Question about choke chains

[opokki]

I took this quote from another thread but I have heard this on more than one ocassion and I'm not sure I understand.....

It is a small pull and it is the noise of the slip chain that is the correction. The dog should not move or be pulled physically at all.

Without yanking on or otherwise tightening the collar how does the sound of the chain come to have meaning to the dog as a correction?

[bridey_01]

You are exactly right oppoki. Also, many trainers will claim that their check-trained dogs are highly motivated by praise and work happily. If this were true there would be no use for the corrections. Operant-based training techniques have no need for any physical (or audial) reprimand, it is the trainers job to motivate the animal to do what they want it to of it's own free will. That is training with finesse.

[Manchesters]

You are exactly right oppoki. Also, many trainers will claim that their check-trained dogs are highly motivated by praise and work happily. If this were true there would be no use for the corrections. Operant-based training techniques have no need for any physical (or audial) reprimand, it is the trainers job to motivate the animal to do what they want it to of it's own free will. That is training with finesse.

Seems to me Arienne has been using your methods........didn't I just see the poor girl posting for HELP with Gunnar, that these things weren't working??????? I think you mean audible. Ain't being a smart arse but after reading what you posted, I couldn't even get the right pronunciation out of my mouth, rofl.

[Manchesters]

You are exactly right oppoki. Also, many trainers will claim that their check-trained dogs are highly motivated by praise and work happily. If this were true there would be no use for the corrections. Operant-based training techniques have no need for any physical (or audial) reprimand, it is the trainers job to motivate the animal to do what they want it to of it's own free will. That is training with finesse.

<<Difference #1. Traditional Training presents information in big blocks. Operant training presents information broken down into tiny approximations.

In Traditional Training the dog is expected to perform at a Terminal Response level, and anything less than this is "corrected" in some manner. In operant training, because behavior is built in tiny steps, whoever is getting trained has many opportunities for reinforcement. This has the long-term effect of making the behavior very strong; and also the tiny steps are much easier to assimilate. In this interchange the trainer's efforts are reinforced also. Success begets Success.>>

In other words, Traditional is for dogs with brains, and Operant is for dogs who are somewhat retarded, correct? My Dobe learned just about execise in 3 times showing him. Any correction was the good old pop of the collar simply to get that extra 1% from him to make it militaryily precise. Max and I were both perfectionists. If I had tried "tiny steps" he would have fallen asleep, roflmbo.

[Manchesters]

You are exactly right oppoki. Also, many trainers will claim that their check-trained dogs are highly motivated by praise and work happily. If this were true there would be no use for the corrections. Operant-based training techniques have no need for any physical (or audial) reprimand, it is the trainers job to motivate the animal to do what they want it to of it's own free will. That is training with finesse.
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Tonight I decided to try the "pinch" collar on Gunnar on our walk. We have been working on our issue with other dogs and not much seems to be working so I thought I would give it a go. We encountered three dogs on our walk, two tied up and one being walked. He was pretty responsive to the corrections when we passed the two that were tied up but I got no response from corrections when the one being walked passed us. It was on the opposite side of the street. I gave the leave it command and asked him to sit. He sat for a moment, got praised and then went nutty, he had no concern with the fact that I was giving him a pop.
What finally worked was me getting right in front of him, keeping him in the sit and blocking his view of the other dog. I then told him to focus which he did for about 7 seconds. Then I stood up and right away he was looking all over for the other dog. Miserable curr .
Guess we need to try some other training options.

Now of course it CAN'T be the training method--it has to be that either she hasn't tried it long enough, or she isn't doing it right---RIGHT! Or could it be that the poor pup should have been trained "traditionally" from the start??? :D :)
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[Manchesters]

I took this quote from another thread but I have heard this on more than one ocassion and I'm not sure I understand.....

Without yanking on or otherwise tightening the collar how does the sound of the chain come to have meaning to the dog as a correction?

Do you remember Pavlov and the ringing bell? It is called conditioned reflex or response. Eventually you only have to jingle the collar for the dog to know to "try again". Not that it really matters.....the pop of the collar is so slight as it is that eventually the dog knows as soon as it hears the noise the collar makes during the pop that is all it takes.

[Doberluv]

........didn't I just see the poor girl posting for HELP with Gunnar, that these things weren't working???????

Lot's of people say these things aren't working, but it's often the person attempting to train who isn't working...who isn't doing it right.

I use this method and have fantastic results.

Yesterday, in fact I took out my clicker and in one session, Lyric's lagging heel became 100% cleaner, including about turns. I never once had to correct, jerk, speak...nothing. While he would lag, I'd just keep walking, when he would get in the right position, I'd click and give a treat, keep on walking. As long as he stayed in the correct position, he got C/T often. He might lag again and I'd keep walking....no treat, no attention, just keep walking, looking straight ahead, but soon he realized where he had to be in order to get the treat and then he would catch up quickly right along side my leg. He'll forget and it will take more practice, but it's no different than the pop the leash method. They can forget with that too until it's ingrained. But the difference is, it's more fun and the dog works harder and learns better for reward than to avoid punishment. Why pop a leash and make it less pleasant if you don't have to? There is absolutely no reason to train ANY dog using such compulsive methods. I think that the saying, "all dogs are different and need different methods" is way overused. I think virtually all dogs will work for reward if the motivation needed is found by the trainer. All animals, including humans, work for a reward. What on earth do we do which has absolutely no payoff? Nothing. Anything I do needs to have some sort of reward. I might try something once or twice, but when nothing whatsoever comes of it for me, I won't repeat it anymore. It might be that I'm doing something for someone else where there is no direct benefit to me, but there will have to be some payoff...maybe it makes me feel good inside that someone else feels good because I did that for them. Whatever....there has to be a payoff to increase the odds of continuing repitition of a behavior. This is about learning behavior. It is widespread and it is fact, scientifically proven. This is not about individual breeds, temperaments or different species. It is about any animal with a thinking brain who needs food to survive and knows how to get it. It is about inherant needs which drive behavior and learning.

If anyone says that motivating a dog to want to survive by offering what it needs for survival... isn't helping shape it's behavior is doing something wrong. It is not the dog not wanting to survive and eat. It's not the dog's inability to learn. We see well trained dogs all the time and dogs trained with operant conditioning. What does that leave? It's how the owner/trainer is doing it. They're not getting the timing of reward or something. It takes some reading and practice, like anything else.

[Adrienne]

Now of course it CAN'T be the training method--it has to be that either she hasn't tried it long enough, or she isn't doing it right---RIGHT! Or could it be that the poor pup should have been trained "traditionally" from the start??? :D :)
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Poor pup huh? When I train him using positive reinforcement I don't get the ears plastered back to his skull with the look, "why did you do that to me mama, I'm sorry". He doesn't get physical reprimands, it confuses him and then he is unwilling to train.

Also I know how to properly use a check chain, have used one numerous times in the past with all the dogs I have had before Gunnar. I understand the proper technique but I don't like watching my dog "melt down" when he doesn't get whats going on.

I will most likely continue to use the check chain on our walks to help finish up his heel. Since I only have time to walk Katya and Gunnar together it is hard to use treats to ask him to heel, big old Katya gets in the way! We will keep working on the other dog issue, that is why I signed him up for obediance training in September.

Just wanted to add how proud I was of Gunnar yesterday, we went to a childrens fair put on by our church and he was wonderful. He had up to five children petting him at a time and he soaked it up. No biting or jumping, even when he saw the llama's and goats he was a peach. Got tons of compliments on what a good boy he was, and so young too!

[Doberluv]

Way to go Adrienne! He does sound like a good boy. And it is hard to walk more than one dog at a time and try to train one with the other in the way.

Poor pup huh? When I train him using positive reinforcement I don't get the ears plastered back to his skull with the look, "why did you do that to me mama, I'm sorry". He doesn't get physical reprimands, it confuses him and then he is unwilling to train.
Yup...there's no better way to ruin a dog's motivation to learn and work. Conversly, working for reward only motivates a dog and makes them unworried to try something new. They just excell.



It's amazing what that clicker has done with cleaning up Lyric's obedience skills. He understands exactly.....precisely what I mean when he hears that distinctive click marking out what he just did to get the treat. Yesterday he got fat free hot dogs for the first time. I sliced them lengthwise down the middle twice and then across in tiny, tiny pieces, microwaved them for a few minutes and dried them with a paper towel and cooled them. That way they're not so slimey and greasy. Wow! He thought those were the greatest. He was sooooo willing to figure out what I wanted and concentrated on the job. After a while, when he gets things down pat, I'll go onto more like a random treating to keep him from getting too dependent on the treats, but that's later.

I have these make-shift jumps set up in my yard and a teeter totter and weave poles....collecting more stuff for agility. He was not exactly wanting to go over the lounge chair I had for a jump. LOL. He would do the other two and go around the lounge chair. He's out ahead of me a little when he's running and jumping. I tell him jump, jump, jump. He got praised and treated for jumping two out of three jumps. Then after a bit, I stopped treating him for just doing the two. I still told him "yeah.." because he HAS to have fun doing this. Not only would a collar correction wreck his fun, but I couldn't do it anyhow because he's off leash and way ahead of me. LOL. I just didn't give him a hotdog. After a couple tries, he decided he better try harder in order to get the hotdog, so viola! He went over the first two jumps and straight on over the lounge chair. He got the rest of the baggie of hot dog pieces. And lots of jumping and cheering. LOL.

[Adrienne]

That's so great Doberluv, how old is Lyric now? Sounds like you too have a lot of fun working on agility. When we were at the fair yesterday, (it's held in a park) I had Gunnar going down the slide and climbing through the tunnels, he even made it up the net ladder :eek: . All the kids got the biggest kick out of him and he was working for nothing but praise and the joy of doing it and having fun.

Katya will be going home to my mom hopefully in the next few weeks, then it will be much easier to work with Gunnar on our walks, I will go straight back to working with the clicker and praise as soon as it is just us two. In the meantime I am walking a 140lb Katya and a 77lb Gunnar in a busy part of our city, I need to be able to maintain control over both of them at all times and it is easier with the halti on Katya and the pinch on Gunnar, just for other people's safety sake from Katya and my own sanity for Gunnar when we pass another dog.

[Doberluv]

Wow! Gunner is brave to go on the net ladder!!!! It is so nice to hear how well Gunner is doing with the kids and everything. I can understand the need for safety with those big dogs when out on a walk. I'd almost want to seat belt them into a baby walker with remote control brakes on it. My goodness! 140 LBS! Holy moly.

Lyric just turned two Aug 6th and he's 93 -95 LBS. Lyric is still apprehensive to go on the teeter totter....can't quite figure out where his back legs are, but he did it last time in class, but here yesterday it took several tries and then he finally did it all the way to the end. LOL. He's a little chicken about that after falling off. So, we're rewarding baby steps and if he jumps off early, that's ok for now. Gradually we'll get him confident again. Big wuss. He's still such a puppy in many ways.

[Adrienne]

You should see me when we get to a corner that is blocked by bushes...extremely tight heel from Katya...that's when I get a bit nervous. I could just see a skateboarder come tearing around the corner and Katya getting ahold of them...not something I ever want to deal with! It is tough having a dog like that, she is such a liability, I will breath a sigh of relief when she goes back home where she belongs...out in the country with nothing around for miles! Gunnar will miss her terribly and poor Neva is going to have to take the brunt of his play when Katya is gone. It is going to be an interesting adjustment period for us!

Lyric sounds like he is doing really well. I am sure he will soon figure out the teeter. How does he do in the weave polls? Those look like a pain for bigger dogs, I know they are spaced further apart but it would still be hard navigating something like that. Good luck with your training and good luck to Lyric!

[Manchesters]

Poor pup huh? When I train him using positive reinforcement I don't get the ears plastered back to his skull with the look, "why did you do that to me mama, I'm sorry". He doesn't get physical reprimands, it confuses him and then he is unwilling to train.

Also I know how to properly use a check chain, have used one numerous times in the past with all the dogs I have had before Gunnar. I understand the proper technique but I don't like watching my dog "melt down" when he doesn't get whats going on.

Well, know, if you were using the choke chain properly, you dog wouldn't "melt down" now, would he!!?

[yuckaduck]

Back to the choke collars, I use one with Yukon and it works miracles. I had someone actually show me exactly how to use it and what sort of reaction I should get. I was doing the pop abit to hard initially but now just a wiggle of the chain and the boy is right back paying attention. The sound is more of an attention grabber, reminding the doggy that you are still there. There is nothing wrong with using a choke collar and the ones preaching their way just need to remember that there are many ways to train. All having there good points and bad. That includes choke collars, pinch collars, halti's or gentle leaders and positive reinforcement. Please don't start the debate again on who is better and what is better. Stick to the question there is no need for arguments at all.

[Adrienne]

Well, know, if you were using the choke chain properly, you dog wouldn't "melt down" now, would he!!?

Just like you claim we don't/can't understand your dogs personalities/behaviors, you can't have any idea of what kind of dog Gunnar is and what kinds of reactions he has. I raise my voice to him and he plasters his ears back, walk toward him in a threating manner, ears plastered back, give him a special look, ears plastered back. We work great as a team, he knows when I am unhappy with his behavior and doesn't necessarily need a correction to get him back on track. He just wants to make his mama happy.

But whatever Manchester, I'm over you and your critizisms. Thanks for all your well meaning posts :)

[Doberluv]

Adrienne, Lyric is very exuberant when he goes through the weave poles and is learning how to bend. He's getting quite good at it and stays in tight. When the dog enters the weave poles, he MUST do so, leading with his left shoulder. That's another thing the clicker was so good at marking for him. Two or three times and he was consistant, no matter what direction he was coming from or where I was standing. He knows he has to enter with his left shoulder or he'll get disqualified. (He knows all the rules. LOL)

Well, it sounds like there will be an adustment now that you've all gotten attached to Katya. But on the other hand, it will be easier and better for her too to be out in the country.

I know what you mean about sensative. I can just see me correcting my little 5 lb girl Chihuahua with a leash pop. Talk about melt down. She'd slither into the ground. "I'm melting...I'm melting."

Nope....it's reward or nothing for my dogs when training. Lyric is sensative, but not in that way. If I gave him a leash pop, he'd probably just keep going, but it really wouldn't tell him anything much except, "you did that wrong. Shape up buster." And then he'd say, "*****, what's your problem? Why on earth do you keep doing that noisy, yanking chain thingy on my neck? It is so annoying! Why don't you tell me what it is you DO want....actually, forget it. This training is for the birds. I'm thinking we should go for a hike or, hey..what's that over there? Let's go see that. Are we done yet? Got anything to eat?" This way, he's thinking, "Oooooo, I just got a hot dog! Yum. Hmmm, what did I do just now to get that? Oh yeah....catch up with her. Ok, here I come. Is this good? Is this good? Oh, not enough? OK....how 'bout this? Woo hooo, I just got another hot dog and oh my....what's she doing? She's jumping up and down and playing. OMG! another hot dog! Now I know what I'm suppose to be doing. This training is fun. OK....what should I do next? Tell me, tell me, show me. I'm sooooo ready for this. Teach me a new trick! I am so smart to be able to do this. She's so nice to me. Nothing hurts or is scary and I don't get any suprises that I don't understand. This is pure fun." LOL. :D

[Doberluv]

and the ones preaching their way just need to remember that there are many ways to train. Preaching?

Please don't start the debate again on who is better and what is better. Stick to the question there is no need for arguments at all.

Why not? Are you the new thread regulator? For those of us who want to talk operant conditioning, we're preaching and arguing. For those of you who like to talk about punishment based training, it's..."many ways to train" and sticking to the question. (?)

Here's the question: Without yanking on or otherwise tightening the collar how does the sound of the chain come to have meaning to the dog as a correction?

Here's the answer: The sound of the chain and choke collars give very little meaning in the way of learning what to do to a dog. They only tell the dog that he did something wrong and tell the dog that his owner does weird, unpleasant things to him and if he doesn't watch his step, he's going to get another correction.

[bridey_01]

You don't know what audial means?lol, it IS a real word!
As for check chains, they're just unessecary if you have some basic understanding of animal behaviour. Some people use them EXTREMELY harshly, others use them like just a little whisper, not evening tightening around the throat. Some use it to grab the dogs attention, others use it to basically correct EVERYTHING but the behaviour they want, which is actually extremely funny in terms of claiming motivation and willingness on the dogs part!
Correcting all behaviours that arn't the one you want is so much harder than just showing the dog the behaviour you want it to do! Basically it is a crude tool, not really needed and mostly unused in good training schools. Lately they are even being taken off the shelves in pet stores and being banned from the grounds at training schools.
Also, it is so limited. You can train a dog to do ANYTHING with a clicker, shake, play dead, roll over, say your prayers (hell, my kelpie says HELLO!).

[Doberluv]

Did you mean Audile?

one whose mental imagery is auditory rather than visual or motor?

Why do you bring that up? Did my little story give you some kind of impression of me? LOL!!!

I love what your Kelpie does. Too cute! And you are so right on.

[yuckaduck]

Preaching?



Why not? Are you the new thread regulator? For those of us who want to talk operant conditioning, we're preaching and arguing. For those of you who like to talk about punishment based training, it's..."many ways to train" and sticking to the question. (?)

Here's the question:

Here's the answer: The sound of the chain and choke collars give very little meaning in the way of learning what to do to a dog. They only tell the dog that he did something wrong and tell the dog that his owner does weird, unpleasant things to him and if he doesn't watch his step, he's going to get another correction.
Thank you very much I truely appreciate your image of me. Nice sure makes me trust everything you say, Not. This is not the first time you have bashed me so I guess it is time to add you to my ignore list. Very sad indeed.
Well Yukon has been much better and if he thinks I'm weird then so be it, better than being sued because he bit someone.

[Manchesters]

Just like you claim we don't/can't understand your dogs personalities/behaviors, you can't have any idea of what kind of dog Gunnar is and what kinds of reactions he has. I raise my voice to him and he plasters his ears back, walk toward him in a threating manner, ears plastered back, give him a special look, ears plastered back. We work great as a team, he knows when I am unhappy with his behavior and doesn't necessarily need a correction to get him back on track. He just wants to make his mama happy.

But whatever Manchester, I'm over you and your critizisms. Thanks for all your well meaning posts :)

Just in case no one has ever explained it to you.....read this carefully.......The majority of large breed males go through a very frustrating stage that begins at about age 8 months. Suddenly they begin to NOTICE things......and to freak out. It first happened with Max, and was very embarrassing.....because I did not know then what I later learned. I had walked him around the same HUGE city block in White Plains, N.Y. for several months. All of a sudden he noticed the big black trash bags lined up along the driveways of the apartment bldgs. He would put on the brakes and start growling, with his hair on end. I would have to walk him over to the bags and explain what NICE trash bags they were, rofl. After he got over the bags, he started NOTICING the street signs......."No Parking This Side Of Street", school crossing signs with the little boy and girl in silhouette, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I had a pup after I moved down here that I got from a back yard breeder at only 4 weeks of age. I used to walk him around the same blocks from 6 weeks old on up. At 8 months of age, he suddenly started NOTICING the darned mail boxes, and would slink past each one on his belly. There were lots of mail boxes!!!!!

Finally he got over the mail boxes.......whew!!!!! Hah!!!!! Then he started NOTICING the overhead electrical wires!!!!! YA JUST CAN'T WIN!!!!!!! But he finally got over those, and by then was out of the frackey stage.

Soooooo, if Gunnar starts acting strange, do not let it phase you. He will eventually get over it, and will get over his overly sensitive stage. Just pray for patience.

Oh, I wasn't criticizing you......just having a chuckle at your expense. You have done it with me..........!

[Doberluv]

Bahsed you????? How is that? I only react against someone trying to control who can talk about what. Positive trainers are preaching so don't talk about that. (But you can go ahead and talk about your choke chains and how wonderful they are.) We are not going to debate this or argue opinions. We will stick to the question and nothing else. Isn't that what your meaning was? Before you are so quick to think you're being bashed, take a look at what you are writing first. You're darn right I'll balk at that type of thing...just like a dog will who is pushed and overly dominated will. We'll take it for so long and then no more.

[Manchesters]

You don't know what audial means?lol, it IS a real word!
As for check chains, they're just unessecary if you have some basic understanding of animal behaviour. Some people use them EXTREMELY harshly, others use them like just a little whisper, not evening tightening around the throat. Some use it to grab the dogs attention, others use it to basically correct EVERYTHING but the behaviour they want, which is actually extremely funny in terms of claiming motivation and willingness on the dogs part!
Correcting all behaviours that arn't the one you want is so much harder than just showing the dog the behaviour you want it to do! Basically it is a crude tool, not really needed and mostly unused in good training schools. Lately they are even being taken off the shelves in pet stores and being banned from the grounds at training schools.
Also, it is so limited. You can train a dog to do ANYTHING with a clicker, shake, play dead, roll over, say your prayers (hell, my kelpie says HELLO!).

Of course you show the dog what you want it to do before you even begin training on leash and collar!!!!!!!! At least I did. How can you expect a dog to SIT unless you have told it what SIT means!!! And the same for DOWN. And STAY. The only time you need leash and collar is for HEELING. By then the dog should already know all the other commands and they should then be incorporated into the heeling work. I used the choke chain only to keep the dog connected to me, and because it was required in the obedience ring. Max and Misty were both trained off lead for the most part after they had learned their stuff!!!!!

I don't know where you get this punishment crap from that you keep spewing forth. I shudder to think what people do to their dogs "Down under". Must sure be abusive!!!!!!!!!!

[Doberluv]

You're right Manchesters. That is sooo true and so perplexing when our dogs do this stuff. They can't generalize very well either. If they see and get use to a sign on the left side of the street, then they see the same thing on the right....oooooo, a whole different ball game. LOL. Same with horses. They can get fine with something on one side of their body, like electric hair clippers but try it on the right side and watch out. LOL.

But, using corrections wouldn't help Adrienne's dog if it's concerned about something. It sounds like you didn't do that either. You told your dog how wonderful those black garbage bags were....nice, nice bags. LOL.

[yuckaduck]

Back to the choke collars, I use one with Yukon and it works miracles. I had someone actually show me exactly how to use it and what sort of reaction I should get. I was doing the pop abit to hard initially but now just a wiggle of the chain and the boy is right back paying attention. The sound is more of an attention grabber, reminding the doggy that you are still there. There is nothing wrong with using a choke collar and the ones preaching their way just need to remember that there are many ways to train. All having there good points and bad. That includes choke collars, pinch collars, halti's or gentle leaders and positive reinforcement. Please don't start the debate again on who is better and what is better. Stick to the question there is no need for arguments at all.
I don't see anyone controlling anything or saying who can and can't talk. I see an opinion of someone who would rather not fight. I also see no bashing of any way of training. Sorry for those who read this as something that it is not.

[Doberluv]

Yuckaduck, I appologize for misinterpretting your post. I thought that you meant that we shouldn't debate the subject about which way is better. In your post, you talked about how successful your choke chain was and described a little about it. And I read your post to mean that after that, there's no need to talk about positive training methods and that we weren't going to argue the points.

I am sorry if I was too sensative to a feeling of being controlled. I do sometimes have a problem with that. That is one reason I abhor harsh training methods and over control of an animal. I'll try to keep this from a personal nature in the future and stick to talking about the issues. I would never intend to hurt you or anyone. I am tending toward assertiveness though and speaking my mind. I guess that's what makes my dogs behave. I don't use a choke collar but I do have an attitude. Sorry. Hope we can be friends.

[Mordy]

In other words, Traditional is for dogs with brains, and Operant is for dogs who are somewhat retarded, correct?

ugh, ignorance.

[yuckaduck]

Yuckaduck, I appologize for misinterpretting your post. I thought that you meant that we shouldn't debate the subject about which way is better. In your post, you talked about how successful your choke chain was and described a little about it. And I read your post to mean that after that, there's no need to talk about positive training methods and that we weren't going to argue the points.

I am sorry if I was too sensative to a feeling of being controlled. I do sometimes have a problem with that. That is one reason I abhor harsh training methods and over control of an animal. I'll try to keep this from a personal nature in the future and stick to talking about the issues. I would never intend to hurt you or anyone. I am tending toward assertiveness though and speaking my mind. I guess that's what makes my dogs behave. I don't use a choke collar but I do have an attitude. Sorry. Hope we can be friends.
No problem and sorry if it sounded that way somethimes when we type things how we mean it and how it is read are two completely different things. Go ahead and argue all you want. Like I said good and bad to all different sorts of training. Not just one way works and that is it. Many many different forms and I bash none.

[Manchesters]

ugh, ignorance.

Well, at least you are honest enough to admit it, Mordy, roflmao.

Total ignorance of what is a pun.

[Manchesters]

You're right Manchesters. That is sooo true and so perplexing when our dogs do this stuff. They can't generalize very well either. If they see and get use to a sign on the left side of the street, then they see the same thing on the right....oooooo, a whole different ball game. LOL. Same with horses. They can get fine with something on one side of their body, like electric hair clippers but try it on the right side and watch out. LOL.

But, using corrections wouldn't help Adrienne's dog if it's concerned about something. It sounds like you didn't do that either. You told your dog how wonderful those black garbage bags were....nice, nice bags. LOL.

White Plains is the County seat of Westchester County, and at that time had a huge population. We lived on Route 22, aka the Post Road aka the Boston Post Road. And Broadway and Main were right at the heart. Hundreds of people out on the sidewalks, and here is me, trying to drag Max past the street signs, and him hugging the sidewalk and looking up at the signs and growling. It wouldn't have been so bad if it were any other breed than a DOBERMAN!!!!!!! Rofl.

[Doberluv]

Yeah...that would be pretty embarrassing coming from a Doberman. Lyric is kind of a wuss when it comes to the teeter totter. I gotta get off this board and go work on it with him. LOL. No wonder. I spend too much time here and not enough practicing what I preach.

Why would you say that operant conditioning methods are for retarded dogs? My Lyric is quite a smart dog and picks up things quickly....really quicker than any other dog I've had. I just go about showing him in what I find to be a more fun way. Yesterday when he was afraid to go on the teeter totter, I coaxed him up onto it with just his front feet and gave him a treat. Then he got back down. We tried again and this time he got all four feet on it and jumped back off. Again....he did the same thing, only this time he got no treat, but I didn't scold or give him a correction of any type. Then again....back on and this time, he took a few more steps and got about half way before he bailed. I praised him for this big accomplishment. He's afraid of it because he hurt himself on it one time a while back. And one more try and he made it all the way to the end where it went down the other side. Wooooo hooooo....big treat and praise. We ended that session right there so I wouldn't risk him flaking out and not doing it...wanted to end with success as the last thing he did. If I had expected him to do the whole thing in one try, I would have had to force him by holding him onto it, (which I probably couldn't physically do anyhow) He would have been very frightened and not enjoyed it at all. I'm afraid he would not have as much fun doing agility at all if it's made to be a drugery. So, baby steps are easier and still rewarding and soon enough he gets onto it. The other things; the weave poles, the wall, the jumps, tunnel, shute, tire jump, he's great at and loves....If he is dampened in any way, it is well known by agility people that it will ruin their drive and speed. It has to be fun and rewarding and nothing negative about it. So if there's something that is difficult for them, you have to be careful how it's handled.

He's not retarded. His back legs are further apart than his front and the teeter totter is very narrow. He's young and doesn't know quite where his back feet are going. You should see how quickly he's catching onto what the words, "jump left, jump right, go jump" mean....the difference. I can set the jumps parallel to the way he's running and I'm way behind him. I tell him "jump left" and he goes over a jump from right to left and then I say, "jump right" and he knows to go from the left side of the next jump across it going right. I didn't even think he knew those words yet. I've just started this. And there's no way I can show him because he goes too fast for me to keep up. He's terribly exuberant and joyful while he's running and jumping. Sometimes I can see all of his front teeth. He smiles!

Of course he is not wearing a leash. So doing something with a collar wouldn't show him anything even if I could reach him. So, what do you attribute this understanding from him to? Do you really think he's retarded?

[bridey_01]

Lol, yes, they do go through that fear period a couple of times, serves wolves well in the wild and something our dogs still have. Manchesters, you must use the choker sparingly, how do you show your dogs what you want, is it the old push down on butt thing for sit?
As for how I've seen it used, for down they pull down on the choker and apply pressure to the back (can cause hip displasia in some breeds), pull up on choker and push down on butt for sit, check check check check for heel. When do you put a cue on the behaviour? How do you teach the retrieve and directed retrieve?

[bridey_01]

Doberluv, to teach a dog where his back legs are place a ladder on the floor in a hallway and call him over it. The more they walk through it the faster they learn.

[Manchesters]

Yeah...that would be pretty embarrassing coming from a Doberman. Lyric is kind of a wuss when it comes to the teeter totter. I gotta get off this board and go work on it with him. LOL. No wonder. I spend too much time here and not enough practicing what I preach.

Why would you say that operant conditioning methods are for retarded dogs? My Lyric is quite a smart dog and picks up things quickly....really quicker than any other dog I've had. I just go about showing him in what I find to be a more fun way. Yesterday when he was afraid to go on the teeter totter, I coaxed him up onto it with just his front feet and gave him a treat. Then he got back down. We tried again and this time he got all four feet on it and jumped back off. Again....he did the same thing, only this time he got no treat, but I didn't scold or give him a correction of any type. Then again....back on and this time, he took a few more steps and got about half way before he bailed. I praised him for this big accomplishment. He's afraid of it because he hurt himself on it one time a while back. And one more try and he made it all the way to the end where it went down the other side. Wooooo hooooo....big treat and praise. We ended that session right there so I wouldn't risk him flaking out and not doing it...wanted to end with success as the last thing he did. If I had expected him to do the whole thing in one try, I would have had to force him by holding him onto it, (which I probably couldn't physically do anyhow) He would have been very frightened and not enjoyed it at all. I'm afraid he would not have as much fun doing agility at all if it's made to be a drugery. So, baby steps are easier and still rewarding and soon enough he gets onto it. The other things; the weave poles, the wall, the jumps, tunnel, shute, tire jump, he's great at and loves....If he is dampened in any way, it is well known by agility people that it will ruin their drive and speed. It has to be fun and rewarding and nothing negative about it. So if there's something that is difficult for them, you have to be careful how it's handled.

He's not retarded. His back legs are further apart than his front and the teeter totter is very narrow. He's young and doesn't know quite where his back feet are going. You should see how quickly he's catching onto what the words, "jump left, jump right, go jump" mean....the difference. I can set the jumps parallel to the way he's running and I'm way behind him. I tell him "jump left" and he goes over a jump from right to left and then I say, "jump right" and he knows to go from the left side of the next jump across it going right. I didn't even think he knew those words yet. I've just started this. And there's no way I can show him because he goes too fast for me to keep up. He's terribly exuberant and joyful while he's running and jumping. Sometimes I can see all of his front teeth. He smiles!

Of course he is not wearing a leash. So doing something with a collar wouldn't show him anything even if I could reach him. So, what do you attribute this understanding from him to? Do you really think he's retarded?

Sarcasm, or when someone is making a pun???????? Gee willikers!!!

[bridey_01]

Also, where's this stuff about baby steps coming from? You only need to use baby steps if you are having a hard time teaching something, or if it is a very complicated behaviour (go get my slippers and my keys, fido). I sometimes use baby steps when I am teaching greyhounds to sit/retrieve, behaviours which don't really come naturally to them. Same goes for whippets.

[Manchesters]

Lol, yes, they do go through that fear period a couple of times, serves wolves well in the wild and something our dogs still have. Manchesters, you must use the choker sparingly, how do you show your dogs what you want, is it the old push down on butt thing for sit?
As for how I've seen it used, for down they pull down on the choker and apply pressure to the back (can cause hip displasia in some breeds), pull up on choker and push down on butt for sit, check check check check for heel. When do you put a cue on the behaviour? How do you teach the retrieve and directed retrieve?

For sit, scoop hind legs of dog forward with your arm. For down, scoop front legs forward. After I know they know and they are doing it consistently usually I don't even have to give a correction. If I do, I just barely pop the collar....quick pull release, no movement even of dog's head.

As far as retrieve, Dobes are born with images of tennis balls in their brains. The trick would be to get the dog to NOT retrieve. As far as directed retrieve he just did it. He was a genius which spoiled me rotten.

I have not taught nuttin' for years and years. At least as far as obedience. The last 10 years I taught for conformation only.

As far as training heeling, continued left turns into the dog do wonders.

[Manchesters]

Also, where's this stuff about baby steps coming from? You only need to use baby steps if you are having a hard time teaching something, or if it is a very complicated behaviour (go get my slippers and my keys, fido). I sometimes use baby steps when I am teaching greyhounds to sit/retrieve, behaviours which don't really come naturally to them. Same goes for whippets.

That is what it said is the difference between the two. Operant is baby steps. Traditional is teaching in large blocks.

[bridey_01]

Aaah, the old scoop method. It is more humane than the choker one, I've used it myself when I was young and still learning. The thing is if you get the dog to adopt the position manually it takes a HELL of alot longer for it to learn what you are asking of it as opposed to if you developed a target (the hand) and simply lured the dog into position. This luring action then becomes your hand signal, and after you have the required behaviour then you can put a cue on it. There should be no need for a correction if the dog is sufficiently motivated.

[bridey_01]

Operant is not baby steps, please try and cultivate at least some BASIC knowledge on the technique before you make a statement.

[yuckaduck]

Aaah, the old scoop method. It is more humane than the choker one, I've used it myself when I was young and still learning. The thing is if you get the dog to adopt the position manually it takes a HELL of alot longer for it to learn what you are asking of it as opposed to if you developed a target (the hand) and simply lured the dog into position. This luring action then becomes your hand signal, and after you have the required behaviour then you can put a cue on it. There should be no need for a correction if the dog is sufficiently motivated.
That is how I trained Yukon to sit with the lure and food. Unfortunately we did have a problem briefly when we stopped using the food. He looked at us and decided he did not want to be bothered since we had no treats for him. However now he does sit and with the hand signal as well and down, heel, come and stay. I can say it or just do the hand signal and he does it. Also can do it from a distance of 10 feet as long as the long leash is still attached to his collar. Remove the leash and his brain falls out. Maybe that leash is holding the brain in. LOL Oh well he is only 5 months and 1 day old so he still has time to learn more.

[bridey_01]

Lol, my dogs do all of that too, I just had to prove to them that treats would come eventually, alot of people make the make the mistake of only training with treats in their hands!

[Manchesters]

Operant is not baby steps, please try and cultivate at least some BASIC knowledge on the technique before you make a statement.

Well, now.....some say TINY steps, I said baby steps. Potato, potahto. Whatever!

http://www.behavior.org/animals/index.cfm?page=http%3A//www.behavior.org/animals/animals_operant.cfm

[opokki]

Do you remember Pavlov and the ringing bell? It is called conditioned reflex or response. Eventually you only have to jingle the collar for the dog to know to "try again". Not that it really matters.....the pop of the collar is so slight as it is that eventually the dog knows as soon as it hears the noise the collar makes during the pop that is all it takes.

Well, that makes sense but the quote I used in my original post sounded like their were no pops, pulls or tightening of the collar at all not even to create an association. That is what I was questioning, I was genuinely curious. I have no experience with choke chains.

[Manchesters]

Aaah, the old scoop method. It is more humane than the choker one, I've used it myself when I was young and still learning. The thing is if you get the dog to adopt the position manually it takes a HELL of alot longer for it to learn what you are asking of it as opposed to if you developed a target (the hand) and simply lured the dog into position. This luring action then becomes your hand signal, and after you have the required behaviour then you can put a cue on it. There should be no need for a correction if the dog is sufficiently motivated.

Good heavens, what is the rush??? I would train the basics to the Dobes while watching TV, using my left foot to do the scooping, since I was sitting in a chair. And old Max was trained to hand signals. Someday maybe Old Dog will step in and tell you about old Max. He was one in a gazillion.

The time I spent training gave me time to be with my dogs one on one. Why would I even want to speed things up? Obedience work gets a bit boring after they have learned it all, rofl. I had to keep making things up to teach Max to keep it interesting for both of us. And since he learned to bloody fast that was not easy.

He was also protection trained, and was 1000% reliable in his OUT. Eat you for dinner once second, and then bringing you a stick to throw for him the next. I could tell him to go and either make pee-pee or poopies, and he would do whichever I told him. Amazed more than one person with THAT little trick, rofl.

[Manchesters]

Well, that makes sense but the quote I used in my original post sounded like their were no pops, pulls or tightening of the collar at all not even to create an association. That is what I was questioning, I was genuinely curious. I have no experience with choke chains.

There are some things that are harder than heck to explain with words. The best way is probably by getting some videos that show the different techniques and that way you can benefit from that old saying of a picture being worth a thousand words. And you can see the differences between the different methods, and try them out and see which you prefer.

[opokki]

<<Difference #1. Traditional Training presents information in big blocks. Operant training presents information broken down into tiny approximations.

In Traditional Training the dog is expected to perform at a Terminal Response level, and anything less than this is "corrected" in some manner. In operant training, because behavior is built in tiny steps, whoever is getting trained has many opportunities for reinforcement. This has the long-term effect of making the behavior very strong; and also the tiny steps are much easier to assimilate. In this interchange the trainer's efforts are reinforced also. Success begets Success.>>

In other words, Traditional is for dogs with brains, and Operant is for dogs who are somewhat retarded, correct? My Dobe learned just about execise in 3 times showing him. Any correction was the good old pop of the collar simply to get that extra 1% from him to make it militaryily precise. Max and I were both perfectionists. If I had tried "tiny steps" he would have fallen asleep, roflmbo.

Operant does not = baby steps. Baby steps can be used to teach a sequence of behaviors or very complicated behaviors but generally baby steps are not used.

Besides, operant conditioning IS involved in traditional methods, is it not?

[bridey_01]

No, you hardly ever use tiny steps, as I said before, only when teaching a very hard behaviour. Lets make an example. Say I am teaching my dog to sit. I would get a tiny tidbit, hold it just above his nose and move it slowly forwards. Canine physiology requires a sit for him to continue to target that treat, and as soon as his butt hits the floor I say my bridge word and release the food. The bridge word has marked the exact moment, the food has associated that moment with a reward. I would repeat this about ten times, sometimes with food, sometimes without till he was reliably following the hand signal, then I would add the voice cue. Simple, no baby steps. Now, with a greyhound, I would have to reward even the slightest movement of butt towards ground because sitting for them is not a relaxing or enjoyable experience.
As for the time, I don't train positively because I want to speed it up and not spend time with my dogs, lol! I train like this because the dogs love getting the rewards, and the faster they perform the command the faster I can reward them. It's mutually beneficial.
Watch out what videos you get, I have one called "training you to train your dog" I've looked for the cover but I can't find it, I think it's by somebody with the last name houssen?
Anyway, she is extremely harsh in this video. They are teaching the down, dragging the dogs down by their chains and grabbing at their legs and this beagle just won't do it. She takes the dog from the handler and yanks that collar so hard you hear this resounding squeel of pain. Another handler with a shepherd moves in front of the whole scene then but the screaming and yanking goes on for a good ten seconds. The voice over says "Now, If your pup is screaming he is just trying to be stubborn and not do the command, don't worry, you arn't hurting him".

[caseyolee]

I use choke collars on my 8 month old pup when we go somewhere when there is stock. Sometimes she forgets and tries to go after a cow in the arena running by. I like to have the choke chain on so she corrects herself. It doesn't rip my arm off as bad and she makes the correction, not me.

It works out well.

[Zoom]

^^holy crap. That sounds like she took her cues from Ed at Leesburg Kennels.

It's never too late to start clicker training right? Sawyer has gotten horrible at heeling, on or off leash. He will keep a position about 3 feet in front, but not a true heel. He thinks "heel" is what he does (sitting in heel position) when he comes from a long-distance stay, not actually walking in it.

[bridey_01]

Ahh border collies! Love them. I just spent weeks training my boorders around flocks of sheep and herds of cattle. They became everyday stuff and I made myself more interesting. As a result I didn't need to have them on a lead and they got alot more freedom while we were waiting our turn.

[bridey_01]

Also, if you let your dog correct herself with the full force of a lunge behind her you can cause severe spinal problems. I have a friend who is an animal chiropractor and he sees about two dogs a week with spinal problems related to incorrect use of the check chain.

[bridey_01]

Nope, it's never too late and clicker training is great for smartening up heeling! But, if you have used harsh methods long enough it will take longer for the dog to realise training is a fun thing now. We still have members in our trial class whose dogs won't look at them.
Not that I think you have been harsh, lol. Aussies are GREAT dogs, I was considering getting one but there are hardly any in australia.

[Zoom]

Nope, solely positive reinforcement, treats he likes and a simple "nope" and a repeat of the signal if he gets it wrong.

[bridey_01]

Sounds good to me, as long as you are using a bridge word. You might also like to use an NRM, no reward marker. It's not a correction, persay, but it does tell the dog "nope, that wasn't it, try again" without getting physical.

[Doberluv]

OMG! When I came in from our training session today, I was ecstatic...still am coming off of it. Lyric's heel is almost amazing...in just a few days of clicker training. He's like staying tot-all-y (valley girl) in the right position, hardly lagging at all. I mean, two days ago he was mighty sloppy. And he has just learned a new word for finishing. I used to just say heel and he'd come from a front around back of me into a sit along side me and now I'm saying, "place." Wooo hooo. In just two sessions he knows what place means and does it smartly and straight. I wanted a seperate word for that than the heel. Let's see what esle....oh, he got on the teether totter again today twice...still a little apprehensive, but is braving it better. He hurries too fast so I have to hang onto him a little in case he falls off. Yup...that targeting....takes 5 minutes to teach with the clicker.

I got stood up tonight so I took Lyric as my date to the local pub. He waited in the entry way in a down stay while I went and ordered a drink...people all over the place. Then I went outside with him on the patio. He got some good socializing, lots of pats...saw a dog and behaved himself, got some hot dog pieces. Then we went home.

I have had this clicker sitting around for months, using it sometimes but not a lot. It is so nice. It really seems to make a difference than just a word, so I'm going to be using it much more. It's so clear and concise.

Oh heck....I haven't manipulated a dog into a sit or down in years. What a pain in the neck that is. They wonder what the heck you're doing to them and don't think because it's not their body doing it by itself. It's you pushing and pulling on them, getting forced into position. Luring them into a sit or down is so much easier I think. No fuss, no muss. They learn so much quicker that way. Look Mom, no hands! Speaking of hands....they also automatically learn the hand signals because your hands are doing the hand signals while you're luring. So, two lessions in one.