Yukon horrible to meet people and other dogs

[yuckaduck]

I have this little monster doing extremely well in the field alone. At noon I took him for a small walk and proceeded to battle way to many times. I need advice on how to meet people? He jumps and bites [mouthy grabbing] and will not listen period. The commands that he does perfectly on his own have flowen out the window completely. Also same thing when meeting another dog or encountering one tied in a yard. He starts jumping towards it and barking and being a plain ass. Known commands are out the window. Even something as simple as a bird or a leaf grabs his mind. I know this is normal for puppies but me fighting with him can't be good because I look like a **** fool. How do I train him; how to behave appropriately in these situations?
He knows heel, sit, down, stay, come, by me until you get him out in the big old world then he is brain dead. Thanks in advance because I know I will get great suggestions from a few of you.

[Manchesters]

I have this little monster doing extremely well in the field alone. At noon I took him for a small walk and proceeded to battle way to many times. I need advice on how to meet people? He jumps and bites [mouthy grabbing] and will not listen period. The commands that he does perfectly on his own have flowen out the window completely. Also same thing when meeting another dog or encountering one tied in a yard. He starts jumping towards it and barking and being a plain ass. Known commands are out the window. Even something as simple as a bird or a leaf grabs his mind. I know this is normal for puppies but me fighting with him can't be good because I look like a **** fool. How do I train him; how to behave appropriately in these situations?
He knows heel, sit, down, stay, come, by me until you get him out in the big old world then he is brain dead. Thanks in advance because I know I will get great suggestions from a few of you.

It is time to enroll him in an obedience class. Either that or schedule meetings with other dog owners you know to meet in the field, etc.

Dogs are like kids---they figure when they get you out in public you won't discipline them. Like monster kids throwing fits in a store, and embarrassing the heck out of the parents.

It might also be good to teach him the WATCH ME, so that he keeps his eyes only on you at all times. This is fairly easy..watch me..leash pop....goodie when dog looks at you (either praise or food).

When I am more awake, I will get in touch. ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Fran27]

The only way I got Boris to stop jumping at people was to make the leash shorter so that he couldn't actually jump. He tried, but the leash was too short, so he stopped. It took lots of training at home for him to actually stop jumping on people outside. 2 weeks ago when we took him out to the parc, we walked past 3 kids and their dad on bikes, and the kid asked if they could pet the dog. They did, and Boris never jumped, with the 3 kids petting him, and even sat when we told him. The dad even said how well behaved he is, and we were soooo proud! He still jumps on people when they come in the house though...

The key I think is that when he's started meeting a lot of people, it will be less unusual for me, and he won't get excited as soon as he sees someone anymore. Then, he will stop jumping. The only advice I can give you is to keep walking him, as much as you can, until he gets used to meeting people and that he doesn't react to it anymore.

[bridey_01]

You have to build up his attention outside over time. To do this I feed all my dogs outside, in public places, so they know they only get fed if they work for me in all places. I don't even need a leash for my pup (though he wears one just in case) because he knows that everywhere wether outside or no I am his only source of food and hence survival. I've actually started taking him to all my clients houses as a calming dog and he is totally invaluble as a work partner. Watch me behaviours are a very good idea to start teaching attention outside.

[yuckaduck]

You have to build up his attention outside over time. To do this I feed all my dogs outside, in public places, so they know they only get fed if they work for me in all places. I don't even need a leash for my pup (though he wears one just in case) because he knows that everywhere wether outside or no I am his only source of food and hence survival. I've actually started taking him to all my clients houses as a calming dog and he is totally invaluble as a work partner. Watch me behaviours are a very good idea to start teaching attention outside.
Thank you but I would have to drive into the city twice a day to feed him in a crowd. With the price of gas I assure this is impossible for me. He will need to learn to behave under ever circumstance and I will continue to work with him. I think maybe a few trips to the pet store to try and work him near other dogs and people may be helpful. Thanks

[bridey_01]

The pet store would be a perfect place. Remember to start from a distance and work your way closer. Wish you the best of luck:)

[yuckaduck]

The pet store would be a perfect place. Remember to start from a distance and work your way closer. Wish you the best of luck:)
These pet stores are rarely busy so to find another person or dog may be an adenture all on its on. At least I have a better chance there than here where people really just don't care if you are training or not. Everyone rushes up and starts petting him even though he's jumping and biting. I ask and even down right tell them not to touch my dog but they do it anywhere. Talk about respect in people and rudeness. I would never touch another persons dog when they were working it. I am going to start telling them he has rabies maybe they smarten up and respect my wishes. Makes it aweful hard to teach a dog to not jump when he is being rewarded for it everytime. Thanks.

[bridey_01]

Tell me about it, I had to tell off a couple of girls today when Azlan jumped on them (hey, he's not perfect). They were cooing all over him and tapping their legs BEGGING him to jump. He doesn't bite anymore (well, at least not unless he is invited) but I can tell jumping is going to be a problem when people keep rewarding him so lavishly for it. I geuss I should spend all my time at the club with dog people who will turn away when he jumps, but that doesn't solve the issue when I am going to clients houses (who are usually very doggy people) and they invite him onto their laps even though he is quite a big boy now!

[yuckaduck]

Ah yes, but it is not kids or anything here it is adults who should no better. Yesterday I got dragged by Yuck into the street in his desperate attempt to get to another dog. Real safe being dragged into traffic. So when I drag the dog back to the sidewalk and tell him he's bad and give a simple leash correction; the idiots around say I am mean and abusive, poor pup. So I guess it is better to allow a dog to run into traffic, get hit by a car or maybe even attack another dog or bite someone or knock someone down and hump them. Hey that is his routine. So personnally I think Yuck needs to learn a few things. He is perfect in the fild all by himself. Now it is time to add distractions because this is rediculous behaviour.

[bridey_01]

Well, I wouldn't say these girls knew better, they are under mentoring to become instructors! Some people just cant resist "lassie", sigh.
I wouldn't call a choke chain abusive (that's what you're using?) just mildly ineffective (compared to other methods) and potentially harmful. Statistics show that dogs worked with chokers have considerable spinal damage which may result in abnormal neural activity.

[yuckaduck]

Well, I wouldn't say these girls knew better, they are under mentoring to become instructors! Some people just cant resist "lassie", sigh.
I wouldn't call a choke chain abusive (that's what you're using?) just mildly ineffective (compared to other methods) and potentially harmful. Statistics show that dogs worked with chokers have considerable spinal damage which may result in abnormal neural activity.
I use a slip collar and without it I would have serious problems. I am just going to start being nasty and if they try and touch my dog I'll tell them to bug off and go get their own dog to ruin. It is so bad here and I am very concerned about lawsuits because he bites and breaks skin when he is jumping on people. Just what I need Yuck to knock down a little old lady and have her break a hip. I will take control and by any means necessary.

[bridey_01]

Correction based training (as you are now discovering) is not entirely effective for a few reasons. Dogs themselves are hardwired to get what they want in spite of sometimes severe corrections (wolves are constantly kicked, bit, trampled and tossed about, but they still hunt).
What benifit is there for Yuck when he isn't jumping? Also, what kind of associations do you think you are making when you correct him around people?

[yuckaduck]

Correction based training (as you are now discovering) is not entirely effective for a few reasons. Dogs themselves are hardwired to get what they want in spite of sometimes severe corrections (wolves are constantly kicked, bit, trampled and tossed about, but they still hunt).
What benifit is there for Yuck when he isn't jumping? Also, what kind of associations do you think you are making when you correct him around people?
I think the dope needs more experience with people. I took him for a small walk here in our area just now. Man it is hot but anyway, at the park there were three kids 8-12 years old sitting at a picnic table. They were great kids asked if they could pet him and were sweet when I explained why not. They even sat at that table and allowed me to work Yuck right close to them. He only once broke the heel, and it was a small step towards the kids and a small leash corrections solved that problem. We did sit and stay as well, he seems to have forgotten down but I did it real close to him so I could assist him if he was forgetting. On our way back three construction guys were on the corner of our street. I almost brushed one guys back that is how close I got to them and Yuck remained in the heel. He did look at them but stayed in the heel. Also walked by a guy with shovel and a tractor, same thing he looked but no breaking the heel. If we continue this way I think he will only get better. Unfortunately we meet no dogs this time but maybe next time.

[poeluvr]

These pet stores are rarely busy so to find another person or dog may be an adenture all on its on. At least I have a better chance there than here where people really just don't care if you are training or not. Everyone rushes up and starts petting him even though he's jumping and biting. I ask and even down right tell them not to touch my dog but they do it anywhere. Talk about respect in people and rudeness. I would never touch another persons dog when they were working it. I am going to start telling them he has rabies maybe they smarten up and respect my wishes. Makes it aweful hard to teach a dog to not jump when he is being rewarded for it everytime. Thanks.
how old is yukon? im guessing hes old er cuz u have to drag him with all ur might to stop him from going into traffic
also wats breaking the heel

[yuckaduck]

how old is yukon? im guessing hes old er cuz u have to drag him with all ur might to stop him from going into traffic
also wats breaking the heel
He is 5 months old and weighs 60 pounds right now. When he starts going and puts those shoulders into it, he is hard to control. Heel is the position where the dog is directly beside you, head very close to your knee. Breaking the heel is wondering off from that position when asked to heel. A command that he knows very well I might add.

[poeluvr]

wow...good job!...with the heel thing
is he too old to be socilized? i have no idea..just something i wanna know

[Adrienne]

Some people eh?! While me and Gunnar were at the beach yet again yesterday this woman was walking her standard poodle w/out a leash on it. I had Gunnar in a down stay and he was being exceptionally good until her dog went over to our bag and peed on my bag and my kids shoes. She didn't even apologize! Gunnar didn't like another male marking his things so he went ballistic, barking, growling, hackles raised. It took a bit to regain control but all I had to do was jump into the water and he was right behind me making sure I didn't drown.
Did you say that Yukon came from police bred GSD? Can I ask why you would get a dog like that without already having experience with a more dominate breed like that? Why do you need a dog of that caliber? Just curious. I would highly recommend dog classes for you guys. You will learn how to work your dog and he will learn to respect you even with distractions. Gunnar is now seven months, over seventy pounds, and if he didn't listen so well I would be in a world of hurt. Even though he already knows all his commands in English, German, and hand signals we are still enrolled in Sept classes just to hone our skills. He works great offleash, at the beach, park, backyard, etc. but one can never have a too well trained dog. I plan on training him to be my ESA dog so we work a lot around distractions. It is still hard for him to listen and focus when another dog is near but he is getting so much better. Good luck with Yukon, he sounds like a brilliantly stubborn love!

[yuckaduck]

wow...good job!...with the heel thing
is he too old to be socilized? i have no idea..just something i wanna know
Oh the dumb butt has been socialized since he was 9 weeks old he is just being a butthead. He will get better.

[yuckaduck]

Some people eh?! While me and Gunnar were at the beach yet again yesterday this woman was walking her standard poodle w/out a leash on it. I had Gunnar in a down stay and he was being exceptionally good until her dog went over to our bag and peed on my bag and my kids shoes. She didn't even apologize! Gunnar didn't like another male marking his things so he went ballistic, barking, growling, hackles raised. It took a bit to regain control but all I had to do was jump into the water and he was right behind me making sure I didn't drown.
Did you say that Yukon came from police bred GSD? Can I ask why you would get a dog like that without already having experience with a more dominate breed like that? Why do you need a dog of that caliber? Just curious. I would highly recommend dog classes for you guys. You will learn how to work your dog and he will learn to respect you even with distractions. Gunnar is now seven months, over seventy pounds, and if he didn't listen so well I would be in a world of hurt. Even though he already knows all his commands in English, German, and hand signals we are still enrolled in Sept classes just to hone our skills. He works great offleash, at the beach, park, backyard, etc. but one can never have a too well trained dog. I plan on training him to be my ESA dog so we work a lot around distractions. It is still hard for him to listen and focus when another dog is near but he is getting so much better. Good luck with Yukon, he sounds like a brilliantly stubborn love!
Oh yes he is from 8 generations of police breeding and we got him because we had a trainer who trains with the OPP dogs who was suppose to help us. We were planning to breed the police dogs, eventually and were hoping Yukon would be our first dog in our breeding program. Of course many things need to happen before any of that happens. Like I need my house, and a proper set up for breeding. Then the dogs need tmperment tests and health tests and xrays and much more. Might help too if we actually had the dogs to do the test with. So it is only a future dream right now and in no way a reality. Now back to the trainer, he was suppose to help us and give us a free lesson each week in exchange for one free puppy when and if we ever did start breeding. Now the trainer decided that he would actually like to train Yukon as a police dog and sell him to the OPP as a trainer police dog. We of course said no we are not selling the little Yuck. So the nice guy that he is started giving us advice that we kinda found strange, like crating the dog 24/7 [we never did that], he told us to hit him over the head with the snap off our leash whenever he bit or mouthed us [again we did not do this]. I started getting really upset by the rough handling this guy was doing. He would almost hang poor Yuck when he was working with him, and we started having peeing problems with the dog. Everytime we would take a leash near him, he would squirt on the floor. So we found another trainer which is Manchesters who advises us over the phone and I look for advice and tips here on the forum. This caused a hugh war between the jerk and us, he admitted that he was leading us astray on the training because he was hoping we would get frustrated and just give him the dog. So now we are getting back on track. That is why we went for this dog, otherwise we would have not gotten any dog at this time in our life because if honestly we looked at our finances we can't afford a dog. But we have made sacrificies in other areas to be sure that Yuck is cared for and has enough of what all pups need. We have insurance and set aside emergency money for him, because you just never know. We are doing the best we can to be resposible owners and we do love the little monster.

[yuckaduck]

He has basic puppy obedience and advanced obedience classes done. Problem is we were the only ones in both classes so he has not been around other dogs much. When he goes to the kennel he plays with other dogs and gets along very well, but don't ask him to keep his brain in the right spot because he gets selective hearing there.

[Manchesters]

Well, I wouldn't say these girls knew better, they are under mentoring to become instructors! Some people just cant resist "lassie", sigh.
I wouldn't call a choke chain abusive (that's what you're using?) just mildly ineffective (compared to other methods) and potentially harmful. Statistics show that dogs worked with chokers have considerable spinal damage which may result in abnormal neural activity.

Show that dogs trained with a CORRECTLY used choke chain suffer absolutely NO spinal damage!!!! I wonder just how many here can describe the proper use of a choke chain? Would be interesting to see. I even go so far as to say that it is impossible to damage a dog's spine with proper use of this tool.

[Doberluv]

Well, you put the collar on so that the slipping part of the chain is lying flat across the top of the neck, not backwards where it is going under the neck...by the throat. This way it slips freely. You have enough length so that there are a few inches of play. You give a very quick, snapping motion which causes the chain to slide and very quickly release...before it tightens on the neck. It should not squeeze on the neck. The noise in and of itself....of the chain sliding is mostly what gets the dog's attention, not a tightening on his neck. You do not try and manuver the dog with direction. You just give a snap straight so the chain will slide through and release quickly. That's how it's done. However many, many people are very unfamiliar with how to train a dog....as that is apparent all over the place, so this and other potentially tortuous devices are not something I recommend. And what's more important, I find that motivation and reward based training works better than corrections anyhow. And that is backed up one side and down the other by many famous behaviorists and trainers. So...postive methods are the way to fly. IMO...of course. LOL.

[Manchesters]

Well, you put the collar on so that the slipping part of the chain is lying flat across the top of the neck, not backwards where it is going under the neck...by the throat. This way it slips freely. You have enough length so that there are a few inches of play. You give a very quick, snapping motion which causes the chain to slide and very quickly release...before it tightens on the neck. It should not squeeze on the neck. The noise in and of itself....of the chain sliding is mostly what gets the dog's attention, not a tightening on his neck. You do not try and manuver the dog with direction. You just give a snap straight so the chain will slide through and release quickly. That's how it's done. However many, many people are very unfamiliar with how to train a dog....as that is apparent all over the place, so this and other potentially tortuous devices are not something I recommend. And what's more important, I find that motivation and reward based training works better than corrections anyhow. And that is backed up one side and down the other by many famous behaviorists and trainers. So...postive methods are the way to fly. IMO...of course. LOL.

And we are off................

The dead ring is worn on the right side of the dog as you are FACING the dog. The leash attaches to the live ring. The rings are to be under the neck of the dog. This allows for a quick pull and release of the chain. The chain is pulled toward the right side of the handler, horizontal to the ground. NOT UP. Most trainers suggest holding the leash totally in the right hand, with that hand alongside the leg, out of sight of the dog so the dog receives no cues from that hand. And of course, the left arm hangs normally alongside the body.

You should never use food with dogs as far as obedience only because many dogs will not work in the obedience ring once they find that there is no food being given. Food is reserved for the conformation ring, to bait the dog to show expression, and show the ears.

Where did you ever learn about having the collar on TOP of the neck??? You might benefit from reading the rules for AKC obedience showing. They specify that the rings of the collar be under the neck of the dog, and there should be no tension on the leash at any time. Actually there should be no correction in the ring either....minor details.

[Adrienne]

When putting the collar on, the part of the chain connected to the live ring (the ring the leash is connected to) should be on top of the dog's neck. With the collar put on this way as soon as the leash is made loose the collar releases or relaxes. Correction collars work by making the collar tight then loose in a quick, snappy manner. Making the collar tight is the first half of the correction; making it loose again is the second half of making a correction.

If the live part of the collar goes under the dog's neck, the collar can be made tight, but it will not release back to a loose condition. This constant pressure on the neck elicits a counter pressure response. Most dogs will learn to strain and pull into the leash if they feel constant pressure around their neck.



http://www.101-dog-training-tips.com/doggie/Collar_On_Right_way.jpg

[Manchesters]

Well, you put the collar on so that the slipping part of the chain is lying flat across the top of the neck, not backwards where it is going under the neck...by the throat. This way it slips freely. You have enough length so that there are a few inches of play. You give a very quick, snapping motion which causes the chain to slide and very quickly release...before it tightens on the neck. It should not squeeze on the neck. The noise in and of itself....of the chain sliding is mostly what gets the dog's attention, not a tightening on his neck. You do not try and manuver the dog with direction. You just give a snap straight so the chain will slide through and release quickly. That's how it's done. However many, many people are very unfamiliar with how to train a dog....as that is apparent all over the place, so this and other potentially tortuous devices are not something I recommend. And what's more important, I find that motivation and reward based training works better than corrections anyhow. And that is backed up one side and down the other by many famous behaviorists and trainers. So...postive methods are the way to fly. IMO...of course. LOL.

What about dogs who work for praise?????? Praise is the most positive reinforcement there is!!!!! And it is always available! What on earth do you picture in your mind when you say "correction"??

[Old Dog]

I don't know where you people think that the use of choke chains is abusive and can cause spinal damage.Proper use of choke chains will get positive response when a correction is called for. This does not mean jerking or yanking on the dogs neck all the time. Nor do you yell and scream commands repeatedly at the dog. I don't know what kind of trainers you all have up north but there are very few of the old hard core military type trainers left down here. Like I said in another post if the word K-9 is in the add you best stay away.........reputable trainers rarely ever use that old term..........and in my 40years of training I have never seen a dog damaged by the proper use and I stress "proper" use in training.I have also been a vet tech for over a dozen years......and never incurred such injuries in the vet office.

[yuckaduck]

All I can say is I have followed Manchesters advice and again so far so good. I will try the pet store idea though and try and get the brat working around other dogs.

[Adrienne]

What about dogs who work for praise?????? Praise is the most positive reinforcement there is!!!!! And it is always available! What on earth do you picture in your mind when you say "correction"??
The only time Gunnar has gotten a "correction" was once upon a time when he was playing too rough with my son. Other than that it has always been praise and ignoring a behavior that I didn't want or replacing it with one I did. I don't have to yell at him, tug on his neck, scruff him, alpha roll him, etc. to get him to do what I want. I lure him to do what I want by using my hand, once he has got it down the hand is phazed out and the command replaces it (although I do hand signals as well). At seven months he has learned heel, down, sit, stay, leave it, search, come, up, speak, high five, jump, kennel, crate, find it (search is for people, find it for objects), and bed. I am sure I am skipping a couple, had a few beers, LOL. All of these started out with treats for the lure or play with a special toy that is only used for training. Now they are on a praise only basis and he still works just as hard. These commands are also taught in German and hand signals. I can't wait to go to obediance and wow them all! This was all taught without CORRECTIONS!! Just replacement of behavior that was unwanted with a command and behavior that is acceptable. I wish you could meet him Manchester, I think you would be pretty awed by how great he is!

[Manchesters]

When putting the collar on, the part of the chain connected to the live ring (the ring the leash is connected to) should be on top of the dog's neck. With the collar put on this way as soon as the leash is made loose the collar releases or relaxes. Correction collars work by making the collar tight then loose in a quick, snappy manner. Making the collar tight is the first half of the correction; making it loose again is the second half of making a correction.

If the live part of the collar goes under the dog's neck, the collar can be made tight, but it will not release back to a loose condition. This constant pressure on the neck elicits a counter pressure response. Most dogs will learn to strain and pull into the leash if they feel constant pressure around their neck.



http://www.101-dog-training-tips.com/doggie/Collar_On_Right_way.jpg

When the collar is on the dog absolutely loose, where are both rings?????

[Adrienne]

Well, I just tried it on Miss Katya and they stayed where they were even with slack on it...wierd huh? In the ring they all seem to be either on the side of the neck or on top of the neck without much slackness to them. Peeked on the AKC website but didn't find much. I will ask my friend who shows in the AKC and the UKC tomorrow about where she puts her collars on her dogs. Under the neck just doesn't make any sense to me though.

[Manchesters]

The only time Gunnar has gotten a "correction" was once upon a time when he was playing too rough with my son. Other than that it has always been praise and ignoring a behavior that I didn't want or replacing it with one I did. I don't have to yell at him, tug on his neck, scruff him, alpha roll him, etc. to get him to do what I want. I lure him to do what I want by using my hand, once he has got it down the hand is phazed out and the command replaces it (although I do hand signals as well). At seven months he has learned heel, down, sit, stay, leave it, search, come, up, speak, high five, jump, kennel, crate, find it (search is for people, find it for objects), and bed. I am sure I am skipping a couple, had a few beers, LOL. All of these started out with treats for the lure or play with a special toy that is only used for training. Now they are on a praise only basis and he still works just as hard. These commands are also taught in German and hand signals. I can't wait to go to obediance and wow them all! This was all taught without CORRECTIONS!! Just replacement of behavior that was unwanted with a command and behavior that is acceptable. I wish you could meet him Manchester, I think you would be pretty awed by how great he is!

I would love to meet him too. My only contention is that why go thru an unnecessary step such as using food, when it will eventually be removed. As far as showing the dog the behavior you want, what is supposed to be wrong with SHOWING the dog the behavior? I start my pups at 8 weeks of age while watching TV, rofl. You can show the sit and the down while sitting in your chair in the living room.

You aren't even supposed to give any corrections until you know the dog knows the command, and just ain't doing it.

Now with the Manchesters, forget it. They were trained for conformation. Last obedience training was 10 years ago.

[Adrienne]

There is nothing wrong with showing the dog the behavior you want but you don't actually have to put your hands on the dog to do it. It has been PROVEN that dogs learn quicker with these positive reinforcment methods and I am all about cutting corners and still maintaining excellent results. I also have been doing a bit of studying up on the Manchester breed. There have been quite a few that have excelled at both obediance and agility so they aren't only for conformation. I am glad they aren't that would be pretty sad to take a breed as tenacious as the Manchester and breed out all of their "tenacity". They had a job initially and they should be bred to still perform it in my humble opinion.

[yuckaduck]

Every trainer that has talked about slip collars said dead ring to the right as you face the dog and leash on live ring. Rings at bottom of neck.

[Manchesters]

Well, I just tried it on Miss Katya and they stayed where they were even with slack on it...wierd huh? In the ring they all seem to be either on the side of the neck or on top of the neck without much slackness to them. Peeked on the AKC website but didn't find much. I will ask my friend who shows in the AKC and the UKC tomorrow about where she puts her collars on her dogs. Under the neck just doesn't make any sense to me though.

Well, I just tried it on Miss Katya and they stayed where they were even with slack on it...wierd huh? In the ring they all seem to be either on the side of the neck or on top of the neck without much slackness to them. Peeked on the AKC website but didn't find much. I will ask my friend who shows in the AKC and the UKC tomorrow about where she puts her collars on her dogs. Under the neck just doesn't make any sense to me though.

What size link is on that collar? Was the dead ring on the right side?
If you want to really get a good collar, get a jewel link, or a snake chain. If you have bulky links, you are right, it will hang up. And also ONLY USE A GERMAN MADE COLLAR. They are the finest quality.
The collar shown on that Boxer is too coarse a link. There should be no open space showing INSIDE each link. A jewel link is a flat chain.

[Adrienne]

I don't actually use that collar on Katya for anything other than tieing her out. She can break flat collars so this is the safest. I will try to find a link to show what kind I use on her. Isn't there a difference between what is used in the ring and what is used for training?

It's a fur saver collar, large links.

[Manchesters]

I don't actually use that collar on Katya for anything other than tieing her out. She can break flat collars so this is the safest. I will try to find a link to show what kind I use on her. Isn't there a difference between what is used in the ring and what is used for training?

It's a fur saver collar, large links.

There really shouldn't be any difference, unless you resort to using prong collars for training. If you get a German made snake chain collar I can about guarentee that she won't break it.

Fur saver collars are not designed for training. More for pet people who let their dogs pull them down the street.

Iread you are quitting smoking---congrats. We can get the Nicorette here over the counter....do you really have to get a prescription for it??? That is a bummer!

Now, I trained a ton of Dobie pups over the years, and had no trouble teaching the sit and down to 6 week olds just doing it the old fashioned way. With many pups if you hold food over their heads they want to get on the hind legs, which is a big NO NO in Dobes.

There have maybe been 10 Manchesters that earned obedience titles in the last hundred years. And I think only one was a TOY Manchester. There is a big difference in personality between Standard and Toy Manchesters. Toys are evil little brats!!!! You sure wouldn't use food to "guide" them into position for nuttin', rofl. They would be leaping in the air or shineying up your leg to get the food, rofl.

[Adrienne]

Like I said, it isn't for training her, just making sure she can't eat the neighbors, LOL! I will check out the snake collar for her and order one tonight. I use the leader when we are working or walking.

We can get the gum OTC but my insurance pays for it so might as well get it for free ya know!

I am glad that what you have done per training has worked for you. My first dog Java was trained that way, she was a springer/setter mix and stubborn as all he!!. I just find that me and Gunnar have the greatest bond that I have ever had the priviledge of having with a dog. It works for me and for him and I am extremely pleased with it. I am not one to knock something till I try it and since I have done both ways and Gunnar is the first dog I have trained this way I can see a big difference in the way he responds to me and the ease with which he was trained. Maybe it is because he is a German Shepherd and they are supposed to be extremely intelligent, maybe it is because he responded better this way. I guess I will never know. I hope that for the people who choose to try your methods that it works. Some dogs require different rearing just as different children require different parenting techniques. As long as we are both helping people with their dog problems then what the hay, were are doing what we should be on a dog fourm right!

[Old Dog]

Concerning the pic of the boxer with the choke chain......good demo of proper position of the collar, however, that collar is too small for that dog. You would not be able to give proper correction and it would constantly choke the dog because the collar is too small. You should have aleast when the collar is pulled a 3 inch give to the collar. Proper fit is important, also those fat linked collars like that tend to hang and not release very well. Might I add......play time at the park or dog walk is exactly that it should not be confusing for the dog as to what he is out for. A walk is a walk. Training session is just that.........that should be separate activities and separate area or place............of course the dog should be able to be controlled when at a dog park but keeping one on command all the time can lead to a bored and misbehaving dog..........in the dogs mind it should all be fun.........You get less results also if you train in say your back yard....thats where he lives and should not be trained there. His serious training sessions,healing,staying ect should be done else where. Thats not to say not to work with him or her on his manners ect in the house.........that is different. Consistency is the trick be consistant............bad habits are easier to prevent than to correct........most bad behaved dogs are the products of there owners more times over than bad breeding. Off my soap box now, LOL.

[yuckaduck]

Concerning the pic of the boxer with the choke chain......good demo of proper position of the collar, however, that collar is too small for that dog. You would not be able to give proper correction and it would constantly choke the dog because the collar is too small. You should have aleast when the collar is pulled a 3 inch give to the collar. Proper fit is important, also those fat linked collars like that tend to hang and not release very well. Might I add......play time at the park or dog walk is exactly that it should not be confusing for the dog as to what he is out for. A walk is a walk. Training session is just that.........that should be separate activities and separate area or place............of course the dog should be able to be controlled when at a dog park but keeping one on command all the time can lead to a bored and misbehaving dog..........in the dogs mind it should all be fun.........You get less results also if you train in say your back yard....thats where he lives and should not be trained there. His serious training sessions,healing,staying ect should be done else where. Thats not to say not to work with him or her on his manners ect in the house.........that is different. Consistency is the trick be consistant............bad habits are easier to prevent than to correct........most bad behaved dogs are the products of there owners more times over than bad breeding. Off my soap box now, LOL.
I guess I have the right size for Yuck than. Thanks for mentioning size because I thought it was too big but it fits exactly as you say so I guess it is good. Thanks for the great information.

[Old Dog]

Fur saver collars are just that.......we used them alot on german shepherds because the hair does not get caught between the small links and tear the coat. Alot of shepherd people and anyone with a coated dog use them but they are not for training.............although I have seen them used. I've used all kinds........I have even trained with what they call a dead link where there is no choking.........it works..........its like baking a cake as long as the end result is a cake who cares how you mix it together...........if we all trained the same we wouldn't be having this thread.......not to say one method is better than the other just some get better results than others. If your preferance is bait training fine I personally don't want a dog that thinks everytime he comes he gets a treat,that is for cute tricks not obedience.......I want him to come "happily" because I said so..........period. And I don't ask him to come or heal, I tell him to come or heal there is a differance......inflection of your voice is the key.................

[yuckaduck]

Old Dog what is your suggestion to get my monster to be polite when meeting other dogs on the street? I know what Manchesters has said sure works with humans but have not had the opportunity to try it with dogs.

[Adrienne]

Fur saver collars are just that.......we used them alot on german shepherds because the hair does not get caught between the small links and tear the coat. Alot of shepherd people and anyone with a coated dog use them but they are not for training.............although I have seen them used. I've used all kinds........I have even trained with what they call a dead link where there is no choking.........it works..........its like baking a cake as long as the end result is a cake who cares how you mix it together...........if we all trained the same we wouldn't be having this thread.......not to say one method is better than the other just some get better results than others. If your preferance is bait training fine I personally don't want a dog that thinks everytime he comes he gets a treat,that is for cute tricks not obedience.......I want him to come "happily" because I said so..........period. And I don't ask him to come or heal, I tell him to come or heal there is a differance......inflection of your voice is the key.................

I don't "bait" train. Gunnar works for play or praise now. Initially it was food or play, what motivates him to do what I ask. How do you think they get those two ton Killer Whales to perform in Sea World? Not through domanice, through motivation. I would rather have my dog happily obeying me than doing it out of fear anyday and he is 110% realible, on leash, off leash, German commands, hand signals, whatever. I agree different strokes for different folks but don't knock it till you try it!

[Doberluv]

Adrenne, your picture is how I put a collar on when training back in the old days when I trained that way.

Exactly right on about the whales and dolphins. Yeah right....ROFLOL. I can just see those trainers now yanking on a collar and scruffing them, especially when they're way down at the bottom of the tank retrieving something. "OH! bad whale! You know better. I'm going to have to punish that so you'll do it next time." LOL. Does Mr. Killer Whale like fish to eat? You bet he does. If naughty whale doesn't retrieve the object....guess what? No fish. He has an option. He chooses the one that will get him the yummy fish. Duh.....hello!

Most enlightened trainers of today use food rewards along with praise. Dogs are hunters and have an inherent wish to survive. They place a high value on food.They are very glad for praise, yes. But food is extra and gives extra incentive for a dog to perform. They have something to work for which is very highly prized. Of course, dogs will work for praise alone. Everyone knows that, but it's the extra oomph that you get out of a dog that gives them momentum and drive to really try harder. I didn't use to use treats in the old days and now I do. The increased speed at which they learn is very noticeable.

Food rewards don't make a dog dependent on food for performance once they know the skill well. If you learn something about operant conditioning based training methods, you would find out about something called scheduled reinforcements. It drives me mad when people knock something but they don't know anything about it. It has been proven to be most effective in training all mammals because it is based on LEARNING behavior. You do not have to "correct" or punish a behavior in order for it to cease. That is a scientific behavioral law just as proven as is the law of gravity. So, I have no idea why I'm even in this discussion. Why on earth would I argue about fact? Opinion is another thing.

My Doberman is doing very well with behavior, agility and getting into some advanced obedience. I don't use corrections at all when training. How could I when he's sometimes 100 feet away from me or more? His recall is quite reliable and so are his long down stays, along with a lot of other skills. He can apply them in various situations and enviornments.

He certainly didn't give me much trouble lunging or jumping on people or anything else by the time he was 6 months old. And he has quite a drivey temperament.

I agree with you Adrienne. I too have trained both ways and the difference is phenomenal.

[yuckaduck]

Adrenne, your picture is how I put a collar on when training back in the old days when I trained that way.

Exactly right on about the whales and dolphins. Yeah right....ROFLOL. I can just see those trainers now yanking on a collar and scruffing them, especially when they're way down at the bottom of the tank retrieving something. "OH! bad whale! You know better. I'm going to have to punish that so you'll do it next time." LOL. Does Mr. Killer Whale like fish to eat? You bet he does. If naughty whale doesn't retrieve the object....guess what? No fish. He has an option. He chooses the one that will get him the yummy fish. Duh.....hello!

Most enlightened trainers of today use food rewards along with praise. Dogs are hunters and have an inherent wish to survive. They place a high value on food.They are very glad for praise, yes. But food is extra and gives extra incentive for a dog to perform. They have something to work for which is very highly prized. Of course, dogs will work for praise alone. Everyone knows that, but it's the extra oomph that you get out of a dog that gives them momentum and drive to really try harder. I didn't use to use treats in the old days and now I do. The increased speed at which they learn is very noticeable.

Food rewards don't make a dog dependent on food for performance once they know the skill well. If you learn something about operant conditioning based training methods, you would find out about something called scheduled reinforcements. It drives me mad when people knock something but they don't know anything about it. It has been proven to be most effective in training all mammals because it is based on LEARNING behavior. You do not have to "correct" or punish a behavior in order for it to cease. That is a scientific behavioral law just as proven as is the law of gravity. So, I have no idea why I'm even in this discussion. Why on earth would I argue about fact? Opinion is another thing.

My Doberman is doing very well with behavior, agility and getting into some advanced obedience. I don't use corrections at all when training. How could I when he's sometimes 100 feet away from me or more? His recall is quite reliable and so are his long down stays, along with a lot of other skills. He can apply them in various situations and enviornments.

He certainly didn't give me much trouble lunging or jumping on people or anything else by the time he was 6 months old. And he has quite a drivey temperament.

I agree with you Adrienne. I too have trained both ways and the difference is phenomenal.
I can only speak for myself and my dog, If I do not correct Yukon he thinks he is right and the bad continues. He must be corrected in order for the behaviour that is unwanted to cease. It is a must, or he learns nothing. I'm not saying that positive reinforcement does not work for you but for me and my dog it is useless because it does not work. Three months of trying to train this dog with positive reinforcement and 2 weeks with simple non aggressive leash corrections. I have a dog who knows all his commands and before he would only do what he felt like doing.

[Manchesters]

I don't "bait" train. Gunnar works for play or praise now. Initially it was food or play, what motivates him to do what I ask. How do you think they get those two ton Killer Whales to perform in Sea World? Not through domanice, through motivation. I would rather have my dog happily obeying me than doing it out of fear anyday and he is 110% realible, on leash, off leash, German commands, hand signals, whatever. I agree different strokes for different folks but don't knock it till you try it!

What on earth do you mean by fear?????? Why would you be so unkind as to suggest that others who don't wave food in front of their dog is training it through fear??????? A dog is NOT going to work happily and consistently if it is afraid of the trainer!

And just WHERE would the fear come from? I don't know what your experience has been, but you must have been around some really crude, ignorant, abusive trainers!!!!! I only wish you could have known old Fartblossom! Dogs don't place 1st or 2nd at obedience trials when they are trained with abusive methods. When Max finished his C.D. there were 30 dogs entered. There was even a run off. And he took 1st. I believe only 16 qualified. The judge had a very heavy pencil!!!!

Geezzzzzz, I wish some of ya'll would quit calling those of us with different styles of training dog beaters and abusers!!!!!!!

[yuckaduck]

What on earth do you mean by fear?????? Why would you be so unkind as to suggest that others who don't wave food in front of their dog is training it through fear??????? A dog is NOT going to work happily and consistently if it is afraid of the trainer!

And just WHERE would the fear come from? I don't know what your experience has been, but you must have been around some really crude, ignorant, abusive trainers!!!!! I only wish you could have known old Fartblossom! Dogs don't place 1st or 2nd at obedience trials when they are trained with abusive methods. When Max finished his C.D. there were 30 dogs entered. There was even a run off. And he took 1st. I believe only 16 qualified. The judge had a very heavy pencil!!!!

Geezzzzzz, I wish some of ya'll would quit calling those of us with different styles of training dog beaters and abusers!!!!!!!
It is just a desperate attempt to begrade one point to make another seem more valid. I would never ever abuse the Yuck no matter who said too. I best never hear anyone suggest it either, or ever accuse me of such nonsense because I guarante it will cause a fight.

[Manchesters]

Adrenne, your picture is how I put a collar on when training back in the old days when I trained that way.

Exactly right on about the whales and dolphins. Yeah right....ROFLOL. I can just see those trainers now yanking on a collar and scruffing them, especially when they're way down at the bottom of the tank retrieving something. "OH! bad whale! You know better. I'm going to have to punish that so you'll do it next time." LOL. Does Mr. Killer Whale like fish to eat? You bet he does. If naughty whale doesn't retrieve the object....guess what? No fish. He has an option. He chooses the one that will get him the yummy fish. Duh.....hello!

Most enlightened trainers of today use food rewards along with praise. Dogs are hunters and have an inherent wish to survive. They place a high value on food.They are very glad for praise, yes. But food is extra and gives extra incentive for a dog to perform. They have something to work for which is very highly prized. Of course, dogs will work for praise alone. Everyone knows that, but it's the extra oomph that you get out of a dog that gives them momentum and drive to really try harder. I didn't use to use treats in the old days and now I do. The increased speed at which they learn is very noticeable.

Food rewards don't make a dog dependent on food for performance once they know the skill well. If you learn something about operant conditioning based training methods, you would find out about something called scheduled reinforcements. It drives me mad when people knock something but they don't know anything about it. It has been proven to be most effective in training all mammals because it is based on LEARNING behavior. You do not have to "correct" or punish a behavior in order for it to cease. That is a scientific behavioral law just as proven as is the law of gravity. So, I have no idea why I'm even in this discussion. Why on earth would I argue about fact? Opinion is another thing.

My Doberman is doing very well with behavior, agility and getting into some advanced obedience. I don't use corrections at all when training. How could I when he's sometimes 100 feet away from me or more? His recall is quite reliable and so are his long down stays, along with a lot of other skills. He can apply them in various situations and enviornments.

He certainly didn't give me much trouble lunging or jumping on people or anything else by the time he was 6 months old. And he has quite a drivey temperament.

I agree with you Adrienne. I too have trained both ways and the difference is phenomenal.

I have never needed anything to get any extra ooompf from my dogs. They gave me their all joyously and as responsively as I could have wanted. And possibly because my dogs were very well fed, food didn't do a thing for them. There are tons of dogs for whom food is no turn on. Just talk to any professional dog handler, rofl. I spent many a show buying chicken salad sandwiches, ham sandwiches, hot dogs, etc at a show because the dog decided it didn't want to bait for liver!!!!!!

What is this about punishing behavior? What does that mean? And correcting simply means a slight pop of the collar....mainly just to remind the dog of what it is supposed to be doing, lol.

I have trained several of the Manchesters to "say how do you do"...aka shake hands. I only really play around with it. Not training for blood. Well, during the process of teaching Lucy Goose to do it, her sisters Missy and Kammi picked it up, and now hop up on the hasock and wave their paw in the air at me. No food no operant anything. Just for the fun of it, lol. Surprised the heck out of me.

Of course, Toy Manchesters can be perverse little devils. A really wicked sense of humor........just like mine, heheheh.

You don't need bribes or clickers with dogs.......they don't weigh 2000 pounds, and you don't have to worry about them killing you accidently. You can get up close and personal with dogs. You can SHOW them what you want much more quickly than with a bloody Shamu!!!!! Old Max only took on average 3 times of showing him what I wanted for him to understand. And I trained with with voice and hand signals simultaneouly. Saved time that way. He was trained for CDX level, but then John Binghams U.D. dog developed CVI from all the jumps and stuff he had done, and I figured old Max could just spend the rest of his life resting on his lorals. Didn't want him hurting his neck. I went through it later with Misty, and it was heartbreaking to see her. Hers was caused by CVI.

[Manchesters]

PLUS, some dogs are just retarded-----or act as though they were! That is likely why there are so many different methods. Different strokes for different dogs. Training has to be customized to each dog.

[Doberluv]

I don't think corrections are cruel or abusive...not at all. That's not the point. The point is that it has been proven that it is more effective to show the dog what you do want more than show what you don't want. As it was stated before, these positive methods are used very widely with all kinds of animals. Dolphins and whales who dive for explosive detection for the military, the ones used in Sea World and those places, animal actors, therapy and assistance dogs, cats, horses, goats...you name it. It's all based on learning behavior of mammals.

When you say you tried positive methods, I don't think you have a full understanding of how it is correctly done. You're leaving out important factors or something in the method. But that's OK. If this works for you and your dog is getting obedient and is happy, that's great. I don't have a problem with regular corrections at all. I just have seen many dogs and other animals trained with training based on operant and classical conditioning done right and it works, not only with easy animals but all kinds of them. They learn better, get smarter and they're much happier. It may be hard to imagine a happier dog than you already have but the bonding and relationship creates a much happier and better working animal.

Your dogs are not so different and unique. There are a lot more difficult animals out there that are continually and successfully trained in this way. You're just not educated enough with these methods and that's OK. It's not meant as an insult. It does take some considerable learning and experience. If you're in a hurry and correction, punishment or emphasis on what the dog is doing wrong is working well enough, then go for it.

[bridey_01]

"My dogs work for praise!" arn't they just the silliest words you hear from old school trainers. Most of the time I find yes, the dogs will work for praise, as the verbal praise itself has been linked with RELIEF from the check chain, kind of like a "ok, you're not going to be punished now".
Not only is this method much slower and harder for the average rookie trainer to use, it has potential for great damage and painful misuse (such as helicoptering). It is better to give a cookie at the wrong time than a correction.

[Manchesters]

"My dogs work for praise!" arn't they just the silliest words you hear from old school trainers. Most of the time I find yes, the dogs will work for praise, as the verbal praise itself has been linked with RELIEF from the check chain, kind of like a "ok, you're not going to be punished now".
Not only is this method much slower and harder for the average rookie trainer to use, it has potential for great damage and painful misuse (such as helicoptering). It is better to give a cookie at the wrong time than a correction.

I guess if there is such widespread ignorance about the above method it is better for those who are ignorant use bribes and clickers, ince they do not have the skill to properly use the slip chain. I have not yet read any post that contained the knowlege of the correct techniques employed in the above described method. If anyone were actually familiar with the use of the choke chain, and the giving of praise, and had had the opportunity to see a dog being PROPERLY trained using this method, such stupid statements would no longer have to be read!!!!!!

Oh, and the above statement is actually retarded when the fact that Dobermans were involved in the training. Ever heard of CVI????? Plus the fact that Dobermans are excruciatingly sensitive.

And what is the big deal with faster????? You people got other things you would rather do than be working and communicating with your dogs? And I presume you read my post where I stated that old Max placed 3 out his 5 trials??? And at one of them was Highest Scoring Doberman In Trial? Have YOU ever shown in obedience? Have you ever trained a Dobe? I find it hard to believe or you would not make such asinine statements. I am rather disappointed in you. You must have been around some really ignorant abusive trainers to even say such things. I am sorry you had such a bad experience!

[Manchesters]

"My dogs work for praise!" arn't they just the silliest words you hear from old school trainers. Most of the time I find yes, the dogs will work for praise, as the verbal praise itself has been linked with RELIEF from the check chain, kind of like a "ok, you're not going to be punished now".
Not only is this method much slower and harder for the average rookie trainer to use, it has potential for great damage and painful misuse (such as helicoptering). It is better to give a cookie at the wrong time than a correction.

Once again.......what is the "punished" you refer to??????? No trainer of know of punishes a dog. Again, you must have associated with some real ignorant doozies!!!!!! Why would you even think of punishment????? Geeezzzzzz. I can't understand someone making such statements when obviously they do not have any familiarity with the style, method/technique described as "old school".

[bridey_01]

I have a great familiarity with check chain training, as I have stated numerous times before it is part and parcel of my education as a canine behaviourist. You are right about one thing, I have seen some very abusive, extremely dangerous uses of the check chain. These involve swinging the dog around above the ground till it begins to lose consiousness. This, of course, is not the correct way to use a check collar. I have been to many (countless) training schools of both varieties (some that were a mixture of the two) and have found through years of personal experience that positive training (I won't even go into the ignorant suggestion about bribing, obviously you don't have the faintest clue of how the technique works) works better, developes a wonderful loving relationship between dog and handler, eliminates ALL stress factors, calms hyper dogs, gives confidence to shy ones and generally beats the living **** out of "old style" training. I have [U]Never[U] and I mean never met a dog I couldn't train using simple common sense techniques. However, I have met many old school trainers who are constantly being growled at (which they then punish, thereby effectively removing their only warning!) bitten and in one case mauled for "correcting" a dog. As for punishment, would you care to tell me the differenece between "correcting" a dog and "punishing" one?
As for the doberman topic, that came out of the blue and I don't see how it is related to the current discussion.

[yuckaduck]

I don't think corrections are cruel or abusive...not at all. That's not the point. The point is that it has been proven that it is more effective to show the dog what you do want more than show what you don't want. As it was stated before, these positive methods are used very widely with all kinds of animals. Dolphins and whales who dive for explosive detection for the military, the ones used in Sea World and those places, animal actors, therapy and assistance dogs, cats, horses, goats...you name it. It's all based on learning behavior of mammals.

When you say you tried positive methods, I don't think you have a full understanding of how it is correctly done. You're leaving out important factors or something in the method. But that's OK. If this works for you and your dog is getting obedient and is happy, that's great. I don't have a problem with regular corrections at all. I just have seen many dogs and other animals trained with training based on operant and classical conditioning done right and it works, not only with easy animals but all kinds of them. They learn better, get smarter and they're much happier. It may be hard to imagine a happier dog than you already have but the bonding and relationship creates a much happier and better working animal.

Your dogs are not so different and unique. There are a lot more difficult animals out there that are continually and successfully trained in this way. You're just not educated enough with these methods and that's OK. It's not meant as an insult. It does take some considerable learning and experience. If you're in a hurry and correction, punishment or emphasis on what the dog is doing wrong is working well enough, then go for it.
So 3 months of being bit and jumped on and having my toddlers bit is not longer enough. I need to wait what a year, two three......? Positive reinforcement is not for every animal it does not work for every animal and you are trying to lead people to believe such nonsense.

[yuckaduck]

I have a great familiarity with check chain training, as I have stated numerous times before it is part and parcel of my education as a canine behaviourist. You are right about one thing, I have seen some very abusive, extremely dangerous uses of the check chain. These involve swinging the dog around above the ground till it begins to lose consiousness. This, of course, is not the correct way to use a check collar. I have been to many (countless) training schools of both varieties (some that were a mixture of the two) and have found through years of personal experience that positive training (I won't even go into the ignorant suggestion about bribing, obviously you don't have the faintest clue of how the technique works) works better, developes a wonderful loving relationship between dog and handler, eliminates ALL stress factors, calms hyper dogs, gives confidence to shy ones and generally beats the living **** out of "old style" training. I have [U]Never[U] and I mean never met a dog I couldn't train using simple common sense techniques. However, I have met many old school trainers who are constantly being growled at (which they then punish, thereby effectively removing their only warning!) bitten and in one case mauled for "correcting" a dog. As for punishment, would you care to tell me the differenece between "correcting" a dog and "punishing" one?
As for the doberman topic, that came out of the blue and I don't see how it is related to the current discussion.
Again positive reinforcement does not work for every dog and you leading people to believe such stupidity just makes me loose all respect I ever had for you. I really thought better of you, oooops my mistake. 3 months is not long enough to be dripping in blood from being bite, how long one year, two three.....? Should I wait until he bites someone else? Maybe wait until he he has been ordered destroyed? Wake up some dogs require a nice gentle hands on approach. The old school way certainly work well here and Yuck is happy happy and joyous towards all of us now. He is stressfree and works for us with pleasure. I have not seen him happier. I would never bother with the wasted time of positive reinforcement again. I would go straight with the corrections and then reward the desired behaviour. That works everytime with everyanimal. Now if Yuck gets it wrong all I have to do is deep voice NO and he does what was asked right away.

[Manchesters]

I have a great familiarity with check chain training, as I have stated numerous times before it is part and parcel of my education as a canine behaviourist. You are right about one thing, I have seen some very abusive, extremely dangerous uses of the check chain. These involve swinging the dog around above the ground till it begins to lose consiousness. This, of course, is not the correct way to use a check collar. I have been to many (countless) training schools of both varieties (some that were a mixture of the two) and have found through years of personal experience that positive training (I won't even go into the ignorant suggestion about bribing, obviously you don't have the faintest clue of how the technique works) works better, developes a wonderful loving relationship between dog and handler, eliminates ALL stress factors, calms hyper dogs, gives confidence to shy ones and generally beats the living **** out of "old style" training. I have [U]Never[U] and I mean never met a dog I couldn't train using simple common sense techniques. However, I have met many old school trainers who are constantly being growled at (which they then punish, thereby effectively removing their only warning!) bitten and in one case mauled for "correcting" a dog. As for punishment, would you care to tell me the differenece between "correcting" a dog and "punishing" one?
As for the doberman topic, that came out of the blue and I don't see how it is related to the current discussion.

Well now, correct mean giving an instantaneous quick pull-release of the collar...a reminder to the dog. Punish means to discipline in a heavy handed way.....at least to me. I still say you must have been exposed to a bunch of real ignoramuses that use the collar to jerk the dog and rattle its eyeballs in its head!!!! I have seen ass holes like that.

The Doberman did not come up out of the blue.....Dobermans are very prone to cervical vertabrae instability. You DO NOT jerk Dobermans around. You use the leash so lightly that the dog does not even know it has a collar on.

You do not seem to realize that IT IS THE NOISE MADE BY THE SLIP COLLAR that gives the "correction". The effect of the collar itself on the dog is the same as someone tapping you on the shoulder.

Again, I am sorry that you have been left with such a bad impression of what is a very effective training method. I used it when I trained my dogs and it worked wonderously. My dogs were happy campers. But I do wish that you would someday recognize the fact that it does work, is NOT cruel or abusive, and that those of us who used it were not "punishing" our dogs.

If that is not possible for you to picture how such a thing can be true, then the problem is perhaps because of your limited experience with that technique. I say limited, because if you had full experience, you would NOT being saying what you are.

Oh, and there have been quite a few people killed who used positive reinforcement on animals......or didn't you see the picture of the Orca that deliberately hurled itself upon its trainer? Or how about the elephants that have killed perfectly kind trainers??

I absolutely cannot understand why you say someone who properly trains a dog using the chain collar would get bitten?? Perhaps because the dog had an unstable temperament and resented authority?

Anyway, if feeding dogs' faces to get them to do their tricks works for you, then of course you certainly should use it. Perhaps you just don't have what is needed to be effective with what is generally referred to as "obedience training" around here. To each of us his/her own!

[Manchesters]

"My dogs work for praise!" arn't they just the silliest words you hear from old school trainers. Most of the time I find yes, the dogs will work for praise, as the verbal praise itself has been linked with RELIEF from the check chain, kind of like a "ok, you're not going to be punished now".
Not only is this method much slower and harder for the average rookie trainer to use, it has potential for great damage and painful misuse (such as helicoptering). It is better to give a cookie at the wrong time than a correction.

Just had a thought.......I hate to be the one to have to say this, but there ain't a thing "old" school about training basic obedience. It is still the most effective method available-----when used by someone who knows how to utilize it PROPERLY.

[Adrienne]

Manchester and Yuck, dogs trained with corrections do the behavior to avoid the correction right? That to me means that they have a "fear" or "avoidance" of the uncomfortable response they get when they don't get it right. I would rather my dog works for me becuause he wants to not because if he doesn't I will force him to do so.
Maybe Yuck is just to much dog for you, at five months you seem to be expecting an awful lot out of a pup that just doesn't seem to be getting it whichever way you are training. You yourself admit that you still have a few wrinkle to iron out of his behavior. Trying positive training for three months and still having issues with your pup doesn't mean that he couldn't be trained with reinforcment, you just aren't willing to clock in the hours or you aren't doing it right. Fine for you, use correction methods and I am sure eventually Yuck will give up on fighting you to avoid getting corrected. That's how it works with that kind of training. It has to be uncomfortable enough for him to want to avoid the correction. Personally I would rather motivate my dog to do what I ask of him. Especially a five month old pup. So don't bother to say that it doesn't work, especially for a young pup like that. Katya comes from Russian Military lines....she was trained using correction methods by my mom. Now at six years of age we have started on positive reinforcment and she no longer barks constantly, she comes immediately when called and performs all commands immediately only because she wants to. In the past she was quite a handful for my mom and now mom can't believe what an excellent girl she has turned into, so much better behaved. To each their own once again, but like Dobe said it isn't a matter of opinion, it is fact that positive reinforcement training is much quicker for the dog to learn. There is no fear or avoidance in training, it is for the pure joy of doing a job well done and getting praised for it.

[Manchesters]

Manchester and Yuck, dogs trained with corrections do the behavior to avoid the correction right? That to me means that they have a "fear" or "avoidance" of the uncomfortable response they get when they don't get it right. I would rather my dog works for me becuause he wants to not because if he doesn't I will force him to do so.
Maybe Yuck is just to much dog for you, at five months you seem to be expecting an awful lot out of a pup that just doesn't seem to be getting it whichever way you are training. You yourself admit that you still have a few wrinkle to iron out of his behavior. Trying positive training for three months and still having issues with your pup doesn't mean that he couldn't be trained with reinforcment, you just aren't willing to clock in the hours or you aren't doing it right. Fine for you, use correction methods and I am sure eventually Yuck will give up on fighting you to avoid getting corrected. That's how it works with that kind of training. It has to be uncomfortable enough for him to want to avoid the correction. Personally I would rather motivate my dog to do what I ask of him. Especially a five month old pup. So don't bother to say that it doesn't work, especially for a young pup like that. Katya comes from Russian Military lines....she was trained using correction methods by my mom. Now at six years of age we have started on positive reinforcment and she no longer barks constantly, she comes immediately when called and performs all commands immediately only because she wants to. In the past she was quite a handful for my mom and now mom can't believe what an excellent girl she has turned into, so much better behaved. To each their own once again, but like Dobe said it isn't a matter of opinion, it is fact that positive reinforcement training is much quicker for the dog to learn. There is no fear or avoidance in training, it is for the pure joy of doing a job well done and getting praised for it.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

No dog should be working to avoid correction or punishment. They should be working because its pleases the "master" and the master offers praise. Lots of very enthusiastic praise. When the dog does not do as asked, a slight signal from the leash and NO instead of praise is received. Praise=positive reinforcement. The NO and leash correction encourages the dog to try again, and then it gets the praise. You do not repeat a command if the dog knows that particualr command full well. You give the correction and NO. The correction is the equivilant of tapping the dog on the shoulder or even between the ears with one finger and saying "Ya blew it that time, try again".

Just how did your mother give corrections? Did the dog's head move at all when she did? Even a nano-meter of movement means the correction was done incorrectly. The technique did not fail.....your mom's application of the method failed!

[Adrienne]

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

No dog should be working to avoid correction or punishment. They should be working because its pleases the "master" and the master offers praise. Lots of very enthusiastic praise. When the dog does not do as asked, a slight signal from the leash and NO instead of praise is received. Praise=positive reinforcement. The NO and leash correction encourages the dog to try again, and then it gets the praise. You do not repeat a command if the dog knows that particualr command full well. You give the correction and NO. The correction is the equivilant of tapping the dog on the shoulder or even between the ears with one finger and saying "Ya blew it that time, try again".

Just how did your mother give corrections? Did the dog's head move at all when she did? Even a nano-meter of movement means the correction was done incorrectly. The technique did not fail.....your mom's application of the method failed!

I am so sorry Manchester but whay you say has not an ounce of truth to it. They work harder to avoid the correction. They don't want to be corrected they want the praise. If they were motivated to work for the praise in the first place they would never bother to not follow through with a command that they knew. The praise is outweighed by the correction.

[Manchesters]

I am so sorry Manchester but whay you say has not an ounce of truth to it. They work harder to avoid the correction. They don't want to be corrected they want the praise. If they were motivated to work for the praise in the first place they would never bother to not follow through with a command that they knew. The praise is outweighed by the correction.

Every dog is going to have an off day. If a dog fails to respond to a command that YOU think they know, it is time to go back to the beginning with that command. OR, have the dog perform a command or two that it will do, and then end the session on a high note.

I cannot think of a time that any of my dogs did NOT perform a command they were given after they knew what was WANTED of them (not DEMANDED). We are NOT talking Manchesters here, roflmbo. I cannot always make them shut up. In those cases, I grab the water hose...they take one look, and shut up, lol. Of course I am talking when they are outside.

[Manchesters]

I am so sorry Manchester but whay you say has not an ounce of truth to it. They work harder to avoid the correction. They don't want to be corrected they want the praise. If they were motivated to work for the praise in the first place they would never bother to not follow through with a command that they knew. The praise is outweighed by the correction.

You mentioned looking forward to doing obedience trials? Find out if there are any clubs in your area that are holding a match anytime soon, and enter your dog. Matches are just for fun and experience for both owner and dog. Then you will see how well your dog is really trained. THEY AIN'T CALLED TRIALS FOR NUTTIN', rofl.

[Adrienne]

You mentioned looking forward to doing obedience trials? Find out if there are any clubs in your area that are holding a match anytime soon, and enter your dog. Matches are just for fun and experience for both owner and dog. Then you will see how well your dog is really trained. THEY AIN'T CALLED TRIALS FOR NUTTIN', rofl.


We actually did one when Gunnar was four months, before I had joined this forum actually. He placed second in the match, only thing he had trouble with was a down on a heel. Pretty good for a young pup competeting against a lot of older dogs.

I am looking foward to obediance class! Can't wait to wow all of them. If I could skip it and go to straight into the novice class I would, unfortuanately they won't let you do that up here, gotta start from the bottom of the ladder regardless of where your dog is at.

Around and around we go huh?! LOL! Where is your proof that correction training works better? I have my facts to back up my statements...not just how my dog has responed to the training, actual hard core facts. Where are yours? So far I have only seen you write that it has worked for your dogs and others that you have been around, that is not facts, it is your observations. Have you even taken the time to read all of the excellent links and info posted by Dobe and Bridey? Have you attempted to train a dog using these methods? I think not and how can you pass judgement on something without having all the facts or having your own experience with it? Until I see more proof I am gonna have to go with the facts that working with intelligent animals does not require corrections, only motivation.

[Manchesters]

We actually did one when Gunnar was four months, before I had joined this forum actually. He placed second in the match, only thing he had trouble with was a down on a heel. Pretty good for a young pup competeting against a lot of older dogs.

I am looking foward to obediance class! Can't wait to wow all of them. If I could skip it and go to straight into the novice class I would, unfortuanately they won't let you do that up here, gotta start from the bottom of the ladder regardless of where your dog is at.

Around and around we go huh?! LOL! Where is your proof that correction training works better? I have my facts to back up my statements...not just how my dog has responed to the training, actual hard core facts. Where are yours? So far I have only seen you write that it has worked for your dogs and others that you have been around, that is not facts, it is your observations. Have you even taken the time to read all of the excellent links and info posted by Dobe and Bridey? Have you attempted to train a dog using these methods? I think not and how can you pass judgement on something without having all the facts or having your own experience with it? Until I see more proof I am gonna have to go with the facts that working with intelligent animals does not require corrections, only motivation.

What I present is facts. What Old Dog presents is facts. Just where do you think facts originate??? From the hands on experiences of a number of people, especially when dealing with dogs. Ya can't use technology to determine facts as pertains to living things. You really can only rely on anectdotal information. The facts that I presented were a dog that out of 3 trials got a 186 (he forged on heeling--it was 30 degrees in an open parking structure, and he was freezing....so was I.) a 197 with a second place and Highest Scoring Dobe In Trial, and a 196 with a first place.

There was a gentleman who answered an ad of mine who had a part Lab part Border. He had a huge piece of property, and when he would turn the dogs loose on the back half, Smut would not come when called.

I took old Fartyblossom with me and went to the rescue. The first thing I told him was the equipment he should get (collar and 6 foot 1 inch wide nylon lead). I then put Max thru his paces which of course wowed the hubby and wife. I also gave them some references to check if they wished. And then I proceeded to show them some of Max's warped sense of humor. I told him that he was going to be amazed to discover that his dog had a distinct personality and would also begin to show a sense of humor.

When I went back the next week, his wife came over and started laughing and told me I was right about the humor. He came over and told me that Smut had NEVER gone into the big double dog house ever since he got it, but that now when he came out with the leash and collar, she would get into it all the way in the back and make him come in on all fours to get her, rofl.

Of course after a couple more weeks that changed, and she would come bounding over to him to get the leash and collar put on. She ended up coming when called like a trooper, and performing all the other commands happily, with a big grin on her face. Oh--and I only charged $5 a lesson even tho it was a 25 mile round trip.

The only bad time was when Fartblossom decided to go sniff the backend of their Welsh pony, rofl. Luckily he didn't get the stew kicked out of him. My fault for letting my attention and Max both wander, rofl.

If you want more facts, what can I say, rofl. There are books full of the facts, there are TV shows that show the facts. Watch any show of obedience training. But actually it is the results that count.

And one other little point---you use food with show dogs for conformation. You don't use it for obedience also. In conformation it is used to make the dog stand only. And to walk the dog into a stack when on the comeback. You would not want a conformation dog to get confused and sit on the comeback. That would be most embarrassing! Although it does sometimes happen just because the dog is being a frack!

And yes, I tried the other methods when I first got involved in training 50 years ago. You all act as though this is something new and wonderful. It isn't. I don't like it, I found it cumbersome. And I still cannot figure out what you are talking about with this correction business that is so dreadful that dogs quiver in fear at the thought of it, rofl. You don't have to correct--just give the dog a EEEHHH EEEHHH verbally. Sometimes dogs do lollygag around and their minds will wander. OF course the first thing that must be taught is WATCH ME! After that the rest is soooooooooo easy!

Oh, and quite a few of the others I have mentioned have dogs that are OTCHTDs etc. I was just never motivated to show in obedience. And of course, Max spoiled me rotten. He was so quick and bright. Show him something 3 times and he had it down pat.

He made it too easy for me!

[Manchesters]

We actually did one when Gunnar was four months, before I had joined this forum actually. He placed second in the match, only thing he had trouble with was a down on a heel. Pretty good for a young pup competeting against a lot of older dogs.

I am looking foward to obediance class! Can't wait to wow all of them. If I could skip it and go to straight into the novice class I would, unfortuanately they won't let you do that up here, gotta start from the bottom of the ladder regardless of where your dog is at.

Around and around we go huh?! LOL! Where is your proof that correction training works better? I have my facts to back up my statements...not just how my dog has responed to the training, actual hard core facts. Where are yours? So far I have only seen you write that it has worked for your dogs and others that you have been around, that is not facts, it is your observations. Have you even taken the time to read all of the excellent links and info posted by Dobe and Bridey? Have you attempted to train a dog using these methods? I think not and how can you pass judgement on something without having all the facts or having your own experience with it? Until I see more proof I am gonna have to go with the facts that working with intelligent animals does not require corrections, only motivation.

And for a fact maybe you can relate to.........YUKON!

[yuckaduck]

Manchester and Yuck, dogs trained with corrections do the behavior to avoid the correction right? That to me means that they have a "fear" or "avoidance" of the uncomfortable response they get when they don't get it right. I would rather my dog works for me becuause he wants to not because if he doesn't I will force him to do so.
Maybe Yuck is just to much dog for you, at five months you seem to be expecting an awful lot out of a pup that just doesn't seem to be getting it whichever way you are training. You yourself admit that you still have a few wrinkle to iron out of his behavior. Trying positive training for three months and still having issues with your pup doesn't mean that he couldn't be trained with reinforcment, you just aren't willing to clock in the hours or you aren't doing it right. Fine for you, use correction methods and I am sure eventually Yuck will give up on fighting you to avoid getting corrected. That's how it works with that kind of training. It has to be uncomfortable enough for him to want to avoid the correction. Personally I would rather motivate my dog to do what I ask of him. Especially a five month old pup. So don't bother to say that it doesn't work, especially for a young pup like that. Katya comes from Russian Military lines....she was trained using correction methods by my mom. Now at six years of age we have started on positive reinforcment and she no longer barks constantly, she comes immediately when called and performs all commands immediately only because she wants to. In the past she was quite a handful for my mom and now mom can't believe what an excellent girl she has turned into, so much better behaved. To each their own once again, but like Dobe said it isn't a matter of opinion, it is fact that positive reinforcement training is much quicker for the dog to learn. There is no fear or avoidance in training, it is for the pure joy of doing a job well done and getting praised for it.
6 years old and she now no longer does those behaviours, OMG, are you crazy to expect me to allow this dog to bite and draw blood for another 5 1/2 years before your stupidity may or may not work. At 6 years it is way to late for police training and this pup will be active on the street by age 2. That is the normal requirement for Canadian policing dogs. Positive reinforcement works for some dogs and some animals, not all and if you are misleading people by saying it always works then you are not a very good person to give advice. I don't believe that Yuck is too much dog for me and you have some nerve saying such an aweful thing. He has a few little things to learn like meeting other dogs in public. He will learn and that does not make him to much dog for me. I just let a twit milead me by suggesting that positive reinforcement is the only way to train. BULL. This dog has no fear of me, none and for you to continue to say so just takes all of your credibility and flushes it. You obviously have no point to make so you need to resort to hurtful nonsense and lying. Please stop this beaviour. If you need to wait 6 years to have a good dog so be it. Your dog does not have the wiring that my dog has and your dog does not have the future that my dog will have.

[Adrienne]

6 years old and she now no longer does those behaviours, OMG, are you crazy to expect me to allow this dog to bite and draw blood for another 5 1/2 years before your stupidity may or may not work. At 6 years it is way to late for police training and this pup will be active on the street by age 2. That is the normal requirement for Canadian policing dogs. Positive reinforcement works for some dogs and some animals, not all and if you are misleading people by saying it always works then you are not a very good person to give advice. I don't believe that Yuck is too much dog for me and you have some nerve saying such an aweful thing. He has a few little things to learn like meeting other dogs in public. He will learn and that does not make him to much dog for me. I just let a twit milead me by suggesting that positive reinforcement is the only way to train. BULL. This dog has no fear of me, none and for you to continue to say so just takes all of your credibility and flushes it. You obviously have no point to make so you need to resort to hurtful nonsense and lying. Please stop this beaviour. If you need to wait 6 years to have a good dog so be it. Your dog does not have the wiring that my dog has and your dog does not have the future that my dog will have.

LOL! The maturity level in the room has just dropped drastically! Enjoy your dog and your training. Persoanly I don't need to use personal attacks on people to get my point across like you do! LOL!

[yuckaduck]

LOL! The maturity level in the room has just dropped drastically! Enjoy your dog and your training. Persoanly I don't need to use personal attacks on people to get my point across like you do! LOL!
Obviously you do because look at what you said to me. Some nerve lady. We know who is mature and who is not; but everyone has their breaking point to others stupidity. Proof has been provided over and over but you just ignored it and blasted your stuff. If you feel that waiting 6 years is acceptable than wonderful for you. I would like to see some improvement abit sooner.

[Adrienne]

I said, "maybe Yuck is to much dog for you" that is my opinion and not a personal attack. Proof has NOT been provided, just heresay, if you call that proof fine by me. I also never said that Katya was a horrible dog before we started training this way. She wasn't but she barked like crazy all of the time, not something that bothered my mom living out in the country but when she came here that had to stop. She listened as well but more on her own time. She didn't draw blood from people or anything as severe as that until my mom got ill and if you knew this breed you would understand why she felt the need to step up her protection of my mom. I will digress, you are to set in your ways to listen to anything logical at this point. Good luck with Yuck, I honestly hope all goes well for you and him.

[yuckaduck]

I said, "maybe Yuck is to much dog for you" that is my opinion and not a personal attack. Proof has NOT been provided, just heresay, if you call that proof fine by me. I also never said that Katya was a horrible dog before we started training this way. She wasn't but she barked like crazy all of the time, not something that bothered my mom living out in the country but when she came here that had to stop. She listened as well but more on her own time. She didn't draw blood from people or anything as severe as that until my mom got ill and if you knew this breed you would understand why she felt the need to step up her protection of my mom. I will digress, you are to set in your ways to listen to anything logical at this point. Good luck with Yuck, I honestly hope all goes well for you and him.
Obviously i am not too set in my own way since I just recently gave up on one method to try another. I guess it is best to agree to disagree at this point.

[poeluvr]

, OMG, are you crazy to expect me to allow this dog to bite and draw blood for another 5 1/2 years before your stupidity may or may not work.
yuckaduck that was kinda mean, adrienne's trying to help

[Adrienne]

Thanks Lea, I guess that she will go her own way and we will all just have to hope and pray that Yuck becomes the dog she wants him to be.

[yuckaduck]

yuckaduck that was kinda mean, adrienne's trying to help
How is she trying to help? Telling someone that their dog is too much for them is really polite too. I told her that what I tried did not work and so I changed methods. I can't see why she can't just respect my way as much as she respects her. By continuelly saying positive reinforcement is the only way to train that produces happy well bonded dogs is a lie. Perhaps you should read all the posts before you post against others.

[poeluvr]

How is she trying to help? Telling someone that their dog is too much for them is really polite too. I told her that what I tried did not work and so I changed methods. I can't see why she can't just respect my way as much as she respects her. By continuelly saying positive reinforcement is the only way to train that produces happy well bonded dogs is a lie. Perhaps you should read all the posts before you post against others.
ecuse me, but i did, or i wouldnt have got it...y r u so angry?
shes obviously disagreeing wit h u but doesnt mean to call her stupid....i read every single post ...if i didnt i would probably be on ur side...

[Adrienne]

How is she trying to help? Telling someone that their dog is too much for them is really polite too. I told her that what I tried did not work and so I changed methods. I can't see why she can't just respect my way as much as she respects her. By continuelly saying positive reinforcement is the only way to train that produces happy well bonded dogs is a lie. Perhaps you should read all the posts before you post against others.

Calm down hun, not everyone is out to get you as you seem to think I am, LOL! I could care less how you train your dog but, saying that "my" way doesn't work is nonsense, especially if you only tried it for a few months time. Either you were not doing it right or you weren't putting in enough hours of training. I can respect results, which you don't seem to be getting at this point as you have admitted in your posts. I also did not TELL YOU that your dog was too much for you, just suggested that maybe he was to much for you to handle right now, especially if he is drawing blood on your children and hubby. I can guarentee that Gunnar is much better bonded to me than any of my past dogs that were trained the "other" way. He has consistency, praise, and pride at a job well done.

[yuckaduck]

ecuse me, but i did, or i wouldnt have got it...y r u so angry?
shes obviously disagreeing wit h u but doesnt mean to call her stupid....i read every single post ...if i didnt i would probably be on ur side...
Maybe you should stay out of this one because you obviously don't get it. Perhaps it is because by taking my side you would be taking Manchesters side. Man could not do that could we???

[poeluvr]

Maybe you should stay out of this one because you obviously don't get it. Perhaps it is because by taking my side you would be taking Manchesters side. Man could not do that coulkd we???
what!!!if u post on a public forum ppl are gonna respond back ...thats how it goes. ur only saying i dont get it cuz im disagreeing with ya.

[yuckaduck]

what!!!if u post on a public forum ppl are gonna respond back ...thats how it goes. ur only saying i dont get it cuz im disagreeing with ya.
No I really don't care because I know what works and does not work with my dog.

[poeluvr]

No I really don't care because I know what works and does not work with my dog.
then if u dont car e u shouldnt care what i say,, i remember twice yesterday u said i was rude (twice) even though it wasnt me writing the posts and u werent involved. so why cant i say when i think ur being mean ?

[Adrienne]

then if u dont car e u shouldnt care what i say,, i remember twice yesterday u said i was rude (twice) even though it wasnt me writing the posts and u werent involved. so why cant i say when i think ur being mean ?

Don't take it personaly Lea, just laugh and smile! :D Yuck is on the defense right now, defending what she says is working for her dog (although in other posts including this one it doesn't seem to be working all that well). You do have a great point though. If you post on a dog forum you are going to get different advice from different people. Take what you want and leave the rest, that's my motto. The only reason I continue on is because I don't want other dog owners getting the wrong impression on how to train their dog, especially if it is not a problem animal! If Yuck was confident in her techniques she wouldn't need to get upset at us for offering our own opinions on the matter.

[yuckaduck]

Calm down hun, not everyone is out to get you as you seem to think I am, LOL! I could care less how you train your dog but, saying that "my" way doesn't work is nonsense, especially if you only tried it for a few months time. Either you were not doing it right or you weren't putting in enough hours of training. I can respect results, which you don't seem to be getting at this point as you have admitted in your posts. I also did not TELL YOU that your dog was too much for you, just suggested that maybe he was to much for you to handle right now, especially if he is drawing blood on your children and hubby. I can guarentee that Gunnar is much better bonded to me than any of my past dogs that were trained the "other" way. He has consistency, praise, and pride at a job well done.
I take personal offence to anyone suggests that my dog is to much for me. Obviously you choose to ignore the facts, Yuck is much better, no bitting, no jumping, knows and does his commands. He even has gotten much better with people, now he learns to keep his mind upon me not the other dogs. I bet with a simple leash corrections Yuck will be a good dog.

[Adrienne]

:D I take personal offence to anyone suggests that my dog is to much for me. Obviously you choose to ignore the facts, Yuck is much better, no bitting, no jumping, knows and does his commands. He even has gotten much better with people, now he learns to keep his mind upon me not the other dogs. I bet with a simple leash corrections Yuck will be a good dog.

"At noon I took him for a small walk and proceeded to battle way to many times. I need advice on how to meet people? He jumps and bites [mouthy grabbing] and will not listen period. The commands that he does perfectly on his own have flowen out the window completely. Also same thing when meeting another dog or encountering one tied in a yard. He starts jumping towards it and barking and being a plain ass. Known commands are out the window. Even something as simple as a bird or a leaf grabs his mind. I know this is normal for puppies but me fighting with him can't be good because I look like a **** fool. How do I train him; how to behave appropriately in these situations?
He knows heel, sit, down, stay, come, by me until you get him out in the big old world then he is brain dead. Thanks in advance because I know I will get great suggestions from a few of you."

A bit of a contradiction me thinks!

[yuckaduck]

then if u dont car e u shouldnt care what i say,, i remember twice yesterday u said i was rude (twice) even though it wasnt me writing the posts and u werent involved. so why cant i say when i think ur being mean ?
Whatever you wish child, I just think you should have read all the posts and if you did then you misread. Anyway believe whatever you chose. If I am so mean than so be it. Each to there own.

[poeluvr]

hes drawing blood on ur child?
thats fixed right, i read the last post and know u said evrythings bettr which is good.
this happens to me lots yuckaduck,, people say thing s to me and i take personal offense as welll, sometimes it is hard being on the forum, i know how u feel:) i wasnt trying to be mean just stating what i think to be "the truth"

[poeluvr]

Whatever you wish child, I just think you should have read all the posts and if you did then you misread. Anyway believe whatever you chose. If I am so mean than so be it. Each to there own.
thats enough, i am a young member yes , i am soooo sorry i stuck up for adrienne when u called her dumb..im sorry but u seem to be the immature one. im not really a child in canda im considered a TEENAGER

[yuckaduck]

Don't take it personaly Lea, just laugh and smile! :D Yuck is on the defense right now, defending what she says is working for her dog (although in other posts including this one it doesn't seem to be working all that well). You do have a great point though. If you post on a dog forum you are going to get different advice from different people. Take what you want and leave the rest, that's my motto. The only reason I continue on is because I don't want other dog owners getting the wrong impression on how to train their dog, especially if it is not a problem animal! If Yuck was confident in her techniques she wouldn't need to get upset at us for offering our own opinions on the matter.
I am very confident in what I see as proof of working. Yuck is ten times better. A dog that refused to do any commands now does them all. Of course this method works and very well. I can't say that for your way. Your positive reinforcement may work for others and work well, I never said it didn't. I said it did not work for me. If I need to devote more time then to me that is not the most efficient way and I have already wasted enough time. I am happy with the progress of my dog who went from the holy terror to a fairly good dog. Sure he needs to learn abit more, and sure he has a few issues that need abit more work but that does not mean all the other progress can be shoved away. Why would you say my training is not working when obviously it has worked miracles. His only issue now is other dogs and he will learn quickly about that too. You grab stuff out the air that is false in order to prove your point. That is what is so upsetting, the lying. I think the one who lacks confidence in her methods is you and to enlist the help of a youngster to attack me is so tasteless. All credibility you had with me is gone and from now on I will ignore your advice because you just aren't honest about the facts. Maybe it bothers you to see another way can work. Your way is not the only way and neither is mine.

[yuckaduck]

thats enough, i am a young member yes , i am soooo sorry i stuck up for adrienne when u called her dumb..im sorry but u seem to be the immature one. im not really a child in canda im considered a TEENAGER
It was just not wise to step into something that you know nothing about. If you feel I was mean so be it. If you are offended by being called a child so be it. It is not meant to offend either because a teenager is a child in my eyes. It also does not mean that your opinions are unimportant because usually you say good things that to contribute to conversations. This time however you are making things worse and are causing hard feelings against you. I had respect for you but it is quickly deminissing.

[Adrienne]

I have this little monster doing extremely well in the field alone. At noon I took him for a small walk and proceeded to battle way to many times. I need advice on how to meet people? He jumps and bites [mouthy grabbing] and will not listen period. The commands that he does perfectly on his own have flowen out the window completely. Also same thing when meeting another dog or encountering one tied in a yard. He starts jumping towards it and barking and being a plain ass. Known commands are out the window. Even something as simple as a bird or a leaf grabs his mind. I know this is normal for puppies but me fighting with him can't be good because I look like a **** fool. How do I train him; how to behave appropriately in these situations?
He knows heel, sit, down, stay, come, by me until you get him out in the big old world then he is brain dead. Thanks in advance because I know I will get great suggestions from a few of you.

Once again then what the heck is this post about? If it is going well then why is your dog still not listening to you? Still jumping and biting at new people and other dogs? How am I lying? Also I did not "enlist" anyones help, I am not defrauding you and am certainly not pulling things out of the air. Seems that you are. Oh well, whatever floats your boat.

[yuckaduck]

:D

"At noon I took him for a small walk and proceeded to battle way to many times. I need advice on how to meet people? He jumps and bites [mouthy grabbing] and will not listen period. The commands that he does perfectly on his own have flowen out the window completely. Also same thing when meeting another dog or encountering one tied in a yard. He starts jumping towards it and barking and being a plain ass. Known commands are out the window. Even something as simple as a bird or a leaf grabs his mind. I know this is normal for puppies but me fighting with him can't be good because I look like a **** fool. How do I train him; how to behave appropriately in these situations?
He knows heel, sit, down, stay, come, by me until you get him out in the big old world then he is brain dead. Thanks in advance because I know I will get great suggestions from a few of you."

A bit of a contradiction me thinks!
Did you happen to read the post given by Manchesters. I did that and guess what as you will read later on in the thread he is fine with other people now. He looks but does not break the heel. See improvement! If you are so desperate to grab something from the very beginning to prove your point then you have no point. Read the rest! He has yet to meet another dog so I can not say how well it works in that situation but a simple leash corection and a command worked miracles with other people. This is why you create problems you don't acknowledge the improvements. Who is grasping at straws now?

[poeluvr]

It was just not wise to step into something that you know nothing about. If you feel I was mean so be it. If you are offended by being called a child so be it. It is not meant to offend either because a teenager is a child in my eyes. It also does not mean that your opinions are unimportant because usually you say good things that to contribute to conversations. This time however you are making things worse and are causing hard feelings against you. I had respect for you but it is quickly deminissing.
i do not like getting in the middle, but hy r u saying i dont know anything about this subject what have i said to make u think so? i am sorry for my intrusion and sorry f u feel it is 2 against 1, maybe adrienne could have worded it better that yuukon might be too much for u, but she was not saying it i do not beleive to hurt you.
i am sorry u are feeling lose of respect for me, but i am just voicing myself. just like you telling me im bein rude after already 5 people said so.. i might add did not help the situation either.i do understand and know how it feels to be ganged upon, so i will bud out. capeiche
last post promise( unless u say something mean against me)

[Adrienne]

Did you happen to read the post given by Manchesters. I did that and guess what as you will read later on in the thread he is fine with other people now. He looks but does not break the heel. See improvement! If you are so desperate to grab something from the very beginning to prove your point then you have no point. Read the rest! He has yet to meet another dog so I can not say how well it works in that situation but a simple leash corection and a command worked miracles with other people. This is why you create problems you don't acknowledge the improvements. Who is grasping at straws now?

You are just too funny! You don't fix a problem in one or two sessions, regardless of the way you train which I am sure Manchester will attest to. I have no problem with the way you train your dog, just letting others know there are other ways to train that are 99% of the time more effective, proven fact. Anyways, I am done now, you have attempted to drag me through the mud enough. People will gleen what they wish from this thread. I am just glad that it didn't stoop to the level you were trying to bring it to.

[yuckaduck]

Once again then what the heck is this post about? If it is going well then why is your dog still not listening to you? Still jumping and biting at new people and other dogs? How am I lying? Also I did not "enlist" anyones help, I am not defrauding you and am certainly not pulling things out of the air. Seems that you are. Oh well, whatever floats your boat.
READ THE REST OF THE POSTS. Like I said problem solved with the people and gu