Need Trainers Thoughts/Suggestions

[YorkieLover]

Alright, I have been reading the 300 and some posts in regards to positive reinforcement and understand that not everyone has success doing the same things. Here is my situation and I really would like your thoughts or experiences... We got Cocoa Anne @ 9 weeks (yorkie), we had her for 4 months and adopted Houdini & Myles (both around 7 years old and yorkies), well Cocoa and Houdini never got along her and Myles grew to play together. After a few months Cocoa started what we believe to be resource guarding and would go after Houdini... Everyone told us to let it go and let them settle it. Well that is what we had been doing, well in the last couple months it has gotten to the point of not just guarding us (when Houdini would sit on our laps) but she would guard the front door so he couldn't come in from going potty, she would guard the family room so he couldn't come in and be with us. The attacks happened more and more and were getting nastier and nastier to where Houdini wouldn't fight back anymore and would get slightly injured. We tried watching over them like a hawk to stop any attack before it would happen, well sometimes we just weren't quick enough and in the middle of grabbing Cocoa would get scratched and bitten. In contacting two behaviorists we were advised to buy either a prong collar or shock collar. We opted for the shock collar. Now this option is working well so far with us only having to shock her a few times in 2 weeks. The attacks have gone from 3 to 4 times a day to maybe once every other day, if that. Now this method seems to be working in this situation but I would be very curious to see what some of the other trainers on here suggest. I have already rec'd an email from Creature Teacher on her thoughts and would love to hear yours.

[bridey_01]

Hmm. This is one that actually does sound like an aggression case. I need to know more, she is guarding you, her food, doorways and such from your second dog? Has she ever drawn blood in one of their arguments? Does she know any commands that could negate this behaviour? Have you tried to "help" them get along (its an in depth process I use to get dogs to "like" each other) using positive reinforcement?
The shock collar will stop her attacking the other dogs. It will also significantly up her stress level and will probably manifest itself in other inapproriate behaviours.

[bridey_01]

What did creature teacher suggest?

[YorkieLover]

She did actually draw blood and that is why I contacted the behaviorist. These 2 have never gotten along (well except when we introduced them on neutral territory for a couple hours and I think in 5 1/2 months Houdini has actually put his paws on Cocoa's face and licked her (even after she kicked his as*), you know the typical smelling of each other. Houdini, is an old fart and doesn't like to be bothered and Cocoa being the puppy would want to play, well Houdini snapped at her a few times in the beginning which of course we handled. All we would have to do is give him a "stop" command and "go lay down" and for a dog that was never trained and lived his entire life in a crate with no human touch actually did what he was told. I truley believed it was jealousy (but then was told it was resource guarding) when Cocoa started going after him when he would either sit by us or on our laps. I had one fight occur while he was on my lap, the majority of it was mouthing but it sure scared the sh** out of me. Well of course we talked to people about that and they all said they are fighting for alpha and to stay out of it and let them handle it amongst each other. That obviously didn't work because Cocoa figured out she could bully the crap out of Houdini and even when he would give up when fighting she would keep going. She has never been aggressive with food or water or toys, only us, the front door (him going in or out) and now the family room, she could care a less about Myles if he is on our laps, goes out potty first etc... Creature Teacher basically told me to find another behaviourist.

[bridey_01]

If she isn't aggressive with food or toys I wouldn't diagnose this as resource guarding. Some say dogs don't feel jelousy. I am inclined to disagree:) Maybe they just enjoy the attention so much they become defensive when someone else is getting any.
Does she immediatly attack him if he approaches you/ the door/ the family room?
I am trying to get a handle on why the (front?) door and the family room are such an issue to her.

[bridey_01]

Does houdini get significantly more attention than Myles or Cocoa?

[YorkieLover]

I have never tried to "help" them get along, I wouldn't even know where to begin. They crack me up though when they walk past each other, it is like 2 teenagers in the hallway at school that can't stand each other... LOL The only commands we have taught Cocoa was sit which she does pretty well but when she gets that look there was no stopping her other then to grab hold of her.

[YorkieLover]

I wouldn't say Houdini gets more attention, he just likes to lay on our laps where Myles is happy to walk across you and lay somewhere else. Cocoa has alot more energy then the rest of them and only wants alot of attention when you come home or when she's tired and wants to lay down. She honestly in my opinion has been treated like the "queen bee" by everyone....

[stirder]

sounds to me like shes more teaching a younger dog its place and taking too far but I couldnt say for sure without seeing. female female aggression in my experience can be worse than male aggression. she probably began just letting the younger pup know it was her house and her rules, and at somepoint the aggression escalated.
I think a shock collar would be a bad way to go, as bridey said you would really increase her stress levels, and shock collars are so easy to use incorrectly.

[bridey_01]

"Helping" them get along is a technique I formulated myself when I first started training. It's quite in depth and requires extremely good judgement. First, lets think about what Cocoa wants. The way she guards you I would assume she wants attention. Also, if you run and grab her everytime she alerts to Houdini (or attacks him) you are giving her attention. Of course, you can't just ignore it if they are drawing blood!
One method of "helping" dogs to get along is making every great thing that happens in their lives happen around each other. I.e when Cocoa is being nice and ignoring Houdini she get patted, cuddled and generally the utmost attention. Also, food is a really massive part of a dogs life. Feed Houdini and Cocoa WITHIN SIGHT OF EACH OTHER. This does not mean putting two bowls together. Find your biggest room and place each bowl at opposite ends. You may also like to carry some treats around on you to give to Cocoa when she is being civil around Houdini.

[YorkieLover]

As far as the front door, we have 3 leads that come in our front door for them to go outside to potty... We use to be able to hook all 3 up at once and open the door and let them all 3 out.. Well for some reason she got a wild hair up her a** and would attack Houdini no matter if he was on my right side (to be 1st out the door) or left side (which would be last out the door).... She could be in another room of the house and hear the front door open (when I would let Houdini out on his own) and come running to the door in attack mode.... When they would come inside after being done, they used to all be able to come in together, I would unhook them all three and off they would go, well she eventually started to get him in this situation as well. Then I would try to let her off 1st but that didn't help because she would turn around and go after Houdini and of course I'm in the middle. So then I decided to let Houdini off first so he could get away from the door and then let her off (that works)... It is all insane. As far as the family room, she will lay between the end of our couch and the patio door (which is the walkway into our family room) and intimidate him out of coming into the room... He would just lay on the kitchen floor instead of walking past her. If he does come into the room and he sees her on the couch chewing on a toy he will jump up into the recliner versus getting up on the couch where she is.

[YorkieLover]

Stridey, Cocoa is the puppy, Houdini is the old fart. Alot of people said when she would want to play with him or be rowdy to let Houdini go with his snapping he was just teaching her puppy manners and to be respectful to the old guy. Well we tried that and I think once Cocoa got older decided she was tired of being snapped at and she was going to take control (I don't know, who knows what the little **** ant is thinking).

[bridey_01]

This definetly sounds like an attention thing. She seems to HATE the idea of Houdini being around you! It's up to you to prove to her that life with Houdini can be pleasant and rewarding, because right now it sounds as if she is at war!
I would try putting her on a leash and tieing her to something (note, she must be hungry for this excercies). Get out houdini and start playing with him, giving him treats and generally telling him what a great boy he is. I expect she would go beserk at the end of her leash. That's ok, continue what you are doing. Eventually she will have to give up, and either sit or lie down. As soon as she displays any calm behaviours give praise he enthusiastically and dump a pile of treat at her feet. Continue to lavish affection on her, with Houdini in the room. As soon as she alerts to him or so much as growls at him, switch back to playing and treating him.

[YorkieLover]

Bridey - when I started with the shock collar I also decided that if she would follow our command of "stop" before we had to shock we would reward her. I most definitely believe that is helping us not to have to use the shock collar. We all keep a watch on her and if she gets that look we say her name "in a fun, exciting way" and for the most part she'll come to us since we have the treats, and then we praise her for coming... I honestly think before we got the shock collar when we would "yell" "stop" it made her more aggressive, there was no stopping her, it was like "don't tell me to stop, I'm biting his a**!!! If you tried to ignore it that didn't help either.

[bridey_01]

Yes, the yelling would most definetly up the situation (dog percieve it as you joining in on the fight!)
If you are having such success with the shock collar, why did you ask for further advice (just curious)

[YorkieLover]

Bridey, that sounds like a good idea. I know she can't stand it if either Myles or Houdini gets our attention when we come home from work.. She has to be 1st to us and 1st to get our attention. I just come home now, walk in the door say "hey" and go on... I don't bend down and pet any of them for the first 15 minutes until they all calm down. Cocoa is very attention demanding with all 4 of us and I believe since she was our first pet ever she got soooo much attention in the beginning and didn't care to much for sharing that attention with the boys, well more Houdini then Myles he is happy to be on his own although he is starting more and more to be close to us and I've noticed more and more Cocoa getting more aggressive with him, although Myles kicks her butt and she backs off from him)...

[YorkieLover]

Well, although we are having success with the shock collar I really do hate to see her wear it and if there is another way to break this cycle I would prefer that. I didn't like the idea of attaching a leash to her with a prong collar and that was the other suggestion. I really like your idea listed above and I think we will give that a try, maybe we can get rid of the shock collar...

[bridey_01]

Its a very good idea not to immediatly greet her when you come in the door. You should also try to only give her attention when YOU initiate it, or as a reward for calm behaviours. If you pat and cuddle her whenever she bugs you for it she will only get pushier (would be hard though with a cute little yorkie:))

[bridey_01]

Be aware though that such methods take a while to "sink in". You will eventually be able to do it without a leash, once Cocoa has realised that calm behaviours around Houdini get a whole load of fun and attention, whereas trying to attack Houdini only makes you play with him more! That would really get on her goat.

[YorkieLover]

The thing with Houdini is that he doesn't play with us or toys, all he likes to do is be petted on, fed, go potty and lay around. But I think if we just show him lots of love it will drive her crazy and this process may work. We have also started the NILIF with Cocoa where we make her sit for everything, her food, treats, going outside, being picked up, etc. This is helping her to also learn we are in control not her.

[Doberluv]

Are you working on obedience and the program, nothing in life is free? I would up your position of leader and let both dogs know that neither one of them gets to make the rules or decide anything between themselves. They are not in a position to do this if you are a very clear family head. (alpha) If one wants to compare this to a wolf pack, an alpha will step inbetween squabbling middle ranking wolves to prevent or break up a fight. They will not allow it. They do not do anything more than that. I would suggest preventing any argument...don't even let it get started, by physically moving them away from eachother at the first signs and giving a firm verbal command, such as "leave it." (which they should be taught anyhow for many useful applications) Then reward lavishly for their compliance. I would tend to keep them seperated in particularily high stress situations, such as feeding time, when high value toys are in the area, when you're cuddling one.

Not all dogs like all dogs and when it is this extreme, I don't think you're going to be able to change that fact. It's been 4 months and usually by this time, a new comer would have been accepted into the group if it were to be accepted at all. I'm pretty sure about that....could be wrong. I'm guessing you'll have to keep them seperated rather than expect them to get along safely. It's one of those things. I hope I'm wrong about this.

I also agree about the shock collar. It will stop the behavior quite possibly for the most part, at least when the collar is on, but it will also associate the other dog with even more of a rotten situation (shock) and make the one "hate" the other even more. Then down the road sometime, it could happen that the dog does not control it's behavior and snaps. I don't think it's reliable because you're still not dealing with whatever the underlying issue is that the dog has with the other dog. It's still there boiling under the surface.

[Manchesters]

I have 11 Manchester Terrors here in the front part of the trailer with me, and they all get along. I can't even begin to think of any useful suggestions---to tired........too much time in the forums today, rofl.

Over the years, I had a few Manchesters that I got from Mary Creamer. Her dogs had no manners and would try to kill each other over the food bowl--my dogs all ate out of the same bowl, pictured in some of the pics on my website...13 quart stainless steel.

I got my dogs' grandma Piper to give her a good home in her old age. First time she was at the bowl and another dog came over she jumped the sh!t out of it. I grabbed the fly swatter, and fly flapped the Hades out of her. Didn't hurt her, just stung heck out of her butt. I yelled NO BITE also. Result......Piper ate nicely at the bowl with all the other dogs. She would do some grumbling, but not snap.

Same thing happened when I got Jiggs...Mary's champion stud....and dad of Shark and Robin, etc. He was a real character.....when I would take the dogs out on my bigger lot, he would hide under my chair, and jump out at the dogs as they came running back toward me. I finally managed to get that out of his system.

Sometimes you just HAVE to be top dog, and paddle their little butts.

Once upon a time, Jim Mckay asked James Clarke (Top handler and top AKC judge) how come his dogs all got along without fighting. Jim Clark replied....."they get along because I EXPECT them to get along. We dog people knew exactly what he was saying, rofl. They got along because if one of them started a fight, Jim would finish it!!!!

A fly flap is better, in my viewpoint than a shock collar!

[YorkieLover]

As of this morning we don't even carry the remote to the shock collar with us at all times. It has only been used on her maybe 5 times in 2 weeks which is great considering the # of fights that could've potentially happened (if we hadn't intervened) 4 or 5 times a day. Actual fights were occuring possibly once a day. And as of today there has only been 1 in a week and that was because Houdini snapped at the new pup and Cocoa didn't like it.. Also, Cocoa is actually running to us now when she gets that look and we say her name (nicely) and when she does we give her a treat and tell her "good job, good come" Things have improved over the last 2 weeks and I only expect them to get better as we implement some of the ideas given on this forum. They actually laid on the couch together the other night and were only maybe a foot apart (that was amazing)...