beside dogs as play or letting them chase him. He's actually turning out to be very good with doggy language. ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizzybeth727 View Post
I think you hit the nail on the head here!

5+ months old is, IMO, a little too old to be in puppy playtime with other puppies. If your trainer is ok with it, fine, but hopefully she'll stay on top of his behavior and not let him annoy the other puppies too much.

The reason I say 5+ months is too old is that this is the age most dogs start going into adolescence; they loose their "puppy license" that lets them get away with doing rude behaviors. And on top of that they become "know-it-alls" and are pushy and demanding in general.

So, a pushy adolescent who hasn't quite figured out what's rude and what's appropriate, is probably going to be overly pushy and rude when in a play group with a bunch of baby dogs.

This also explains why he does better in a dog park - because there are confident, adult dogs who can appropriately teach him the rules of dog behavior in a way that he can understand.

I think it was a good idea to move him into the big dog group at puppy class; IMO it would also be a really good idea to find him an adult playmate who is confident enough to tell him when he's being rude, and appropriate enough to tell him that without escalating his behavior.

Good luck!
I don't understand why being 5 months old is suddenly too old for socialization with other puppies around the same age. It's not like he's in a group of 8 week old puppies. This is a class for continued education and socialization for puppies, not for babies. I understand the opinion of not wanting to take teenage dogs and put them together considering hormonal changes, however the same thing is said about adult dogs being put together. so Meh, he has fun, get's some really good socialization, and other tha nthat one night all the dogs in this class have gotten on very well with each other. I think whoever it was that said it was most likely nerves was probably right. He hasn't "annoyed" another dog since the first night, and that was of course corrected immediately.

I wouldn't say he does better at the dog park. He did better at the dog park than that one class. Since then he has done good in either place, with big and little dogs A little dog even ran and he ran after, but as soon as it stopped, so did he! My little man is learning to be such a good boy lol

I think because of was a bit stressed and worried about his reaction initially I may have over-reacted. Of course I'll keep an eye on it and continue to work with him, but he seems to be doing great.
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