questions about Yukon?

[yuckaduck]

Ok Manchesters here's the questions that you asked for to restart giving advice [of course we have gone through this privately but it is the only questions I have]
When Yukon gets near my husband Marc, he thinks that Marc is a litter mate, a play toy and he is relentless with him. Another words he bites him, he jumps on him, he barks at him, he treats him just like another puppy. What I do to stop this behaviour has no affects with Marc and Yukon, the monster just come right back for more. Eventually Marc gets fed up and either crates him, or muzzles him.
He has tried bitting him back, rolling him on his back and pinning him, the shake can, the spray bottle, grabbing the scruff of his neck and giving a good shake, grabbing the jowels and giving a good shake. Changes nothing the little monster jumps up and fights again. For the jumping the ignoring him is not an option because he just knocks you to the ground and bites and humps you. I have tried the grab the front paws and it works great for me, not for Marc, the second he releases him, it is fight time again.
The only thing that gets Yukon to stop is either crating or muzzling. He can't wear a muzzle all day and he can't be crated all day so we need another solution. How does Marc gain control and become master, leader rather than litter mate.

[bridey_01]

Yukon must have a very bad association with Marc! I wonder if that is what is causing the "disrespect"!

[Manchesters]

Ok Manchesters here's the questions that you asked for to restart giving advice [of course we have gone through this privately but it is the only questions I have]
When Yukon gets near my husband Marc, he thinks that Marc is a litter mate, a play toy and he is relentless with him. Another words he bites him, he jumps on him, he barks at him, he treats him just like another puppy. What I do to stop this behaviour has no affects with Marc and Yukon, the monster just come right back for more. Eventually Marc gets fed up and either crates him, or muzzles him.
He has tried bitting him back, rolling him on his back and pinning him, the shake can, the spray bottle, grabbing the scruff of his neck and giving a good shake, grabbing the jowels and giving a good shake. Changes nothing the little monster jumps up and fights again. For the jumping the ignoring him is not an option because he just knocks you to the ground and bites and humps you. I have tried the grab the front paws and it works great for me, not for Marc, the second he releases him, it is fight time again.
The only thing that gets Yukon to stop is either crating or muzzling. He can't wear a muzzle all day and he can't be crated all day so we need another solution. How does Marc gain control and become master, leader rather than litter mate.

This is fairly simple---Marc will have to start with Yukon from scratch. He needs to be the one who feeds Yukon, and make Yukon sit or down or any command before giving the food. Marc must work the puppy on leash, all the commands etc.

And if Yukon decides the get mouthy, I think that if Marc will keep a squirt bottle handy it will help. A good squirt in the face stops a multitude of sins. Also the shake can use with a good strongly growled NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If a bratty dog is trying to be mouthy you have to keep your hands away from him so he doesn't think you are playing. He is too old for the chin and head bobble. About 4 months and 2 weeks too old, rofl.

Do not be discouraged. You have an intelligent dog that is going to try your patience every way he can. If he were a Cocker Spaniel you wouldn't have this problem. (unless you had the misfortune to end up with a Cocker with rage syndrom).

It is going to take time, but considering you will have a good dog, and a pleasant enjoyable family member, it is worth the effort.

[bridey_01]

Oh goodness here we go again. Shake cans, spray bottles, scruff shakes. Sure hope I'm not the one called out to deal with the probable adult aggression.

[Fran27]

For what it's worth, I feel that Yuck thinks that your husband is his playing partner. I think all Marc has to do is show him that he doesn't want to play. Everything he's been doing can very well seem like playing for the dog. If he just ignores him, the dog will understand he doesn't want to play, and should stop his behavior after a while.

Boris is just the same with my husband, except he's stupid enough (the husband) to romp with him and play on the floor etc. So yeah, it's not going to stop...

[Doberluv]

This, I agree with:

He needs to be the one who feeds Yukon, and make Yukon sit or down or any command before giving the food. Marc must work the puppy on leash, all the commands etc.

Shake cans, spray bottles, scruff shakes. Sure hope I'm not the one called out to deal with the probable adult aggression.

Yup...this is one way to mold a perfectly good dog into an aggressive one. When you put a dog on the defensive, his options of fight or flight just became more clear to him. If he can't take flight, what's left? You can't erase instincts.

Also, if your husband is inadvertantly, at times, giving a payoff (attention) the dog's behavior is only being reinforced.


Your husband and you, both need to show the dog that you are his family leader....."Mom and Dad," right? That is the relationship we need with our dogs. We make rules and they follow them...cheerfully, willingly, promptly and they get the privilege of surviving. (food, treats, toys, companionship, the feeling of having a group to live with, and any other privilege they enjoy) You both can practice these things: It is a humane way of teaching the dog who's in charge. It's a natural way that is condusive to their natural way of existing in the wild. No work? No live.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/nothingfree.htm

[Doberluv]

I agree Fran. It can be that....that he thinks Marc is a playmate. And that's fine. We're all playmates to our dogs. But at the same time, the dog needs to see Marc as his guide or Dad. Marc needs to be the only one who instigates playtime for the time being until the dog gets the picture. ONLY when Marc says, "let's play" should playing occur. If the dog comes to him to play, then he needs to go through a command or two first to earn it. When Marc is tired of playing, the dog needs to chill and chew a bone or something. My Doberman was quite pushy about playing too when he was younger. If I didn't want to play, I'd just keep staring at the book I was reading while sitting on the couch. After a few nose shoves at me and licks and pawing, he'd go find something more interesting to do....chew his Kong or whatever. I was simply no fun at all...there wasn't even a reaction of ANY kind...not even eye contact. Nothing. He comes to me for a pat now and I go ahead and give it to him if he asks. I don't have to be all rigid anymore. He gets the picture that if I don't want something, it a'in't happenin!

[Manchesters]

This, I agree with:





Yup...this is one way to mold a perfectly good dog into an aggressive one. When you put a dog on the defensive, his options of fight or flight just became more clear to him. If he can't take flight, what's left? You can't erase instincts.

Also, if your husband is inadvertantly, at times, giving a payoff (attention) the dog's behavior is only being reinforced.


Your husband and you, both need to show the dog that you are his family leader....."Mom and Dad," right? That is the relationship we need with our dogs. We make rules and they follow them...cheerfully, willingly, promptly and they get the privilege of surviving. (food, treats, toys, companionship, the feeling of having a group to live with, and any other privilege they enjoy) You both can practice these things: It is a humane way of teaching the dog who's in charge. It's a natural way that is condusive to their natural way of existing in the wild. No work? No live.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/nothingfree.htm

DID YOU READ THIS???? FROM THE ABOVE LINK.......

<<This is not a substitution for behavioral work and should only be used on dogs in good health and of stable temperament with no major behavioral issues. If you have any questions regarding your dog’s behavior, seek professional advice before beginning a NILIF program. But for the average dog, this program is valuable.>>

A puppy who is 5 months old, and AGRESSIVELY attacking his owner is NOT going to be MADE agressive.........he already is.

Now, just out of curiosity.....how would you deal with a dog who is biting you, and if you turn your back bites your arse or ankles, etc. Perhaps you would say walking away and ignoring the behavior? Ok, as I originally asked, how many times is the dog to be allowed to bite, and maybe draw blood before ya realize that it just ain't gonna work?

The shake can does not lead to agressive. It plays upon the startle reaction of the dog, and disconcerts it enough to make it forget about what it was doing. Just like a human parent will rattle a rattle to stop a baby from crying or whatever.

I know Bridey was the one who commented on turning a dog agressive with shake can and squirt bottle, but I figured I would cover both posts, since you seem to concurr with her.

Have either of you ever used the shake can? How many dogs tried to eat you alive because you did? I would really like Bridey to tell everyone what type of dog she used these methods on, and just what results she observed FIRST HAND. Of course I must take what she says as truth, even if she decided to fabricate a senario.

Same with you also, if you would. I really only value responses from people who have tried the various things I bring up, and have a REAL, hands on reason for not liking that particular technique, and what they found to substitute that worked better in the exact same type of senario. I think that is only fair.

[yuckaduck]

Oh here we go again is well worth my time and since it is my questions I tend to wish to read Manchesters posts as much as the rest. As a matter of fact it was taken a step furthur and we chatted person to person via the telephone. Long long chat and she is not the troll you wish to describe, as a matter of fact she seems to be extremely knowledgeable and her dogs are not abused. They started barking once and a firm Quiet made silence again. Now there was no yipping or screams of pain, no yelling or screaming. I'm sorry I very strongly disagree with the suggestion that she is abusive towards her animals. If you guys wish for me to read your posts and take them seriously then don't accusse my husband of being aggressive or abussive to Yukon. Why in god's name would a dog want to play with someone who is abusive? He won't. So shake those thoughts out of your heads. He is puppy aggressive, not making him that he is that. The shake can is a toy to him, if I throw it anywhere near him including at him, he grabs it and brings it to me to throw again just like a ball. If I spray him he jumps up and tries to catch the water, he is a water hog. So the shaking just may work, now we ain't gonnan break his neck or anything here it is a gentle but firm reminder that this is unacceptable behaviour. Like I said if we ignore him as Fran suggested he knocks us down and starts humping us. I really don't believe that is the end result that you are aiming for. So that is just not an option here. I will read everybody's ideas except of those that are utterly ridiculous. Don't ever suggest that we have ever or will ever abuse Yukon because that is only asking for a fight and it is not constructive at all.

[Doberluv]

Yes, I read that article and many others.

From the description of what this dog is doing, I don't get the feeling he IS being aggressive. He's playing too wildly and not respecting Marc's wishes to have him settle down. Without seeing the dog, it is not entirely possible to know for sure what he's doing. I'm just going by what she wrote.

The shake can is not the worst thing you can do to a dog....to be sure. But, it could be frightening to SOME dogs....scare them. This is not a way to make a dog WANT to learn or obey. It IS a way to shock them into paying attention. Yes. How many times do you let them bite? You don't need to let them bite too many times. If it's that rough, you can ostrasize (sp?) them....push them out of the "pack" which is the ultimate punishment. Seperate yourself from the dog for a few minutes...time out. So, it takes a few times to convince the dog that nothing good comes from biting. Whoever gets a puppy and expects it to be an adult with one or two scruffs or alpha rolls? If anyone is that impatient for results, they should start out with an adult dog who's already civilized.

My Doberman was like this dog as a pup....very, very rambunctious and rough, big teeth, big paws which knew now boundaries. He turned into a lovely, well mannered, gentle, happy, trusting two year old. He became very nice, willing and manageable by the time he was about 4-6 months old. And I never used noisy cans, squirt bottles of water to the face, scruffs, alpha rolls or any other adversive measures. I've trained a lot of dogs this way and I assure you, it works Yuckaduck if you take the time to learn the principles and technuiqes and learn them right.

[Doberluv]

The shake can is a toy to him, if I throw it anywhere near him including at him, he grabs it and brings it to me to throw again just like a ball. If I spray him he jumps up and tries to catch the water, he is a water hog.

Well, in that case with your particular dog, he has been rewarded for that behavior. That's the thing. Some dogs are afraid and some think of it all as attention. (payoff) The sure fire thing that works is removal of any attention and removal of the pack. But you do whatever you think is best. Good luck.

[yuckaduck]

Sure I can remove him from the pack, my only option there is to crate him but he would be crated 24/7. We tried that and he was in the crate for two full days, went out to pee and train but would not stop being a goof inside. So it really did not work.

[Doberluv]

Well, you can't leave a dog in a crate 24/7! I gave my obnoxious pup lots of exercise and play time which made him tired. He had a few structured training sessions during the day and at odd times more mini training sessions. He had walks in different places....he just needed a very structured day and lots of socializing and training. It sounds like you don't seem to have anything that works for you. I'm sorry.

[Manchesters]

Well, in that case with your particular dog, he has been rewarded for that behavior. That's the thing. Some dogs are afraid and some think of it all as attention. (payoff) The sure fire thing that works is removal of any attention and removal of the pack. But you do whatever you think is best. Good luck.

Sometimes there are just dogs/puppies that are nut butts. From what I was told Yukon has drawn blood. Yuckaduck said that she was told by someone in the postion to know that Yukon is a submissive pup who may very well become a fear biter, and that the whole litter was mentally weird.

The truly harsh and forceful methods were likely developed by people who had to work with dogs that were mentally out of joint. Like that dog Barron THAT I CRUELLY BEAT WITH A CHAIR while he was trying to inhale me. The only thing that could be done with him was to kill him. Period. He was schizophrenic. There ARE dogs like that. Hope I came close to spelling that right, lol. Clicker ain't gonna work with this type of dog. And there are other dogs for whom different methods must be tried. And I wish people would stop with the anthromophisizing! Dogs don't feel mentally or verbally abuse when trained with patience and love. I prefer the physically praising the dog rather than the stupid clicker. Just what the heck would you do if the clicker broke? Or do ya'll carry 20 clickers every where with you?

How many here have trained for conformation? That was the major exphasis of my dog work. You teach the "STAND" command, and that is pretty much it. You "bait" your dog to get the ears up, and to get an alert expression. When you gait the dog, you want the dog to run ahead of you without dragging you along.

Those dogs that I did train for personal obedience were extremely happy, outgoing dogs, who loved to work. My girl Kila couldn't get her little nubby butt to the ground fast enough!

And you know how I knew they were happy campers? The big grin on their faces was a dead give away!! I assume that some are familiar with the Dobe smile? NO, not the grin where they show their front teeth. That is a genetic trait.

[yuckaduck]

Actually I think Manchesters ideas are already working. He has left Marc alone for the first time in two days.

[Doberluv]

Good. I hope it lasts forever and nothing backfires on you. Best wishes.

Yes Manchesters...it's a crack up. When Lyric is playing really quite exuberantly with Jose outside and bouncing around, he smooshes up his lips and all his teeth show and he snaps them together. He is sticking his rear way up in the air and wagging his stubby tail and trying to get Jose to chase him. It's too cute. When he's very, very happy, he'll give me that toothy smile. Some Dobes do it and some don't. I'm glad I got a smiler. LOL.

[yuckaduck]

Just to reiderate *spelling is not my forte, I do not and have not been aggressive with the ding dong. However yes Manchesters he does draw blood and several times. It is not play biting, he attacks, bites and he is the worst with my three year old. Funny eh, he does not do this to my two year old, wanna know why? Because she hits or kicks him and so he does not harass her. He will play nicely with her. On a side note how do you quote? How do I get the box with the quote in so everyone knows who I'm responding to rather than people coming back and pm ing me and saying I never said that. Computers are not my forte either.

[Manchesters]

Well, you can't leave a dog in a crate 24/7! I gave my obnoxious pup lots of exercise and play time which made him tired. He had a few structured training sessions during the day and at odd times more mini training sessions. He had walks in different places....he just needed a very structured day and lots of socializing and training. It sounds like you don't seem to have anything that works for you. I'm sorry.

There is definitely going to be something that works. It may very well be a combination of techiniques/methods. Different styles for different difficulties.

I think what my feeling toward reinforcement with food is that I wanted my dogs to work out of love for me and because they had fun doing obedience. Old Fartyblossom would run over when he saw me get his collar and leash, and stand up on his hind legs, grab my wrist with his paw and pull my hand so he could put his head thru the collar. Now it could be very well that HE was the one that conned me into using the cruel, harsh "force" method of training since he was so excited, and had such joy while working with me. Could very well be, rofl. Same with Nikki, Rambo and Kila, I guess. Oooops, almost forgot old killer Misty!!! She would sashay down the street heeling, so proud of herself, rofl.

It is a shame the dogs didn't realize how badly they were being abused. But they were just plain having too much fun to care.

I will take love over a bribe anytime. Look at the parents today who bribe their kids. Look at the sad state they are in. Love worked for me. If people today don't have enough love and have to resort to clickers.........well if it works then by all means use it. Just please don't tell me how I trained my dogs, since you don't know, and weren't there.

And again, anyone who considers a leash correction (properly used) anything but OK has never seen the slip collar used properly!!!!

[Manchesters]

Just to reiderate *spelling is not my forte, I do not and have not been aggressive with the ding dong. However yes Manchesters he does draw blood and several times. It is not play biting, he attacks, bites and he is the worst with my three year old. Funny eh, he does not do this to my two year old, wanna know why? Because she hits or kicks him and so he does not harass her. He will play nicely with her. On a side note how do you quote? How do I get the box with the quote in so everyone knows who I'm responding to rather than people coming back and pm ing me and saying I never said that. Computers are not my forte either.

They make it super easy for us.....at the bottom right of the post, just click onto "QUOTE" and it will do all the work for you.

[yuckaduck]

They make it super easy for us.....at the bottom right of the post, just click onto "QUOTE" and it will do all the work for you.
Aw cool it does work thank you now that will sure help me to stop confusing everyone. Thanks again

[yuckaduck]

[QUOTE=Doberluv]Good. I hope it lasts forever and nothing backfires on you. Best wishes.

Why would it backfire? I don't do anything nasty, aggressive or harsh. Why do you assume if it is Manchesters advice it will be bad? :D
Like I said I talk to her for how long, about three hours and I heard no abuse or harshness. Once they started yapping and it was one firm Quiet no abuse no screaming no nothing. :)

[Manchesters]

[QUOTE=Doberluv]Good. I hope it lasts forever and nothing backfires on you. Best wishes.

Why would it backfire? I don't do anything nasty, aggressive or harsh. Why do you assume if it is Manchesters advice it will be bad? :D
Like I said I talk to her for how long, about three hours and I heard no abuse or harshness. Once they started yapping and it was one firm Quiet no abuse no screaming no nothing. :)

If anyone has a webcam, and wants to IM with me, I will be tickled to show off my brats to you (every grandmothers DREAM!!!!) I mean they are the happiest looking bunch of dogs I have ever been around.
And I can introduce them to whomever wants to see them! I would even be willing to put on some clothes, and comb my hair, roflmfbo!!!!!!!

HOW ABOUT IT???

[yuckaduck]

You know what Yukon is laying quietly beside Marc right now and we followed Manchesters advice. Now if it was so abusive why would he lay beside him? Poor doogy such a rough life having to mind ones manners.

[Manchesters]

I need a clicker so I can quick train these stupid squirrels that are hurling themselves onto the birdfeeder, and been falling to the ground. It has been raining squirrels all morning!!!!! And the birds are going bonkers too--flying into each other out there......I have 5 feeders! The boys are keeping a lookout for the squirrels that land inside this yard. But I sure would not want any of my dogs to get bitten!

[yuckaduck]

I need a clicker so I can quick train these stupid squirrels that are hurling themselves onto the birdfeeder, and been falling to the ground. It has been raining squirrels all morning!!!!! And the birds are going bonkers too--flying into each other out there......I have 5 feeders! The boys are keeping a lookout for the squirrels that land inside this yard. But I sure would not want any of my dogs to get bitten!
Make sure those squirrels don't have any diseases because if they bite a dog it could be big problems for the dog. It would concern me greatly, oh well if they fall enough times maybe they will get the hint to bug off.

[Tail_Chaser]

[QUOTE=yuckaduck]

I would even be willing to put on some clothes, and comb my hair, roflmfbo!!!!!!!

HOW ABOUT IT???

ROFL geez!

**** Squirrels

[Manchesters]

[QUOTE=Manchesters]

ROFL geez!

**** Squirrels

Clothes to replace the nightgowns I usually wear around here, lol.

Don't get too excited there, T.C. Rofl.

[Tail_Chaser]

Now I'm picturing you like who was it, Carol Burnett, that played Mama on Mama's Family! Oh yeah minus those 45 pounds you lost being sick.

[yuckaduck]

Now I'm picturing you like who was it, Carol Burnett, that played Mama on Mama's Family! Oh yeah minus those 45 pounds you lost being sick.
Sorry it wasn't Carole it was Vikki Lawerence who played Mama on Mama's Family.

[Tail_Chaser]

Thanks! I get them messed up, really liked their acting/comedy style.

[yuckaduck]

Me too, both of them. Laugh myself silly.

[yuckaduck]

Back to original post Yukon has maintained his quiet good boy attitude. He is being nice and only playing when asked right now. So nice and so much quieter and much better than chasing him all around to try and get control.

[bridey_01]

How many breeds of dogs have I trained with a clicker, geez. A better question would be how many breeds HAVN'T I trained with a clicker! Well, I can tell you a few. Manchesters (We call the something else here I think), flat coated retreivers, obviously many of the more obscure breeds. As for if the clicker broke? lol, the clicker isn't a totally essential tool in positive training, it is only a marker, a signal if you will. All good trainers will have already used classically conditioning to prime a word (such as YES!) which they tend to use once a behaviour has been refined to perfection with a clicker. The mouthiest dog I have ever had was a bull terrier, and boy was he mouthy. Hands, feet, ankles anything he could get his little needle teeth around. I worked on respect training, taught him that if he doesn't do what I want he simply doesn't get dinner, and then I emplioyed the whole squeeling, ignoring, segregating him.
Unlike many trainers though I continue to play mouthy games with my dogs throughout life, as I believe it is beneficial in maintaining good bite inhibition. It is not uncommon for one of my visitiors to watch me initiate a game with my dogs, whereupon they will leap all around me snarling and jumping and looking like they are killing me. As soon as I say "down" they will be on the floor instantly and I won't have a mark on me. Such training also helps the dogs understand that no matter how worked up they get my word is still final.

[yuckaduck]

How many breeds of dogs have I trained with a clicker, geez. A better question would be how many breeds HAVN'T I trained with a clicker! Well, I can tell you a few. Manchesters (We call the something else here I think), flat coated retreivers, obviously many of the more obscure breeds. As for if the clicker broke? lol, the clicker isn't a totally essential tool in positive training, it is only a marker, a signal if you will. All good trainers will have already used classically conditioning to prime a word (such as YES!) which they tend to use once a behaviour has been refined to perfection with a clicker. The mouthiest dog I have ever had was a bull terrier, and boy was he mouthy. Hands, feet, ankles anything he could get his little needle teeth around. I worked on respect training, taught him that if he doesn't do what I want he simply doesn't get dinner, and then I emplioyed the whole squeeling, ignoring, segregating him.
Unlike many trainers though I continue to play mouthy games with my dogs throughout life, as I believe it is beneficial in maintaining good bite inhibition. It is not uncommon for one of my visitiors to watch me initiate a game with my dogs, whereupon they will leap all around me snarling and jumping and looking like they are killing me. As soon as I say "down" they will be on the floor instantly and I won't have a mark on me. Such training also helps the dogs understand that no matter how worked up they get my word is still final.
Yukon would probably have a good pee on your leg and then walk away laughing. He does not respond to that behavioural training. He is a working police bred german shepherd, they are a breed on their own and require specialized training; unless you want them to walk all over you.
Bet it works for several other breeds though and my neighbour ought to read these posts on positive reinforcement because anything scares her pup but also gotta remember that her pup was hit in the head with a crow bar at 3 months of age because it peed on the floor. So after many vets bills and whatever else, she was able to adopt him. He is now 5 months old has a funny eye can't blame him and a very submissive attitude, can't blame him. Poor pup. Mine on the other hand is the devil reincarnated. But never ever will I beat, hit, be harsh, or aggressive with him. That solves nothing!

[bridey_01]

Lol, geez you must have not much of a concept of animal behavioursim! If something isn't rewarding, dogs won't repeat it, period. German shepherds (especially military line ones!) respond AMAZINGLY to all kinds of training! Saying behaviourism doesn't work is like saying the sky isn't blue. There's simply too much documentation and experience with animal behaviourism to say "oh, er, but it wont work for my dog because he is a such and such". Hell, if it can work for an afghan, it can work for a shepherd.

[yuckaduck]

Lol, geez you must have not much of a concept of animal behavioursim! If something isn't rewarding, dogs won't repeat it, period. German shepherds (especially military line ones!) respond AMAZINGLY to all kinds of training! Saying behaviourism doesn't work is like saying the sky isn't blue. There's simply too much documentation and experience with animal behaviourism to say "oh, er, but it wont work for my dog because he is a such and such". Hell, if it can work for an afghan, it can work for a shepherd.
I guess we agree to disagree because I spent 3 months doing positive reinforcement and guess what he learned absolutely nothing. Two weeks I have been doing leash corrections and firm verbal commands and guess what a much better dog. I know my dog and you do not so don't presume to know it all about him, you've never met him. You maybe a brilliant trainer but your style is not for me or my dog. This is not an insult it is a fact. Ain't willing to waste anymore time on something that doesn't work and continue having him bite the kids and yes draw blood, break the skin bites. On a 2&3 year old little girls, guess what if this goes to a doctor and gets reported what do you think will happen to Yukon? I don't want this and I don't need it. Also an afghan ain't near the brain power of a shepherd, just check on the canine intelligence chart. So they may not think as much about how to do other things. Shpeherds have a strong will and a mind of their own. I do obedience with him but not the clicker crap or positive reinforcement where he walks all over everyone.

[Doberluv]

Lol, geez you must have not much of a concept of animal behavioursim! If something isn't rewarding, dogs won't repeat it, period. German shepherds (especially military line ones!) respond AMAZINGLY to all kinds of training! Saying behaviourism doesn't work is like saying the sky isn't blue. There's simply too much documentation and experience with animal behaviourism to say "oh, er, but it wont work for my dog because he is a such and such". Hell, if it can work for an afghan, it can work for a shepherd.

Yup...and if it can work for an iguana, it can work for a German Shepherd.

Maybe something is amiss in the execution of the method. There are some things one has to learn before something will work. I just can't figure why it isn't working for you. I guess one would have to see what is going on....what the timing is like, what the payoff is when the dog is misbehaving etc. Something is off. But it is ludicrous and to call operant conditioning based training crap and say it doesn't work. You may not be able to make it work, but positive training works. That is a fact. But if you're happy with the improvement you're seeing, then that's great!

You know what Bridey? I've had 2 GSDs and trained them with positive methods. Of course, they were puppies when I started. I found them to be extremely trainable and willing, intelligent and the opposite of stubborn. My last one, Ajax was as willing as my Labs. As a pup he was exuberant and distractable, but not as nearly as distractable as my Doberman. One of these days, I'll put a picture of him on the board. He was a wonderful dog.

[Doberluv]

Heck....to come to think of it....If a Chihuahua can be trained, a GSD can be trained. LOL. (actually, they can. They use them in circuses to do lots of tricks)I can just see me popping a leash on my 5 Lb Chihauhua. She's so submissvie because of her low stature, worried about getting hurt... and so sensative that she'd think I was trying to murder her. I taught her a few little agility tricks yesterday using a clicker...first time and she caught onto some of them, much to my amazment. She never has struck me as the brightest bulb on the tree, but hey, maybe she is and she's just tring to make me think she's dumb so she won't have to do anything. LOL. I still haven't figured out how she's going to make the teeter totter go down once she gets to the end of the board. LOL.

[yuckaduck]

Yup...and if it can work for an iguana, it can work for a German Shepherd.

Maybe something is amiss in the execution of the method. There are some things one has to learn before something will work. I just can't figure why it isn't working for you. I guess one would have to see what is going on....what the timing is like, what the payoff is when the dog is misbehaving etc. Something is off. But it is ludicrous and to call operant conditioning based training crap and say it doesn't work. You may not be able to make it work, but positive training works. That is a fact. But if you're happy with the improvement you're seeing, then that's great!

You know what Bridey? I've had 2 GSDs and trained them with positive methods. Of course, they were puppies when I started. I found them to be extremely trainable and willing, intelligent and the opposite of stubborn. My last one, Ajax was as willing as my Labs. As a pup he was exuberant and distractable, but not as nearly as distractable as my Doberman. One of these days, I'll put a picture of him on the board. He was a wonderful dog.
Never said it did not work, said it did not work with my dog.

[Manchesters]

Now I'm picturing you like who was it, Carol Burnett, that played Mama on Mama's Family! Oh yeah minus those 45 pounds you lost being sick.

Maybe around Halloween, rofl. You all can figure out if I am wearing a mask or not, heheheh.

[yuckaduck]

Heck....to come to think of it....If a Chihuahua can be trained, a GSD can be trained. LOL. (actually, they can. They use them in circuses to do lots of tricks)I can just see me popping a leash on my 5 Lb Chihauhua. She's so submissvie because of her low stature, worried about getting hurt... and so sensative that she'd think I was trying to murder her. I taught her a few little agility tricks yesterday using a clicker...first time and she caught onto some of them, much to my amazment. She never has struck me as the brightest bulb on the tree, but hey, maybe she is and she's just tring to make me think she's dumb so she won't have to do anything. LOL. I still haven't figured out how she's going to make the teeter totter go down once she gets to the end of the board. LOL.
Again you are not talking about the same thing here. It is not a question of the gsd not being smart it is the hard wiring of them. Working police bred gsd's are a breed apart as well. Not military dogs, I mean dogs bred for patrol, attack, tracking, scenting I mean hard core police dogs. 8generations of police dogs created this little fellow, both in Canada and Germany.

[yuckaduck]

I can't understand why you have to be insulted because your training style did not work for this particular dog. That is why there are many many different techniques. If only yours worked than it would be the only one that exists. Again I will say it I'm sure you are all brilliant trainers and have trained many many different dogs with your style but it is not for me and my dog. Thanks anyway. I need a more hands on approach otherwise he just runs right over you. This is not a competition between styles or anything. It is straictly a matter of what works best for me. Renee, Manchesters, GermanShperdGurl and Juliefurry have all given me similar styles to try and hey they work. Manchesters style just made more sense as well because she took the time to call me and to talk with me on this.

[Manchesters]

How many breeds of dogs have I trained with a clicker, geez. A better question would be how many breeds HAVN'T I trained with a clicker! Well, I can tell you a few. Manchesters (We call the something else here I think), flat coated retreivers, obviously many of the more obscure breeds. As for if the clicker broke? lol, the clicker isn't a totally essential tool in positive training, it is only a marker, a signal if you will. All good trainers will have already used classically conditioning to prime a word (such as YES!) which they tend to use once a behaviour has been refined to perfection with a clicker. The mouthiest dog I have ever had was a bull terrier, and boy was he mouthy. Hands, feet, ankles anything he could get his little needle teeth around. I worked on respect training, taught him that if he doesn't do what I want he simply doesn't get dinner, and then I emplioyed the whole squeeling, ignoring, segregating him.
Unlike many trainers though I continue to play mouthy games with my dogs throughout life, as I believe it is beneficial in maintaining good bite inhibition. It is not uncommon for one of my visitiors to watch me initiate a game with my dogs, whereupon they will leap all around me snarling and jumping and looking like they are killing me. As soon as I say "down" they will be on the floor instantly and I won't have a mark on me. Such training also helps the dogs understand that no matter how worked up they get my word is still final.

Down where you are, Standard Manchesters are Manchesters, I believe. The Toy Manchester is called the English Toy Terrier, right?

If you work your dogs in protection work bite inhibition may be necessary. But once a dog knows never to put a tooth on a human, your don't need to worry about it.

[bridey_01]

Not necessarily true, I have been to a few cases whereupon a dog that had never bitten before has been stumbled upon and his resulting defense snap has gone deep to bone. This was a combination of very little socialisation as a puppy, and absolutly no bite inhibition training as he was growing up. He wasn't a bad dog, he just had no idea how much damage he could do, or even how to inhibit his biting. The way I do it, I put the undesirable behaviour (in this case biting) on cue so that I can "activate" it when I want to. Putting a behaviour you don't want on cue is a nifty way of curing it actually, but that's getting pretty technical.

[Manchesters]

Not necessarily true, I have been to a few cases whereupon a dog that had never bitten before has been stumbled upon and his resulting defense snap has gone deep to bone. This was a combination of very little socialisation as a puppy, and absolutly no bite inhibition training as he was growing up. He wasn't a bad dog, he just had no idea how much damage he could do, or even how to inhibit his biting. The way I do it, I put the undesirable behaviour (in this case biting) on cue so that I can "activate" it when I want to. Putting a behaviour you don't want on cue is a nifty way of curing it actually, but that's getting pretty technical.

Max was fully protection trained. So was Misty.

And of I living proof that the baloney about no animal is going to continue a behavior if it gets unpleasant results. The idiot squirrels are falling off these birds feeders 30 feet to the ground, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER. So much so it won't be repeated. Shucks, maybe I should get a clicker and stand outside and click every time one of them bounces off the ground, roflmbo. And I even have dog food up on the carport roof for them, but they insist on maiming themselves! Maybe the pain is the reward??? Well, as I was typing another one just bit the dust. This one only fell about 6 feet. AND GUESS WHAT???????? THE LITTLE SUCKER CLIMBED RIGHT BACK UP----AND FELL OFF AGAIN WITH A THUD.

I wonder if conditioned response will kick in before any one of them kills itself????? One just walked past on top of my fence, looking a bit the worse for wear, lol.

[bridey_01]

Obviously the reward is good enough to withstand the pain! Think about it, most predators risk great pain and injury when hunting (they regularily get kicked, bitten, trampled and knocked to the ground) but they will continue to do it because the pay off is worth it!

[bridey_01]

That sounds really funny though, I wish we had squirrels here, I could add one to my menagerie.

[Manchesters]

That sounds really funny though, I wish we had squirrels here, I could add one to my menagerie.

I'll stand outside with a net and catch them as they fall, rofl.

There is not need for them to cream themselves on the ground. There is plenty of dog food accessible to them on the top of the carport. They are just proof that food rewards don't work. For running across a long metal pipe I put between the tree and the carport, they get all the food they want.

Another one is about to fall off the feeder I have set on a pole--the one that is only about 5 feet off the ground. Oooopsssss there he went!

[bridey_01]

I think this is a great example that food rewards DO work! Not only are the squirrels repeating painful behaviours just to get at it, they are so intent on it they obviously havn't noticed the more accesible food (or maybe that is just their nutty minds, get it, nutty? ha)
P.s, be sure to send me one. I want to teach it to smoke:)

[Dreeza]

I think this is a great example that food rewards DO work! Not only are the squirrels repeating painful behaviours just to get at it, they are so intent on it they obviously havn't noticed the more accesible food (or maybe that is just their nutty minds, get it, nutty? ha)
P.s, be sure to send me one. I want to teach it to smoke:)


you can have alll the squirrels you want...they are EVERYWHERE...

its funny, cuz, up at school (45 min drive) the squirrels are like, 3x the size as they are over here...cuz everyone feeds them...and they arent scared of humans really..

i was innocently eating my lunch when the fattest squirrel i have ever seen is like 2 inches away from my foot.,..it scared the crap out of me, so i stomped my foot next to it...i swear, that thing jumped a foot in the air...landed on its belly, than scampered off...

haha wait, they dont hop like normal squirrels up at school either...they have to walk cuz they are too fat


(sorry, ADD kicked in)

now back to the thread...

[bridey_01]

Oh they seem like such funny things! I wish we had them walking around stealing lunches! we only have pigeons, crows and Ibis.

[yuckaduck]

I got to go visiting but thought it wise to sneak downstairs to log in for a minute. Yukon peed in his crate last night again, he had stopped for a very short time. This was a full pee not a squirt. He was nutso with Marc and we did the leash corrections and everything else that Manchesters suggested and he settled. Now we are visiting and he has been banned to the yard because he won't stop jumping at the baby. He is good with us but with the week old human baby he is very jealous so he continues to jump up. Sometimes it is better to eliminate the problem rather than risk injury. I can guarantee he will not be invited back again. Next time he will have to stay home in the crate, at least until he learns that good manners are the only acceptable behaviour. Yukon so much has a mind of his own that I think it will be a constant battle everyday with him.

[bridey_01]

Doesn't look like the problem has been eliminated though, does it. I'm sorry if I seem confrontational to you, but I spend all day every day helping people with the exact problems that you are encountering, and it is frustrating for me to hear about it when I KNOW other methods could work. Positive reinforcement is only part of a much larger theory based on the principles of learning. It's not all "click and treat", nor is it at all permissive.

[yuckaduck]

Doesn't look like the problem has been eliminated though, does it. I'm sorry if I seem confrontational to you, but I spend all day every day helping people with the exact problems that you are encountering, and it is frustrating for me to hear about it when I KNOW other methods could work. Positive reinforcement is only part of a much larger theory based on the principles of learning. It's not all "click and treat", nor is it at all permissive.
So 3 months with absolutely no improvement is better than 2 weeks of more hands on training where he has improved greatly? He is not perfect but he has stopped biting the kids. That's a big one for me. Now he is jealous and is jumping up. Right now he is on leash with my foot on it keeping him in the down. The leash is very loose he could jump but he is not. Now that he has had some running around outside it is time for him to learn we don't jump period. If he goes to jump again he will get a leash corrections and a No OFF.
If he jumps at an adult he gets his front paws grabbed and we tap his back feet as Manchesters describes in another thread, and guess what he doesn't jump on us anymore. So it must work. He just needs to transfer that to all people now not just the immediate family.

[sparks19]

I have found that keeping the halti on Teddy when someone new comes over and taking him aside and doing tricks and such when the new person goes to the living room and sits down. he is kept on the halti and we go into the living room and sit failry close to the new person and do a few more tricks. This is so that he is focused on me and not the new person. it has worked tremendously for us as before he was totally out of control when someone new would come over.

[Manchesters]

I think this is a great example that food rewards DO work! Not only are the squirrels repeating painful behaviours just to get at it, they are so intent on it they obviously havn't noticed the more accesible food (or maybe that is just their nutty minds, get it, nutty? ha)
P.s, be sure to send me one. I want to teach it to smoke:)

You are going to hate me for this, but I promise NOT to gloat. The squirrels get NO FOOD REWARD! These are 150% squirrel proof feeders. They can't get a blasted thing from them.

As I said that disproves the theory that animals only repeat a behavior when they receive a reward for it!!! I swear, no cracking up on my part, heheheheh. Ooops.......that just slipped out, lol.

[AndrewF]

You are going to hate me for this, but I promise NOT to gloat. The squirrels get NO FOOD REWARD! These are 150% squirrel proof feeders. They can't get a blasted thing from them.

As I said that disproves the theory that animals only repeat a behavior when they receive a reward for it!!! I swear, no cracking up on my part, heheheheh. Ooops.......that just slipped out, lol.

But it's the food that motivates them...unless they actually are splitting into a subspecies of squirrel which enjoys bungie jumping without a rope. Gloat denied. :D

[Doberluv]

Did they ever have food in the feeders or some other feeders in the area? Is there any naturally occuring food in the area? Are these squirrel proof things fun for the squirrels to play around with? Do they jiggle or move or make a sound when they fool around by them? Do they hold some curiosity for the squrrels? Are they something that could be construed as more interesting to investigate than the same old, same old trees?

[Manchesters]

But it's the food that motivates them...unless they actually are splitting into a subspecies of squirrel which enjoys bungie jumping without a rope. Gloat denied. :D

That is EXACTLY it, Andrew. They get no food, they are slung off into space and fall about 30 feet to the ground, or into the shrubs if they are lucky. The feeders close down from the squirrels' weight. The one type is the Stop-A-Squirrel. You can see them on the internet if ya do a search.

There is a slew of dog food on the roof of the carport very, very easily accessible to the squirrels. So, these tree rats are repeating this behavior over and over and over with no reward. So perhaps you are right.......I have a new sub species here, rofl.

[Manchesters]

Did they ever have food in the feeders or some other feeders in the area? Is there any naturally occuring food in the area? Are these squirrel proof things fun for the squirrels to play around with? Do they jiggle or move or make a sound when they fool around by them? Do they hold some curiosity for the squrrels? Are they something that could be construed as more interesting to investigate than the same old, same old trees?

These things close down, and usually throw the squirrel off into space. There is always food in the feeders. THey cannot get it no matter what they do. Their reward is a quick trip 30 feet down to the ground.

[AndrewF]

That is EXACTLY it, Andrew. They get no food, they are slung off into space and fall about 30 feet to the ground, or into the shrubs if they are lucky. The feeders close down from the squirrels' weight. The one type is the Stop-A-Squirrel. You can see them on the internet if ya do a search.

There is a slew of dog food on the roof of the carport very, very easily accessible to the squirrels. So, these tree rats are repeating this behavior over and over and over with no reward. So perhaps you are right.......I have a new sub species here, rofl.

Hi Manchesters,

Nothing to do with rewards here - because as you've said, they get nothing. Yet contrary to the laws of evolution (stronger or smarter survive) they still try for the seed in the bird feeders. You just have the fortune (or mis-fortune) of having really stupid squirrels.

In any case, whether praise, food or a chance to play with a special ball is the reward, a dog, cat, horse and perhaps even a battered and bruised squirrel will complete a task with the potential reward as the motivation. Whether that is indeed the end result depends on the trainer.

Now, if you put seed in that bowl you mentioned instead of dog kibble you'd have a real chance to see if it was the thrill of flight or the hope of food which motivates your squirrels....(afterall, flying squirrels had to get their start somewhere ;) )

[yuckaduck]

I have found that keeping the halti on Teddy when someone new comes over and taking him aside and doing tricks and such when the new person goes to the living room and sits down. he is kept on the halti and we go into the living room and sit failry close to the new person and do a few more tricks. This is so that he is focused on me and not the new person. it has worked tremendously for us as before he was totally out of control when someone new would come over.
When we have company come to our place we actually work off the slip collar and it is working. We use to simply crate him, before. We are today at someone else's house and it took him about 5 mins to figure out he could jump so he did, I had a flat collar on him, I put the slip collar on gave one leash correction and he is clam relaxed and not jumping. Silly me for using the flat collar, how many times have I been told slip collar now, yet I still forgot to use it. Duh on my part.

[bridey_01]

Even though they are getting mulitple (and most likely painful!) corrections for their behaviour, these squirrels are still jumping at just the THOUGHT of food!
I think it pretty much demonstrates the strength of positive training!
And geuss what, I'm not even going to TRY not to gloat *bout of extreme gloatedly gloatiness*.

[Manchesters]

Even though they are getting mulitple (and most likely painful!) corrections for their behaviour, these squirrels are still jumping at just the THOUGHT of food!
I think it pretty much demonstrates the strength of positive training!
And geuss what, I'm not even going to TRY not to gloat *bout of extreme gloatedly gloatiness*.

There is a plentiful supply of dog chow onto of the carport, readily available to them. I even put a 20 foot pipe between the tree and the carport so the idiots can just scamper across to the food. They are IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!

[bridey_01]

Lol, either they don't like to food enough, they don't know it is there, or whatever is in the bird feeder is top stuff!

[bridey_01]

the, not to, damned those crafty spelling error squirrells!

[Manchesters]

Lol, either they don't like to food enough, they don't know it is there, or whatever is in the bird feeder is top stuff!

From the little I know of squirrels, if it isn't nailed down they will eat it whether they like it or not. And they have been eating it right along.
They sure know it is there, because the Bluejays, woodpeckers, and a pair of crows pig out on it.

I think the squirrels are like you and I are, stubborn and determined that if something is there they ARE going to get it, roflmbo. I think it is the challenge!!!!

I started feeding them last Sept. after Ivan devasted Pensacola's trees. There were no acorns.....no nothing for the squirrels. These little suckers have been here since then...several live here---Stumpy and his/her siblings. I cannot afford to feed squirrels bird seed--it is bad enough that the Jays and woodpeckers have figured out how to flap their wings and lighten their weight so the squirrel proof feeders will open enough for them to steal some seed!!! Well, actually it is the jays that do that. The woodpeckers seem to be right on the line of not too heavy/too heavy.

The dogs often enjoy watching the birds flapping around over their heads, but they act like it makes them dizzy, rofl.

[bridey_01]

Lol, we have these things called bush turkeys here, and they are about twice or three times the size of a big chicken. My kelpie is utterly fascinated with them. She will stand quivering all over with her pupils the size of dinner plates when she sees one. She won't chase it till I tell her "ok". I have this other game where I tell her "ok, one step" and she will take this tiny itty bitty step.

[AndrewF]

Lol, we have these things called bush turkeys here, and they are about twice or three times the size of a big chicken. My kelpie is utterly fascinated with them. She will stand quivering all over with her pupils the size of dinner plates when she sees one. She won't chase it till I tell her "ok". I have this other game where I tell her "ok, one step" and she will take this tiny itty bitty step.
Jake would love those!!! The other day he managed to pounce on a morning dove....and don't worry, the dove lived...mind you, those birds aren't especially bright.

[bridey_01]

Yes, they are huge and black with a red head and this dangly yellow thing on their throats. I usually give them some seed in the morning and they come running out of the bush in the backyard. I always wonder if May wants to herd them or eat them, but I feel too sorry for the turkeys to find out so I havn't told her ok in a long time. The last time I let her chase one it flew into a gum tree and she STILL whines and stares at that tree first thing in the morning when I let her out.

[bridey_01]

Before I was a trainer my Mum's chihuahua's used to KILL and EAT doves! We would come home to this pile of blood feathers and the chihuahuas would be super happy all day.

[Renee750il]

From the little I know of squirrels, if it isn't nailed down they will eat it whether they like it or not. And they have been eating it right along.


Squirrels have preferences too, lol! When we lived in coastal Carolina I had a whole troop of squirrels tamed to take food from my hands. My Nanny brought a huge box of hickory nuts she'd gathered up for us to feed them one summer when she came to visit (no hickory trees in coastal Carolina). Those squirrels developed a real taste for those hickory nuts . . . When the nuts were gone, they didn't want to go back to peanuts, walnuts and pecans. I'll never forget the day I gave one a nice big peanut and he scampered up to his favorite brunch-branch, turned it over and over, examined it, sniffed it, then brought it down the tree, dropped it at my feet and hunted until he found a hickory nut he'd buried and took it back up the tree to eat ~

[yuckaduck]

For all of you who accused Manchesters of abusing her dogs, I saw them in real time through a web camera and they were happy, jumping up on her lap and sticking out there cute little tongues. They were giving kisses and seemed really happy. I saw no aggression from human or doggies. They were well behaved and very happy dogs. Please never let me hear someone accusing her of abuse again because she has proved it to me that she is not an abuser and you can tell by her happy go lucky dogs.