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Old 09-27-2009, 10:52 PM
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Default What's to become of our purebred dogs?

This just sickens me.

YouTube - History of the change in the german shepherd over the years

YouTube - German Shepherd half dog half frog
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:53 PM
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:56 PM
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I see text, but no links.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:58 PM
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I know what you are talking about. Its just shows that even akc registered breeding is not always done with best intentions and properly This breed was beautiful with the slope back in the day, now it looks painful
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:08 PM
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Just put the titles into YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. or google.

You're preaching to the choir here Dober. I agree, it sucks.

On the other hand if you swapped everyone's showline GSD for a "good" working line dog the GSD would become the new "pitbull."

Let them have their frogs (lol as one article put it, dogs that look like they have a weight tied to their balls) and we'll keep our working lines as working lines. The two "types" can operate independently of each other just fine. It's a free country, after all, and although that isn't the best structure there are lots of showline dogs with good hips. So I would say you can have a frog with good hips, which means the dog isn't really suffering... I don't think? I do feel bad for people who buy a showline dog and think they've bought themselves the Rin Tin Tin of 2010 but they obviously didn't research at all (seriously, 15 minutes on Google will give you the low down on GSD's) and if it has any sort of temperament it will still likely be one of the better dogs they've owned.

At this point I have a much bigger problem with working line people who do not evaluate their breeding dogs honestly (ie, push them through to their Sch III with the help of a super trainer and then breed them with the justification that they got their Sch III...). At least at this point showlines have little to no effect on the working lines, but those people who are polluting the working lines... shame on them.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:41 AM
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On the other hand if you swapped everyone's showline GSD for a "good" working line dog the GSD would become the new "pitbull."
Really...? I don't know about that. German Shepherds have been one of the most popular breeds in the country for a century or so, and surely they haven't always been so messed up by confo breeders.

In my experience, the show line dogs are much more unstable as far as temperament. D: Snappy, loud, and rude. All of the nicely bred working GSDs I've known have been much more stable and predictable, maybe not friendlier, but more well mannered and aloof.
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Old 09-29-2009, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ihartgonzo View Post
Really...? I don't know about that. German Shepherds have been one of the most popular breeds in the country for a century or so, and surely they haven't always been so messed up by confo breeders.

In my experience, the show line dogs are much more unstable as far as temperament. D: Snappy, loud, and rude. All of the nicely bred working GSDs I've known have been much more stable and predictable, maybe not friendlier, but more well mannered and aloof.
Well, there was a time when GSDs were considered "bad" and "scary" along with dobes and rotties, back in the formative years of BSL. A lot of insurance companies still don't like them.

I only have experience with working dogs, except for Tengu who the GSD rescue said was probably a mix of american showline and half west german highlines. Tengu was the PERFECT pet dog, except for her ultra severe separation anxiety that caused explosive diarrhea and mass destruction of our home when she couldn't be in the same room as us. It was such a severe handicap, it's a miracle that a good home for her was ever found. I'm sure not all showlines dogs are that neurotic, but she's the only I have worked with vs. working lines of GSDs and they were all stable and emotionally balanced, despite having more energy and drive.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:09 AM
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Well, while we're posting photos of GSD's.

These are natural poses.

As you can see he's got a long croup. He's kinda slanty when he poses. Otherwise his back is pretty straight.
Wow, he's gorgeous! Is he from a breeder/lines?

THAT is a good looking GSD! If I ever got one, I would only get one like that.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:50 PM
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Thank you Lizmo, he's from a breeder. His mother is from the Slovakian railway patrol kennels and was used as a breeding dog in the Czech border patrol kennel, and his father is the son of a decorated Czech-bred dual purpose K9 in Alabama. His granddam on his father's side is a Leerburg dog and one of his uncles is Leerburg's main stud.

Dan, he sure can jump, and he loves it.

I will post some more photos of him in the next couple of weeks, a few days ago he ripped the pads off of his "thumbs" so I don't want him doing anything "cool" right now.

As for this next part, sorry for being so long winded and off topic... the thread was about to expire so I don't feel too guilty "reviving" it in a different direction, if anyone wants to start a new thread about it be my guest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ihartgonzo View Post
Really...? I don't know about that. German Shepherds have been one of the most popular breeds in the country for a century or so, and surely they haven't always been so messed up by confo breeders.

In my experience, the show line dogs are much more unstable as far as temperament. D: Snappy, loud, and rude. All of the nicely bred working GSDs I've known have been much more stable and predictable, maybe not friendlier, but more well mannered and aloof.
I probably should have said your "average" GSD but I still stand by my first statement. It has nothing to do with the working lines themselves, I love them, they are good dogs, but I just wouldn't trust a ton of people with them.

I am only 18 so I haven't been around for long enough to be able to tell you, from my own experience, when the pit bull breed started to go downhill. But from what I have heard and read, part of the problem was when the breed went out of the hands of the experienced dogfighters and into "pet" homes/people who didn't know what they were doing. Simply because not everyone knows or cares enough about working dog lines to handle them properly, that simple.

From what I have learned, this "my pet is my child" thing wasn't as widely practiced either. People were harder on dogs- which may not be best for the dog's mental health, but at least puttting a dog into avoidance prevent unwanted behaviors. With a working line dog, that is driven and, for instance, might see little squealing children as "prey" you need to be able to redirect or correct or SOMETHING to stop the behavior. Can you imagine the type that goes "no, puppy, please don't"??? It would do nothing, nothing at all. And of course the more the dog does it the more it wants to. There will always be people who get what they want regardless of what more experienced people tell them, we've all seen it happen. To me, it's good that there is a dog out there to fill the niche for a pretty Rin Tin Tin that is significantly toned down.

Most "normal" GSD's I know are happy with a good walk and maybe a bit of fetch. Working lines are more active and intense, it's their trademark. A bored, underexercised, driven dog will find a job. It might be destroying the house or it might be firing up on random dogs on their boring walks. And hell, a lot of people can't seem to handle your average chihuahua's "dog aggression" let alone an 80lb German shepherd. It's pretty common knowledge that bordom and frustration manifest as aggression in dogs and I would say that's especially true with the more intense/driven/aggressively inclined breeds or in this case, lines, and if they were to replace show dogs there would be a lot more bored and frustrated working GSD's around.

On another thread, someone was trying to decide on a GSD line and many were discouraging him/her from getting a working line dog because it might be "too much"- and he/she was doing his/her research and wanted to join a Schutzhund or agility club. The general population, who just wants a pet or something to trot around the ring with, getting a dog like that? Please, no. They make fine pets if you take into account that they aren't really meant to be "pets" at all. Hence the whole working part.

Nextly.

The pit bull cases that get the most media attention are not dogs that bite in defense. It's the cases where the dogs have mauled and have to be shot off or stabbed or beaten off the victims that really get people. Now who knows for sure what really is going through those dogs' heads, but that does not sound like bad nerves to me. Bad nerves is CHOMP "GET AWAY FROM ME" not finding someone, who is very likely intimidated, and then biting and holding on while the person screams and thrashes trying to escape, and then continuing to attack while enduring extensive bodily harm. When I hear of situations like that, I think of prey drive- for instance, my dog holding a llama's hind leg while being dragged around, kicked, bounced off trees, etc, and loving it the whole time. That was not him being "unstable" or "weak nerved" or wired wrong, that was a dog who had a mind designed to tell it that if something looks fun to bite, try biting it, and if it's fun keep doing it. The whole point of working lines is they are supposed to be courageous enough to bite when they feel inclined and driven/ tenacious enough to continue. Now the dog-llama example that I used is because my dog was not appropriately directed on a proper attitude towards llamas- but he certainly wasn't encouraged. He took it upon himself and after the initial incident it took some training to change his behavior toward them.

And once they hit the papers a little bit, you'd better believe the "badazzez" would take an interest in them. Especially with the lines that tend to be sharper, it would be pretty easy with undersocialization and some encouragement to get a pretty nasty dog. The media would certainly have plenty of material to work with, what with Schutzhund and everything.
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  #10  
Old 09-30-2009, 06:02 PM
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Yikes!!! That video was disturbing.

Can you imagine Czech and DDR dogs with all that defense, low thresholds and sharpness in the wrong hands?! I'm glad the public views those dogs in the video as GSD's and dont really know about working lines.
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