Culling puppies

[Dizzy]

I know this has been discussed to DEATH! And I am not looking for a discussion, just airing a thought.

I just read this:

The best way is for you, the breeder, to cull those white-factored puppies at birth, and then to forget them and enjoy your healthy, sound litter. Another option is to simply do a solid to merle breeding, and eliminate the possibility of the homozygous merle.

It just made me sad And then angry

It encapsulates EVERYTHING I hate about breeding dogs. Oh and this is from the breed club.

Australian Shepherd Club of America, inc | Facts Breeding

[4dogs3cats]

I agree. Perfectly healthy puppies that can go to a pet only home.

But then I also disagree with e-spaying oops litters. Again, never will be a show prospect, but still perfectly healthy puppies.

[bubbatd]

I can remember when white GS and Boxers were culled . Sad !

[FoxyWench]

if the puppies were so unwell (ie born very deformed and unable to live a good life) then i agree with humane euthanization...
but kiulling a puppy at birth simply because its white, deaf dogs can learn faster than dogs who can hear thanks to hand signals and body language being much easier to learn, blind dogs can live long happy lives in a home willing to work with the dog (and not move the furniture too often)

i find this kind of attitude discusting, there are more than enough wonderfull homes out there that would be happy to offer a wonderfull forver home to a special needs dog.
a puppy like this should be sent home spay/neutered or on a STRICT contract to spay/neuter and some real strict followups on it...
but killed simply because?!

Sick...

there are definatly aspects of breed clubs and confirmation that discust me...this "cull it and forget it" attitude makes me sick...

[Romy]

Hmm....well, I think that if you have a puppy with an obvious severe deformity or condition with no hope of recovery and that would make life nothing but pain (this includes some mental illness, as a dog that is so terrified of everything that it attacks everything is both dangerous and suffering) then yeah it's probably best to let it go.

I do not think that deafness/blindness fall into that category. Euthanizing double merle pups on speculation is just that, you don't even know if they are affected by those problems or not. They could be totally fine.

Then again, I don't agree with double merle breedings anyway. I do not think it's ethical to do a breeding with substantial potential for problems like that to begin with, and wouldn't do business with someone who did. To me that would be like breeding two dysplastic dogs together, hoping for the best, then euthanizing the ones that didn't turn out healthy.

[Renee750il]

Originally Posted by Romy

Then again, I don't agree with double merle breedings anyway. I do not think it's ethical to do a breeding with substantial potential for problems like that to begin with, and wouldn't do business with someone who did. To me that would be like breeding two dysplastic dogs together, hoping for the best, then euthanizing the ones that didn't turn out healthy.

This. Even contemplating a double merle breeding is reprehensible in my view of the world. I've had an Aussie who was the result of a double merle, O'Riley. He was an amazing animal, born blind (both eyes severely deformed), but he was the bravest creature I've ever known, brilliantly intelligent, and totally affectionate and devoted to us. He would even leave his food, knowing there were other dogs around, in order to be petted. I never once regretted bringing him home from the pound, where he was about to be euthed, since no one wanted a 3 month old, high energy, blind puppy, but whoever bred him should be strung up.

[Dizzy]

Why is this in the puppy forum now?

It was a general dog discussion.

Dogs - General Dog Chat
Chat about anything and everything dog.

Any chance it can go back please?

[lizzybeth727]

Like the others, I agree with culling puppies with obvious, life-altering deformaties.

I also don't agree with merle X merle breedings, and wouldn't support a breeder who did.

That said, I don't disagree with culling blind and/or deaf puppies. I think that these dogs would have to go to relatively experienced, dog-savy homes, and homes like that that are willing to take in a special needs dog are becoming few and far between. Personally, I would not take a blind puppy (though if my dog went blind later in life, obviously I'd keep her). And if I wouldn't do it, why should I expect someone else to do it?

I would take a deaf puppy..... In fact one day I hope to rescue a deaf dog, I think it would be an interesting training challenge.

[FoxyWench]

actually lizzy its EASIER to train a deaf dog than it is to train a hearing dog...
the biggest challeng is recal since they cant here you and most people training deaf dogs for recall use a vibrating collar (or ligths at night). but hand signals dont have to be "official" (i make most of mine up when i was working with my past deaf dog and the deaf foster dog) and dogs learn hand signals MUCH quicker/easier than they do human words.

blind dogs just need ot be trained on verbal commands and need a person whos willing to build confidence through guidence (the dog must trust its owner) and one whos willing to keep their house layout how it is and keep a routein...most blind dogs learn they way around a new place in no time, ok so they bump into a few things in the beginning but there no harder to train than having a dog who can see...
my friend has a blind aussie who runs agility, obedience and frestyle...in truth if you didnt look at her face you would have absolutly no idea she had no vision (shes missing both her eyes)

blind dogs are certainly a little more of a challeng than most deaf dogs, but neither are so disabled that they are hard to train...
i think the lessening number of people willing to take on "disabled" dogs is based on 1: having the "prefect dog" people forget that these dogs can be just as if not even more perfect...King, my dane growing up was my angel, he was 100% deaf and blind in one eye but he was smart as a whip and will alsways be my first true heart dog...
and 2: based on the fact that most think raising these "special needs" dogs is going to be millions times more "challenging" than raising a normal puppy...in truth, its the exact same, you just modify the training method a little.



thus far every deaf dog ive had trained easier than those with perfect hearing, and ive never seen dogs bond as strongly to their people as those with vision impairments.

[LauraLeigh]

Originally Posted by FoxyWench

actually lizzy its EASIER to train a deaf dog than it is to train a hearing dog...
the biggest challeng is recal since they cant here you and most people training deaf dogs for recall use a vibrating collar (or ligths at night). but hand signals dont have to be "official" (i make most of mine up when i was working with my past deaf dog and the deaf foster dog) and dogs learn hand signals MUCH quicker/easier than they do human words.

blind dogs just need ot be trained on verbal commands and need a person whos willing to build confidence through guidence (the dog must trust its owner) and one whos willing to keep their house layout how it is and keep a routein...most blind dogs learn they way around a new place in no time, ok so they bump into a few things in the beginning but there no harder to train than having a dog who can see...
my friend has a blind aussie who runs agility, obedience and frestyle...in truth if you didnt look at her face you would have absolutly no idea she had no vision (shes missing both her eyes)

blind dogs are certainly a little more of a challeng than most deaf dogs, but neither are so disabled that they are hard to train...
i think the lessening number of people willing to take on "disabled" dogs is based on 1: having the "prefect dog" people forget that these dogs can be just as if not even more perfect...King, my dane growing up was my angel, he was 100% deaf and blind in one eye but he was smart as a whip and will alsways be my first true heart dog...
and 2: based on the fact that most think raising these "special needs" dogs is going to be millions times more "challenging" than raising a normal puppy...in truth, its the exact same, you just modify the training method a little.



thus far every deaf dog ive had trained easier than those with perfect hearing, and ive never seen dogs bond as strongly to their people as those with vision impairments.

Off topic, but while I think doing obedience is great, I cannot imagine doing agility with a blind dog.... I am pretty sure you would not even be allowed at the venues I compete at...

I have a fully blind dog, and have competed at agility, I just cannot imagine how it would work... How would they know when to jump, where the end of the contact eq. is? I can't even imagine letting Di on contact eq. without vision, what if she tripped?

I think letting a blind dog on agility eq. is very unsafe, no matter how well trained the dog is!! I just can't wrap my brain around that.... Di is so good in her own environment, that many have been shocked to hear she is blind, even away from home she does well when verbally reassured. I had her at the Vets today for her check up and one of the people in the waiting room was amazed how quickly she adapts... but I still would never do agility with her.

ON topic....

I see no reason to cull (as in kill) pups that will be healthy but don't meet a standard, etc... These pups can go to pet homes, Pups that have a serious issue that will affect their quality of life I do understand...

I don't know much about the Merle issues, but would, from what I do know, never do a breeding that had a high chance of ill pups...