Clicker training...

[Rubylove]

I am clicker-training Ruby and I must say, the results so far have been nothing less than spectacular!!

I've only just started and have so far taught her to stop what she is doing (no matter what it is) and pay attention to me every time I say her name, and to sit. Each session, and I'm not exaggerating, has taken about six to eight minutes, and she has not needed to relearn anything, once. Best of all, she doesn't just respond to me, but to Max as well - or anyone else who gives her the command for that matter. It is firmly learned.

I am going to teach her sit/stay tonight.

It's amazing and I couldn't recommend it more highly!!

[Martine]

That's great news Rubylove. I had a lot of success with it too, I taught Misha to shake paws and lie down. Trouble is now she only has to see the clicker and she lies down, she thinks she is being so clever, lol. It's an enjoyable way to train isn't it?

[RD]

I love using the clicker when teaching new behaviors, it's so much faster!

[Rubylove]

That's great news Rubylove. I had a lot of success with it too, I taught Misha to shake paws and lie down. Trouble is now she only has to see the clicker and she lies down, she thinks she is being so clever, lol. It's an enjoyable way to train isn't it?
LOL! Yes - after a bit I had trouble getting her to stand up so I could get her to sit again!! It can be a bit of overkill but you're right - it's a really fun and rewarding way to train, and I felt so proud of her. :p

[Manchesters]

I love using the clicker when teaching new behaviors, it's so much faster!

Have you tried teaching the same dog the same behavior without the clicker? If not, then how can you tell if the clicker is faster?

I have not formally trained for many years. We did not use gimmicks back then, and the dogs did not seem to have a problem learning what was being taught and doing it happily....and consistently.

I am glad if people think that clicker training is a miracle. But the interesting thing is that is a dog is properly trained by whatever method, it will learn easily and quickly under all conditions.

[RD]

Have you tried teaching the same dog the same behavior without the clicker? If not, then how can you tell if the clicker is faster?

I have not formally trained for many years. We did not use gimmicks back then, and the dogs did not seem to have a problem learning what was being taught and doing it happily....and consistently.

I am glad if people think that clicker training is a miracle. But the interesting thing is that is a dog is properly trained by whatever method, it will learn easily and quickly under all conditions.
I can't teach the same behavior twice. (I suppose I could, but I don't have that much time to waste on extinguishing a behavior only to train it again.) However, I've compared my dog's learning rate for relatively similar behaviors (ie: I taught my dog to spin clockwise with a clicker, counterclockwise with only luring and praise) WITH the clicker, to that without it, and it's noticeably faster with it.

I don't consider clicker training to be a mircale, it's just operant conditioning. It's not the clicker that's so important, it's the fact that the sound is a very easily distinguishable marker for good behavior. I suppose I could achieve the same results with a voice marker, but I find it easier to get the timing right with a clicker.

Whatever floats your boat, i guess. :)

[Saje]

Clickers are no more of a gimmick than crates are. They are a tool. And they work very well.

[Mordy]

i'm a big fan of clicker training as well and have been involved for 6 years now.

just a couple weeks ago i attended an advanced clicker training seminar with kathy sdao, which was absolutely awesome. she has an amazing background as a trainer, for example training dolphins in the open ocean for the US navy.

one of the things we discussed was how it took such a long time for operant conditioning to become "mainstream enough" to be used in dog training, when the principles of it have been known since the early 1900s (thorndike, watson, skinner et al).

and when you think of it, it makes so much more sense to train an animal that way, rather than with the old compulsion methods. i have one of my old training books from the early 80s on my shelf (schutzhund stuff) and was reading through it the other day and realized how much it makes me cringe now - especially crap like the forced retrieve. :(

[Rubylove]

Have you tried teaching the same dog the same behavior without the clicker? If not, then how can you tell if the clicker is faster?

I have not formally trained for many years. We did not use gimmicks back then, and the dogs did not seem to have a problem learning what was being taught and doing it happily....and consistently.

I am glad if people think that clicker training is a miracle. But the interesting thing is that is a dog is properly trained by whatever method, it will learn easily and quickly under all conditions.
Oh yes, we tried. We couldn't get Ruby to even look at us through `traditional' training methods. And sit?? Even the trainer we were with couldn't get her to sit. That's why we abandoned puppy classes and tried another method.

I only had to use the clicker a few times before I could abandon it completely (and the treat) and just use the voice command. And after hours and hours alone I went back out and tried again, just with the `sit' command, and it worked perfectly. I've never seen anything so effective and although I haven't trained a lot of dogs I've trained enough to think that this is the best way I've ever seen - I guess it's the same principle as Pavlov's dog. Simple conditioning - scientifically proven to work better than anything else!

I am certainly not criticising other more traditional forms of training (except, of course, punishment, which has been proven is just not necessary) I'm just saying this has really worked amazingly well for us. And with my cats, too, I might add!! Lol

[Martine]

And with my cats, too, I might add!! Lol
That's great it works on cats - what have you trained them to do?

Mmmm, now I wonder if it would work on husbands....... ;)

[Mordy]

clicker training works on any animal that has a brain developed enough to connect a reward to an action. :) that includes humans.

you can even clicker train goldfish, chickens, rats or rabbits.

the "clicker training" movement for humans uses the term TAGteach.
http://www.tagteach.com

[Rubylove]

That's great it works on cats - what have you trained them to do?

Mmmm, now I wonder if it would work on husbands....... ;)
Lol! Initially, I just used it to make my kitten get off things she wasn't allowed to be on - and she didn't respond to anything else. She was highly impossible and I tell you what out of all the cats I've ever had she was the closest one to meeting an untimely death by homicide from her Meowmy!!

But then I thought it might be nice to teach her some little tricks - cos she's such a sweet-looking girl and a tiny cat (even fully grown) and so I taught her to kiss, twirl and speak. Too cute...

I've never tried it on my husband - should, though, he's about as easy to train as Ruby...lol lol

[bridey_01]

I'm glad you've gotten some great sucess! I've watched dogs being trained "the old way" and have learnt how to use it myself. I don't claim it doesn't work, its just slower, requires more effort (in harsh classes) and makes hyper dogs more hyper and anxious dogs a quivering mess. Being anxious and aggressive is incompatable with eating, so we have calm, fast learning classes that don't worry about correction or punishment. There dogs never NEED to be corrected.

[bridey_01]

I've also taught my cat some things! He can go through my dogs entire agility course (and you havn't seen agility till you've seen a cat going through weave poles!)

[Rubylove]

I've also taught my cat some things! He can go through my dogs entire agility course (and you havn't seen agility till you've seen a cat going through weave poles!)
I bet!! Now THAT is something I'd like to see. My little girl, Sashka, is a Russian Blue and quite the most amazingly athletic cat I've ever known. Her big sister Sunday is a Persian and just lies around and looks pretty and gives you cuddles...lol. But Sashka is amazing - she's just a little acrobat!

[bridey_01]

Well, my cat Paddy is extremely intelligent and very people oriented. I had a russian blue once, they are quite vocal!

[Rubylove]

Well, my cat Paddy is extremely intelligent and very people oriented. I had a russian blue once, they are quite vocal!
Yes they are - and a nightmare as kittens. If I had have known what she would be like as a kitten I probably wouldn't have got her, however, having said that she is the light of my life, now. Such a sweet girl and VERY bright and I wouldn't give her up for anything. But what an effort!! Her name used to be Scratchy (and I don't think that one needs explaining!!) until she finally grew out of it...lol ;)

[Manchesters]

clicker training works on any animal that has a brain developed enough to connect a reward to an action. :) that includes humans.

you can even clicker train goldfish, chickens, rats or rabbits.

the "clicker training" movement for humans uses the term TAGteach.
http://www.tagteach.com

Clicker train goldfish? :eek: :p I hate to point it out, but just how can they tell if the fish (which most would say cannot even hear) is being cued visually or via the clicker? Do goldfish even HAVE ears??? And exactly WHAT behavior have they taught these fish? It has been proven by scientists that goldfish only have a memory of 2 seconds. How can you train anything that has no ability to retain information??? (I know a few folks I have asked that same question about over the years, rofl.)

[Manchesters]

Oh yes, we tried. We couldn't get Ruby to even look at us through `traditional' training methods. And sit?? Even the trainer we were with couldn't get her to sit. That's why we abandoned puppy classes and tried another method.

I only had to use the clicker a few times before I could abandon it completely (and the treat) and just use the voice command. And after hours and hours alone I went back out and tried again, just with the `sit' command, and it worked perfectly. I've never seen anything so effective and although I haven't trained a lot of dogs I've trained enough to think that this is the best way I've ever seen - I guess it's the same principle as Pavlov's dog. Simple conditioning - scientifically proven to work better than anything else!

I am certainly not criticising other more traditional forms of training (except, of course, punishment, which has been proven is just not necessary) I'm just saying this has really worked amazingly well for us. And with my cats, too, I might add!! Lol

Finally someone who has tried it both ways and decided on what works best (or better in this case). Now perhaps if you had had a bigger bag of tricks, you might have found something that taught the sit as well as the clicker. That is one advantage of being around for a hundred years....you have a chance to come across many little things that different people have developed to deal with different bugaboos with their dogs, and you have a plethora of things you can try.

I still am a bit befuddled by why everyone wants to do thing "fastest". What is wrong with letting a dog take its time, lol. I was spoiled however......when I got old Max from the shelter he already knew all the basics...sit, down, come, etc. I took private lessons to start off. Then decided to research for myself.

I am beginning to think that everyone here thinks that traditional training as it is called is based upon the Koeler method. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not even use the "traditional" method. I use the "whatever worked for my individual dog" method. THAT is the best way to train. By incorporating whatever it takes to get your dog to do what you want, when you want, in a happy joyful manner.

[Saje]

I think faster wasn't necessarily the best way to describe how a clicker works. Better would have been... better. I taught Maverick without a clicker. He learned very quickly and still remembers it all. But Mikey and even more so Nanook work SO much better with the clicker. And, yes, I tried it without for both of them. Nanook has shown so much response. But I'd never say she learns FAST. But she does learn. And I have a feeling that once she gets something it's always going to be there. I've been practising NILIF with her. And now she sits or downs all the time and stares at me hopefully. It's so cute. Even when she gets excited she's lay down and almost quiver she's so hopeful to get the treat/outside/attention...

[Mikey27X834]

I'll have to look in to this. It sounds a great way to train a Dog.

[Saje]

I'll have to look in to this. It sounds a great way to train a Dog.

www.clickerlessons.com

[Mikey27X834]

Thanks. :)

[Mordy]

Clicker train goldfish? :eek: :p I hate to point it out, but just how can they tell if the fish (which most would say cannot even hear) is being cued visually or via the clicker? Do goldfish even HAVE ears??? And exactly WHAT behavior have they taught these fish? It has been proven by scientists that goldfish only have a memory of 2 seconds. How can you train anything that has no ability to retain information??? (I know a few folks I have asked that same question about over the years, rofl.)

apparently they hear quite well. also, cues/markers are not necessarily just given vocally but also by hand signals or other means.

the goldfish in question was trained to toss a ball through a hoop for food.

conditioning a response and active memory are completely different concepts. animals learn which behaviors pay off and which don't, it's a survival thing.

here are some links on the topic:
the book that was discussed (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0533112923/qid=1123618604/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4843492-3393611?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/radio/more/clickerexpo.html
http://www.clickertraining.com/training/advanced_topics/?loaditem=training_a_fish

i can talk about this until the cows come home, but you can really only understand the principles of operant conditioning completely by actually working with a live animal.

[Saje]

Fish have ears! They are just inside. They have really good hearing and a good sense of smell too from what I understand. And I thought the 2 second rule was just an old-wives tale. Where did they prove that?

[RD]

I do not even use the "traditional" method. I use the "whatever worked for my individual dog" method. THAT is the best way to train. By incorporating whatever it takes to get your dog to do what you want, when you want, in a happy joyful manner. I agree!

[Adrienne]

I agree!

How many people actually have the experience to determin what works for an individual dog though. Most first time dog owners know nothing about training, get advice to slap a check chain on their dog and drag the heck out of it. Then they wonder why there dog doesn't respond in the way they want, blame it on behavior issues and temperment problems and ditch it at the shelter. If you have all the resources at your beck and call and are experienced enough to make that call then sure, do what works for the individual dog. Most people aren't at that place though. We are an enlightened group, just being here on this forum shows we want to learn what is best for our animals. The majority of pet owners around the world don't bother to learn different techniques.

[Doberluv]

Training this way is stupendous!

[Rubylove]

Clicker train goldfish? :eek: :p I hate to point it out, but just how can they tell if the fish (which most would say cannot even hear) is being cued visually or via the clicker? Do goldfish even HAVE ears??? And exactly WHAT behavior have they taught these fish? It has been proven by scientists that goldfish only have a memory of 2 seconds. How can you train anything that has no ability to retain information??? (I know a few folks I have asked that same question about over the years, rofl.)

Actually, that 2 second memory thing has actually been proven to be a scientific myth. They're memories aren't that great, granted, but certainly better than that!

And you're right - I wasn't focusing on trying to train Ruby `faster' - just the most effectively for her. She just wouldn't respond to other methods and so I thought I'd give it a go as I'd had success with my cats. I think without the clicker the techniques I eventually ended up using would have worked anyway, but this just made it easier for her. Luckily for me I think she's very bright so once she had the idea she grasped it and took off! I only mentioned the speed because I was amazed at how little time it took, and that is an added bonus. I wish I had have tried it on the GSDs that I used to have because I think they would have loved it, too.

I really think that the method of training that you use is going to vary from animal to animal, dog to dog. But I have found clicker-training very easy to understand from a trainer's point of view, with very low frustration and very high success!! So for me, it's the best way of all.

[Manchesters]

apparently they hear quite well. also, cues/markers are not necessarily just given vocally but also by hand signals or other means.

the goldfish in question was trained to toss a ball through a hoop for food.

conditioning a response and active memory are completely different concepts. animals learn which behaviors pay off and which don't, it's a survival thing.

here are some links on the topic:
the book that was discussed (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0533112923/qid=1123618604/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4843492-3393611?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/radio/more/clickerexpo.html
http://www.clickertraining.com/training/advanced_topics/?loaditem=training_a_fish

i can talk about this until the cows come home, but you can really only understand the principles of operant conditioning completely by actually working with a live animal.

Fish do NOT have ears. Perhaps the trainers used AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE.

[Rubylove]

Fish do NOT have ears. Perhaps the trainers used AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE.
Sure they do. You just can't see them.

First, you need some sound facts. All sounds are made from vibrations, so hearing is really a kind of feeling. You can feel these sound vibrations, or waves, when you touch the outside of a ringing bell. Your ears "feel" sound waves, too. Nerve endings in your ears send messages to your brain about the sounds they feel. Sound moves through water the same way it does through air, so a fish actually "hears" water movement.

The moving water flows through the skin at the back of the fish's head into its hidden ears (two hair-lined sacs that contain fluids) and moves the hairs in the lining. Scientists aren't sure, but they think tiny nerve endings attached to the hairs then send signals to the fish's brain.

Most fish can't easily hear really high-pitched or low-pitched sounds. To help hear very low sounds, some fish use a special fluid-filled tube, called a lateral line, as a kind of built-in hearing aid.

A line of tiny holes run along both sides of fish from their head to their back fin. Inside the holes are special nerve cells that sense movement, a lot like how the ear works. It doesn't look anything like an ear, but it helps fish "hear" or feel very low vibrations from moving objects -- like a bigger fish looking for lunch!

Also - why do you think we're told not to tap on the glass of a fish tank?? It causes vibrations through the water that hurt the fishes `ears'.

For a more technical answer, though...

Fish do not have external ears, but sound vibrations readily transmit from the water through the fish's body to its internal ears. The ears are divided into two sections, an upper section (pars superior) and a lower section (utriculus) The pars superior is divided into three semicircular canals and give the fish its sense of balance. It is fluid-filled with sensory hairs. The sensory hairs detect the rotational acceleration of the fluid. The canals are arranged so that one gives yaw, another pitch, and the last- roll. The utriculus gives the fish its ability to hear. It has two large otoliths which vibrate with the sound and stimulate surrounding hair cells.

Fish posses another sense of mechanoreception that is kind of like a cross between hearing and touch. The organ responsible for this is the neuromast, a cluster of hair cells which have their hairs linked in a glob of jelly known as 'cupala'. All fish posses free neuromasts, which come in contact directly with the water. Most fish have a series of neuromasts not in direct contact with the water. These are arranged linearly and form the fishes lateral lines. A free neuromast gives the fish directional input.

A lateral line receives signals stimulated in a sequence, and gives the fish much more information (feeling the other fish around it for polarized schooling, and short-range prey detection 'the sense of distant touch').

[AndrewF]

How many people actually have the experience to determin what works for an individual dog though. Most first time dog owners know nothing about training, get advice to slap a check chain on their dog and drag the heck out of it. Then they wonder why there dog doesn't respond in the way they want, blame it on behavior issues and temperment problems and ditch it at the shelter. If you have all the resources at your beck and call and are experienced enough to make that call then sure, do what works for the individual dog. Most people aren't at that place though. We are an enlightened group, just being here on this forum shows we want to learn what is best for our animals. The majority of pet owners around the world don't bother to learn different techniques.
Anyone whose trained or tried to train their dog and paid attention.

Jake is the first dog I've ever attempted to train - and while I don't claim to have all the answers, I found a clicker didn't improve his responses any more than verbal praise.

When I first started training Jake, I found trying to man-handle him into doing something wasn't effective (ie, gently pushing his butt down to sit as an example)...and yes, I tried a choke-chain for walking and it did very little for Jake as well. I did find leading him with my hand brought about the desired responses and a treat ensured the desired response would be repeated (place my hand flat on the floor and Jake would lie-down - no touching him at all). This was how he learned the first commands I taught him (sit, stay, lie-down, come and roll-over)....and a fair bit of it was just before I joined the forum.

I thought a choke chain - if used correctly would help me teach Jake to walk better on a leash. The choke chain didn't make it around the block (by my choice). Instead, I put a treat in my hand and gave the command 'with me' while pointing beside me. THAT was a miracle way to teach Jake to walk properly, on and off leash. And through it all, verbal praise and a treat let Jake know I was pleased with him (though I suspect he was beginning to think his name was 'good boy').

The point is it doesn't take a lot to try different things. When you find something that works, stick with it until it doesn't work.

[Rubylove]

Anyone whose trained or tried to train their dog and paid attention.

Jake is the first dog I've ever attempted to train - and while I don't claim to have all the answers, I found a clicker didn't improve his responses any more than verbal praise.

When I first started training Jake, I found trying to man-handle him into doing something wasn't effective (ie, gently pushing his butt down to sit as an example)...and yes, I tried a choke-chain for walking and it did very little for Jake as well. I did find leading him with my hand brought about the desired responses and a treat ensured the desired response would be repeated (place my hand flat on the floor and Jake would lie-down - no touching him at all). This was how he learned the first commands I taught him (sit, stay, lie-down, come and roll-over)....and a fair bit of it was just before I joined the forum.

I thought a choke chain - if used correctly would help me teach Jake to walk better on a leash. The choke chain didn't make it around the block (by my choice). Instead, I put a treat in my hand and gave the command 'with me' while pointing beside me. THAT was a miracle way to teach Jake to walk properly, on and off leash. And through it all, verbal praise and a treat let Jake know I was pleased with him (though I suspect he was beginning to think his name was 'good boy').

The point is it doesn't a lot to try different things. When you find something that works, stick with it until it doesn't work.
I couldn't agree more. We tried the choke-chain with our GSDs and they just didn't respond AT ALL. There was no way they were going to be pushed into something they didn't want to do. Force doesn't work too well with a German Shepherd!!

My sister-in-law, who is a vet, showed me recently a great way to leash-train a dog - and had Ruby doing it so easily! Her method: Firstly, you just leave the leash on the dog and let it run around with the leash trailing. Then you pick up the leash but still let the dog take you wherever it will. Lastly you have a treat in your hand and encourage the dog to follow you, with the treat, on the leash. Ruby was happily walking on a leash within about ten minutes doing that and she loved all the positive attention she was getting!!

I don't know if I'll use a clicker on the next dog we get, to be a companion for Ruby, but I'll certainly try it. As you say - keep using what works until it stops working.

[Doberluv]

Clicker training...operant and classical conditioning is studied in universities around the world, experimented and studies made on all kinds of animals. Trainers use this method because of it's high level effectiveness. It's really based on natural, learning behavior...really quite simple and straight forward. It works well on all kinds of dogs including those with aggression and other behavioral problems.

To say that it doesn't work on some is not logical because learning behavior is universal among mammals, or for that matter anything that thinks and needs to eat. There are variances made for different attention spans or personality differences, but operant conditioning will work on any dog.

I urge anyone with the slightest curiosity about this to do some study on it. Here are a few more links.

http://www.behavior.org/animals/frameset.cfm

http://www.psyeta.org/jaaws/abv6n3.shtml

[Rubylove]

Clicker training...operant and classical conditioning is studied in universities around the world, experimented and studies made on all kinds of animals. Trainers use this method because of it's high level effectiveness. It's really based on natural, learning behavior...really quite simple and straight forward. It works well on all kinds of dogs including those with aggression and other behavioral problems.

To say that it doesn't work on some is not logical because learning behavior is universal among mammals, or for that matter anything that thinks and needs to eat. There are variances made for different attention spans or personality differences, but operant conditioning will work on any dog.

I urge anyone with the slightest curiosity about this to do some study on it. Here are a few more links.

http://www.behavior.org/animals/frameset.cfm

http://www.psyeta.org/jaaws/abv6n3.shtml

Again - I wish I had have tried it on our GSDs. They were very willful pups and also brothers from the same litter and we were inexperienced dog owners at the time. Getting their attention at all or to focus on anything except each other was difficult enough!! If I had to do the same again I would do concentrated clicker-training with both of them - separately - and I bet they would have been angels. I mean, they were anyway, we were lucky they had lovely natures, but if they had've been difficult dogs they would have been nightmares. :rolleyes:

[Doberluv]

Thank you Rubylove for the very interesting fish facts. I never knew that and I had tropical fish for years. I knew they had some kind of ears and that it hurt them to tap on the glass. But all that physiology is really interesting. Thanks for enlightening us! You're one smart cookie! LOL. :)

[Doberluv]

We keep posting at the same time. LOL.

I had GSDs too. Wonderful dogs. I too used more compulsive type training. I have used positive based training on my dogs since those. And it's just so much more fun and the results are so rewarding. (pardon the pun) The difference in the bond is phenomenal as well as the reliablity of the skills. My last GSD was very rambunctious. But not as goofy as my Doberman. LOL.

[AndrewF]

Clicker training...operant and classical conditioning is studied in universities around the world, experimented and studies made on all kinds of animals. Trainers use this method because of it's high level effectiveness. It's really based on natural, learning behavior...really quite simple and straight forward. It works well on all kinds of dogs including those with aggression and other behavioral problems.

I wouldn't question it effectiveness, but the premise of clicker training (as the brochure that came with my clicker said) is to signal the exact moment when the desired behavior is performed or completed (paraphrasing here). However, whether it goes click, ding, gong, "good" or "woowhoo", so long as that instant is distinctly identified, and the behaviour is rewarded, you could probably use a party streamer and succeed.

The method is sound and effective - there's no question there. You don't need a clicker to employ the theory though. When I tried the clicker, it was not effective because Jake was used to hearing "good boy" where someone else would *click*...in essence, the device wasn't effective BUT the theory was there just the same.

[Rubylove]

We keep posting at the same time. LOL.

I had GSDs too. Wonderful dogs. I too used more compulsive type training. I have used positive based training on my dogs since those. And it's just so much more fun and the results are so rewarding. (pardon the pun) The difference in the bond is phenomenal as well as the reliablity of the skills. My last GSD was very rambunctious. But not as goofy as my Doberman. LOL.
Yes - I am a tropical fish keeper and nothing annoys me quite so much as people who walk up to tanks and bang on the glass to try to get a fish's attention!! Betas in particular will come and look at you anyway, as you would know, they're inquisitive little fish!!

I loved my GSDs to distraction and I'm hoping that for our second dog (when Ruby is about a year old) we'll get another one. They are too adorable and such lovely dogs. You're right about the rambunctious behaviour though! Jeepers I've never seen anything like it! I remember Virgil used to get so excited to see me he would run straight at me and send my flying nine times out of ten - and that was before he was six months old!

I'll definitely start with clicker-training for our second dog - particularly if we get a German Shepherd. They are SO smart they would respond to it beautifully, I think.

[Rubylove]

I wouldn't question it effectiveness, but the premise of clicker training (as the brochure that came with my clicker said) is to signal the exact moment when the desired behavior is performed or completed (paraphrasing here). However, whether it goes click, ding, gong, "good" or "woowhoo", so long as that instant is distinctly identified, and the behaviour is rewarded, you could probably use a party streamer and succeed.

The method is sound and effective - there's no question there. You don't need a clicker to employ the theory though. When I tried the clicker, it was not effective because Jake was used to hearing "good boy" where someone else would *click*...in essence, the device wasn't effective BUT the theory was there just the same.
Definitely. It could be a bell, whistle (in fact a lot of circus trainers use whistles) - anything really it's the `bridge' that's important.

[Doberluv]

You've never seen anything like the rambunctousness of a GSD? You should have seen my Doberman until he was about 6 or 7 months old. LOL. He finally started showing signs of civilization about then. LOL. And he's been steadily evolving ever since. He's a great dog now at 2 yrs. old.

My last GSD was probably more exciteable and restless than Lyric, but not as into everything like Lyric, not quite so busy or as high energy or drive. LOL.

I think clicker training is great for all kinds of behavior stuff, aggression included.

[Manchesters]

Actually, that 2 second memory thing has actually been proven to be a scientific myth. They're memories aren't that great, granted, but certainly better than that!

And you're right - I wasn't focusing on trying to train Ruby `faster' - just the most effectively for her. She just wouldn't respond to other methods and so I thought I'd give it a go as I'd had success with my cats. I think without the clicker the techniques I eventually ended up using would have worked anyway, but this just made it easier for her. Luckily for me I think she's very bright so once she had the idea she grasped it and took off! I only mentioned the speed because I was amazed at how little time it took, and that is an added bonus. I wish I had have tried it on the GSDs that I used to have because I think they would have loved it, too.

I really think that the method of training that you use is going to vary from animal to animal, dog to dog. But I have found clicker-training very easy to understand from a trainer's point of view, with very low frustration and very high success!! So for me, it's the best way of all.

I can't find any fault with someone who has tried various methods and settled on the one that works best for them and their dog! And thankfully you have the wisdom to be aware that it is going to take different methods for different dogs under different circumstances.

I wonder why it has not dawned upon some folks that clickers and reinforcement are the ONLY way some animals can be trained! As some of them facetiously stated, "you can't put a collar on a 2000 pound whale and give it a correction." Which is why you HAVE to use clicker and food. With dogs we can use a variety of methods. Whatever it takes as long as the dog is happy...joyful even!...and as long as we are doing what we are doing for the fun and enjoyment of it. At least to my viewpoint.

And on the video of the Oscar that was clicker trained, the woman in the video states the fish takes it cue from the movemnt of the hand. Fish cannot be clicker trained. They CANNOT HEAR THE CLICKER! Just like some dogs try to pretend they cannot hear the clicker, lol.

[Doberluv]

Oh! My dogs hear the clicker all right! They hear it before it even clicks. LOL.....when I take it off the hook I hang it on in my kitchen, they get all excited....Yippeee, training time = fun, praise and homemade liver treats! Then they're all ears, doing what they're learning, hearing the click and waiting for the reward. The click tells them precisely the moment they did what they were suppose to do. That's all that is. It's just such a distinct sound and a marker for a specific behavior. It's not muddled like our voices and doesn't take as much time as words, so the awareness of the behavior is just a little more keen. I don't always use mine...I forget or I don't have it with me, but I do notice a difference in the speed at which they pick up new tricks or skills.

[Manchesters]

Sure they do. You just can't see them.

First, you need some sound facts. All sounds are made from vibrations, so hearing is really a kind of feeling. You can feel these sound vibrations, or waves, when you touch the outside of a ringing bell. Your ears "feel" sound waves, too. Nerve endings in your ears send messages to your brain about the sounds they feel. Sound moves through water the same way it does through air, so a fish actually "hears" water movement.

The moving water flows through the skin at the back of the fish's head into its hidden ears (two hair-lined sacs that contain fluids) and moves the hairs in the lining. Scientists aren't sure, but they think tiny nerve endings attached to the hairs then send signals to the fish's brain.

Most fish can't easily hear really high-pitched or low-pitched sounds. To help hear very low sounds, some fish use a special fluid-filled tube, called a lateral line, as a kind of built-in hearing aid.

A line of tiny holes run along both sides of fish from their head to their back fin. Inside the holes are special nerve cells that sense movement, a lot like how the ear works. It doesn't look anything like an ear, but it helps fish "hear" or feel very low vibrations from moving objects -- like a bigger fish looking for lunch!

Also - why do you think we're told not to tap on the glass of a fish tank?? It causes vibrations through the water that hurt the fishes `ears'.

For a more technical answer, though...

Fish do not have external ears, but sound vibrations readily transmit from the water through the fish's body to its internal ears. The ears are divided into two sections, an upper section (pars superior) and a lower section (utriculus) The pars superior is divided into three semicircular canals and give the fish its sense of balance. It is fluid-filled with sensory hairs. The sensory hairs detect the rotational acceleration of the fluid. The canals are arranged so that one gives yaw, another pitch, and the last- roll. The utriculus gives the fish its ability to hear. It has two large otoliths which vibrate with the sound and stimulate surrounding hair cells.

Fish posses another sense of mechanoreception that is kind of like a cross between hearing and touch. The organ responsible for this is the neuromast, a cluster of hair cells which have their hairs linked in a glob of jelly known as 'cupala'. All fish posses free neuromasts, which come in contact directly with the water. Most fish have a series of neuromasts not in direct contact with the water. These are arranged linearly and form the fishes lateral lines. A free neuromast gives the fish directional input.

A lateral line receives signals stimulated in a sequence, and gives the fish much more information (feeling the other fish around it for polarized schooling, and short-range prey detection 'the sense of distant touch').

My information came from Old Dog, who knows more about fish than you or I could ever even want to know, rofl. They do not anatomiclly have "ears". They have sensors on their bodies that detect vibration in the water. They cannot learn via clicker because they cannot HEAR the clicker. As Old Dog said, they could possibly FEEL virbration from a clicker if you held it in the water, but that would be stupid. Must agree, rofl.

You seem extremely knowledgeable....as to the specifics. I was reluctant to go to exteme about the info for the sake of simplicity, since my only thought was that anyone who claims to clicker train a fish is being silly. Now, training with food.......well, everybody knows goldfish are gluttons, roflmbo.

[Manchesters]

Yes - I am a tropical fish keeper and nothing annoys me quite so much as people who walk up to tanks and bang on the glass to try to get a fish's attention!! Betas in particular will come and look at you anyway, as you would know, they're inquisitive little fish!!

I loved my GSDs to distraction and I'm hoping that for our second dog (when Ruby is about a year old) we'll get another one. They are too adorable and such lovely dogs. You're right about the rambunctious behaviour though! Jeepers I've never seen anything like it! I remember Virgil used to get so excited to see me he would run straight at me and send my flying nine times out of ten - and that was before he was six months old!

I'll definitely start with clicker-training for our second dog - particularly if we get a German Shepherd. They are SO smart they would respond to it beautifully, I think.

You and Old Dog need to get together. After seeing the Reefscapes website it seems she is in to saltwater fishies. Those are the tough ones, but certainly beautiful enough to be worth the effort--at least from a spectator's point of view. She sent me some pictures of her tanks.......gorgeous!

[Doberluv]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12948607&dopt=Abstract

http://www.geocities.com/aquarium_fish/fishes_are.htm
These are good.

Scroll down in the following link to hearing and equalibruim: They have an inner ear but not a middle or outer ear. This is interesting about the differences in how sound travels in water and air and all this stuff about fish. cool! :cool:

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/stories/chat/chat_2-25-05.html

[Mordy]

For Faculty Scholar Richard Fay, Ph.D., professor, psychology and director, Parmly Hearing Institute, being named a scholar in September of 2000 has allowed him the opportunity to continue research on several ongoing projects. During the year, Fay studies the nervous system of goldfish and conducts experiments to learn how and what fish hear. So far, his research has revealed that goldfish basically hear what humans hear, and that human hearing is inherited from fish.

http://www.luc.edu/publications/loyolaworld/020213LW/mainArticle4.htm

Questions of sensory hair cell structure and evolution have been a focal point of much current research. A significant finding, based upon work using electron microscopy, immunocytochemistry and other techniques, has been the discovery of multiple types of sensory hair cells in the ears of fishes. This finding refutes earlier work that suggested that hair cell heterogeneity only occurs in amniotes. Importantly, the discovery of multiple types of hair cells in fishes helps in our understanding of the way that the fish ear functions and also has implications for our understanding of when multiple hair cell types evolved in vertebrates.

http://www.life.umd.edu/biology/popperlab/lab/popper.htm

more stuff:

The Inner Ear
http://www2.biology.ualberta.ca/jackson.hp/IWR/Content/Anatomy/Inner_Ear/index.php

The Fluid Mechanics of Fish Hearing
http://www.me.gatech.edu/minami.yoda/FLOIDLab/fishhearing/fishhearing.htm

Fish Ear Bones Hold Clues to Migration
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1209_021209_TVFishEarBones.html

i could go on, but what's the point. :)

[Doberluv]

Fabulous stuff Mordy. Thanks for sharing!!!

[poeluvr]

You and Old Dog need to get together. After seeing the Reefscapes website it seems she is in to saltwater fishies. Those are the tough ones, but certainly beautiful enough to be worth the effort--at least from a spectator's point of view. She sent me some pictures of her tanks.......gorgeous!
i ahev a 10g tank of tropical fish in my room...they r beautiful...its like a moving peice of scenery that can fit in my room

[Doberluv]

That's so nice Lea that you have that. It's relaxing to watch them. I often think of getting another but I am short on space. I had big tanks of tropical fish as a kid and all through my young adult life. I'd have a big community one and another for breeding some of the live bearers. Sometimes I had one for use as a "hospital" for sick ones.

[poeluvr]

aww...a hospitall.not a bad idea ;)
i have this fish pet store called big al's in oshawa, it has 5 foot sharks..clown fish valcano fish....makes me really want a salt water tank...but i know they are alot of work...alot, but worth it but expensive. i want to become a marine biologist(u can tell by my sig background) so u can probably understand why i like them so much.... it is like a whole nother world...with weird fish that i think are the "real" aliens, considering we dont know alot about deep ocean fish...its amazing i think...and whales..which make you look like a spec of dust..its beutiful.

[Rubylove]

You and Old Dog need to get together. After seeing the Reefscapes website it seems she is in to saltwater fishies. Those are the tough ones, but certainly beautiful enough to be worth the effort--at least from a spectator's point of view. She sent me some pictures of her tanks.......gorgeous!
Ooooh I'd really like to start a saltwater tank but to date I have been too chicken! They are REALLY hard to maintain and take almost as much work as, well, a 14-week-old puppy!!! I'll have to have a look at her site... :p

[Rubylove]

Well, I just get more amazed!!! Tonight I thought I'd teach Ruby `Down' and so I started off (Max has never seen this before I used to train her when he was out) and, once again, with my trusty clicker that sweet baby learned the command in record-breaking time!! I must admit, being a harder command, she took longer - ie it took about 10 minutes instead of 6!!! At the end she was obeying the down command perfectly with NO clicker and NO treat and just the voice command!!! Max was dumbfounded he couldn't believe it.

I just CAN'T recommend this kind of training any higher! It's nothing short of incredible.

[bridey_01]

Lol , I bet that's how we all felt when we first started:) congratulations, some people get turned off when they start reading about scientific studies and animal behaviour.

[Gempress]

Hope it's not too late to add my two cents..

I really do think that clicker training, while it works miracles with some dogs, is like any other method: it depends on the dog. I tried clicker training my golden retriever to do a few tricks, it worked wonderfully. My current dog is not particularly food-motivated. You could be waving a T-bone steak in front of him, and he'll ignore it if he happens to see/scent something interesting during a training session (typical hound, haha!). With him, using some old-fashioned leash correction and verbal praise, rather than treats, is what works.

[Doberluv]

Oh my goodness! I just came in from practicing Lyric on his obedience and a little agility. We worked on cleaning up his heel which has been sloppy... and finishes and that clicker got him sooooo much better in one session. He figured it out almost immediately how he had to be positioned in order to get the click and treat. When he would lag, I just kept walking, didn't do anything and the next thing you know, he's catching up so his shoulder was perfectly in line with my leg. And he was really watching me without any command to do so. Click/treat. One session, so much better, even on the turns. I haven't been using it much, but a little....but now I'm going to make a point of remembering to use it. It's really good for cleaning things up...finishes etc.

[Rubylove]

Hope it's not too late to add my two cents..

I really do think that clicker training, while it works miracles with some dogs, is like any other method: it depends on the dog. I tried clicker training my golden retriever to do a few tricks, it worked wonderfully. My current dog is not particularly food-motivated. You could be waving a T-bone steak in front of him, and he'll ignore it if he happens to see/scent something interesting during a training session (typical hound, haha!). With him, using some old-fashioned leash correction and verbal praise, rather than treats, is what works.
That's so true - Ruby loves it but our GSDs really weren't interested in food treats. You could offer them anything and they'd be like, `Nyah, whatever'. But give them a cuddle and some loving?? Man they'd do anything for that!!

[skyhigh]

I want to clicker train my GS pup. But i havn't seen it around before. How much are they and where do you get them from? Thanks

[bridey_01]

Many dogs arn't at all food motivated, but if someone is intent on using purely positive methods it is easy to create a food motivated dog, by only ever feeding them in public places for about a week, then using their entire daily ration as training material for the next week. You end up with an intensly food motivated dog! I had to do this with my kelpie (but there are cars, CARS and bicycles, I MUST HERD THEM). Now she thinks "Ok, there are cars, but if i don't eat Im gonna be real hungry till tomorrow!"