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Old 01-24-2005, 03:17 PM
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/rant on You know I've seen alot of discussion on these forums about good dog food and bad. I'm sure this has been debated before, but this is the first time I've ever really discussed this issue. We have brands like Purina, Alpo, Science Diet, Pedigree and so on who are very large companies.

For years before finding out it was junk I feed my dogs Purina, only to find out later on it was junk. Now Purina and Science Diet are 2 dog foods my former vet recommended and supported. Then come to find out they are both junk, now to me that is false advertising by these big companies when it says on the bag that its healthy and good for there heart and so on. So I switched to Science Diet to come and find out it was crap, yet more false advertising. If they are putting this much bad products out, it sounds like to me these big time politicians needs to step there overpaid butts in and do something about this.

But of course in there minds this prolly isn't important, I mean they prolly just say they are just animals. Us humans have tons of food that are bad for us as well, and same thing with dogs. Why in the hell does this continue to go on? Why are our loved ones being feed food that has harmful chemicals and trash in it? We should be able to depend on these big companies like Purina, Science Diet and so on. Instead the public is being fooled by these so called experts, and I think something needs to be done about this quick. But the question is when...... /rant off
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Old 01-24-2005, 04:12 PM
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Science Diet is crappy? My vet recommended that as well! We've gone through so many different foods with Chili, and I wouldn't eat them if I were a dog.
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Old 01-24-2005, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiliBeans
Science Diet is crappy? My vet recommended that as well! We've gone through so many different foods with Chili, and I wouldn't eat them if I were a dog.
Well that's what I hear, however I don't believe everything I hear. My current vet recommends me to feed her Innova, but he also supports Science Diet which is what I've been feeding Ginger here as of late. But doing some reading has made me switch to Innova here soon and Innova is overpriced as well in my opinion. But I want what's best for her, if Science Diet is crappy my question is why do vets recommend it? Guess I will ask him when she gets spayed Thursday and find out more in depth. Course then again on the Purina labels it say veterinarian approved also. And we pretty much have all come to the conclusion that isn't good food. So I say again if this food is junk then its false advertising and something needs to be done about it
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Old 01-24-2005, 04:33 PM
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Really my whole point of this post is I'm disgusted that over the years I trusted brands like Purina and Science Diet which I fed Max his whole life, mainly Science Diet is what he ate, but purina in the first few years of his life. Now he's gone and I'm not saying the food killed him cause he had a bad heart as it was and he was born with that I assume. In a way I blame myself for not doing the proper research, but my former vet always said Purina was fine, so you usually tend to believe your vet. But more than anything I'm pissed at these big companies for false advertising there products and telling us they are healthy when they aren't.

When I go to the store to buy treats and or food I should be able to trust that this is healthy when it says its healthy on the bag. But in todays world you can't do that anymore, and it really sucks. Back when I was a kid I had a chow dog named Brownie and he was a wonderful dog and lived 15 yrs eating Field Trial Chucks, but back in those days no one really knew what was good and bad. But today we have these people telling us lies now and I don't like it one single bit. Ok now /rant off yet again
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Old 01-28-2005, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Well that's what I hear, however I don't believe everything I hear.
you don't have to believe everything you hear, but simply looking at the ingredients in science diet will show you that it is poor quality crap. for more details, please read here, the shortcomings are pointed out in great detail.

Quote:
My current vet recommends me to feed her Innova, but he also supports Science Diet which is what I've been feeding Ginger here as of late.
most of the nutrition related education at vet schools is sponsored by hill's, so that's what vets know and feel "safe" recommending, because it has been pushed on them continually. the more you learn about ingredients, the better you will understand science diet's shortcomings. also, many vets sell science diet at their offices and make a profit of up to 40% of the price tag. money makes the world go round.

[quote]But doing some reading has made me switch to Innova here soon and Innova is overpriced as well in my opinion.[/url]

you made a great choice there, but i really do not think that innova is overpriced, considering what you get in the bag. when you look at it realistically, science diet is overpriced. i'll add a calculation at the end of this post to outline my statement a little more.

Quote:
But I want what's best for her, if Science Diet is crappy my question is why do vets recommend it?
by "vet recommended", do you mean a vet actually recommending during a consultation, or the slogan hill's uses to market it? because that's just a cleverly used phrase that is included in their trademark. either way, see my comments above.

Quote:
And we pretty much have all come to the conclusion that isn't good food. So I say again if this food is junk then its false advertising and something needs to be done about it
the sad thing is, what are you going to do about it? hills for example is a company that brought in 1.5 billion in revenue in 2004 alone, and it's a company that only has about 2,600 employees. if someone actually had reason to complain about something to them (which isn't hard lol), they don't have a problem to cough up the money to settle in court, plus a major share of veterinary research is sponsored by them, which would make it extremely hard to come up with facts they can't disprove somehow. the best thing you can do is boycot the company and tell everyone you know who has pets to do the same.

so, here goes the calculation:

let's base the calculation on the average nutritional requirements of a moderately active dog of 50 pounds. for these criteria, the AAFCO has established a value of 1,070.19 kcal/day, the NRC guideslines from 1983 cite two different numbers that average out to 1,580 kcal/day. we'll use the average of these two numbers for this example, which would be 1,340 kcal/day.

* science diet original and lamb & rice adult are generally priced at around $23 for a 20lb bag
nutritional value calculates as follows:
----- 1,684 kcal/lb, 365 kcal/cup, 33,680 kcal/bag, 92.3 cups/bag for the original
----- 1,680 kcal/lb, 364 kcal/cup, 33,609 kcal/bag, 92.3 cups/bag for the lamb & rice
these values are so similar they come out to the same when rounded, so i will only list the calculation once:
---------- cost per pound: $1.15
---------- cost per cup: $0.25
---------- daily feeding amount: 3.67 cups
---------- daily feeding cost: $0.92
---------- days bag will last: 25

* science diet advanced protection adult is generally priced at around $24 for a 17.5 lb bag
nutritional value calculates as follows:
----- 1,724 kcal/lb, 374 kcal/cup, 30,179 kcal/bag, 80.7 cups/bag
---------- cost per pound: $1.37
---------- cost per cup: $0.30
---------- daily feeding amount: 3.58 cups
---------- daily feeding cost: $1.07
---------- days bag will last: 22

* innova adult is generally priced at around $23 for a 16.5 lb bag
nutritional value calculates as follows:
----- 1894 kcal/lb, 557 kcal/cup, 31,260 kcal/bag, 56 cups/bag
---------- cost per pound: $1.39
---------- cost per cup: $0.41
---------- daily feeding amount: 2.4 cups
---------- daily feeding cost: $0.98
---------- days bag will last: 23

what you get for your money
for those 6 cents a day you spend more on the innova than on science diet, you get the following:
* whole, fresh, human grade ingredients, not on all kinds of industry byproducts and leftovers that have already been processed once and lost most of their nutritional value
* guaranteed hormone and antibiotic free meats; and grains, fruits and vegetables that have been tested to be free of pesticide residues
* no generic "animal fat" (which can include pets that have been euthanized and rendered)
* no poorly absorbable supplements and artificial vitamins
* a food made in small batches and not stocked by retailers in large quantities, so it won't sit on the shelf for ages. i talked to a natura representative last weekend and he told me that some stores have a turnaround time of natura foods of about two weeks - that means you get fresher food with more of the nutrients intact

and no matter how suspicious i look now (*grins*), i am not an employee of natura or in any way affiliated with them and i don't sell their foods either. they just happen to make great products that are definitely not overpriced when you compare the details and don't just look at the price tag of the individual bags.
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Old 01-24-2005, 05:13 PM
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One of the differences back when, Max, was the way our food was produced. It was more expensive to augment with hormones, chemicals and antibiotics, so it wasn't done on a regular basis. We have become so adept at chemically manipulating our food supply that we're killing ourselves and our pets since the typical pet food manufacturer uses scrap, unfit for human consumption offal and leftover trash.

Science DIEt is pushed by vets primarily for the same reason your MD wants to put you on the newest drugs - because the salesman tells him it's the latest and greatest. The typical vet does no research on the stuff, in all fairness time is very dear to a vet, but they shouldn't be promoting something they know nothing about. Of course, there are some who don't really want to keep pets TOO healthy - it costs them business. Those vets aren't the norm, though, most are just - to put it bluntly - ignorant of what they are doing.

Truthfully, I'm amazed that foods like the Innova don't cost more than they do. The ingredients are very expensive and the methods of production they use are very significantly more expensive than other manufacturers - even more so than a lot of foods produced for human consumption I'd bet! Like hotdogs . . .
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Old 01-24-2005, 05:20 PM
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Well Renee you seem to know alot about these things, so I ask you this why are these big companies like Purina, Science Diet, Pedigree, etc. alowed to get away with false advertising of there products if they are dangerous to them? I think in my mind its because the general public don't give a **** and we know politicians don't.
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Old 01-24-2005, 05:15 PM
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By the way, Max, you might want to price compare the Innova if there's another outlet for it in your area. Vets' offices often sell feeds at a higher price, simply because they buy in smaller volume and don't get the same discount.
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In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.


There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
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Be a god. Know when to shut up.


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  #9  
Old 01-24-2005, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renee750il
By the way, Max, you might want to price compare the Innova if there's another outlet for it in your area. Vets' offices often sell feeds at a higher price, simply because they buy in smaller volume and don't get the same discount.
Yes I'm looking around at the prices, only found so far one place that sells this Innova and its about 100 miles from me
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Old 01-24-2005, 05:33 PM
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Okay, so you really want me to get up on this soapbox? Are you sure??

Too late!

We now live in a society that by and large will only pay attention in small bytes of information at a time. We want it quick and easy. We're consumers of unprecedented volume, and we have allowed ourselves to be lulled into an apathetic lethargy when it comes to swallowing whatever the TV screen, bag blurb, celebrity spokesperson, benign or authoritarian looking actor, authority figure, ad nauseum gets compensated to regurgitate to us. In short, we very predictably believe what we're told because it's easy and we've become far too trusting and accustomed.

We just don't question.

We make it far too easy.

No, governmental agencies don't give a flip about what our dogs eat. Proctor and Gamble, Purina and their ilk contribute millions to political parties - and they're smart enough to contribute fairly equally to both sides of the room.

The best way to combat this kind of practice is with your money. Don't buy their products. Write and let them know why you won't be buying their products. Worse yet, tell your local retailer why you aren't spending your dog food money in his store. That's where the pain is felt first, then it gets passed on up the line.

There - be proud of me now, lol - that wasn't too bad, was it?
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In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.


There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
Rumi
Be a god. Know when to shut up.


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