Principles of learning behavior

[Doberluv]

Why do people poo poo a more positive and fun way to train their dogs which works? Why would someone NOT want to have more fun and enjoyment out of their short time with their dog than havig a stuggle filled with anger and harsh treatment? Why will some resist trying to understand the way canines think and the way all mammals learn? What is it that makes some people rush in to try and solve problems with old, outdated methods? Some of these methods are extemely detrimental to the relationship they have with their dogs. When you hurt or frighten your dog in the name of teaching him something, mostly what you're doing is teaching your dog to fear you. Usually these harsh punishments are not even connected to the behavior you're trying to stop because the timing is all off and the dog is left bewildered. Harsh corrections may teach a dog something, but at what cost? If you want a happier, well adjusted animal who retains his natural spirit and personality, use methods based on learning theory of mammals. This has been known and researched for a very long time, since Pavlov's time and Conrad Lorenz, famous behavioral scientists. If you can grasp the concept and learn the methods correctly, I guarantee you'll have a better trained dog and a much closer bond with your canine pal.

For anyone to say it doesn't work, it's nonsense...well, that is just ignorant. It's used all around the world for many diffent animals by very highly esteemed trainers, behaviorists and scientists. It's used with dogs all the time. This operant conditioning isn't anything new. It's just made a come back and gained popularity in the dog training world. It's huge.

Here is a link with a wonderful table of contents on the left. I encourage you to read each of the areas in the contents, starting at the top with learning behavior. If you think you're interested, read it again, study it, picture it. Save it on your favorite places. Refer back to it. If you don't want to read this or take the time, that is certainly a personal choice. I use to train dogs using more compulsive methods, more corrections. More recently I've used these methods or something close and the difference is like night and day. I've seen and experienced how both philosophies or methods work.

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/

I would love some feedback from those of you with an open mind and a desire to have a better training experience and relationship with your dogs.

[Manchesters]

Why do people poo poo a more positive and fun way to train their dogs which works? Why would someone NOT want to have more fun and enjoyment out of their short time with their dog than havig a stuggle filled with anger and harsh treatment? Why will some resist trying to understand the way canines think and the way all mammals learn? What is it that makes some people rush in to try and solve problems with old, outdated methods? Some of these methods are extemely detrimental to the relationship they have with their dogs. When you hurt or frighten your dog in the name of teaching him something, mostly what you're doing is teaching your dog to fear you. Usually these harsh punishments are not even connected to the behavior you're trying to stop because the timing is all off and the dog is left bewildered. Harsh corrections may teach a dog something, but at what cost? If you want a happier, well adjusted animal who retains his natural spirit and personality, use methods based on learning theory of mammals. This has been known and researched for a very long time, since Pavlov's time and Conrad Lorenz, famous behavioral scientists. If you can grasp the concept and learn the methods correctly, I guarantee you'll have a better trained dog and a much closer bond with your canine pal.

For anyone to say it doesn't work, it's nonsense...well, that is just ignorant. It's used all around the world for many diffent animals by very highly esteemed trainers, behaviorists and scientists. It's used with dogs all the time. This operant conditioning isn't anything new. It's just made a come back and gained popularity in the dog training world. It's huge.

Here is a link with a wonderful table of contents on the left. I encourage you to read each of the areas in the contents, starting at the top with learning behavior. If you think you're interested, read it again, study it, picture it. Save it on your favorite places. Refer back to it. If you don't want to read this or take the time, that is certainly a personal choice. I use to train dogs using more compulsive methods, more corrections. More recently I've used these methods or something close and the difference is like night and day. I've seen and experienced how both philosophies or methods work.

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/

I would love some feedback from those of you with an open mind and a desire to have a better training experience and relationship with your dogs.

Why are you unable to at least try to paint a mental image of what someone has typed? What harsh corrections? Also, my dogs are happy, full spirited and full of joy. You do not know or have experience with all the various breeds of dogs. You do not know the personality traits of all breeds of dogs. For instance.....Afghans and Borzoi are state to be "aloof toward strangers". A stanger come along trying to use positive anything or clicker training is very likely to get eaten. In Sight Hounds, aloof means aloof. You don't mess with them, you don't talk to them....you just leave them alone unless you are their owner.

To give you a hint as far as Manchesters--my stepmom and I lived 150 feet apart. Whenever I had a litter of pups I would load them up and take them next door to toddle around, and so we could play with them. My little 6 1/2 pound B*tch Missy was around Helen ever since the sack was peeled off. She was over at Helen's 4 or 5 times a week as well as out on lot 2 with us. She would never have anything to do with Helen. She would growl and bark at Helen, and not let Helen get near her. This went on for 4 years until Helen died.

It had nothing with poor training, or poor upbringing--it had to do with Manchesters being an aloof breed, and that is the way they act!

So........if you can train a dog or two using your methods, great. All I am saying is do not knock what a professional says, just because you have no point of reference from which to judge and can not figure out what they heck they are talking about. Look at the dogs on my web site. Show my any that are backed into a corner shuddering in fear. Where the heck did you get that crap from anyway? And I have not done any training for 7 years! That was when I had my last litter, and once they were trained in "house Manners", that was it for me.

Go to the AKC site and look at the various breed standards for the different breeds. Especially temperament. You do not allow for the individual breed dispositions, and you do not know enough breeds personally to be able to make blanket statement about training methods. That is my only gripe. As I said I could have scores of folks come here and post and tell about the sweet, super outgoing spoiled rotten dogs I have. But you wouldn't believe them anyway, most likely.

You is a good person---you just prejudge people. Which I must say is disappointing. I thought that you had enough experience that you could translate what I was saying into Dog Speak, rofl.

I am also disappointed at this snide thread! Remember it well, and if you ever get into the dog world, maybe you will suddenly grasp what I have been saying! I am taking time out of my life to try to help people with the most simple methods possible to solve the most serious problems a dog can have. Simply grasping a pup by the skin under the chin, and telling it NO BITE is not cruel or abusive. Have you EVER tried it? Etc. I give up. When there is nothing to connect to, words are wasted. But I would be curious to see just what harshness and abuse can be found in anything I have posted......instead it is a total lack of comprehension on the part of the reader....not the poster. Enjoy your thread at the expense of those of us who have actually had experience in training and showing dogs. I don't suppose you have shown in AKC obedience, have you?

Toodles..........

[Fran27]

Weren't you going to bed Manchesters?

[Doberluv]

Simply grasping a pup by the skin under the chin, and telling it NO BITE is not cruel or abusive I agree!

You don't know what experience I have or what dogs I've trained.

My neighbors raised Irish Wolfhouds, as I said before somewhere. They're sighthounds, aren't they? They were lovely, well mannered, trained, shown and not very aloof. They were very friendly to people, but aggressive toward other dogs. These people worked with them very gently. They would use verbal corrections and firmness, as I do too. But they didn't mop the floors with them or toss them around. LOL.

Manchesters...I don't think everything you mentioned is terribly harsh. Some sounds a bit frightening. I don't mean to insult you. I have worked with lots of different dogs for a number of years and I'm just so thrilled with this way of training that I want to share. I know...I sound like....well....nevermind what I sound like. Ok...I'll drop it. I like everyone here and don't want to hurt feelings or insult anyone. I'm a natural born preacher. I should have been one. ROFLOL!

[Manchesters]

I agree!

You don't know what experience I have or what dogs I've trained.

My neighbors raised Irish Wolfhouds, as I said before somewhere. They're sighthounds, aren't they? They were lovely, well mannered, trained, shown and not very aloof. They were very friendly to people, but aggressive toward other dogs. These people worked with them very gently. They would use verbal corrections and firmness, as I do too. But they didn't mop the floors with them or toss them around. LOL.

Manchesters...I don't think everything you mentioned is terribly harsh. Some sounds a bit frightening. I don't mean to insult you. I have worked with lots of different dogs for a number of years and I'm just so thrilled with this way of training that I want to share. I know...I sound like....well....nevermind what I sound like. Ok...I'll drop it. I like everyone here and don't want to hurt feelings or insult anyone. I'm a natural born preacher. I should have been one. ROFLOL!

At least as far as I am concerned. Although you pissed me off in the other thread when you said I smack my dogs around.

NO.....Wolfhounds are NOTHING like a typical Sight Hound. They are couch potatoes. Nothing freaks them out---nothing is worth the effort. They are aloof toward people, but will tolerate them, very gruginly. However some of them are surly toward people. What I have been trying to explain to you is that simply by virtue of having lived a few years more and having been involved in dogs for 50 years (I obedience trained my first dog at age 10--oops, guess that makes it 53 years!! Half a century.....Good grief!!!!!) and involved in the showing and breeding of dogs I have been exposed to almost every breed of dog, and seen first hand what their behavior is, and had tons of anectodal stories to draw from.

I am not trying to better anyone.......all I am saying is that what method works wonders for one dog of one breed will not work automatically for every dog of every breed. And until a person is at least familiar with the different characteristics of different breeds they are not in a position to denegrate another person's methods.

And for another thing, you can't slap Manchester around. They are too darned fast, and too small to catch! And I ain't joking there!

Just for instance, tell me everything you know about Manchester temperament, personality and living with them. Then, tell me what training method you would have used.

Same with the Whippets. I in turn will be glad to do the same with any breed with which you are familiar! Except for them C.O.s. I could guess that they would be very much like the Komondor, since they are guarders. But I really wouldn't bet on being accurate, rofl.

And Fran, you are just a total twit. I really wish that you would just leave me the heck alone. You have nothing to contribute. All you do is make fun of what others say or do. Read some dog books, maybe you can find some nuggets of knowlege to share!! I say this because I just got done responding to your ridiculous post in another thread. And just to try to be civil to someone who does not deserve it, I am waiting for the Naprosyn to start working for the horrid pain in my left arm from the strained tendons and ligaments. Maybe some day YOU WILL WAKE UP from your perpetual "out of it" state, roflmbo.

[Doberluv]

Hey, guess what a Doberman Pinscher is everybody. They're made up of Manchester Terrier, Greyhound, Rottweiler, possibly Great Dane and possibly Weimeraner...there's a shepherd in there...I think a Teruven (what is that spelling?) Pinscher = Terrier in German. And there may be some other stuff....there's speculation of their entire history. Did I ever work with a Terrier or sighthound? LOL.

[bridey_01]

Terriers, sighthounds, your amazingly special manchesters. They all need to eat, and that is the only thing I need to teach a dog via postive methods. All this "But sight hounds and terriers are SOOO different" is a bunch of balony. I find terriers to be fast and willing learners, as long as you find out what makes them tick. I have personal experience in many many breeds, especially terriers as they seem to be nearly half of all the house calls I get! As for sighthounds, they need even gentler handling as most tend to be extremely sensitive and reactive to things. This does not mean they are untrainable. I am so sick of owners telling me in explanation of their dogs problems "Oh, but what can you expect from an (insert breed here)"

[Doberluv]

I am so sick of owners telling me in explanation of their dogs problems "Oh, but what can you expect from an (insert breed here)"

BIG DITTO!!!!

You are sooooo right on. Canines are canines. They are mammals. They have a brain. They need to eat. They need to protect themselves from harm. There are small differences from breed to breed as far as temperament, but all life forms with a brain stem learn in the same way. Find out what they want or need to survive and you've got them in the palm of your hand. I'm sick of hearing about all these different breeds. So what! So they vary a little bit. Sooooo make the adjustment in finding their motivator.

[stirder]

manchesters, you just dont listen and yet you get mad at others for the same thing. as I told you before, twice I think, I trained a jack russel with clicker and food. there is also another JRT trained by a schutzhund trainer in texas (san antonio, austin) that has a sch III title, trained only with clicker/food rewards. so yes, terriers can be trained that way.

[Doberluv]

Who uses clicker training? Check out this site

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/Who.htm

[stirder]

know the dog moose? the JRT who played eddie on Fraser and Skip on my dog skip? clicker trained. the tibetan mastiff who played max on mans best friend? clicker trained. the pig in babe? clicker. a green iguana on pet star and several other animal planet shows? clicker. my wifes uncles wire haired pointing griffon? clicker. all the animals on the movies "cats and dogs" and "good boy"? ranging from beagles to anatolian shepherd dogs to english sheepdogs, boxer, whippet, and others, including CATS???? clicker trained.

[Doberluv]

Yeah, so you people who think it doesn't work, put that in your pipe and smoke it! LOL!

[Mordy]

Why do people poo poo a more positive and fun way to train their dogs which works?

i just had to snip out the first sentence of your post.

my answer: they do it mainly because they are lazy, too set in their ways to consider different approaches, and ignorant to principles of learning.

there is still that big misunderstanding out there that you have to establish "dominance" over your dog and that compulsion and punishment bring faster, more reliable results.

most of the "traditional" trainers i've discussed the topic with (well, to an extent, they have a tendency to get pretty hostile for some reason :D ) are simply unwilling to even read literature on the topic. it's almost like they are afraid to try new things - just like most dogs who have been trained with traditional compulsion methods. ironic, isn't it? lol

[bridey_01]

Well I try to be compassionate about their ignorance or unwillingness by imagining how I would feel if someone came up to me and said "All your training theories are wrong, come look at these much better ones!".
Then again, I would probably look lol

[stirder]

ironic? maybe. ignorant? deffinetly. I personally beleive in dominance but I rarely admit that to people because my version of dominance is not remotely what people think it means. so when I am teaching people how to train their dog, I never mention dominance. when I think of dominance I think, a responsible, respectable, highly loved leader. by leader I mean, I make the decisions. but I do not "punish" when they ignore or do not understand a command. ANY physical correction helps deteriorate the bond and trust I have established with my dog/dogs.
but when you mention dominance everyone assumes you mean jerking the leash/collar, rolling the dog over, scruffing its neck, slapping/kicking etc. do wild wolves often bare their teeth, scruff a less dominant member of the pack, etc? absolutely, and quite often a lower member of the pack takes over leadership. if you immitate this behaviour with your dog, there is a frequent if not constant power struggle.
its like with people. if I beat my son, its probably because my dad beat me, and my son will probably beat his son. also the saying "you get more bees with honey than with vinegar" something a certain member of this forum could really stand to learn when training AND posting.

[Doberluv]

My Grandmother asked my Grandfather if he would like some creamed onions. He said, that he didn't.....didn't like them. "But you never had them. Are you sure you won't try some?" said my Grandmother. "No thank you." "Please..just try them." "No... I'm afraid I might like them...... and I don't like them. (true story)

[sammydawg]

thanks for a great link :)

[Fran27]

Rofl Doberluv.

[Rose's Gal]

My Grandmother asked my Grandfather if he would like some creamed onions. He said, that he didn't.....didn't like them. "But you never had them. Are you sure you won't try some?" said my Grandmother. "No thank you." "Please..just try them." "No... I'm afraid I might like them...... and I don't like them. (true story)
LOL His reply made no sense whatsoever. "No...I'm afraid I might like them....and I don't like them." lol That sounds like someting I would say... :o

I don't train using purely positive training meathods. I use a Choke Chain, along with food and praise. I only use the Choke Chain when the dog already knows the command, but refuses to follow it. That is when they get a little pop with the leash. And then when they do follow through, they get lots of treats and praise. I don't use the CC when I'm first teaching a dog, because they don't know what I want, so correcting them would be futile.
I think that different meathods work for different dogs.
Here are examples of how I think of the different training meathods.

Positive training: You are learning to play the piano. The teacher puts a music piece in front of you (I know...you really don't start playing the piano that way, but work with me here. ;) ) and shows you how to do it. Then, she has you do it. For every right thing you do, she tells you "Good!" and gives you a piece of candy to eat later. For ever mistake you do, she ignores you, and if you keep making mistakes, she shows you what to do again, and then when you do it right, she gives you a peice of candy. Sometimes, when you do a good job, you get a really big reward. And sometimes when you refuse to do something, you just aren't let out to play.
(I don't know about you guys, but I want this piano teacher! lol Ok, mine in real life is really good, but still.... :) )

Traditional Meathods: You are learning to play the piano. The teacher puts a music piece in front of you, places your hands where they need to go, and then tells you to play. You look at her dumbfounded, and you start guessing on what to do. As soon as you play the wrong note, she says, "No." And then she posistions your hands again. You finally get lucky and you play the right note. All she says is, "Good. Now do it again." You try again but you get it wrong. "No." only this time with a little tap on the head. You finally get fed up and scream, "I quit!" and you walk away. Your teacher gets mad, grabs her paddle, and slaps you on the butt with it while forcing you back down, puts your hands in place, and says, "Play." You do, because your butt is stinging, and you get it right, mostly out of fear. She says, "Good." along with a pat on the back.
(I don't know about you guys...but I don't want this teacher. Sure, I might end up doing what she wants, but that will be out of fear, not out of respect.)

Mixed Meathod (what I do): You are learning to play the piano. The teacher puts a music piece in front of you and then shows you what to do. Then she tells you to do it. You try, and you make a mistake. She says, "Let's try again", and she shows you how to do it. You try, and you get it right. She says, "Good!" and gives you a peice of candy. This goes on for a while, until you learn the peice. Then, once you have this peice down pat, and your teacher tells you to play it, you just look at her blankly. She says, "No." and taps you on the head. You decide that it would be a good idea to play it, and you do. She says, "Good!" and gives you a peice of candy. Sometimes, when you do a good job, you get a really big reward. And sometimes when you refuse to do something, you just aren't let out to play.

But that is just my idea of the training meathods. I prefer the positive approach, but I guess since the way I was raised was by the "mixed meathod" approach. You don't do what the parents want, you get grounded, yelled at, spanked (although, for me since I'm sensitive, Dad just looked at me and I broke into tears....), whatever, and then when you do do a good job, you get a toy, candy at the store, or, in my case, a Ferret! lol :D
I
know both meathods work (the mixed meathod, and the positive meathod. I've never tried the Traditional, and I don't plan to) because I did the mixed with Blackie, and the Positive with Rose, and they are both well behaved dogs. (For the most part. lol) I was really shocked one night because Blackie was outside barking at something, so I told him to be quite and go lay down, and Rose layed down! I was even in the house and she was outside! I was so shocked! I was like, "Good GIRL, Rose!!!" lol

[bridey_01]

Well, the only problem with that is that is sends the dogs mixed messages. On the one hand training is fun, on the other, it isnt. This leads to an ambivalent approach to training on the dogs part, besides, if your dog is looking at you blankly when you are giving a command it is because
a. He doesn't know it well enough
b. He isn't motivated enough to do lightening fast commands
Neither of these deserve a correction.

[Doberluv]

LOL His reply made no sense whatsoever. "No...I'm afraid I might like them....and I don't like them." lol That sounds like someting I would say...

It reminded me of some people who when you show them something good still refuse to try it or even read one link about something. It makes me think that they're thinking what my Grandfather meant....He was afraid he might actually like the creamed onions after hearing about them, but since he already said he didn't like them, he didn't want to lose face by trying them and finding out that he does like them, so he was better off keeping to his story and not trying them. I don't want to try them. I might like them and I don't like them. (I already said I don't like them. Too late to change my story and admit that I do like them) LOL

I liked your analogy Rose'sgal, but I think I have to agree with Bridey on this one. I find that when training obedience and agility skills, I don't need to use anything like that....leash pops and other corrections. The dogs do great and have a lot more fun when it's motivation and reward, luring, not forcing. Just more fun for me too. They seem to get smarter too because they have to make a choice in order to get the reward. And the choice isn't based on avoidance of a leash pop. If they're forced into something, they too do not choose. They don't use their heads as well. And they will make the choice we want them to if we're creative and a little ahead of them...making them think it's their idea. With Dobemans, you almost have to train that way because they're so darn clever and creative themselves. LOL.

[Athe]

I havent read all the posts. I will give my opinion though... :)
I have seen the difference between dogs trained with positive methods and those trained with forced based methods. Big difference. When I was getting my CD on my Newf's my dogs enjoyed obedience, I showed them what I wanted...I never forced them to do what I wanted. When you think of how unnatural most of the training and behavior we expect from our dogs you want them to want to default to the proper behavior. Forced based methods never work in pinch, or when you really need that recall, or down to work. When you hard wire the brain to be programmed to expecting good things to happen when a command is given the default behavior is going to be wonderful and reliable. I have watched some forced trained Golden's in obedience trials, some of these dogs slink around...they get their CD and they do what they are supposed to do...but, they are not enjoying it...and I actually watched a few bolt from the ring and the last person they would go to is their owber...almost a "I'm free, maybe some one nice will take me home" haha
Years ago I used forced based methods, I have owned Shepherds, Great Dane mix, Husky mix, Shepherd mix, Border Collie, Great Pyrenees, many many Newfoundlands, Standard Poodle, Rottweiler, a few Doberman's, Dalmatian, etc etc. for the dogs I used forced based methods thier training was never 100%. When I adopted my Rottweiler, she had too many issues to list including aggression, high prey drive which meant she would try to attack any thing that moved...she was all around a horrible dog. :) I was starting her out with force based training when a friend of mine who is an animal behaviorist caught me and raked me over the coals :) she showed me how to show my Rottie what was expected not force her...I saw a 190% change around in this dog. What could have turned into an esculated behavioral problems turned into a dog willing and wanting to please. I have even been successful at either downing her or recalling her during eye stalk motor pattern...this in itself is remarkable for this dog.
The hardest dog to take on is a crossover dog, a dog trained with forced based training...and taking over to positive training. The outcome is very rewarding and the dog becomes a happier all around dog. ;)

[Doberluv]

Fascinating Athe! I enjoyed reading your post. Yes, it is more reliable. The behaviors you want actually become a habit when trained this way.....to expect and receive good things for the behavior. When they're habit, when they become the only rewarding outcome or choice, (which they do) their brains physically create a real pathway for this behavior. (I've read somewhere...something to do with synapses (?))

My Doberman is just about two yrs. old and he has a ways to go in his training. He, not so long ago learned "halt," even from quite a distance. It wasn't even that well proofed or down pat when a dog was in our pasture and he was at a dead run to aggress it. I called out "halt" from about 150 ft away...and then "down." By golly, if he didn't listen and obey. Of course, we're talking Doberman here....generally a very obedient dog once trained. But it was remarkable because I didn't think this halt was that reliable yet. LOL.

And yes, they are so extraordinarily happy. I use to train with more compulsive methods. My dogs never cowered or seemed unhappy to work. They liked working and practicing a lot. I probably used mostly positive, but I did give leash jerks and a stern voice or a "no!" sometimes. But I still see a big difference. There is no holding back with dogs trained with positive methods. They are so much more drivin to get the job done.

[stirder]

a big attraction to me of positive reward training was that when I gave a leash pop or collar correction, it wasn't 100% and they never obeyed quite as fast as I wanted, or as fast as others dogs did. of course the catalyst that made me try to find something else was Kiowa (my wolf dog) wouldn't obey the corrections but would get angry. when they didnt do it fast enough or wouldnt understand I would get frustrated, even mad. I never took it out on the dog, but I know they picked up on it and got frustrated themselves. With positive/reward training their reaction seems almost instantaneous, unless you do it too long and they get tired of the treats. I dont get frustrated, they dont pick up on my frustration, and we both have a heck of a lot more fun. When they not only enjoy training but really look forward to it, they learn so much faster. Strider and Rory will go get their leashes if we are watching tv or cooking dinner, Rory hasnt gotten it yet and we arent working too hard on her yet to learn all of the commands, but Strider will decide to heel, or sit down, lay down etc begging for training. Its a lot more rewarding for me. Im sure there are a few dogs out there who dont like food much and wouldnt be as reactive to reward training, so I will keep the prong collar after I hone my reflexs with the clicker and switch over, just incase I run into one of those dogs but I would bet 99%+ dogs in the world would react a lot better to reward training.

[Manchesters]

Hey, guess what a Doberman Pinscher is everybody. They're made up of Manchester Terrier, Greyhound, Rottweiler, possibly Great Dane and possibly Weimeraner...there's a shepherd in there...I think a Teruven (what is that spelling?) Pinscher = Terrier in German. And there may be some other stuff....there's speculation of their entire history. Did I ever work with a Terrier or sighthound? LOL.

Here we go round and round. What you do not seem to be aware of is that 40 or so years ago, Dobermans were very sharp, treacherous dogs. I am sure you have heard of "the military finish" in obedience. Well, that method was developed by the Mairine Doberman Corp. Ya got an inkiling why?? Because when the Dobermans went to heel the conventional way, they would bite the crapola out of the soldier's butt. Of calves.

Most handlers of agression trained Dobes had to be prepared for the dog to whirl around and attack them when it got worked up. It has taken almost 100 years for the agression to be bred out of the Dobe. Yup, THEY SURE DID HAVE MANCHESTER IN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

[Doberluv]

As I mentioned in other posts, I researched Dobermans for about 2 years prior to getting one. I was obsessed. LOL. So, I know about their gradual development into a much more mellow dog.

[Manchesters]

I havent read all the posts. I will give my opinion though... :)
I have seen the difference between dogs trained with positive methods and those trained with forced based methods. Big difference. When I was getting my CD on my Newf's my dogs enjoyed obedience, I showed them what I wanted...I never forced them to do what I wanted. When you think of how unnatural most of the training and behavior we expect from our dogs you want them to want to default to the proper behavior. Forced based methods never work in pinch, or when you really need that recall, or down to work. When you hard wire the brain to be programmed to expecting good things to happen when a command is given the default behavior is going to be wonderful and reliable. I have watched some forced trained Golden's in obedience trials, some of these dogs slink around...they get their CD and they do what they are supposed to do...but, they are not enjoying it...and I actually watched a few bolt from the ring and the last person they would go to is their owber...almost a "I'm free, maybe some one nice will take me home" haha
Years ago I used forced based methods, I have owned Shepherds, Great Dane mix, Husky mix, Shepherd mix, Border Collie, Great Pyrenees, many many Newfoundlands, Standard Poodle, Rottweiler, a few Doberman's, Dalmatian, etc etc. for the dogs I used forced based methods thier training was never 100%. When I adopted my Rottweiler, she had too many issues to list including aggression, high prey drive which meant she would try to attack any thing that moved...she was all around a horrible dog. :) I was starting her out with force based training when a friend of mine who is an animal behaviorist caught me and raked me over the coals :) she showed me how to show my Rottie what was expected not force her...I saw a 190% change around in this dog. What could have turned into an esculated behavioral problems turned into a dog willing and wanting to please. I have even been successful at either downing her or recalling her during eye stalk motor pattern...this in itself is remarkable for this dog.
The hardest dog to take on is a crossover dog, a dog trained with forced based training...and taking over to positive training. The outcome is very rewarding and the dog becomes a happier all around dog. ;)

I ain't ever used force on any dog I trained, don't even know what the heck you are referring to. And I hate to tell you but clicker training has been around for at least 60 years that I know of. It has been tried and dismissed by the best of us years ago. Praise is much more effective....at least with the dogs I trained. Anyone ever heard of Will Judy?

I sure hope that nobody here equates a slip collar pop with force training? A correction of that type was all I ever used. Worked wonders. Of course you have to know the proper way to do it. Of course I was lucky, none of my dogs were "problem" dogs.

[Manchesters]

As I mentioned in other posts, I researched Dobermans for about 2 years prior to getting one. I was obsessed. LOL. So, I know about their gradual development into a much more mellow dog.

EVERYBODY knows about the gentling of the Doberman. My point was guess where the agression came from? At least a good portion of it!

[Doberluv]

Dobermans got that from them and from some other aggressive type breeds as well. But they also got Greyhound which tends to be very docile and some other lovely breeds. The balance and the way they've become is soooooo much better than early days for our society and most of our life styles. I think great improvements have been made in the Doberman, which cannot be said for some breeds which have deteriorated.

Yes, I have read about Manchester Terriers. Here's a part of a description:

Defensive reactions. If you need to physically chastise a terrier, and you go beyond what THEY believe is a fair correction, terriers (as a group) are more likely than other breeds to growl or snap. It may be because they were bred to become more fierce when their prey fought back, i.e. terriers are apt to "return pain" if they "receive pain." As an obedience instructor, I'm always extra careful when putting my hands on any terrier for a correction

[Manchesters]

Dobermans got that from them and from some other aggressive type breeds as well. But they also got Greyhound which tends to be very docile and some other lovely breeds. The balance and the way they've become is soooooo much better than early days for our society and most of our life styles. I think great improvements have been made in the Doberman, which cannot be said for some breeds which have deteriorated.

Yes, I have read about Manchester Terriers. Here's a part of a description:

Yeah, that might be true of Terriers, but unless the person quoted were also a breeder of Manchesters they sure have it wrong. Manchesters are NOT typical Terriers. They have their very own unique, warped personalities. Thank goodness they are not typical Terriers, or few people would have them.

I am betting that the person quoted has not personally known many Manchesters. The Manchester has never been a sparring breed. They are not supposed to be dog aggresive. They are soft, not hard as nails as Terriers are. They are their own sweet, special individuals. (In spite of my signature pictures, roflmbo.)

[stirder]

you may be right that "the best of us" dismissed clicker training years ago. maybe it doesnt work on manchesters though as I have said, I've seen everything from grizzlies to german shepherds, jack russels to canary dogs, dachshunds to tosa inus, chihuahuas to green iguanas, horses to macaws, rats to ferrets, and so on very succesfully trained using the clicker. so unless manchesters are from another planet and completely unrelated to anything on earth, clicker training should work on them.
I can easily believe the dobes got their aggression from manchesters. from what I have read they also got it from the beauceron though, which was an even more aggressive breed than the dobes used to be. it was bred for boar hunting.

[Doberluv]

I've seen everything from grizzlies to german shepherds, jack russels to canary dogs, dachshunds to tosa inus, chihuahuas to green iguanas, horses to macaws, rats to ferrets, and so on very succesfully trained using the clicker. so unless manchesters are from another planet and completely unrelated to anything on earth, clicker training should work on them.

ROFLOL!!!!!

I can easily believe the dobes got their aggression from manchesters. from what I have read they also got it from the beauceron though, which was an even more aggressive breed than the dobes used to be. it was bred for boar hunting.

Yes indeed.

[Doberluv]

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/manchesterterriers.html

There's the link I got that quote from Manchesters. LOL. They sound so much like Dobes in so many ways.....scrapy! I love that expression. And warped. LOL.

Here's what the AKC says about their temperament....not aggressive, not shy. I'm sure you've seen plenty of this, but in case someone else is interested.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/manchester_terrier/index.cfm

[Manchesters]

you may be right that "the best of us" dismissed clicker training years ago. maybe it doesnt work on manchesters though as I have said, I've seen everything from grizzlies to german shepherds, jack russels to canary dogs, dachshunds to tosa inus, chihuahuas to green iguanas, horses to macaws, rats to ferrets, and so on very succesfully trained using the clicker. so unless manchesters are from another planet and completely unrelated to anything on earth, clicker training should work on them.
I can easily believe the dobes got their aggression from manchesters. from what I have read they also got it from the beauceron though, which was an even more aggressive breed than the dobes used to be. it was bred for boar hunting.

I have no idea if clicker training would work on Manchesters. I have never trained Manchesters in anything but "activities of daily living".

To me bribing with food is ridiculous, and without purpose The greatest obedience dogs have been taught with simple praise. The results for me have been almost instant. As I mentioned in one post somewhere, I trained a totally unruly dog to the leash, and to heel in about 10 minutes time! Easy as pie.

Clicker use is just an extra unnecessary step. And bribing to me is an insult to the dog. Wasn't it Bridey who said that dogs won't work for love but they will for food? Clicker is more for lazy people who want fast results. If it works for them, very good. That is the purpose of different methods of training, so people have a large bag of tools to draw from. My dogs have always responded to the methods I have used. It has nothing to do with not wanting to change---clicker was available when I started obedience training. I evaluated its potential, and decided it was ridiculous. You cannot use it in the ring, so why on earth even bother with it? Once a dog knows what the various commands mean, then doing those exercises is a reward unto itself, as enforced by the trainer.

As I said in another post, maybe old Max mislead me by the way he responded to obedience?????? But then again, in my opinion the object is to have a joyful well trained dog, is it not?

The above is my personal opinion and not directed toward any person or individual. It IS directed toward the technique--NOT THOSE WHO USE IT.

[Doberluv]

Well, you'd have to learn about clicker training and operant and classical conditioning before inaccurate assumptions are made. You do NOT bribe. That would be a BIG mistake. You get the behavior FIRST. They need to perform first. The food is a reward.

I am sick of trying to explain this. If anyone is truly interested in learning these wonderful, successful techniques, they can learn about it. If you're only here to knock the technique, then at least get your facts about it straight first. As it has been posted with links etc, this method is used by many, many famous trainers of animal movie actors, circus animals, service dogs....the list goes on and on. To make fun of this method is just plain ridiculous. If someone can't make it work because they haven't learned how, then that's not the method that doesn't work. It's the person.

If anyone wants to train their dog using adversive methods, that's their business and I couldn't care less. If they're interested in a well documented way used all over the place, then they can learn about it. But it would be good not to misinform the unsuspecting with inaccuracies such as clicker training uses bribes. No, that's not correct.

[Manchesters]

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/manchesterterriers.html

There's the link I got that quote from Manchesters. LOL. They sound so much like Dobes in so many ways.....scrapy! I love that expression. And warped. LOL.

Here's what the AKC says about their temperament....not aggressive, not shy. I'm sure you've seen plenty of this, but in case someone else is interested.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/manchester_terrier/index.cfm

This is from the website of Wilane Manchesters......

"The Manchester Terrier is a high-spirited, very intelligent, and cunning dog which is eager to learn. Extremely lively, sporty, alert, and vigilant. It is loyal and a good friend to its master. The Manchester Terrier likes to please its handler and learns quite quickly. These dogs can be outstanding in activities like agility skills and catch and also do well in obedience trials. The Manchester Terrier should be thoroughly socialized when it is young to prevent potential aggression. He can be headstrong, protective and snappish. This breed needs thorough, firm training. Sources differ on the breed's combativeness with other dogs. Ask your breeder about this characteristic in specific lines. Manchester Terriers should not be trusted with other small non-canine animals and must be introduced to children as a young pup."

Note the use of the word SNAPPISH.

[Adrienne]

Manchester, I just don't get it! How can you say that you have well behaved dogs...quote website's that explain their eagerness to learn and please but yet your dogs nip at your heels. Personally I would find that to be quite an obnoxious behavior and not one that I would want to reward. You claim to teach your pups house manners but isn't nippping heels kinda anti-manners? It would be in my book at least. If you train your dogs so well with your techniques why haven't you been able to "nip" this one in the bud so to speak? Just curious :D

[Manchesters]

Well, you'd have to learn about clicker training and operant and classical conditioning before inaccurate assumptions are made. You do NOT bribe. That would be a BIG mistake. You get the behavior FIRST. They need to perform first. The food is a reward.

I am sick of trying to explain this. If anyone is truly interested in learning these wonderful, successful techniques, they can learn about it. If you're only here to knock the technique, then at least get your facts about it straight first. As it has been posted with links etc, this method is used by many, many famous trainers of animal movie actors, circus animals, service dogs....the list goes on and on. To make fun of this method is just plain ridiculous. If someone can't make it work because they haven't learned how, then that's not the method that doesn't work. It's the person.

If anyone wants to train their dog using adversive methods, that's their business and I couldn't care less. If they're interested in a well documented way used all over the place, then they can learn about it. But it would be good not to misinform the unsuspecting with inaccuracies such as clicker training uses bribes. No, that's not correct.

I first saw clickers used about 25 years ago. I am not making fun of anything. I simply have no use for it. And please clarify what you mean by "adversive methods". Is it possible that if "adversive methods" didn't work for you that you were doing it wrong? Maybe being too harsh and rough with the dog in question?

[Manchesters]

Manchester, I just don't get it! How can you say that you have well behaved dogs...quote website's that explain their eagerness to learn and please but yet your dogs nip at your heels. Personally I would find that to be quite an obnoxious behavior and not one that I would want to reward. You claim to teach your pups house manners but isn't nippping heels kinda anti-manners? It would be in my book at least. If you train your dogs so well with your techniques why haven't you been able to "nip" this one in the bud so to speak? Just curious :D

The info from Wilane....someone who KNOWS Manchesters personally and has bred for years. NOTE THE USE OF THE WORD SNAPPISH. Now why do you think she wrote that??????

[stirder]

Im getting tired of everyone having to place a disclaimer on a thread so this is the last time I will be saying "this isnt directed at anyone in particular" unless a post I make is mistaken, in which case I will explain myself. I think a lot of posts got misinterpretted by a lot of people on both sides. lets move on, if someone disagrees just post your disagreement and why you disagree. if anyone gets offended keep it between yourself (or myself as the case may be, hopefully wont be) and the offender, and if necassary the moderators.
that said...could you post any proof or facts that the top obedience dogs were trained with simple praise? not my only argument, but do you consider the top agility, herding and schutzhund dogs to be included in "the greatest obedience dogs"? personally I do because atleast 80% of those, more than 90% in some cases, is obedience. not just simple (not down playing these commands at all) sit, down, heel, stay commands. but high level obedience in very stressful and/or exciting (to both owner and dog) situations. for instance one of the things a handler dog team have to do in a schutzhund trial is a blind search. 6 blinds are set up, 3 on right side of field, 3 on left, directly across from each other. (for explanation purposes, say one row is on west side, one on east). the handler stands at the far south end of the field, centered between west and east (or behind a 7th blind in same position). the handler send the dog around the closest blind on west side, as it comes around the north end of this blind (after searching) it goes across the field to the southernmost east blind, comes around from the north, circles it and heads around the middle west blind from the south side, circles around the north side of it and heads across to the east side middle blind in same fassion as the first east blind, heads to the last west blind, comes around from south to north and heads to the northern most east blind where the handler is, sits down directly in front of him and starts barking untill the handler arrives. does not bite the sleeve untill directed to. I hope that makes sense, I couldnt find a diagram online and I dont have a scanner.
sounds somewhat easy to train? the dog isnt dumb and schutzhund is simulated so it knows where the agitator is (atleast 99% sure where he/she is) and wants more than anything to run straight across the field to the agitators blind and skip all the others, which are a waste of time. the dog has to be obedient enough to obey the owner/handler (who in most high level trials is not allowed to give a voice command and cannot run along side with a leash attached to a collar) just with hand signals. everytime they come around a blind they want so bad to make a bee line to the handler. seeing as no human can run as fast as a gsd or dobe oor so on, a leach correction is impossible, especially since the faster the dog goes, the better his/her score. many trainers use a clicker for training, and hand signals in trials/competitions.
okay, lets say you have taught them to obey and go around EACH blind EVERY time. now the dog reaches the agitator (for anyone not familiar with schutzhund this is the bad guy, the person wearing the bite sleeve and suit). NO schutzhund dog WANTS to wait for the handler to reach the blind, and NO schutzhund dog WANTS to wait for a direction to bite. they want to attack the sleeve and kill the he!! out of it as soon as they even SEE the sleeve, even if it is in the back of a car not on a person. since the dog is off leash, a leash is out of the question of course. clicker again.
now as hard as that is to train without a leash, there are dozens and dozens of other situations in schutzhund I could describe which require much higher levels of obedience (with an instant reaction) than in conformation trials.
I'm not saying obedience isnt very important in conformation or obedience trials, of course it is. But in schutzhund, herding or agility (way more I bet) the level of obedience is astronomical. If your dog disobeys 1 command, or even hesitates for 1 second to obey even ata dead run, you lose points. considering everything points are taken away for (in schutzhund you start with a perfect score and lose points, well you hope not to lose any but you understand) losing 1 point for a dog hesitating can mean the difference between a title and no title. disobeying a command (depends at what time the dog disobeys, I mean during which part of the trial) can mean a disqualification. and if the dog bites the sleeve before being directed to, you can be barred from any further competitions. I've seen it happen too many times, never to me though thank god.

[Adrienne]

Yes I am well aware of what snappish means. I still don't get it. Are they one of those little yippy, nippy breeds that people don't bother to take the time to train appropriatley because they are little? Any dog can be nippish and any dog can be trained NOT to nip regardless of it being a Manchester or not. Dog's are all hard-wired the same way with mostly the same motivators. Granted they change from herding group to protection group (what motivates them) etc. but any dog, even a wolf can be taught what is considered appropriate behavior by it's leader and what isn't. So why have you never bothered to attempt to stop this behavior? Is it because someone who breeds Manchesters told you they were snappish? I still don't get it. Please enlighten me! :D

[Manchesters]

Manchester, I just don't get it! How can you say that you have well behaved dogs...quote website's that explain their eagerness to learn and please but yet your dogs nip at your heels. Personally I would find that to be quite an obnoxious behavior and not one that I would want to reward. You claim to teach your pups house manners but isn't nippping heels kinda anti-manners? It would be in my book at least. If you train your dogs so well with your techniques why haven't you been able to "nip" this one in the bud so to speak? Just curious :D

This is from Tempest Manchester Terrier website....

<<Mainly, Manchesters are one family and one-person dogs. The females especially seem to attach themselves to one particular family member, whereas the males are devoted to the entire family more equally. They want to be with their people. They will not thrive as kennel dogs or as dogs shunted outside away from family activities. They want to play with you, watch you eat, sleep with you, ride in the car with you, stick close to your side while you read or watch TV, watch you shower, help you dry off. Notice that the common denominator in their interests is YOU. If you do not have the time or interest to invest in them, then the Manchester is not the dog for you. They cannot thrive without their most important ingredient in life - YOU.

Manchesters are extremely loyal and devoted. They will not just go off with anyone who pets or feeds them. They know who their people are! They know it is their job to protect you by utilizing their best watchdog function: lots of barking. They also realize that they should keep you entertained by stealing socks to hide under the bed; stealing and shredding napkins and paper towels; tugging at your pant leg when you walk across the room. And, they know you deserve a proper greeting when you return home, which includes jumping, dancing, whirling around in circles, barking, and licking. After all, you have been missed!>>

PLEASE NOTE "TUGGING AT YOUR PANT LEG WHEN YOU WALK ACROSS THE FLOOR." I know Manchester Terriers, and I have lived intimately with them. My dogs are proud, happy, healthy, well adjusted dogs with true Manchester termperment. I know what they are like, and accept them for that. Now why in Hades would I want to train out of them something that is one of their most endearing traits to those of us who know and love the breed?

You most definitely know as much as I, but you sure don't know any more than I do, and you don't know diddley about Manchesters! Anymore than I know about C.O.s

[Adrienne]

Thanks for the explanation Manchester. If you find it an endearing quality then that's great. Katya the CO also likes to steal things! She also is fond of pawing you which is a bummer when paws are as big as hers. This is something I have worked on with her and she doesn't ever do it to me anymore. She also likes to nip at your bum or your pants if she feels she should be getting more attention. Once again not something you want a 140lb dog to be doing so we worked that out as well.

As for the first part of the quote, sounds just like my GSD Gunnar. He's always by my side and always trying to hop in the shower with me, LOL. He is such a ham.

I am glad you have your Manchester's I know that dogs are good for the soul and some people tolerate "problem behaviors" and take them in stride. I only quoted problem behaviors because that is my opinion of them. With children around and having big dogs it is not something that I can tolerate real well.

We at least have one thing in common, a passion for our dogs :D

[Manchesters]

Yes I am well aware of what snappish means. I still don't get it. Are they one of those little yippy, nippy breeds that people don't bother to take the time to train appropriatley because they are little? Any dog can be nippish and any dog can be trained NOT to nip regardless of it being a Manchester or not. Dog's are all hard-wired the same way with mostly the same motivators. Granted they change from herding group to protection group (what motivates them) etc. but any dog, even a wolf can be taught what is considered appropriate behavior by it's leader and what isn't. So why have you never bothered to attempt to stop this behavior? Is it because someone who breeds Manchesters told you they were snappish? I still don't get it. Please enlighten me! :D

From what I have gleaned from your posts, lol...........but.....please ponder this.......IT IS A MANCHESTER TERRIER'S IDEA OF WHAT IS FUNNY. IT IS DONE AS A DOGGY VERSION OF A JOKE. It is something we Manny people put up with because we do not want to crush our dogs warped senses of humor. And remember, they are HUNTERS with a strong prey drive. So, we offer up our pant legs, and ankles to them. I think it is funny as heck, and so does everyone else who has Manchesters. It makes them endearing to us. I have no desire to "train it out of them". I will not kill that which makes up the very essence of the Manchester soul!!!!!!!

It is not something that just one top owner/breeder has said, it is what all breeders/owners/exhibitors say. Because that is the Manchester Terrier! And it is one of the reasons they are called Manchester TERRORS.

[Manchesters]

Here is the link for my grandson's page. http://kismet.net/fwaggle/today/indy.htm

Check out his pedigree.

[Manchesters]

More From Tempest Manchesters...
<<The Manchester puppy may be little and adorable, but he has big ideas about himself and his life with you. He is willing to be the leader and the boss. If you haven't decided to be the leader, he will simply take over! The Manchester puppy needs firm and consistent direction from you. This does not mean harsh or physical correction, but you must calmly persevere! This can be more difficult than you might think because he is such a charmer and a clown that the temptation is to let him get away with anything. But, once he realizes that he cannot change your mind, his love and respect for you will motivate him to try to accommodate you.
It is important to decide on his privileges and restrictions as a member of your household while he is young. Will he sleep in bed with you? Under the covers? That is his first choice of a sleeping spot, and that's where my eight cuties are every night. Will he be on the sofa with you? Mine are. How else can they be touching me?! Will he be allowed to soil the house because it's raining or snowing or blowing? Will he be allowed to demand food from you when you're eating? Or, better yet, just charm you out of a few morsels? Will he bark as often and as long as he wants to? Will he be allowed to ignore you when you call him? Every wise Manchester owner decides these issues before they bring a Manchester puppy home.

Your Manchester may be in the Toy group of the AKC, but he is all Terrier! He enjoys chasing mice, squirrels, birds, deer, turkeys, rabbits, moths, spiders, and bugs in general. If it moves, he will want to touch it, taste it, pounce on it. Manchesters love to run, fetch balls or frisbees, chase and be chased. It is wonderful to see how much they enjoy and experience the everyday world that we tend to take for granted. How can I be grumpy in the morning when 8 pairs of Manchester eyes see so much joy and excitement in the new day?! When he is young, be careful with his jumping from heights. He has no idea that his growing bones can be broken by leaping off a high bed or from your arms. As a loving owner, you must temper his Super Terrier attitude.>>

I guess what it amounts to is that you cannot generalize Manchester Terriers. They are in a class of their very own. If you have never known one, you (that is the editorial "you") cannot begin to know or understand them. And you will think that anyone who DOES have them is nuts, rofl. And that may be close to the truth.

[sammydawg]

Saying clicker training (or operant conditioning or learning theory) is ridiculous is like a boss saying "paying employees is ridiculous!" Why should I have to bribe my employees to come to work?"
Animals trained this way LOVE to work because they learn EXACTLY what you want them to do and how to get rewarded, with no need to jerk or poke their necks or use any other unpleasant things to "correct" them.
Ask yourself who you would work better for: a boss who rapped your hand or gave you "a pop" or some other unpleasant physical correction when you did something wrong and was less clear about what to do right and who expected you to do it just because he said "good job"?
or
Would you rather work for a boss who was able to make it very clear what you needed to do, never used physical means to reprimand you but instead gave you praise in the form of good paychecks and bonuses for good performance?
Ask yourself how you feel when someone physically corrects you. Does it motivate you to keep on trying ?

Not sure why I bother trying to explain this when so many before me have done a better job but....
It's not a question of "if " this method works or if it will work on a certain breed or certain dog. If you have any doubt, research B.F. Skinner - this isn't just about dog training - it's the science of learning.
If you don't take Doberluvs' word for it how about a world renowned behaviorist, scientist and professor at Harvard? Scroll down for an explanation of aversives.
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/skinner.html
The learning theory is not only used in dog training but also in psychology, education,etc I learned about it in Nursing school.
I can't figure out how anyone can question a method that works with anything from rats in a cage to dogs to Grizzly bears on a movie set and even humans.

[sammydawg]

Manchester-
was looking at your grandsons website-- you live in Florida but they live in Nova Scotia? Are you a former maritimer too?

[Manchesters]

Thanks for the explanation Manchester. If you find it an endearing quality then that's great. Katya the CO also likes to steal things! She also is fond of pawing you which is a bummer when paws are as big as hers. This is something I have worked on with her and she doesn't ever do it to me anymore. She also likes to nip at your bum or your pants if she feels she should be getting more attention. Once again not something you want a 140lb dog to be doing so we worked that out as well.

As for the first part of the quote, sounds just like my GSD Gunnar. He's always by my side and always trying to hop in the shower with me, LOL. He is such a ham.

I am glad you have your Manchester's I know that dogs are good for the soul and some people tolerate "problem behaviors" and take them in stride. I only quoted problem behaviors because that is my opinion of them. With children around and having big dogs it is not something that I can tolerate real well.

We at least have one thing in common, a passion for our dogs :D

Never nary a problem with my Dobermans or Whippets. But they are different animals from Toy Manchesters. The only aggravation the little demons give me is the crowding around and barking then I go out the kitchen door to the hall. They will try to herd me away from the door. Ya ever known anyone who had a Corgi? Did they ever mention the dog/dogs nipping at their heels trying to herd them? I think somehow Manchesters got crossed in with some of the English herding breeders, rofl.

None of my big dogs ever put a tooth on me. It is in the personality of some Dobes to like to mouth their owners, and many owners think it is endearing. Others won't allow it. Different strokes, and all that jazz. If you ever do meet a Manchester, I think you will be tickled by what you see and observe.

[stirder]

Manchesters, I think my post got lost in the shuffle of so many posts coming in so fast. if you missed it could you take a look at my post #40 on this thread? I'd really like to know what your thoughts are.

[Manchesters]

Saying clicker training (or operant conditioning or learning theory) is ridiculous is like a boss saying "paying employees is ridiculous!" Why should I have to bribe my employees to come to work?"
Animals trained this way LOVE to work because they learn EXACTLY what you want them to do and how to get rewarded, with no need to jerk or poke their necks or use any other unpleasant things to "correct" them.
Ask yourself who you would work better for: a boss who rapped your hand or gave you "a pop" or some other unpleasant physical correction when you did something wrong and was less clear about what to do right and who expected you to do it just because he said "good job"?
or
Would you rather work for a boss who was able to make it very clear what you needed to do, never used physical means to reprimand you but instead gave you praise in the form of good paychecks and bonuses for good performance?
Ask yourself how you feel when someone physically corrects you. Does it motivate you to keep on trying ?

Not sure why I bother trying to explain this when so many before me have done a better job but....
It's not a question of "if " this method works or if it will work on a certain breed or certain dog. If you have any doubt, research B.F. Skinner - this isn't just about dog training - it's the science of learning.
If you don't take Doberluvs' word for it how about a world renowned behaviorist, scientist and professor at Harvard? Scroll down for an explanation of aversives.
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/skinner.html
The learning theory is not only used in dog training but also in psychology, education,etc I learned about it in Nursing school.
I can't figure out how anyone can question a method that works with anything from rats in a cage to dogs to Grizzly bears on a movie set and even humans.

Rats and Grizzlies are not as intelligent as dogs. They respond to conditioning. Many breeds of dogs are able to actually THINK. They can be trained very well without food.

I have asked several times in several posts....and I repeat....WHERE DOES ANYONE GET THIS CRAPALA ABOUT JERKING DOGS AROUND?

Have you NEVER seen a proper collar correction given? There is no jerking of anything. There is a lightning quick pull and release of the leash to "pop" the collar. There is no pressure on the dog's neck no movement even of the neck or head.

And just how do the animals in question--whatever they be LEARN the desired behavior? Do you show them a video, or sit and conjure up a mental image of what position you want them to adopt?

Have you ever used a leash and collar, and "popped it"? Try it on your arm some time, and if done correctly you will experience no discomfort. Oh, and how do you POKE a dog in the neck? And yes, I know about waving a piece of food over a dog's nose to get it to sit, and bringing the food down to the ground to get it to lay down.

And one other really annoying factoid......if you click a clicker around a Manchester that has been trained for conformation, they will go totally spastic, rofl. You will have your Manny looking you right in the eye in mid-air, lol. Sounds like that turn them on...brings out the rat killing urges in them.

Anyway...to narrow down....how to you SHOW the dogs what you want without using food? And what makes you gave you your misimpression (if there is such a word) about the use of the slip collar?

[Manchesters]

Im getting tired of everyone having to place a disclaimer on a thread so this is the last time I will be saying "this isnt directed at anyone in particular" unless a post I make is mistaken, in which case I will explain myself. I think a lot of posts got misinterpretted by a lot of people on both sides. lets move on, if someone disagrees just post your disagreement and why you disagree. if anyone gets offended keep it between yourself (or myself as the case may be, hopefully wont be) and the offender, and if necassary the moderators.
that said...could you post any proof or facts that the top obedience dogs were trained with simple praise? not my only argument, but do you consider the top agility, herding and schutzhund dogs to be included in "the greatest obedience dogs"? personally I do because atleast 80% of those, more than 90% in some cases, is obedience. not just simple (not down playing these commands at all) sit, down, heel, stay commands. but high level obedience in very stressful and/or exciting (to both owner and dog) situations. for instance one of the things a handler dog team have to do in a schutzhund trial is a blind search. 6 blinds are set up, 3 on right side of field, 3 on left, directly across from each other. (for explanation purposes, say one row is on west side, one on east). the handler stands at the far south end of the field, centered between west and east (or behind a 7th blind in same position). the handler send the dog around the closest blind on west side, as it comes around the north end of this blind (after searching) it goes across the field to the southernmost east blind, comes around from the north, circles it and heads around the middle west blind from the south side, circles around the north side of it and heads across to the east side middle blind in same fassion as the first east blind, heads to the last west blind, comes around from south to north and heads to the northern most east blind where the handler is, sits down directly in front of him and starts barking untill the handler arrives. does not bite the sleeve untill directed to. I hope that makes sense, I couldnt find a diagram online and I dont have a scanner.
sounds somewhat easy to train? the dog isnt dumb and schutzhund is simulated so it knows where the agitator is (atleast 99% sure where he/she is) and wants more than anything to run straight across the field to the agitators blind and skip all the others, which are a waste of time. the dog has to be obedient enough to obey the owner/handler (who in most high level trials is not allowed to give a voice command and cannot run along side with a leash attached to a collar) just with hand signals. everytime they come around a blind they want so bad to make a bee line to the handler. seeing as no human can run as fast as a gsd or dobe oor so on, a leach correction is impossible, especially since the faster the dog goes, the better his/her score. many trainers use a clicker for training, and hand signals in trials/competitions.
okay, lets say you have taught them to obey and go around EACH blind EVERY time. now the dog reaches the agitator (for anyone not familiar with schutzhund this is the bad guy, the person wearing the bite sleeve and suit). NO schutzhund dog WANTS to wait for the handler to reach the blind, and NO schutzhund dog WANTS to wait for a direction to bite. they want to attack the sleeve and kill the he!! out of it as soon as they even SEE the sleeve, even if it is in the back of a car not on a person. since the dog is off leash, a leash is out of the question of course. clicker again.
now as hard as that is to train without a leash, there are dozens and dozens of other situations in schutzhund I could describe which require much higher levels of obedience (with an instant reaction) than in conformation trials.
I'm not saying obedience isnt very important in conformation or obedience trials, of course it is. But in schutzhund, herding or agility (way more I bet) the level of obedience is astronomical. If your dog disobeys 1 command, or even hesitates for 1 second to obey even ata dead run, you lose points. considering everything points are taken away for (in schutzhund you start with a perfect score and lose points, well you hope not to lose any but you understand) losing 1 point for a dog hesitating can mean the difference between a title and no title. disobeying a command (depends at what time the dog disobeys, I mean during which part of the trial) can mean a disqualification. and if the dog bites the sleeve before being directed to, you can be barred from any further competitions. I've seen it happen too many times, never to me though thank god.

The dogs to whom I referred go back 20 years ago.

Obedience is pretty much obedience, as far as "basic" obedience. The work involved in getting a TD degree or UD degree in the preparatory step to Schutzhund. I was taught obedience by a fellow who had several Schutzhund dogs. I read all I could find on the subject (obedience)....Will Judy's books, Koehler (sp), and was coached by Lew Burke, who trained for Columbia Pictures. One of his dogs appeared in Subways Are For Sleeping.

AKC obedience judges can be very heavy handed with their scoring. Max had every right to be proud of his scores!

As far as distance training most I knew used hand signals. But I was never around anyone training for Shutzhund.

[Renee750il]

There are countless ways that different creatures - two or four legged learn, and countless ways to take advantage of that to make learning and teaching easier. I really do wish CreatureTeacher hadn't had to take a leave for awhile. If those of you who have been here for awhile will remember, one of the first things she looks for is WHY an animal might be acting in a certain way; what's causing the behaviour. Motive is always the key; it just takes some patience and observation, but once you've got that key it's all easier.

Some of you know my "training" methods are a bit on the unorthodox side. I do give my best effort to parsing out what the motives might be, but I really do sit down and talk to mine. I've done it since I could talk. And it works for me - like a charm; much better, actually, than conditioning ever has. But that's just me and the creatures who have found their way into my life - not just dogs - it works well for me with cats too! But that's just not going to work for everyone or every dog, so a myriad of plausible techniques is undoubtedly the best of all possible worlds.

[stirder]

its actually been just short of proven that grizzlies are almost as intelligent as chimps and gorrilas

[Manchesters]

Well, you'd have to learn about clicker training and operant and classical conditioning before inaccurate assumptions are made. You do NOT bribe. That would be a BIG mistake. You get the behavior FIRST. They need to perform first. The food is a reward.

I am sick of trying to explain this. If anyone is truly interested in learning these wonderful, successful techniques, they can learn about it. If you're only here to knock the technique, then at least get your facts about it straight first. As it has been posted with links etc, this method is used by many, many famous trainers of animal movie actors, circus animals, service dogs....the list goes on and on. To make fun of this method is just plain ridiculous. If someone can't make it work because they haven't learned how, then that's not the method that doesn't work. It's the person.

If anyone wants to train their dog using adversive methods, that's their business and I couldn't care less. If they're interested in a well documented way used all over the place, then they can learn about it. But it would be good not to misinform the unsuspecting with inaccuracies such as clicker training uses bribes. No, that's not correct.

As I said in another post, how do you get the dog to do the behavior first and perform before a reward? Flash them mental images of what you want?

I am pooped out! Too much thinking for one day.

[Manchesters]

Got an email notification that you had responded to my post with Indy's website, but when I click, it won't take me there, soooooooo...

Nope, never been to N.S. Indy is out of a b!tch I bred...Ch. Lou Gin's Sophie Tucker. My friend Terry Eken owns her. She let Jim Burrows, who owns Indy's dad breed to Sophie. The Kelly's wanted a puppy out of the breeding. So they bought Indy. They were the breeder's of Jake, Indy's dad. If you have ever seen the Toy Manchester Terrier at Westminst for about the last 5 years, it was Jake, Indy's daddy.

I am native to New York, and then moved down here to Florida with my folks in 1976. They have both died, and my step mother died two years ago, so here I is with just the dogs!

[Babyblue5290]

I am native to New York, and then moved down here to Florida with my folks in 1976. They have both died, and my step mother died two years ago, so here I is with just the dogs!

So you lived only in two places your whole life? That's neat. :)
oh and it's "...so here I am with just the dogs" not is lol ;) Anyways, have a good day :)

[Manchesters]

So you lived only in two places your whole life? That's neat. :)
oh and it's "...so here I am with just the dogs" not is lol ;) Anyways, have a good day :)

I said IS on purpose just like I often used "ain't" once in a while. I am from the old method of teaching English and grammar. The joys of diagramming sentences. I was trying to imitate a Redneck way of talking.

You have a great night also.

[opokki]

how do you get the dog to do the behavior first and perform before a reward

One way would be to wait for the dog to perform the behavior and then click, repeat several times and add a cue. You could aslo use luring which you don't neccessarily need food for.

A clicker is just a marker. I don't think there are any rules in clicker training stating that food MUST be used. A friend of mine clicker trained her yorkie using praise only (click & praise rather than click & treat).

[bridey_01]

Ok, this bit is easy! The very first thing you do is teach your dog to target. Targeting is when the dog automatically touches his nose to your hand. This is easy to teach, you just cuddle your hand, talk to it, then flourish it at the dogs level and he will almost certainly touch it with his nose. As soon as you feel that nose on your hand, click and treat (having already primed the clicker). DO this many times a day and you will have a dog that will follow that hand into any position, sit, down, stand, spin, weave, jump. It is also useful to bring a dog away from distractions.

[Doberluv]

its actually been just short of proven that grizzlies are almost as intelligent as chimps and gorrilas

Yes Strider! I have been fascinated with bears because for one, I live in the midst of one of the last pristine, undisturbed wilderness areas of the United States, the extreme north panhandle of Idaho. I love the wilderness and that is why I live here. I am in Grizzly territory, black bears, elk, moose, deer, wolves (a little further north from me) and all kinds of wildlife. Occasionally I see a black bear right in my yard. Deer are a common sight, nearly every day down in the pasture. They won't come into the yard because they know there are dogs here. Anyhow, the balance of nature is still intact here and it's a beautifully unique ecosystem.There's a ranger station close by with all kinds of literature to read. There are 400 miles of trails for hiking, snowmobiling, cross country skiing etc. There are a lot of old timers, forest rangers to chat with at the local hangouts.... and lots of stories which are fun to hear.

Because of my extreme interest in my enviornment here, I have spent a little time reading about studies done on wolves and bears as well as some of the other wild life here. And yes, what you wrote caught my eye because they ARE indeed finding out that bears are highly intelligent. And you know what? I observe them when I can and they know when it's safe to come in my yard. They learn when I leave in my car, they're safe to snoop around because I can be home all day, even if I'm inside the whole time and then leave with my car and my neighbor said no sooner had I left with my car, he saw the bear trying to figure out how to open my garage door, sniffing, bending down, using his paw and nose. I try not to accumulate more than one or two kitchen bags of garbage before I take it to the dump. I'm very careful about leaving anything outside. It's also interesting that they come around at all, considering there is enough to eat most of the time. But late in the summer when the berries are through and food is getting scarce, they'll tend to come closer. They also need to come down out of the hills to get water.

Anyhow, to change back to the topic. I loved reading your post about Schutzhund training. Yes, there is no way I can see that one could train using anything else. The description was very interesting.

I see what you mean too with agility because I do that with Lyric. He's way out in front of me...no leash. And while some may not consider a leash pop adversive, because of course, it doesn't cause great pain, it is still NOTa reward so it goes against the learning theory of BF Skinner and the rest of them.

Opokki....good posts.

And Bridey, that's a great description of targeting...such a cool thing! I always like your posts.

Sammydog, super post. Thanks for all your great points. I'm running out of energy. Take it from here, will you?! LOL!

Another thing I do to teach the bow is everytime I see the dog stretch with his bum up in the air, I praise and reward. If he doesn't stretch that often, I also move a treat down slowly in front of him but sort of close so he doesn't think he's suppose to lie down. He'll start to go down with his rear up and quickly...before he messes up that position, I click and then treat. It is best to get the behavior first and then add a command so it's not so confusing. Like....if you're teaching sit, you hold the treat up and back a little, over their head (not too high) and they just roll back into a sit. You click the second that bum hits the ground and then treat. When the dog is understanding this hand signal which becomes learned automatically by doing this with the treat, you then add the command, "sit." You do that with everything. It helps them learn. And the best thing is they figure out what you mean on their own.....by thinking instead of being pushed down into a sit by pressing on their rears.

Anyhow, these words I write are there just on the rare chance that someone might be interested in even just a paragraph or two or may want to try one idea or two...no other reason.

[Manchesters]

Ok, this bit is easy! The very first thing you do is teach your dog to target. Targeting is when the dog automatically touches his nose to your hand. This is easy to teach, you just cuddle your hand, talk to it, then flourish it at the dogs level and he will almost certainly touch it with his nose. As soon as you feel that nose on your hand, click and treat (having already primed the clicker). DO this many times a day and you will have a dog that will follow that hand into any position, sit, down, stand, spin, weave, jump. It is also useful to bring a dog away from distractions.

I just had about 7 of the girls come over and held out my hand and told them to touch it. They all did, one by one. Then I moved my hand around, and they did as you said. This was instantaneous. Of course the majority of my dogs were trained for conformation, where you do the same thing. Some use bait. I never believed in it, and a lot of judges got really ticked if people brought food into the ring. It is called "Baiting". I have been doing that with some for years. Some dogs you can almost get them to stand on their ears and twirl around, rofl. I also talked to them most of the time also.

Guess we are not so far apart. Just can't see the need for the clicker. How do you train a dog to heel, and such. And is the clicker just really an unnecessary step?

I may be about to pass out asleep, in case you think I have died---I will have, but not permanently.

[bridey_01]

The clicker is useful as a marker, seeing as it is quite different from a human voice, and when conditioned properly dogs will literally eat their leg off to get you to click. This in no way means you need to use the clicker, I only use it when I am first teaching a complicated behaviour, and then to refine it. Then I use it rarely. Also, it is very rare that I reward any behaviours, my dogs have been doing them for so long and it has always been beneficial for them, so now it is almost hardwired for them to do what I ask, lol. Once a behaviour has been learned and put on cue (named) you can cut down the rewards to nearly never, you just have to maintain it randomly.

[Old Dog]

All "animal actors" so to speak are clicker trained.......they've used it for years.......they are doing "tricks" with their trainer far off so how else would you suggest they get them to do what they are supposed to do when you can't be up close and personal this includes "Flipper" and you know how long ago Flipper was on TV.....clicker training is a proven method for getting animals to do specific behavior...........its called conditioned response........it could be a bell,dog whistle whatever.........no one says it doesn't work, it just has its specific purpose in training....... Have any of you ever seen a happy working obedience dog ......there is such a thing..when you use traditional training properly and that is not by intimidating the dog or punishing the dog when he does not do it right. A good trainer would never suggest such a thing....Unfortunately there alot of improperly trained dog trainers around usually self taught or worse K-9 trainers as they call themselves if you are lucky they might have read a book or been through one obedience class or the classic they worked with dogs when they were in the service. Each to his own in his or her method of training, just cruel and mean does not have any place in any kind of training be it traditional or whatever..........I have read these threads and this is like beating a dead horse so to speak.......whats the point.......No one says"clicker" training doesn't work its just some people prefer to do it other ways.........thats what makes us individuals.......and because some people like traditional training methods does not mean they are all cruel,mean and intimidating to their dogs in training them that is not how traditional obedience training works. The example of "tradional" with the piano if they were refering to traditional obed. that is not the way it is done. How stupid to think you just tell a dog to do something if he has no idea what you are talking about that is pure stupidity .........

[bridey_01]

Heeling is quite easy, and you also use targeting to teach it. You start off with the dog on your left in a sit. You make your hand super interesting (if you havnt taught targeting yet) then quickly take a step whilst the dog investigates your hand. You click and treat as he stay with you for one or two steps, then get him back into a sit. Some people start off with food in the left hand, this is fine also. As you progress you move the hand higher and higher up until it is resting on your hip. He will still follow. For turns we always click and treat ON the turn, as a result we have velcro dogs with super tight turns. Eventually there is one reward for about ten minutes of heeling (we always choose his best turns or closest heeling for that one reward, just to refine it).

[Manchesters]

Heeling is quite easy, and you also use targeting to teach it. You start off with the dog on your left in a sit. You make your hand super interesting (if you havnt taught targeting yet) then quickly take a step whilst the dog investigates your hand. You click and treat as he stay with you for one or two steps, then get him back into a sit. Some people start off with food in the left hand, this is fine also. As you progress you move the hand higher and higher up until it is resting on your hip. He will still follow. For turns we always click and treat ON the turn, as a result we have velcro dogs with super tight turns. Eventually there is one reward for about ten minutes of heeling (we always choose his best turns or closest heeling for that one reward, just to refine it).

Always step off on the left leg first. The dog only needs to be targeted to your left leg. What is with the hand on the hip? I still say that the food and clicker are simply unnecessary. My dogs have always followed me when I walked. The only thing needed was to show them what range they had when walking next to me. Namely, do NOT get ahead of that left leg, lol.

Now with Toy Manchesters that would be rather challenging. I used to be pretty nimble on me feets, but it would be easy to get totally tangled up with a little Manchester looking down at you laying on the ground after it tangled your feet together.

[bridey_01]

The hand is what the dog is targeting. You start it close to him to maintain his attention, then gradually move it upwards before fazing it out alltogether. Of course you step off on the left firsts, dogs recognise the difference between heeling ans staying this way. The food is used (I would think quite obviously) to show the dog where he is meant to be without the use of a leash or check collar. Any point that is not satisfactory (too far ahead or lagging behind) is simply not rewarded. The dog learns pretty fast that only nice tight heeling works for him.

[bridey_01]

I still say that the food and clicker are simply unnecessary. .
I would counter that the leash and the check chain are completely unecessary, that is assuming you are using corrections to "show" the dog where he is meant to be?

[stirder]

one major reason I feel the food is not necassary is that when i trained with prong/pinch collars (actually for corrections, not now where I use them for only the sound because I just cant click as fast) the dogs looked forward atleast 90% of the time. now that I use the collar for sound marker (the chain jingles, trying to get more used to the clicker) and food as a reward, the dogs are looking at my face atleast 90% of the time.
and food is not banned in conformation rings, may well have been at one time but the last few times I watched westminster and crufts (not to mention many others) on tv I'd say 3 out of 4 trainers had a clicker in one hand, and treats in a chest pocket.

[bridey_01]

I never use food in the (training) ring, and as far as I know corrections are banned as well.

[stirder]

I havnt either but my training ring is schutzhund, and food and corrections are not banned but the way the trials are set up, there is very little downtime DURING a section only in between them. during the protection phase there is no opportunity to offer either, during tracking you may only praise the dog and again...no time to give food, during obedience phase...some might have the time but I didnt feel I did. and wouldnt offer food reward anyway because I'd lose points. the sch III obedience trial is fairly complicated and is only allowed to be done OFF-LEASH! so obviously corrections are impossible.
does anyone have a scanner AND the book, schutzhund: theory and training methods?? maybe I can take a digital pic of the diagram and them post it here?

[casablanca1]

Targeting is when the dog automatically touches his nose to your hand. This is easy to teach, you just cuddle your hand, talk to it, then flourish it at the dogs level and he will almost certainly touch it with his nose. As soon as you feel that nose on your hand, click and treat (having already primed the clicker). DO this many times a day and you will have a dog that will follow that hand into any position, sit, down, stand, spin, weave, jump. It is also useful to bring a dog away from distractions.

Son of a bi... I've been doing that for years. Not the first part (I may look mental, but I'm not cuddling my own hand, thank you) but using my hands like a conducter uses a baton or a magician uses a wand. I think my dogs always hope lunchmeat will fall from my fingers, because they're all extremely responsive to hand motions, even though I'm not actually touching them.

[Renee750il]

First, thanks to Ol Dog for the post (http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showpost.php?p=106668&postcount=64)

Now,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchesters
I still say that the food and clicker are simply unnecessary. . (unquote)

BRIDEY: I would counter that the leash and the check chain are completely unecessary, that is assuming you are using corrections to "show" the dog where he is meant to be?


Different dogs respond to different methods. If I tried a clicker with my bunch, they'd look at me like I'd lost my mind - I've talked to them since day one and that's what they respond to - maybe it's a breed/type personality trait. Food is a lost cause with Shiva because there is nothing else in the world but that food at that moment. She's so focused that it is actually a good measure for me to see how far she's come. The more closely she will listen to me and do as I ask even though there is some evidence of food tells me how much more mature she is getting. And affection really is the best reward for Shiva - she craves it and food isn't a good reward because she just views food as something that is inevitably hers anyway :rolleyes: For Bimmer and Kharma, a good word and affection are everything. For those two, an assurance of a job well done is the best possible goad.

When we're filming commercials with Shiva I just run through what I want her to do a couple of times, then stand behind the camera man and give her an occasional hand signal or reassuring eye contact. Being the center of attention is the perfect reward for The Diva, lol!

[bridey_01]

Yes, dogs are much more responsive to hand signals than they are to voices. They are just naturally that way, I've known dogs that can pick up all kinds of tricks with barely any movement of my hands. That's how I train for entertainments sake, like at childrens parties.

[stirder]

these didnt turn out perfect, but with a description accompanying each photo I think you will get the idea...
tracking phase...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/angel_perrer/100_0620.jpg
the top is sch III tracking, the bottom is FH. for the sch III the track is laid down at least 50 minutes before the dog starts tracking, it is 800 to 1,000 paces long with 4 turns and 3 articles to locate. track begins at the triangle, X is an article. for the FH a dog has to be 16 months old with a sch I title or a traffic proof companion dog title. FH is the most difficult of the sch tracking tests. it is always laid by a stranger, atleast 1,000 paces long and atleast 3 hours old. has a minimum of 6 turns, is crossed atleast 3 times by another stranger, also has changes in terrain such as elevation, vegetation, and dirt roads cutting across the track. only a long line is allowed and must be kept loose, but off lead is also allowed.
protection phase...(described earlier in this thread...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/angel_perrer/100_0619.jpg

obedience phase...(also described earlier)...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/angel_perrer/100_0618.jpg
begin at the black triangle, go 50 paces at normal speed, left about turn at the circle, 10 paces at normal speed, 10 fast paces, 5 normal, 10 slow, 10 normal, left about turn at circle, sit at X in box, left about turn at circle, sit at X in box. all off leash with no corrections. food rewards and corrections during any phase of sch III trial result in deduction of points.

[Doberluv]

Wow, that's cool Strider.

Yes Old dog...good post.

Bridey....I agree...dogs are much better able to understand hand signals and body language since body language is how they do most of their communicating between themselves. They do use vocal communication too, but not nearly to the extent of body language. So, that is one reason I think that skipping the vocal command when first training a new skill and relying on showing or luring them with your hand or arm or whatever until they are displaying the behavior you want and then connecting it up with a verbal command works well with less confusion. It seems to definitely speed up learning of a particular skill.

[stirder]

I totally agree. hand signals, luring etc are vital. it speeds up the learning process and if they are doing good, you get happy, you get happy they get happy and learning becomes fun. no matter how smart a dog is, the less fun it is to learn, the less the dog wants to learn.

[Manchesters]

I would counter that the leash and the check chain are completely unecessary, that is assuming you are using corrections to "show" the dog where he is meant to be?

Actually I would move my large butt to where I should be in relation to the dog, and off we would go. If he moved ahead or lagged behind then I would give a "pop" correction.

The Whippets and Manchesters have not been taught the sit, down etc because there was no need for it, and although I would train a dog in a heart beat for the joy of it, and to help build the dog's self esteem, every since the heart surgery I just have not had the intestinal fortitude to do so.

The last dog I obedience trained was my Dobe puppy Kila. And that was ages ago!

With show training, you teach them to stand for examination properly (some dogs will drive you nuts doing the "cha cha cha" with one of their feet, while you are hoping the judge isn't looking at that moment, lol. You teach them to bait, and to gait on a loose lead hopefully a bit out in front of you, so they show spirit.

I have taught some of the Manchesters to "Say How-Do-You-Do", so I could give them tons of praise, and variations on that like "Slap Me Five". And several others have taught themselves to shake hands and will hop up on my hassock and sit there waving their foot till I shake hands. Guess you could say THOSE dogs have taught ME to shake hands, rofl.

NOW...if I were working on the STAY command and the dog moved, I would take the lead and take it back to the exact same spot. BUT----when I taught the stay, I started by standing only about a foot in front of the dog, and if it started to move, I would tell it NO before it could move. After a really short time I would have a dog that I could tell to sit or down stay, back out about 20 feet from and tug on the leash, and the dog would not MOVE until given the release. Than of course I would convince the dog that it was smartest in the entire galaxy, etc.

[Rose's Gal]

I liked your analogy Rose'sgal, but I think I have to agree with Bridey on this one. I find that when training obedience and agility skills, I don't need to use anything like that....leash pops and other corrections. The dogs do great and have a lot more fun when it's motivation and reward, luring, not forcing. Just more fun for me too. They seem to get smarter too because they have to make a choice in order to get the reward. And the choice isn't based on avoidance of a leash pop. If they're forced into something, they too do not choose. They don't use their heads as well. And they will make the choice we want them to if we're creative and a little ahead of them...making them think it's their idea. With Dobemans, you almost have to train that way because they're so darn clever and creative themselves. LOL.
Hmm...I never thought of it that way. lol I think really the only reason I use a Choke Chain on Blackie is he can slip out of any other type of collar, and it gives me control over him. I will also give him a leash pop to get him to leave something alone that is on the ground (because he doesn't respones well to the leave it command...especially if the thing he wants is really tasty. lol) and I also use it with his dog aggression, since it isn't plasiuble for me to carry a treat with me 24/7 incase we encounter a dog. So then when he starts acting up, I'll correct him, and as soon as he looks away from the dog, I praise him and act all happy. And this has worked wonders.
I don't use a CC with Rose, and she is just "fine" (kinda). But her lack of listening is my fault, I don't work with her as much as I should because she is already a fairly well behaved dog, and if she is doing something I don't like, I can just say, "Hey!" and clap my hands and she'll stop. So, to sum it all up, I'm lazy when it comes to her. But I do have a feeling that if I actually worked with her like I do with Blackie, she'd be so good. Because with as little as I do work with her, she is very good. But she does have the attitude of "if I don't see something in it for me, I'm not going to do it" which is different than Blackie's "I'm going to do it because it makes you happy" attitude.

But, you can't really say that a dog that is worked with a Choke Chain isn't going to be as trainable, because Police dogs are trained wtih Choke Chains, and those have got to be the smartest dogs I've ever seen.

(And I'm sooooooooo sorry if that was off topic...I didn't read any of the posts. lol :cool: )