Quote from Training your german shepherd dog

[yuckaduck]

This is for all of you who have told me to use tid bits and food as positive reinforcement. This is a direct quote word for word out of the book Training your German Shepherd Dog written by Dan Rice, DVM


People often approach training with a tidbit in their hands. Food rewards of this type may or may not enhance training. Treats may encourage learning by causing the dog to assume a desirable body attitude. At times, they are simply to let Duchess know she has preformed to your satisfaction.

In other instances, food rewards can distract from teaching or are superfluous depending on the paticular task being taught. The Shepherd is a known people pleaser, a dog that will willingly work for praise rather than treats.

It also talks at great length about slip collar corrections and how to do them properly. It will take me all day to type it all out but long story short:

It says no yanking, jerking, screaming, or hollering at Duchess. A simple leash correction is enough because if you yank then Duchess may learn but will be trying to avoid pain rather than actually learning. So it does say yes to leash correction but only if done properly. It is a small pull and it is the noise of the slip chain that is the correction. The dog should not move or be pulled physically at all.

This is how I have been training.

So it is just one way there are many ways to train, but this is how Manchesters advised me to train and this book is almost word for word to her advice so I figure she must be right. Plus it is working. Now this is for information only, I am not going to get into a hugh arguement again over who's way is best. Every way has there place and there value in the dog training world.

[Adrienne]

Too true Yuck. If I "popped" Gunnar with a slip collar he would freak out and have no idea what was going on. He is such a sensitive soul, didn't know the German Shepherd breed was but he really is. If I raise my voice to him he tucks his ears flat to his skull and rolls his eyes at me, LOL. Also want to add that I don't use treats in training any longer, not since about five months when he had it all down pat. Now he works for praise and his tug toy, my dogs only get a treat after their last potty trip of the night.

I am glad that Yuck is responding so well to your training and I am glad you are using the tools the correct way. He obviously requires a firmer hand than Gunnar. Just like Katya, if I didn't walk her on the leader for the month we used it she would still be horrible on leash. Thankfully it totally changed her on leash behavior and now I can walk her on a regular collar again!

[yuckaduck]

Too true Yuck. If I "popped" Gunnar with a slip collar he would freak out and have no idea what was going on. He is such a sensitive soul, didn't know the German Shepherd breed was but he really is. If I raise my voice to him he tucks his ears flat to his skull and rolls his eyes at me, LOL. Also want to add that I don't use treats in training any longer, not since about five months when he had it all down pat. Now he works for praise and his tug toy, my dogs only get a treat after their last potty trip of the night.

I am glad that Yuck is responding so well to your training and I am glad you are using the tools the correct way. He obviously requires a firmer hand than Gunnar. Just like Katya, if I didn't walk her on the leader for the month we used it she would still be horrible on leash. Thankfully it totally changed her on leash behavior and now I can walk her on a regular collar again!
It is so true every dog is different. I really had no clue until I started reading books. Like Dr. Stanely Coren is hands off positive reinforcement all the way. His way it does work, he actually had a tv show Good Dog so it did work but not with my doggy. So I am not running any way into the mud just showing different ways available and people have to evaluate there dogs temperment and go from there as to which way works the best for them and their pooch.

[Adrienne]

So how's the Yuck doing today? He sure is a cutie. I looked for those other pictures you said you posted but I can't find them. Do you remember what the thread was called?
Are you planning on doing any shutzhund with Yukon? I'd love to get Gunnar in but it's such a long drive and with gas prices so high I can't afford it right now. I guess we will just keep honing our obediance skills and I will learn how to teach a dog to track, should be interesting!

[yuckaduck]

So how's the Yuck doing today? He sure is a cutie. I looked for those other pictures you said you posted but I can't find them. Do you remember what the thread was called?
Are you planning on doing any shutzhund with Yukon? I'd love to get Gunnar in but it's such a long drive and with gas prices so high I can't afford it right now. I guess we will just keep honing our obediance skills and I will learn how to teach a dog to track, should be interesting!
He is a smarty pants who is challenging every move we make. Nope no shutzhund for him, he goes straight to police school or jail. lol

[Zoom]

Wow, that is so different from the advice I read from a GSD breeder up in Minnesota I think. He breeds strictly for police dogs and Shutzhund and I think most of his techniques verge on abuse. Let me see if I can find his website again.

EDIT: http://www.leerburg.com/table.htm

[Adrienne]

Wow, that is so different from the advice I read from a GSD breeder up in Minnesota I think. He breeds strictly for police dogs and Shutzhund and I think most of his techniques verge on abuse. Let me see if I can find his website again.

EDIT: http://www.leerburg.com/table.htm

I have a friend who has a female from his kennels. Very nice looking dog, very expensive! Although the price did include free one hour training sessions with either Ed or one of his employees. The guy didn't bother to take him up on it because it was to far of a drive for him.

[Zoom]

I do like the looks of his stock. It seems like he pays very close attention to the bloodlines and doesn't let show ring fads affect him.

I've read most of his training answers to the Q&A section. All the advice is VERY harsh, very physical and designed around the idea that force is what keeps a pack leader the leader. I know there are dogs out there that need this type of training, they're too dominant for much else, but Joe Six-packs BYB lab probably doesn't need to get popped with a prong collar and kicked in the butt when it jumps on him.

[bridey_01]

Its easy for people to drop their senses and get physical with dogs. They are smaller land based animals that generally prefer not to attack us, which kind of encourages us to use any techniques we like. That doesn't mean they are right, or the best way to teach.

[yuckaduck]

Wow, that is so different from the advice I read from a GSD breeder up in Minnesota I think. He breeds strictly for police dogs and Shutzhund and I think most of his techniques verge on abuse. Let me see if I can find his website again.

EDIT: http://www.leerburg.com/table.htm
Leerburg is very aggressive and down right nasty as a trainer. I would never follow his techniques and most people here suggest that you stay away from him.

[yuckaduck]

I do like the looks of his stock. It seems like he pays very close attention to the bloodlines and doesn't let show ring fads affect him.

I've read most of his training answers to the Q&A section. All the advice is VERY harsh, very physical and designed around the idea that force is what keeps a pack leader the leader. I know there are dogs out there that need this type of training, they're too dominant for much else, but Joe Six-packs BYB lab probably doesn't need to get popped with a prong collar and kicked in the butt when it jumps on him.
I know someone who trained with him and their dog pees everytime they go near it out of submission. Not what I want out of my dog. Yuck comes from police lines 8 generations of it and I will not train with those harsh methods.

[bridey_01]

Good on you for drawing the line yuckaduck. I once trained with the army for a seminar, and they wanted me to put needles in a peice of meat and offer it to the dog so they wouldn't take meat from strangers. I pointed out to him that there were better ways to train this with less potential for injury to the dog. He laughed and told me to prove it, so I asked him to offer some meat to my bullterrier, which I had brought along as a demo dog. Snake just stared at him then turned his head. The man was very embarassed and told his students that the needle method was "faster and made a better impression" than my positive ones.
Needless to say, I never went back.

[Adrienne]

Wow, it's a good thing he didn't take the guy up on his training. He is a sweetheart, has a illness that will most likely take his life soon and that dog is his life.

[yuckaduck]

I had a friend who trains for the service dog association of Ontario and the OPP pups [he starts them off] and asked him about Yucks jumping and biting at other people. His advice was to literally flatten the dog when he does this. I said no and he looked me right in the eye and said well stop complaining about the problem if you are not willing to stop it once and for all. It would only take one good flattening session to end all of this nonsense permantly. So the old harsh methods are still around. Not for me though. Guess I'll have to continue complaining!

[Mordy]

People often approach training with a tidbit in their hands. Food rewards of this type may or may not enhance training. Treats may encourage learning by causing the dog to assume a desirable body attitude. At times, they are simply to let Duchess know she has preformed to your satisfaction.

In other instances, food rewards can distract from teaching or are superfluous depending on the paticular task being taught. The Shepherd is a known people pleaser, a dog that will willingly work for praise rather than treats.

just a note here - many people confuse "training using food rewards" with "bribing a dog with food". they are not the same thing and do not accomplish the same results. :)

[yuckaduck]

just a note here - many people confuse "training using food rewards" with "bribing a dog with food". they are not the same thing and do not accomplish the same results. :)
I think the point is that some dogs don't need food reward period because it distracts from the actual teaching and learning. Like german shepherds they love to please people so a good boy or good girl should be more than enough reward.

[Adrienne]

Tonight I decided to try the "pinch" collar on Gunnar on our walk. We have been working on our issue with other dogs and not much seems to be working so I thought I would give it a go. We encountered three dogs on our walk, two tied up and one being walked. He was pretty responsive to the corrections when we passed the two that were tied up but I got no response from corrections when the one being walked passed us. It was on the opposite side of the street. I gave the leave it command and asked him to sit. He sat for a moment, got praised and then went nutty, he had no concern with the fact that I was giving him a pop.
What finally worked was me getting right in front of him, keeping him in the sit and blocking his view of the other dog. I then told him to focus which he did for about 7 seconds. Then I stood up and right away he was looking all over for the other dog. Miserable curr :rolleyes: .
Guess we need to try some other training options.

[yuckaduck]

Tonight I decided to try the "pinch" collar on Gunnar on our walk. We have been working on our issue with other dogs and not much seems to be working so I thought I would give it a go. We encountered three dogs on our walk, two tied up and one being walked. He was pretty responsive to the corrections when we passed the two that were tied up but I got no response from corrections when the one being walked passed us. It was on the opposite side of the street. I gave the leave it command and asked him to sit. He sat for a moment, got praised and then went nutty, he had no concern with the fact that I was giving him a pop.
What finally worked was me getting right in front of him, keeping him in the sit and blocking his view of the other dog. I then told him to focus which he did for about 7 seconds. Then I stood up and right away he was looking all over for the other dog. Miserable curr :rolleyes: .
Guess we need to try some other training options.
Have you tried a choke collar placed right behind his ears. Works very well with Yuck don't even need to pop as soon as he lunges he gets the tighten feeling and backs right off. I don't move at all, I let him figure it out on his own and when he stops I ask him to sit. After doing this for three days now when another dog approaches he automatically sits. Now we just need to settle his butt with strange people. Still likes to be very mouthy but has stoped jumping.

[Adrienne]

I will try that next Yuck, thanks.

[opokki]

sorry, I meant to start a new thread.