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Old 07-13-2012, 01:56 AM
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Muttkip Muttkip is offline
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Default Is it cruel?

Stumbled across this cursing youtube, and watching it...the first thing that came to my mind is why is that poor dog still alive?!

Personally I'm finding it cruel to keep the poor dog alive, constantly living in fear and lashing out at everything and everyone. But the people that own him however are another story.

Not to mention this dog is a "Pit Bull" and a MAJOR liability if he was to attack or kill someone which is what they fear he'll do.


What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40yVx3sBQgo
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:16 AM
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Okay, I haven't even finished watching it, but my first thought is WHY is that dog on a PRONG collar?!?! They're making everything about a BILLION times worse.

Theres three parts. I'll comment after Ive finished watching.

Oh the dog is afraid of people, out of his mind, so lets kick him! and corner him!
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:44 AM
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Okay, my thoughts are that, that is the kind of dog Cesar does help with. That dog is a huge danger and liability to people when he gets over aroused. Yes it would be better to keep him under threshold, but he seems to go from fine to nuts in a split second. Personally, I think the progress he made with the dog was fantastic, but I would never ever allow that dog anywhere without a muzzle on.

I don't think it's cruel to keep him alive, because he is happy, he can be happy and friendly, he just needs work, and a lot of it, because he's learned to lash out harshly and frequently. It more than likely would have been my recommendation to put the dog down, because not a lot of people are willing or able to handle that kind of severe aggresssion, but the dog loves them, and they obviously love the dog. I think in cases like this is where Cesars suppression training can help quite a bit, but I would get the prong off the dog, supress the behavior, and clicker train/behavior modifiication how he percieves people. It can be done that way, but it takes way better timing than his owners have I think.

What would be cruel is pronoucing him cured, ever, and then putting him in a situation where he's going to fail. I don't think he might ever be more than alert around people. Even laying on his side he wasn't relaxed, and that's something that makes me not trust him.

Idk. It was a very strange episode.
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Old 07-13-2012, 04:40 AM
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I'm still waiting for someone to have their face eaten off after following his advice from these programmes...

Would you walk this dog unmuzzled after his 'rehab'? Even if he is more relaxed...
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:45 AM
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I don't think its cruel to keep him alive. I think its unfair to rehab fear aggressive dogs by flooding.
I was shocked by how aggressive he was and showed my Mum, first thing she said was "Harry would be like that if you put him in that situation" and she's probably right. Harry we fear agro/reactive with people. He boarded safely, was managed and even could be loose with visitors if we felt confident enough in THEM to follow our rules of "don't look at him, touch him or be nervous of him" and he did have plenty of people that he would lovingly sit beside and get his ears patted by them.
Put him in a prong, muzzle, in an enclosed space on a tight leash and have a stranger walk into his house and provide no clear direction to him in this situation and you'd probably get exactly the same reaction.
We managed Harry's aggression for 4 good years, didn't PTS because he was the happiest, sweetest, most loving little messed up dog we'd ever met. I do think he could have been rehabbed succesfully but that didn't happen and in the end he was PTS scared and sore after we messed up, someone did come in unnanounced and when standing firm and saying "SIT" clearly to him probably would have stopped him, screaming and flailing landed a bite to the calf an a dead dog.

I don't think Cesar is this dogs last chance at rehab, but he probably will be after he's through with him. What I've been taught of flooding is that it either work entirely well, or entirely ruins the dog - not a risk I'd be willing to take.
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:51 AM
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The only time I would find this cruel is if the dog lived in constant fear, in his own home. If that isn't the case, I don't see a point in putting him down if they can manage him. I understand he's a risk but I wouldn't put a dog down if the owners were responsible. I know accidents happen but I still couldn't kill a dog because it could happen. If I thought like that, I wouldn't own Serenity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrose_s View Post
I do think he could have been rehabbed succesfully but that didn't happen and in the end he was PTS scared and sore after we messed up, someone did come in unnanounced and when standing firm and saying "SIT" clearly to him probably would have stopped him, screaming and flailing landed a bite to the calf an a dead dog.
That's so sad, I'm sorry Did you choose to put him down by choice or were you forced?
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TahlzK View Post
That's so sad, I'm sorry Did you choose to put him down by choice or were you forced?
It made us relise it had to happen but if given the choice we would have waited a few days to spoil him and get it done at home. Or he could have been impounded while we fought to get him out and if they chose to PTS from there (which they would have if they tested him in that situation) then we wern't allowed to be present for it. He was a poor little guy that should have never been brought into this world.
I have more regrets for that poor dog than any of them.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
I think in cases like this is where Cesars suppression training can help quite a bit, but I would get the prong off the dog, supress the behavior, and clicker train/behavior modifiication how he percieves people
But if you've suppressed the behavior how would you ever know if you've successfully changed how he perceives people?


I do not think it is cruel to keep a dog alive if he lives happily in his home with his family so long as the household doesn't have a ton of visitors. However I would probably never trust that dog around strangers without a muzzle on, regardless of training method. Any dog who is that quick to bite (as opposed to using other aggressive behaviors first) when threatened is not a dog to trust. I do think he can be trained to the point where he feels safe and behaves well, but because biting seems to be his first reaction to getting upset I still would not trust him.

I do think it's cruel to treat aggression like Cesar does (and like his owners were before), when you do that the dog still suffers as much as he did before when visitors come, he just has to do it in silence. he feels the same or worse about visitors. The only benefit to the dog is that once he stops reacting he gets hurt by his owners less. I'd really rather see a dog like that put down then treated like he has been in those videos. Luckily those aren't the only two options available to dog owners. I just don't get people being so happy that they've made their dog so terrified of them that they are afraid to react. Strangers used to be your dogs worst nightmare, now you are.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:12 AM
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The good, and bad thing about suppression is you never entirely erase the underlying issue. The suppression would only be short term, even Cesars form will only work for so long. And I never said I'd flood the dog. That's mostly cesars mo though.

You suppress it short term to keep the dog and people safe, while simultaneously working on changing the underlying feeling. It can be done, but it takes a long time for something like that.
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:28 PM
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Oh gosh I HATE this episode. "Make him surrender"...*sigh* Why do people watch this show?

Ears back head low -- he's SCARED. And all this jerk does is follow him around with a camera. :-(

To add, I'm not sure about euthanasia or not. It's an episode of CM's show so the dog is cornered and forced to act out. I'm not sure how the dog REALLY is when he's not put under such stresses nor how the dog would be with proper rehabilitation, not this sort of nonsense.
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