Biting And Positive Reinforcement

[Manchesters]

I had a thought a little bit ago that kind of made me chuckle......how many times do postive reinforcement people let their dogs bite and ignore it? And what do you do to reward your dogs for NOT biting?

I am from the old school, where if a dog attempted to bite a human agressively we would wipe the floor up with it. The dog only got one chance to screw up.

[Adrienne]

My problem with "wipeing the floor with my dog" is that I am not a dog, nor can I pretend to be one. My dog's know that I am not a dog and when I attempt to mimic their language or behavior I find more often than not that I just confuse the heck out of them. When Gunnar was going through his biting stage we did the UHUHUH sound, and replaced said hand or other body part with an accetable alternative. If he persisted we would place him in a timeout away from us for a few minutes. If that still didn't work then I took him outside and we played ball or tug. Anything to get his mind off of the idea that biting me was fun. I just found something that was more fun for him. He stopped biting by three months of age, although on occasion he still likes to mouth me (gently) which I find is more of an affectionate thing than an aggressive or dominate thing.

Katya's breeder suggest's that if a CO bites someone or another dog that you hit them over the head with the end of a broom (the side with the bristles). Not hard but apparently the sound of the whoosh scares the bejeezes out of them. I persoanly haven't tried this but if she were to bite someone again she would need to be corrected more firmly. I just try to never let her be in a situation where she feels the need to bite. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in my opinion.

[Doberluv]

(sorry...this is freeeeeekin long. I can't seem to write anything without rambling. It must be my old age. LOL)

Manchesters, I told ya.....I luv ya, ya crack me up sometimes, you're smart and entertaining. I respect so many things you've talked about as far as training. BUT... (you knew that BUT was coming)You're not that much older than I am. If I can do it, you can do it. Step out of the old school and into the future. Positive reinforcement works.

You don't have to punish a dog to make a behavior go away. You have only to remove what it is he likes about biting or jumping or whatever the case may be. And give an alternative behavior. My dogs are quite well behaved and Lyric is getting pretty advanced in his obedience. (has a long way to go, but nevertheless, pretty darn good)He catches onto agility quickly, learns the names of everything and I've only used motivation and reward for teaching him things. I never ever tell him "no" when doing agility. I want him to be super enthusiastic and drivin....keeps his speed up. If he messes up, lots of times it's my fault. Other times, we just go back and start over. He makes progress still.

How many activities do you partake in and keep partaking in that have absolutely nothing good to offer, not one thing of benefit to you? If someone has a job they go to every day, they keep going so they can get a paycheck. They need that paycheck. If the paychecks stopped, they probably would stop going to that job. No one had to mop a floor with them (LOL) or pinch, hit, yell. They only removed the paycheck. So that person stopped going to that job. That behavior ceased. If that person were to have been mopped with, pinched, yelled at or jerked around, they would have left the job too, but with a much worse feeling about bosses, a distrust, a lack of respect. They would not be inclined to go rushing out to find a new job for fear of something like that happening again. But the person who merely had their paycheck withdrawn would be thinking, "I want a paycheck, I want money." They would be more inclined to go find a job in a hurry. LOL. One can say people are not the same as dogs. That is true. There are differences. However, learning behavior is very similar among mammals and the motivation/reward system holds true across the board. You can look through scientific behavioral studies from Pavlov onward. It's really nothing new and I'm sure you are well aware of it all. But maybe it seems easier to just scold and punish. But it's really not.

I somehow think you're exaggerating and I bet you don't really mop your floor with your dogs. LOL If we're going to play "alpha" to our dogs, then we need to act like an alpha and that is not harsh. Alpha wolves only need to walk around looking like Clint Eastwood. They do not have to do a whole lot of flailing around and that makes our dogs think we're out of control and silly. Punishment is Ok if it's not too harsh, but I notice that my dogs listen to me better, and trust me better than dogs in the past which I used more punishment/correction type teaching. I do use some corrections, but basically, I do use motivation and reward type training. It's fun, there's no fear or wondering what's going to happen next from the dog. They work better for reward than they do to avoid punishment. That is what I have noticed. I've trained both ways.

When my dogs were pups (and I've had my share of pups) if they were gnawing on me, I'd quit playing with them. I'd walk away and ignore them. Weah, weah, weah....that's no fun. When doggie wasn't biting for even a few seconds, I'd turn on the big attention and maybe a treat, give a chew toy. The second the teeth dug into my skin....I'm up abruptly and turning away from puppy...not a look, word, touch....nothing. I'd then give the dog a wonderful chew toy which helped teething pain and then praise and make a fuss when he chewed on that. Show the pup what you want and reward for that. Show that you control his resources. That's what makes a good leader. It didn't take my pups more than a few weeks to phase out this behavior.

If the dog is following you and biting your ankles in spite of your ignoring, then he must still be getting some payoff....the feel of your skin on his teeth. Yum, yum. So, you have to remove your skin from the dog. You either lock yourself in the bathroom for one or two minutes or put the dog in the crate for a time out.....not in anger, not as a punishment or he'll hate his crate. But to be seperated from you is the loss of the ultimate reward. You show him you won't play with him when he bites and that when he stops biting, you show him how much you like to play with him.

Later on, when he's gotten this "keep the teeth off me," you can go back and teach bite inhibition whereby you put your hand in his mouth and let him mouth you, but you let him know when it hurts, "OUCH!!!!" When he's gentle, you praise. Some trainers teach that as they go along. I get the dog to understand no biting first and then go back to it. I think it's important that a dog learns that when and if he has his teeth on someone, it mustn't be hard. He needs to learn to have a soft mouth when necessary.

My Doberman plays around, mouthing my hands a lot when I allow it. He's gentle as a lamb. He mouths and plays with the Chihuahuas gently. He understood this quite early on in his puppyhood. I didn't have to use any adversive actions.

[Manchesters]

I am afraid that in this instance I mean literally wiping up the floor. Not pretending to be a dog at all---acting as pack leader. I only had to do it once with one dog. I got her by both sides of her head, picked her up on her hind legs, and shook the hell out of her. We are talking a Dobe here.

Most feel that biting is a good reason to give a dog the death penalty. Some feel that this is the one time that whatever it takes is fair treatment. I am in complete agreement with your breeder, rofl. Perhaps you could buy one of those small whisk brooms to take with you when you walk her? Actually though since the knucklehead has already bitten twice, I would just get one of those pretty plastic basket type muzzles for her to wear when in public. I like the idea of it because then you can let her try to bite, and give you the chance to unload on her without anyone getting hurt! Hhhmmmm, might have possibilties maybe?? The muzzles are easy to find from any Greyhound supply place, and only cost about $7.95 plus shipping.

Might give you peace of mind while you have her out in society. But again, I am still half asleep, lol. Trying to find the courage to put the beasts up and go to Walmart. It has rained like crazy here most of the day. Ain't nothing quite like a Florida downpour where you can't see three feet away. It is a good thing this state is all sand! And then there was the thunder and lightning. In fact, it is only 79 degrees outside! 20 less than it would be if it weren't so cloudy.

Years back when I had more dogs, my male Dobe, and both male Whippets wore the plastic kennel muzzles---just to be on the safe side. They had no objections to putting the things on, and I had the peace of mind that nobody would try to start a bloodbath. They are big at the basket section, and the dog can open its mouth wide to pant, and they have no trouble drinking. My one boy Chuck can even get pieces of pizza crust off the ground when I thow it out to them, lol.

[Doberluv]

I am afraid that in this instance I mean literally wiping up the floor. Not pretending to be a dog at all---acting as pack leader. I only had to do it once with one dog. I got her by both sides of her head, picked her up on her hind legs, and shook the hell out of her. We are talking a Dobe here.

If you feel so inclined, could you find me something (don't go to too much trouble. You should be able to find something in just a few minutes) where it describes wild dogs or wolf pack leaders doing things like you describe? Taking hold of the puppies sides of the head and shaking the hell out of them? Everything I've learned about wolf/dog behavior describes a very different atmosphere and scenario among the wolves and their pack leaders.

In either case, I am my dogs' leader. I have no trouble with them minding me and behaving themselves. But I don't have to do stuff like that. They already know that I provide for them and if they want to live, they better behave. LOL.

Most feel that biting is a good reason to give a dog the death penalty

Are we talking puppy biting here or an older dog acting aggressively? In either case, I don't personally believe in mistreating an animal. There are other ways of modifying and stopping behaviors. Firmness, insistance on compliance is one thing, but frightening and physically hurting an animal....I have to disagree with. Sorry, I can't help myself.

[Manchesters]

(sorry...this is freeeeeekin long. I can't seem to write anything without rambling. It must be my old age. LOL)

Manchesters, I told ya.....I luv ya, ya crack me up sometimes, you're smart and entertaining. I respect so many things you've talked about as far as training. BUT... (you knew that BUT was coming)You're not that much older than I am. If I can do it, you can do it. Step out of the old school and into the future. Positive reinforcement works.

You don't have to punish a dog to make a behavior go away. You have only to remove what it is he likes about biting or jumping or whatever the case may be. And give an alternative behavior. My dogs are quite well behaved and Lyric is getting pretty advanced in his obedience. (has a long way to go, but nevertheless, pretty darn good)He catches onto agility quickly, learns the names of everything and I've only used motivation and reward for teaching him things. I never ever tell him "no" when doing agility. I want him to be super enthusiastic and drivin....keeps his speed up. If he messes up, lots of times it's my fault. Other times, we just go back and start over. He makes progress still.

How many activities do you partake in and keep partaking in that have absolutely nothing good to offer, not one thing of benefit to you? If someone has a job they go to every day, they keep going so they can get a paycheck. They need that paycheck. If the paychecks stopped, they probably would stop going to that job. No one had to mop a floor with them (LOL) or pinch, hit, yell. They only removed the paycheck. So that person stopped going to that job. That behavior ceased. If that person were to have been mopped with, pinched, yelled at or jerked around, they would have left the job too, but with a much worse feeling about bosses, a distrust, a lack of respect. They would not be inclined to go rushing out to find a new job for fear of something like that happening again. But the person who merely had their paycheck withdrawn would be thinking, "I want a paycheck, I want money." They would be more inclined to go find a job in a hurry. LOL. One can say people are not the same as dogs. That is true. There are differences. However, learning behavior is very similar among mammals and the motivation/reward system holds true across the board. You can look through scientific behavioral studies from Pavlov onward. It's really nothing new and I'm sure you are well aware of it all. But maybe it seems easier to just scold and punish. But it's really not.

I somehow think you're exaggerating and I bet you don't really mop your floor with your dogs. LOL If we're going to play "alpha" to our dogs, then we need to act like an alpha and that is not harsh. Alpha wolves only need to walk around looking like Clint Eastwood. They do not have to do a whole lot of flailing around and that makes our dogs think we're out of control and silly. Punishment is Ok if it's not too harsh, but I notice that my dogs listen to me better, and trust me better than dogs in the past which I used more punishment/correction type teaching. I do use some corrections, but basically, I do use motivation and reward type training. It's fun, there's no fear or wondering what's going to happen next from the dog. They work better for reward than they do to avoid punishment. That is what I have noticed. I've trained both ways.

When my dogs were pups (and I've had my share of pups) if they were gnawing on me, I'd quit playing with them. I'd walk away and ignore them. Weah, weah, weah....that's no fun. When doggie wasn't biting for even a few seconds, I'd turn on the big attention and maybe a treat, give a chew toy. The second the teeth dug into my skin....I'm up abruptly and turning away from puppy...not a look, word, touch....nothing. I'd then give the dog a wonderful chew toy which helped teething pain and then praise and make a fuss when he chewed on that. Show the pup what you want and reward for that. Show that you control his resources. That's what makes a good leader. It didn't take my pups more than a few weeks to phase out this behavior.

If the dog is following you and biting your ankles in spite of your ignoring, then he must still be getting some payoff....the feel of your skin on his teeth. Yum, yum. So, you have to remove your skin from the dog. You either lock yourself in the bathroom for one or two minutes or put the dog in the crate for a time out.....not in anger, not as a punishment or he'll hate his crate. But to be seperated from you is the loss of the ultimate reward. You show him you won't play with him when he bites and that when he stops biting, you show him how much you like to play with him.

Later on, when he's gotten this "keep the teeth off me," you can go back and teach bite inhibition whereby you put your hand in his mouth and let him mouth you, but you let him know when it hurts, "OUCH!!!!" When he's gentle, you praise. Some trainers teach that as they go along. I get the dog to understand no biting first and then go back to it. I think it's important that a dog learns that when and if he has his teeth on someone, it mustn't be hard. He needs to learn to have a soft mouth when necessary.

My Doberman plays around, mouthing my hands a lot when I allow it. He's gentle as a lamb. He mouths and plays with the Chihuahuas gently. He understood this quite early on in his puppyhood. I didn't have to use any adversive actions.

Couldn't resist, roflmao. My age is 63..since I am older than anyone else in the world, I am sure I am at least 15 years older than you!

(oh heck---there are __3__ crows out on the carport!!!)

I explained in my above post what I really did mean. I had in mind a dog that might try lunging at others out of the blue and attacking them. My blue B*tch Misty was very sharp. Had crappy breeding of course, but she was my first purebred dog, and the beginning of my learning process.

Back when I was asking Adrienne if she were familiar with the two breeds if have as far as peculiarities I had in mind that unless folks have lived with Manchesters, they have no idea what Hades it can be!
If I were to lock myself away from them in the bathroom, I would never be able to come out! I have had the little hateful things jump up and bite me in my arse--on the bottom section of the buttock!!!!!
It is the way the little sheets are! It is their idea of a joke. So, I have learned to kick backward like a mule!!!! I can walk forward and kick backward at the same time, bwaahahahah!

If you have any of the Dobe books, especially Anna K's book, there should be a section on Ellen Hoffman, and some pictures of her dogs.....The President and Sparkplug. Her kennel name was Elfred's. Pissed her off after she kicked her husband out, rofl. Anyway I was at her house soon after I got Misty, and Prez was trying to mess with a young b*tch. Ellen smacked him on his bite and told him to knock it off. He turned around and growled at her. I was backing up toward the door, roflmao. Ellen grabbed and EMPTY paper towel roll and proceeded to beat Prez's head in with it, rofl. He sure knew he had screwed up. He likely thought momma wouldn't spank him in front of company!!

Now, Ellen was about 5 foot tall and slim built. Prez came up to her hip, and weighed about 110 pounds. But he knew who was boss!

Of course some dogs are just plain treacherous, and the only place for them is in the ground. I have been around a couple of those treacherous dogs, and I must admit, my hair stood on end. And with the one dog it was definitely due to brain trouble. He did end up having to be put down. He tried to eat the girl that had him since he was a baby. The other Dobe was pure and simply a homicidal manic---literally. And there was no distracting, no positive nothing. He would attack out of nowhere for no reason. One day the lady that had bottle fed him since he was 4 weeks old was putting a cookie sheet of corn bread into the oven, and Barron jumped her from behind and tried to eat her alive. Son of a "you know what" did the same thing to me......scraping his teeth along the back of my nylon jacket!!!!! I let him have it with a folding metal chair, and that slowed him down. And his owner had brutally beaten the dog several times after biting, and nothing cowed him. I do not know if you have ever seen the expression on a dog change as they go into kill mode, but it is a terrible thing to experience.

So when I say BITE, I mean BITE!! Not mouthing---attacking with the intention of doing severe harm. You are either able to put the fear into these dogs, or you have to kill them. Barron's owner ended up shooting the dog one day as it was attacking Jeanne again.

It is true that with a few of these dogs they have been found to have brain tumors, and thanks to God they are in the minority. BUT (you know that was coming, lol) you cannot always tell what problem you are dealing with, and just have to do what you can to squealch the problem--nip it in the bud, so to speak.

Soooooo, how young are you? I really do think that it would help all of us to have a clue about each other's ages. It would give us an point of reference about each others background. Such as the Mickey Mouse post. I mean who in America don't know about the Mickey Mouse song, rofl!!!!! And too, it does take years and years of working with different dogs to obtain and understanding of doggy psychology. Know the age would give us the ability to be less sharp with those we think should be able to see things as we do! Now, that is just my opinon.

One of those crows is trying to figure out how to get a meal out of one of the feeders. Guess the rain washed all the dog food off the carport. Better get out there and give the poor things some food. All the creatures are having it rough since Ivan, and again since Dennis.

A nice evening to all!!

[Manchesters]

If you feel so inclined, could you find me something (don't go to too much trouble. You should be able to find something in just a few minutes) where it describes wild dogs or wolf pack leaders doing things like you describe? Taking hold of the puppies sides of the head and shaking the hell out of them? Everything I've learned about wolf/dog behavior describes a very different atmosphere and scenario among the wolves and their pack leaders.

In either case, I am my dogs' leader. I have no trouble with them minding me and behaving themselves. But I don't have to do stuff like that. They already know that I provide for them and if they want to live, they better behave. LOL.



Are we talking puppy biting here or an older dog acting aggressively? In either case, I don't personally believe in mistreating an animal. There are other ways of modifying and stopping behaviors. Firmness, insistance on compliance is one thing, but frightening and physically hurting an animal....I have to disagree with. Sorry, I can't help myself.

We are talking Biting to inflict bodily harm. Adult male wolves will be attacked by the pack leader and fought with tooth and nail until the lower wolf submits and ends up on its back. Some of those fights that they show on TV are pretty fierce. The theory behind what I did was Misty (which basically amount to nothing more than intimidation and putting the fear of God into her) was to get eye to eye with them, and by lifting them off their feet you had them in a submissive position. I was in no way able to "roll" an 85 pound Dobe who wanted to argue with me. I only had to do it once. Which is generally the way it works. She was completely trustworth around strangers after that.

She was a real character. She decided that it was not the squirrels in the trees that were driving her nuts--she decided it was the TREES. You would see her outside leaping into the air and grabbing the tree branches and killing them, rofl. She kept all the trees trimmed 7 feet above the ground, rofl.

[Doberluv]

Ok...I imagined we were talking about puppies who nip and chew when they're first learning and teething etc.

A dog who attacks his owner in the first place....well, there's a problem. Something wasn't done right along the way. A healthy, well bred, normal, correctly brought up dog doesn't do this. If it's to the point where a dog wants to eat or kill his owner, then it's probably about the time it needs to be through in this world.

I believe that aggression when handling a dog can cause aggression in a dog. I too believe that a dog has to have a very, very clear leader. But to be a leader does not equal mistreatment.

What you're describing with the metal chair and all that was you acting in self defence. That's another thing. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do when a dog is about to eat you. But that dog would not be hanging around much longer in my world. LOL.

My Doberman Lyric is nothing like those dogs you describe. He's sweet and gentle, calm, but playful, quiet, peaceful, tolerant, energetic, goofy, humorous and extraordinarily affectionate. He does not have one mean bone in his body toward anyone unless someone burglarizes my house. I wonder what made that Doberman you talked about so awful.

[Manchesters]

Ok...I imagined we were talking about puppies who nip and chew when they're first learning and teething etc.

A dog who attacks his owner in the first place....well, there's a problem. Something wasn't done right along the way. A healthy, well bred, normal, correctly brought up dog doesn't do this. If it's to the point where a dog wants to eat or kill his owner, then it's probably about the time it needs to be through in this world.

I believe that aggression when handling a dog can cause aggression in a dog. I too believe that a dog has to have a very, very clear leader. But to be a leader does not equal mistreatment.

What you're describing with the metal chair and all that was you acting in self defence. That's another thing. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do when a dog is about to eat you. But that dog would not be hanging around much longer in my world. LOL.

My Doberman Lyric is nothing like those dogs you describe. He's sweet and gentle, calm, but playful, quiet, peaceful, tolerant, energetic, goofy, humorous and extraordinarily affectionate. He does not have one mean bone in his body toward anyone unless someone burglarizes my house. I wonder what made that Doberman you talked about so awful.

Barron's mother Flame was a homicial maniac also. Fred should have never bred her. He should have shot her. Some dogs just have psychotic problems, and the only thing for them is to shoot them--either with a gun or a syringe.

In Misty's case, she was a smart arse. She was agressively guarding my car at the age of 3 months. You had to make sure she knew that you were serious about what you were telling her. She was a real pistol.

Now, Fartblossom Max was my first Dobe. He was a one in a trillion dog. Super smart, great sense of humor, and warped sense of humor. And sooooooooooooo trustworthy in every aspect of life. I could go to the grocery store and get meat and whatever else, and leave Max on the backseat with the food, and he would never dream of touching any of it. I could scotch tape a piece of thread across a doorway, and he would not cross it!! There is just so much about him that it would take more strength than I have to type it all.

But for a good for instance, I decided to get Max his C.D. degree, so I got an ILP number on him and started showing in obedience. We were at the Montgomery Al. show, and I wanted to make sure he had emptied his poop shoot. I took him outside, and took the leash off. He went up the incline, and found a bush to water, which he did. He started back down, and I yelled to him "I told you to make the poopies!!" Well he turned around and went back up to top of the hill, and went into his wind up routine (he had to run in a circle about 25 times, lol) and then pooped. I heard a voice behind me saying "I know I just saw it, but I DO NOT BELIEVE IT!!!!!!" I turned around and an older gentleman was standing there with this look of jaw dropping amazement, rofl.

The kids in the neighborhood used to show up every Saturday morning and bang on my window for me to let Max out to play with them. I would hear them out in the front yard yelling at Max "Max you're cheating!!!! That's not fair Max!!" He would be out there with a stick dangling from his mouth, waiting for them to try to get him. And when they did he would just skip away from them.

He was tickelish, and when someone touched his side and went "Coochey Coo" he would jump out of his skin--but he enjoyed the game of being "stalked". I ended up at a friend's house with 3 grown men under the kitchen table coochey cooing Max, roflmao.

I never had to discipline him. Just a look from me and he would be crushed. He got his C.D. in 4 shows, with scores of 186, 197 and 196. He would have had it in 3 shows but he stood up on the return after the long down. He went 2nd, and Highest Dobe In Trial at the Montgomery Show. Guess it was a good thing I emptied his poop shoot before he went in the ring, rofl.

I am exhausted. Gotta get a snooze and then head off for Walmart.

[Doberluv]

A-w-w-w...he sounds like one of the great ones! You must miss him. That's how I feel about Lyric...such a strong bond there.

[gaddylovesdogs]

I am afraid that in this instance I mean literally wiping up the floor. Not pretending to be a dog at all---acting as pack leader. I only had to do it once with one dog. I got her by both sides of her head, picked her up on her hind legs, and shook the hell out of her. We are talking a Dobe here.
Whether it is an adult dog or a puppy, I would never do that.

[Manchesters]

Whether it is an adult dog or a puppy, I would never do that.

IF you had ever been around Misty, you would have been standing BEHIND me while I did it, rofl. I could have told Misty to eat you, and she would have asked for a knife and fork and ketchup!! She was a very sharp dog. You cannot BS that type of dog with politically correct stuff. It is a case of who is the stronger leader. She was not hurt, she was intimidated, which was what I had to do. And I had to keep reminding her who was leader. She was really something. Everybody that knew her loved her and got the biggest kick out of her "on fire" looking for a battle attitude.

[Doberluv]

I wouldn't either Gaddy. If a dog is that unmangageable, then it makes me think that all along the way, the compulsive type handling is what caused this in the first place. I don't think most dogs would be giving that kind of trouble if they were treated fairly all along and there was a trusting relationship in place. Being rough and dominating is not my idea of animal husbandry. (no offense to anyone, but that's my opinion) Controlling a dog's resources, having it earn it's keep is the way to be a leader, not by attacking it. Good, respected leaders do not put their charges on the defensive and attack them. If there's a behavior problem, there are lots of ways to deal with it without aggressing the animal. Aggression causes aggression and ruins a dog and that includes all these silly manuvers, stepping on them, knocking them around, holding them up on their hind legs where their hips are being strained in a young dog. I'm about to be outraged.

Every dog has something that will motivate it in a positive way. Does it want to eat when it's hungry? Then give it a job to do first. You can get respect from a dog simply because it has needs in order for survival and you control those needs. Boy! Some people are sure missing out on the greatest relationship there can be between dog and human. Too dang bad.

[Manchesters]

A-w-w-w...he sounds like one of the great ones! You must miss him. That's how I feel about Lyric...such a strong bond there.

Yes he was definitely one of the greatest of the great. Especially for being a dog pound Doberman. He used to drive me nuts with the tennis ball. I would be bouncing it on the ground and he would get the timing just right and stick his paw in and pull the ball out and away. I could tell him to find something and he would sniff every inch of the yard until he found it. All this was self taught on his part.

He had a fantastic vocabulary. One of those where sometimes you have to spell words. One night my dad was passed out in his recliner chair. Old Fartyblossom came into the living room looked at dad's hand, and disappeared. He came back a few seconds later with his squeaky chicken leg in his mouth, went over and dropped it onto dad's hand!!!!!!!! Startled the poop out of my father!!!!!!

He got the name Fartblossom because whenever you offered him something he would take it, pick it to a hundred pieces, then walk off and leave it. He also liked to torment my mother by stealing her tissues off her lap, and tearing them to 100 pieces. His idea of a joke!!

He died at only 10 years old from a telescoped intestine. The drunken witch I was renting a room from fed him a cooked chicken back. He died in agony, on the same day my mother died. Guess God wanted to make sure mom had a Dobe. HER dog Skinny was a monster who hated birds with a passion. Would have run all over pulling the feathers out of the angels wings!!!!!

Still trying to motivate and get to the store!!! :o

[gaddylovesdogs]

OK you shook her by her back legs? That's animal abuse if you ask me.

[gaddylovesdogs]

Yanking my dogs around like a rag doll because they've been bad would not work.

[Manchesters]

OK you shook her by her back legs? That's animal abuse if you ask me.

I must have you totally confused at this point, rofl. Picture someone shaking a Dobe by the hind legs. Now, what good could that possibly do, lolol. The dog would be convinced I was luney!!

The trick was to get the dog up so I could look her in the eye. All I did was take her by both sides of her head, and lift her front end up into the air so that she was STANDING on her hind legs. You can't pick them up and shake them by the scruff like you would a puppy--not when they weigh 80-85 pounds, so you do as I did. It worked. And Misty was way too thick headed to ever be mentally affected by anything done to her. Sorry for the confusion!

[gaddylovesdogs]

OK because I was thinking you were throwing your dog around. I wouldn't do that and I personally don't like scruff shakes.

It would be hard for me to throw my sixty pounders around.

[nedim]

I think training works better on the whole biting issue. Peanut used to be a terror. She would bite, nip and once she even opened opened blood on my hand. While it is easier to smack your dog around, it accomplishes absolutely nothing other than teaching your dog that aggression is a common thing and that if she can "out-aggress" you, she wins. I tried the intimidation bit once. WRONG MOVE. Peanut bit me, so I held her by her head and looked her in the eye and said bad dog!. She didnt listen or didnt know the meaning of the words and proceeded to bit my arm. I ignored her and when I came back into the room, she had calmed down. Now, I tell her NO! when she plays and hets a bit rough. It really does work. She'll whine and she folds her ears down and just lays her head on my lap. I know all dogs are different, but if you must resort to violence with your dog, then that sort of defeats the purpose of having a canine companion.

[Doberluv]

Oh Manchesters, you asked how old I was. I forgot to answer. I'm 50. This is me on the ferry boat going to Bainbridge Is. from Seattle to visit my family. :)

http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/data//500/me_on_ferry_to_B_Is_.JPG

[Doberluv]

Nedim,

Good post. Why have a dog if it's that much touble. Do you know how much nonsense horses can give you when they're young and learning? I can just see all 5'3" of me throwing a horse down and stepping on his toes to make him behave. LOL. You have to outsmart them, be a little creative and not resort to flailing around out of control, just like with dogs.

[gaddylovesdogs]

My girls will get a little nippy when we're rough playing. A good strong "NO!" works for me too.

[sammydawg]

I second what doberluv said. I am all for teaching dogs the right way to behave and the wrond way WITHOUt aversives or violence. I have a well behaved child and a well behaved dog and neither one has ever gotten smacked.
I believe that most dogs who bite and show aggression towards people were not well socialized and trained in the first place and I don't think resorting to violence is the solution.
I have seen amazing results from dog training on a reward system / postive methods with problem dogs. This doesn't mean the human is not the leader-- they just don't uphold their leadership with beatings or violence. Just my two cents.;)

[bridey_01]

In at least sixty percent of aggression cases I deal with it has stemmed from the dogs owner. Its a dreadful situation, in which that first slap, kick, punch or roll from the owner has resulted in a growl or defense bite from the dog, which only provokes more abuse from the person. You can't fight aggression with aggresion. It just doesn't make any sense. The principles of animal behaviour (which applies to ALL) animals will always cure a problem if USED CORRECTLY. Take marine mammal trainers for instance. They simply CAN'T manhandle their animals into doing what they want, so they have to use operant and classical conditioning to train their dolpinhs/whales/ seals to move from pen to pen, proffer a flipper for blood tests, open their mouth for inspections etc. If these people slapped or tried to hurt their animals in response to aggresion, they would be killed.I don't see why any fifty pound dog would need physical corrections when a two and a half tonne killer whale doesn't.

[Saje]

Manchester, just so you know - you're not our oldest member. And 63 is hardly old. Now, don't you feel young? ;)

[Manchesters]

Manchester, just so you know - you're not our oldest member. And 63 is hardly old. Now, don't you feel young? ;)

Yeah, 63 is old, rofl. Especially just after getting back from Walmart and having to lug in groceries and put them away. There are times when I wish I had gotten married. Then HE could go to the store! But at least I was correct about being longer in tooth than Dobluver!

It is impossible to describe what I did with Misty. You would have to be there to get the picture. She had jumped one of the other dogs, and when I made her quit, she growled at me and showed her teeth. So I gave her the OH YEAH???!!!!! treatment. Picked her up off her front feet, backed her over to the fence, got nose to nose and told her she was going to die. She believed me, apologized, and we never had another incident. My point was that with a situation such as biting people, the lesson needs to be forceful enough that it need not be repeated.

If any of you good folks had ever had to deal with a spazed out Chow I would have loved to have been there to see how you handled it. Especially when the dog is eating its way up the leash trying to gert to you to eat you up! Some breeds of dogs flake out totally---Afghans, Greyhounds, Whippets and the like. Chows and Sharpei are others. They go nutso just like a cat will, and there is no reasoning with them. They will chew you up alive. It is a fearsome thing to see. I knew a lady that got caught in the middle of a fight between her Greyhound and Whippet. She was taking them out to the kennels, and had one in each hand, by the collar. Her arms were hamburger when it was over.

Anyhooooo, I am really fried. Going to the store does that to me. Takes 3 days to recuperate!!!

Hope all are having a good night.

[bridey_01]

Well, I have dealt with quite a few ultra aggressive sharpei's and akitas. I don't get to the point where they are about to "eat" me. If I go to a clients house specifically for aggression problems, I would have to be an idiot to sling a leash on her spazzed out sharpei and start walking it around the block.
With human based aggression it is the owner who knows the dog best, not me. I rely on them to hold the dogs leash whilst I examine the dog closely to determine what kind of aggression it is exhibiting. Most of the time it is fear based, and beating the dog into submission would be highly detrimental in such a case. Somtimes a dog has just been spoiled rotten and bites in frustration when it doesn't get what it wants. Somtimes the dog is biting hands specifically to stop its owner dealing out some old school based corrections!
In any case, my first step in such a matter would be to establish myself clearly as someone to trust in the dogs eyes, so that I can work closely with them and their owner. Only when I am certain of a steady relationship would I take a biting dog out and start working with it.

[BigDog2191]

IF you had ever been around Misty, you would have been standing BEHIND me while I did it, rofl. I could have told Misty to eat you, and she would have asked for a knife and fork and ketchup!! She was a very sharp dog. You cannot BS that type of dog with politically correct stuff. It is a case of who is the stronger leader. She was not hurt, she was intimidated, which was what I had to do. And I had to keep reminding her who was leader. She was really something. Everybody that knew her loved her and got the biggest kick out of her "on fire" looking for a battle attitude.

You managed to pick up a Doberman by it's head off the ground and shake it? ... I'm afraid if I even tried that with Rocky, his neck would pop, lol.

Hell, I dunno if I could lift all 70 pounds...

[BigDog2191]

My $0.02 About This Whole Thing:

Frankly, I'm starting to get sick of this positive reinforcement BS. I tried every **** thing possible to get Rocky to stop nipping including a LOT of positive reinforcement. Guess where that got me? No where.

People said, ignore him put him in another room, know what happened when I did that, he'd leave a nice big pile of **** in the room. Only adding gas to the fire that is my anger.

People said NEVER EVER EVER hit your dog or yell at him if he pee's or poo's in the house, guess where that got me? No where. As soon as I started giving him a little spank along with some low angry firm yelling-- his ears would go down and he actually KNEW that he had done wrong and guess what? That week, he stopped using the bathroom in the house.

This along with yelling at the mess works, very nice technique.

Have any of you seen maybe a documentary or at least clips of wolf behavior? It's not like they do positive reinforcement. If the alpha is challenged he practically mauls the challenger, hence, putting him in his place.

NILIF barely works for me... Rocky's one stubborn GSD.

But then again, if you hit him, he lashes out. I really am lost about how the hell I should go about training a **** dog... neither works.

I know I've said this before and it's probably getting old but I'm thinking of giving him up. He bit my dad and myself today for correcting him with our hand. Know why we corrected him with our hand? Cause he bared his teeth and growled at myself and my dad when I was trying to clip his nails.

And no it's no animal abuse, that's stupid--it's called correcting him! I've seen a mother spank her child in public-- it's not abuse, DISCIPLINE!

But like I said, neither is the right way. At least for Rocky. I do so MANY **** things for him-- but I still get paid with him baring his teeth or growling at me any time he feels I'm doing something wrong whether it's taking something away from his mouth, holding his paw so I can clip his nails, or going near his food...

[Babyblue5290]

You showed Rocky violence so guess what! He showed you violence right back!!

[BigDog2191]

Ok, then you tell me how I should've gone about doing it... since positive reinforcement didnt do anything for me... go ahead.

[nedim]

Read this:


All puppies love to play by being mouthy and biting or chewing anything they can get their sharp little teeth into. These sharp teeth are the reason that it is crucial for puppies to learn bite inhibition (controlling the force of their bite) during the first few months of life. Normally this is learned naturally and effectively through contact with mom and other littermates. If the puppy bites mom during nursing mom can roll the dog over to correct it or just get up and walk away. Hungry puppy learns very quickly to control those teeth if it wants to eat. Likewise when playing with littermates, if a puppy gets bitten too hard it will yelp and stop playing. Once again puppy learns that biting hard means the end of something good. Normally if puppy stays with his littermates for the first 2-4 months of its life it will learn bite inhibition.This is why it is so important for dogs to meet and play with other dogs. A group obedience class is usually the best way to properly socialize dogs, and reduce possible bad behaviours in the future even if the dog stayed with its littermates for a long time.

When it comes to humans, a new puppy or dog may never have learned that hard biting on humans is never allowed. When a puppy bites you during play it's almost never an aggressive bite, it is just play.(You would know if it's an aggressive bite because the dog would be acting aggressively i.e. growling.) Dogs play using their mouths because they are like its hands. They touch and grab and lick, it's one of the ways they interact with us and the world. It's up to the dog owner to teach the dog bite control if the dog hasn't learned this on its own. Usually puppies and dogs will bite our hands because that's the way we interact with them during feeding, grooming, playing etc.

The best approach to teaching a puppy or dog bite control is usually adopting the behaviour of one of the dog's littermates. If the dog gets too mouthy and bites you too hard during play, exaggerate a loud yelp or cry and immediately stop whatever activity you are doing. Turn away and ignore your dog. Sometimes this takes a bunch of lessons, but most dogs will learn it over time. At first the goal should be getting the dog to reduce the force of the bite. Then the goal is to reduce the frequency of biting. Expect that it will take a few days to a week. Hitting a dog after a bite is the worst thing you can do because the dog's intent was play not harm. A hit from you therefore, confuses the dog and it may even react defensively, this time biting you with intent.

In general teach the dog that playing with dog toys is better than playing with hands directly because the game lasts so much longer. Play with a frisbee, rope, Kong, ball etc. Don't use your hands as a dog toy. Most puppies bite you accidentally and that's how you both learn. If you have already received an accidental play bite so you know how hard it is, and you want to deliberately elicit a bite to teach the dog bite inhibition, only then should you play directly with your hands. You will probably get a bite and it probably won't hurt that much and the puppy might learn faster. Wear long sleeves and protective ace bandages or gloves if you're afraid.

Remember: All family members must be consistent, a bite equals a cry from you and the end of play and attention.

If your dog is regularly overly mouthy, aggressive or you feel threatened by your dog, then it's time to seek immediate professional help. Ask your vet to give you some referrals.

[BigDog2191]

That's basically what I was told to do. That's pretty much positive reinforcement. And... that didn't work.

I am seeking a professional for help... doubt that will work though due to money problems.

[nedim]

So how long have you been "disciplining" Rocky? Is that working?

[bridey_01]

Look, I'm going to be blunt here. The theories of animal behaviour which put very frankly are no payoff/no behaviour payoff/increased behaviour never "don't work". This may sound awful to you but, if it didn't work YOU'RE NOT DOING IT RIGHT. There I said it. Positive training was never made to be easy. You have to have spot on timing and be able to "read" your dog for emotions.
You answered aggression with aggression and now you are paying the price. You say it worked, but now you're getting bitten.You say he growled at you when you were clipping his nails (probably because it is very uncomfortable and scary). Why do you think he growled? Possible because he was never desensitized to nail clipping? So what did you do. You hit him. Think about it from his point of veiw. Someone comes up to you, grabs your foot and starts messing around with it with a peice of metal. You say "Hey what are you doing?!" and the person hits you? What would you do, smile and say thankyou?

[BigDog2191]

So how long have you been "disciplining" Rocky? Is that working?

Refer to my 2nd post in this forum. I've been "disciplining" him for a while when I found that positive reinforcement does absolutely nothing--at least with him.

And if you read the post, I state that neither works...

[nedim]

Ok, I dont feel like going to war with this, but I could pick out a bunch of spots where you say that this works very nicely.

[BigDog2191]

Look, I'm going to be blunt here. The theories of animal behaviour which put very frankly are no payoff/no behaviour payoff/increased behaviour never "don't work". This may sound awful to you but, if it didn't work YOU'RE NOT DOING IT RIGHT. There I said it. Positive training was never made to be easy. You have to have spot on timing and be able to "read" your dog for emotions.
You answered aggression with aggression and now you are paying the price. You say it worked, but now you're getting bitten.You say he growled at you when you were clipping his nails (probably because it is very uncomfortable and scary). Why do you think he growled? Possible because he was never desensitized to nail clipping? So what did you do. You hit him. Think about it from his point of veiw. Someone comes up to you, grabs your foot and starts messing around with it with a peice of metal. You say "Hey what are you doing?!" and the person hits you? What would you do, smile and say thankyou?

I've been doing it for a while so he was DESENSITIZED to nail clipping. So what, I'm never supposed to clip my dogs nails anymore?

I hit him because he constantly bared his teeth snarling and snapping at me.

It's uncomfortable and scary? I'm simply holding his hand gently and clipping the tips of his nails-- it doesn't even HURT.

Think about it from MY view, you're trying to help someone but instead that person tries to hurt you, how would you feel? How would you react?

[BigDog2191]

Ok, I dont feel like going to war with this, but I could pick out a bunch of spots where you say that this works very nicely.

Huh? I said that yelling at the mess works nicely. In other posts you may find from what 4-5 months ago, then yes, I may say that. BUT only for a short period of time did it work--the time that I made the post.

Why exactly is that I do have to go to war? I can't even be honest at chazhound without getting verbally bludgeoned to death with "perfect" dog owners.

[nedim]

Dogs are not human. Yes, they ARE smart, but they are nowhere near the intellectual level of humans. So, I wouldnt react the same way to a person b!tching at me when I'm trying to help them as compared to a dog aggressing when I try to help them.

[bridey_01]

Firstly, if he is growling and snapping about nail clipping he is NOT desensitized, dogs that are comfortable with nail clipping sit and wag their tails, hell my dogs GIVE me their paws for clipping! Secondly, if my dog was giving me such a clear indication of his hatred of the situation I would let go of his paw and think "ok, we need to work on this" and GET him to the point where nail clipping is not scary or evil. It doesn't need to hurt for it to be scary to him, as I said before, someone grabs you, you're scared wether they are hurting you or not. Combine this with that he now knows you are capable of hurting him, I would be doing the same as him. What did you think the hitting would acheive? Do you think that would make him ok with nail clipping?

[nedim]

Huh? I said that yelling at the mess works nicely. In other posts you may find from what 4-5 months ago, then yes, I may say that. BUT only for a short period of time did it work--the time that I made the post.

Why exactly is that I do have to go to war? I can't even be honest at chazhound without getting verbally bludgeoned to death with "perfect" dog owners.

Point out to me where I said that I was perfect, and I will drop this and let you have your way.

People said NEVER EVER EVER hit your dog or yell at him if he pee's or poo's in the house, guess where that got me? No where. As soon as I started giving him a little spank along with some low angry firm yelling-- his ears would go down and he actually KNEW that he had done wrong and guess what? That week, he stopped using the bathroom in the house.

[BigDog2191]

I dunno.

Maybe I thought after he comes and nips the crap out of me and I'm bleeding then maybe if I hit him on the nose and say NO when he does that he'll realize what he's done is wrong.

There are a lot of kids that are spanked when they do something bad--this is how they learn that what they've done is wrong.

[nedim]

And there are a lot of kids that retaliate against aggression and become aggressive themselves as they grow older.

[BigDog2191]

Point out to me where I said that I was perfect, and I will drop this and let you have your way.

Nedim, did I say YOU were perfect? Find someone on here that has admitted to hitting their dog... or done something that's doesn't correlate with positive reinforcement.

From my experience here, it seems that everyone is the perfect dog-owner. You don't really talk about your experiences with peanut much, so I wouldn't know about you.

[BigDog2191]

And there are a lot of kids that retaliate against aggression and become aggressive themselves as they grow older.

Tell that to my uncle who was beaten every day all his life by his father-- he's now an upstanding citizen in society who sells cars for a living.

[bridey_01]

Well, that's just not how it works. Look, I know it can get really frustrating at times. You said positive methods worked for a while? How long?
There is such thing in training called a "five week plateu" at which time it is as if the dog has forgotten everything it ever learned. This passes. Positive training is not a one shot thing however, you don't start it, get some sucess then drop it the first time it fails. You have to stick with it and be consistent. I'll wager Rocky is confused and stressed at the moment, he could even be lashing out at you because of you're recent treatment of him.

[nedim]

So because I dont talk about Peanut, does that automatically mean that I hit her? Hmm..maybe I'm quiet about Peanut because lately she has calmed down and actually become a good dog. And no, I didnt smack her up to show her whos boss.

[BigDog2191]

I'm done here.

This proves my point, look at Manchesters, she gets hell every day on this forum because her teaching methods are different or are considered animal cruelty because it's NOT positive reinforcement.

And look at me, you along with BB and Bridey are all teamed up against me-- tomorrow, the whole chazhound forum will be on my ass.

Good bye. And good night.

[BigDog2191]

So because I dont talk about Peanut, does that automatically mean that I hit her? Hmm..maybe I'm quiet about Peanut because lately she has calmed down and actually become a good dog. And no, I didnt smack her up to show her whos boss.

Are you reading my posts? Did I accuse you of hitting her? No. Ok, I will now leave this thread....

[bridey_01]

Well, that proves it then. When I have children I will beat them all day long and they will be upstanding citizens. You know what? Apparently Oprah was sexually assualted many a time when she was young, does that mean we should assualt our kids?

[BigDog2191]

Well, that proves it then. When I have children I will beat them all day long and they will be upstanding citizens. You know what? Apparently Oprah was sexually assualted many a time when she was young, does that mean we should assualt our kids?

DID I SAY THAT?! He was saying that most people go around being very aggressive as adults because they were beaten as children. I used my uncle as an example that this is not ALWAYS the case.

Good lord... read my **** posts.

[nedim]

Tell that to my uncle who was beaten every day all his life by his father-- he's now an upstanding citizen in society who sells cars for a living.


Thats wonderful to hear. I'm not being rude about that, either. As I stated, there are lots of kids who have become violent due to being mistreated. So many murderers and such have abuse in their history.

[BigDog2191]

Thats wonderful to hear. I'm not being rude about that, either. As I stated, there are lots of kids who have become violent due to being mistreated. So many murderers and such have abuse in their history.

I won't disagree with you about that.

With that, I'm seriously done. Good bye Chazhound.

[nedim]

So then you see that I'm trying to state that a human or animal that has been abused has a greater chance of doing so in return, compared to someone who has been tolerated and dealt with without the use of physical reinforcement?

[bridey_01]

Look, I dont want to gang up on you at all! If you HAVE to beat your dog, remember the one principle about punishment "If it doesn't work first time, it's torture". Apparently Manchesters growl and scruff shake was once and one time only. She is not dealing with biting problems now! You have said this method isn't working, yet you are defending it now, please don't leave.

[bridey_01]

I don't blame you at all, it's extremely hard to know what to do in that situation and I'm sure you were doing the best you know how.

[Manchesters]

My $0.02 About This Whole Thing:

Frankly, I'm starting to get sick of this positive reinforcement BS. I tried every **** thing possible to get Rocky to stop nipping including a LOT of positive reinforcement. Guess where that got me? No where.

People said, ignore him put him in another room, know what happened when I did that, he'd leave a nice big pile of **** in the room. Only adding gas to the fire that is my anger.

People said NEVER EVER EVER hit your dog or yell at him if he pee's or poo's in the house, guess where that got me? No where. As soon as I started giving him a little spank along with some low angry firm yelling-- his ears would go down and he actually KNEW that he had done wrong and guess what? That week, he stopped using the bathroom in the house.

This along with yelling at the mess works, very nice technique.

Have any of you seen maybe a documentary or at least clips of wolf behavior? It's not like they do positive reinforcement. If the alpha is challenged he practically mauls the challenger, hence, putting him in his place.

NILIF barely works for me... Rocky's one stubborn GSD.

But then again, if you hit him, he lashes out. I really am lost about how the hell I should go about training a **** dog... neither works.

I know I've said this before and it's probably getting old but I'm thinking of giving him up. He bit my dad and myself today for correcting him with our hand. Know why we corrected him with our hand? Cause he bared his teeth and growled at myself and my dad when I was trying to clip his nails.

And no it's no animal abuse, that's stupid--it's called correcting him! I've seen a mother spank her child in public-- it's not abuse, DISCIPLINE!

But like I said, neither is the right way. At least for Rocky. I do so MANY **** things for him-- but I still get paid with him baring his teeth or growling at me any time he feels I'm doing something wrong whether it's taking something away from his mouth, holding his paw so I can clip his nails, or going near his food...

In a way, BabyBlue is right. BUT, you must realize that there are times when we have to overlook a dog's behavior. One of those times are when we are cutting nails. The thing to do is tie the dog's mouth shut with its leash or something similar---I do around the nose and back up behind the ears. Eventually Rocky will give up fighting and just stand there and glare at you.

And also, I personally prefer a correction with the collar. When around the house, you can fix up a snap on tab that you can leave on the dog's collar that will enable you to get hold of the collar. IF you know how to give a proper correction (a quick pull and release of the collar in a kind of popping way) it will be very effective.

I agree about the Politically Correct positive reinforcement baloney (or bologna, if ya prefer, rofl.)

I had a male Doberman for 13 years. If I tried to get physical with him to punish him, he would show his teeth and growl, but it was a whining type growl, like he were begging me to knock it off so he wouldn't have to bite the shish out of me, lol. Rambo and I got along beautifully for those 13 years. He never did that much that I had to correct him for, thankfully!

I believe in using the collar as much as possible for doing the correcting. That way the knuckleheaded dogs have no excuse to try to chomp us. And you must bear in mind, as I mentioned to Yuckaduck, the majority of BYB Shepherds have crappy temperments. Junk bred Shepherds very, very often end up as fear biters, and that type of dog can be treacherous as heck.

But, again---even tho I don't believe in taking any garbage from any living creature with two or four legs---fair is fair. I have a little old guy named Ridge (Large Toy Manchester) who has grumbled his way thru life every since I got him when he was 1 year old. Now when it came to the toenails, he was savage.....would try to eat my hand up, or so I thought. Then I realized he was actually lunging at the clipper! I tied his mouth and went ahead and did his nails. Same thing when I cleaned his anal glands.

His crate is on the "second story" on top of another 400 crate, and I have to lift him up and down. He will be hanging there from my hands, growling like a killer diller! I kiss him on the nose while he is growling, and he just glares at me, roflmbo.

As I have often said.....see if you can find a show giving dog club in your neck of the woods, and see if they can put you in touch with someone who maybe works their dogs in obedience, and knows what the devil they are talking about. That person could evaluate Rocky for you, and give you an idea of what personality quirks he might have.

And do you have a crate for him? If not, get one. Keeps the dog owner happy and safe, rofl. Rejoice, because there have been many perplexed and discouraged owners who have gone before you, and have come to a happy ending!!!!!! Misty the Dobe I posted about was a very strong willed, challenging dog to own. Many times I was really discouraged. But I listened to what others suggested, and tried it out, and it worked. Misty lived to be 9 years old.....her CVI (cervical vertabrae instability finally did her in, bless her heart.)

So......cheer up. It could be worse---Rocky could be twins, rofl.

[Manchesters]

Look, I dont want to gang up on you at all! If you HAVE to beat your dog, remember the one principle about punishment "If it doesn't work first time, it's torture". Apparently Manchesters growl and scruff shake was once and one time only. She is not dealing with biting problems now! You have said this method isn't working, yet you are defending it now, please don't leave.

All I did was stand Misty up on her hind legs so I could look her directly in the eyeball, and shake her head with each word I growled at her. Just as they tell you on Nanny 911, you must make eye contact. There was no way on God's green earth I was going to get down on all 4's to look Misty in the eye!!!! There was no violence. Anyone seeing us from a distance would simply have thought that Misty had jumped up on me and I was talking to her. Yeah, right, rofl.

Sometimes you have to be forceful and use a method that makes a dog __think__ that it will die if it repeats a really horrid behavior. I only ever used or suggested using these methods for a behavior that just might end in the dog going to the pound. In my case, if any of my dogs tried to start any garbage with any other dog, I would be all over them. You HAVE to do it to maintain your position as pack leader. Again----watch a show on Discovery about the interaction of wolves.

Once upon a time that jerk Jim McKay who emcees Westminster--or did at one time, and was always asking stupid asinine, inane questions--asked the late, and truly great James Clarke how come all of his dogs got along. James answered "because I EXPECT them to get along." We doggy people knew EXACTLY what he meant, roflmbo. It means that if any dogs start a fight we WILL finish it, lol.

There are things that are just impossible to explain in typing. And it is impossible to convey the mental image. I try but it is not easy, and may often sound harsher than it actually is.

Of course at this point in my life my dogs are all spoiled rotten, and run roughshod over me every day. They do what they want because they are too small and too fast for me to knock 'em up side of their heads. However the shake can still gives me a modicum of control, lol.

I am going back to sleep. Still wiped out from Walmart.

[bridey_01]

Well, using postive methods my dogs ENJOY nail clipping!:) I don't have to tie mouths of put up with any growling, glaring or snapping. Same goes for tick patrol and the likes.

[Babyblue5290]

Well, using postive methods my dogs ENJOY nail clipping!:) I don't have to tie mouths of put up with any growling, glaring or snapping. Same goes for tick patrol and the likes.

I wouldn't go as far as sayint they enjoy it, but mine will lay down and just take it until it's over without squirming. lol

[bridey_01]

Lol, well it took alot of convincing! (You want dinner, well you're only eating while I clip your nails!)

[Babyblue5290]

LOL....don't you love bribery! :D LOL

[bridey_01]

Couldn't live without it :P

[Doberluv]

Positive reinforcement does work if it's done right. It's based on operant and classical conditioning and has been proven to be most effective in training mammals. They train dolphins and whales with it, animals used in movies, service dogs and a multitude of other uses and other animals. Like Bridey said, (I think it was Bridey) timing is important, along with understanding how it's done. It takes some reading as well as practice, but it's really not very complicated at all. If it's not working, it's probably that people aren't realizing what they're seeing at the moment they're seeing it and so their timing is off. They're perhaps not seeing what payoff the dog is getting and are often inadvertantly rewarding their dog for the wrong thing or at the wrong time. If someone spends some time reading and learning about it, that may help.

I've trained lots of dogs using this method for the most part. When you don't set yourself up as a clear leader or when you put a dog on the defensive, these are a couple of reasons you'll see aggression develop in your dog. If a dog is already afraid of something and you punish it, it is backed into a corner in the worst way. It's only recourse is to act on instinct of self preservation. You may not recognize that the dog is fearful. A lot of growling behavior is based on fear, not dominance. So then you punish the dog and there you have it. You've interupted the growl (warn) bite sequence. He has no other option.

Pretty much the only reason a dog becomes aggressive is owner/handler mistakes. Sure, there are a few dogs with genetically poor temperament, but that is not the norm.

1) Pushing a dog into a corner will cause more fear and more self protection instincts to come out from the dog. (growling/biting)

2) Not setting yourself up as a good leader and letting a dog call the shots can cause aggression. (it is written else where what makes a good leader. You can find that. Attacking, squelching, severely dominating, punishing, shaking, scruffing does not make a good leader.) Study wolf behavior first before whoever it was that was telling people that alpha wolves are lashing out at other wolves to ensure their position. This is not the case) Alpha wolves are secure with their position and don't need to do that. It's the middle ranking wolves who squabble, grab at eachother etc. So when you act violent in any way toward your dog, you are not looking like a leader, but rather like a lower ranking member of the group and one who your dog (also a middle or lower ranking member, so to speak) can challenge. Lower ranking wolves do not challenge the alpha, once the heirarchy is established.

3) If a dog is afraid of something, force or punishment will not ease this fear. Just because you don't think the dog should be afraid since you wouldn't be, does not make it so. Dogs do not think the way we think. If you don't understand canine behavior, even a little bit, then how can you work with a dog??? Of course you can't.

I use a Dremel on my dogs, but even if I used clippers, I would never force the dog, tie his muzzle or otherwise make him even more afraid. Even if he's not afraid but just doesn't want it done, you don't force and frighten/punish the dog. No, no, no! You condition the dog. What's the big hurry? If you got bitten or growled at, it is not positive reinforcement, operant conditioning or the dog to blame. It is the handler who is doing something that is not condusive to canine behavior.

You can be sarcastic and say that some here are "perfect dog owners, have perfect dogs." Well......maybe that's because of the methods we use. I don't have perfect dogs and I am not perfect but I most certainly have never owned a dog who was aggressive to me. I created a relationship of trust, never frightening the dog with severe punishment, never forcing a dog into feeling like he was backed into a corner, working through fears with gradual conditioning and lots of praise, associating things the dog didn't like or was afraid of with good things; treats, praise, calm affection, gentleness.

Take the Dremel. How scary would that be at first to a dog? It's electric. It causes vibrations. I hit my nail with it by accident and it gave me the major heebie jeebies...not pleasant. If I forced my dogs to have it done in one session, tied their muzzles closed, how much more would they like the Dremel. (you can use this same example with clippers. They can be scary too and hurt when they pinch the quick by squeezing the sides of the nail against it) The idea is to get the dog to accept and tolerate something you're doing to it. The idea is NOT to dominate and force the dog to do your will in a short time. The first day of conditioning, I turned on the Dremel in the room that the dogs were in and handed them some treats and walked away. When they walked a little closer to investigate it with lots of caution, I praised and gave them treats. I played with them while the Dremel was on. Then I put it away. The next day, I held the Dremel in my hand and if the dogs came close, I'd treat them and praise them. Later I held a paw while the dog was lying down and held the Dremel in the other hand, trying to see if I could get it a little closer to them. Then I'd treat and let the dog leave the area if he wanted to. Finally after a couple of days I was able to Dremel one or two nails on one paw. Wooooopie! Big reward (steak pieces) and praise. The dog found out that he wasn't going to be forced to stick around and could leave. Then he didn't mind coming back by my lap because he didn't feel threatened. He'd come back and I'd do a couple more nails and again yummy treats. Now I do all my dogs' nails this way and they are jumping around excited because they love the very special treats they get when we do this. They don't really love the Dremel because it does cause vibrations and so on, but they tolerate it and are not afraid of it or me. They have no reason to growl or bite me. Little Chulita, my Chi is always the first on my lap. She really loves the attention and is so good about her nails. It's like she's saying, "me first!" LOL. Ok...so it took a few days to get them conditioned. Is that so bad? There was no force, threat, punsihment. It was all associated with good times, treats and games afterward.

You have to associate something you need your dog to do with something he likes. You have to have your dog earn good things. You control his resources. There are things you don't understand about operant conditioning. To say it doesn't work is ridiculous. It does work when done correctly. You can act defensive and say you're leaving and say some people here have "perfect" dogs and they think they're soooooo perfect" if you want to. Or you can stay and read and learn something from people who have raised dogs without these problems. Does that not tell you something? We must be doing something right when we "perfect" people have "perfect" dogs. Actually, all the dogs I've ever had over 40 years have been darn close to perfect. I've never had any of these problems so many have that I read about...aggression, long lasting puppy nipping, jumping, refusal to train... and all the rest of it. And I can assure you I've never mistreated an animal or put them on the defensive.

I got a couple horses who were semi wild....from a 1700 acre ranch in Wyoming. They were treated the same way.....gradual conditioning, quietly, gently. They came to trust me and from there we went a long way. You cannot force animals to do your will and end up with a well adjusted, happy animal. A dog or horse who has submitted in fear and is obeying out of a need to avoid punishment is a ticking time bomb.

To be a good, strong pack leader is not about force, domination, fear, aggression, intimidation. It's about trust, patience, strength, confidence, provision of a dog's needs and controling those things a dog needs by showing the dog he needs to work to get them. It's about showing a dog that you are the one who will take care of him. It's about discipline. Discipline means teaching. It does not mean punishment. Study wolf behavior if you want. We are not wolves. Our situation with our dogs is not exactly like wolves. Dogs are not even wolves, albeit close genetically. They have a few left over instincts like wolves, but a lot of behaviors which are not like wolves. Before anyone goes spouting off about positive training methods not working, learn something first. It sounds so ignorant to make a statement like that. Of course it works. It's the owner or handler who makes it work or does not make it work.

I know you're frusterated with your dog and discouraged and disappointed in how it's going. Your emotions must be on the frayed side. I'm so sorry you're having this difficulty. I hope you can get a behaviorist to help you. I hope you can spend some time learing about canine behavior because once you understand where a dog is coming from, you'll have a much easier time with this dog or one in the future. I write all this long, long post to try and help. I'm sorry it's so long. I wouldn't waste my time if I didn't care. I have lots of things in my yard I need to do before it gets too hot outside. But you and your dog are important to me. I may seem harsh, know it all, blunt and I DON'T know it all. There's always, always more to learn. It's just that I've had lots of dogs with nothing but good experiences and happy, well adjusted dogs who I've had loving, trusting and wonderful relationships with and I want to share that which I have discovered. So, please stay, pull youself up by the boot straps, take some breaths and let's try to help your dog.

[Doberluv]

One other thing and I'll try to make this shorter. Dogs are predators. We mustn't forget that we're dealing with an animal who doesn't think like we do. It's important to understand canines and their behavior, their pre-wired instincts. They're hunters and predators. They have teeth and jaws designed for biting, ripping and a brain which is designed for killing in order to protect themselves and to eat.

Our dogs also can be our best friends. We know that. But, when we orchestrate a situation or their whole existance to be that of a position of fear, distrust, concern about what is coming next, insecurity, backing them into a corner, force...these instincts are going to take hold. There is NO changing that. I don't care what kind of training you do. Instincts are here to stay.

If you want a good relationship with your dog, you have to work with, not against these instincts and their natural, firmly, pre-wired way of thinking. They meet us half way by adapting to many of our ways. It has helped them. But it is a two way street, a synergistic relationship. You can't fight or fool Mother Nature.

[Adrienne]

BigDog, that sucks that you are having such a rough time of it with Rocky. I know it can be so frustrating sometimes when they just don't seem to be getting it. Gunnar is so sensitive, Rocky must not be. The other day Gunnar wouldn't come when called, even when I did the fun play bow and jumped around like an idiot trying to get his attention. So I went to get him and he knows it when he's in trouble, he avoids me so I can't get hold of his collar. I finally got hold of him and drug him into the house and put him in the crate. That poor dog's ears were completely plastered to his head, he looked so pathetic. I felt really bad after the fact but at the time I was so ticked, I mean he knows this command in english and german but apparently what I had wasn't good enough at the time. He was having to much fun doing his own thing. So my solution, work with him on come. We spent three sessions of about 4-5 minutes of Sitz, Platz, Bleib, Heer with yummy treats and lots of play after. I think it is true that if your dog is misbehaving you need to re-shape your behavior and work more with them. Clock in the hours and you will have a wonderfully adjusted companion. Me and Gunnar are going to start basic obediance here in Sept. Not that he needs it, he's got it all down pat for the most part but because I want to start Shutzhund training with him so I need to learn the correct way to train him. I know you and Rocky will figure out how to work together. GSD can be so stubborn at this age can't they?! Does Rocky plaster his ears back when he knows he's in trouble? It's just so pathetic looking I can't help but feel bad, LOL. He know's how to pull his mama's heartstrings.

[Manchesters]

I am having a crappy day, and am busy putting up bird feeders. The big branch I had them on broke off. BEen dead for years. But I just wanted to mention to a few that they should not be disheartened by the well intentioned preachers of positive reinforcement. They experience are liminted as far as spreading across a spectrum of breed and dogs. Some of us dog people ARE using positive reinforcement because our dogs GET TO KEEP THEIR LIVES when they do as we ask of them.

But right now I have to go throw more chains up over the other branch I am now using. And of course it is humid as heck!!

BigDog.....remember that what is said here is said from wanting to be helpful and enable you to enjoy life with your dog. Some good hearted people just do not have the experience that they will have in another few years. They don't realize that some entire breeds are exceptions to the "positive reinforcement" as THEY describe it.

What ain't realized here is that ALL dogs get positive reinforcement in one way or another!!!

To be continued........if I don't end up getting clobbered on the head by the half hanging big branch or a wayward bird feeder!!!!

[Manchesters]

BigDog, that sucks that you are having such a rough time of it with Rocky. I know it can be so frustrating sometimes when they just don't seem to be getting it. Gunnar is so sensitive, Rocky must not be. The other day Gunnar wouldn't come when called, even when I did the fun play bow and jumped around like an idiot trying to get his attention. So I went to get him and he knows it when he's in trouble, he avoids me so I can't get hold of his collar. I finally got hold of him and drug him into the house and put him in the crate. That poor dog's ears were completely plastered to his head, he looked so pathetic. I felt really bad after the fact but at the time I was so ticked, I mean he knows this command in english and german but apparently what I had wasn't good enough at the time. He was having to much fun doing his own thing. So my solution, work with him on come. We spent three sessions of about 4-5 minutes of Sitz, Platz, Bleib, Heer with yummy treats and lots of play after. I think it is true that if your dog is misbehaving you need to re-shape your behavior and work more with them. Clock in the hours and you will have a wonderfully adjusted companion. Me and Gunnar are going to start basic obediance here in Sept. Not that he needs it, he's got it all down pat for the most part but because I want to start Shutzhund training with him so I need to learn the correct way to train him. I know you and Rocky will figure out how to work together. GSD can be so stubborn at this age can't they?! Does Rocky plaster his ears back when he knows he's in trouble? It's just so pathetic looking I can't help but feel bad, LOL. He know's how to pull his mama's heartstrings.

Before I return to the battlefield........the MOST important rule in obedience and general living with a dog is...NEVER GIVE A COMMAND THAT YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO ENFORCE!!!!!! There are ways of dealing with your situation......I have used a drag line with great results. And funny as hell looking at the dogs expression as you bring it toward you and tell it I SAID COME HERE---OH WHAT A GOOD BOY YOU ARE, YOU ROTTEN DISRESPECTFUL MUTT, HAPPY, HAPPY JOY JOY, roflmao. They don't know what we say as long as we use a cheerful voice, hahahah.

[Doberluv]

To be continued........if I don't end up getting clobbered on the head by the half hanging big branch or a wayward bird feeder!!!!

LOL! Be careful. You have to come back here!

Big Dog....German Shepherds are not from another planet. They are wonderful dogs and shouldn't give you trouble. I'm experienced with that breed...had a few in my life. They are generally very willing to work along side their masters, very devoted and loyal and smart...very smart. Look what they were bred to do, take care of and herd sheep for their master. They're protective, cooperative and in my experience, easy to train, albeit quite exuberant as puppies. If they are directed and their traits channeled in the right direction, they are wonderful dogs. But they do take a long time to grow up. Be kind, gentle, fair, firm, consistant and smart about the way you handle your dog and he should be fine. Do a search on canine aggression through Google and see what you can find out.

[Manchesters]

LOL! Be careful. You have to come back here!

Big Dog....German Shepherds are not from another planet. They are wonderful dogs and shouldn't give you trouble. I'm experienced with that breed...had a few in my life. They are generally very willing to work along side their masters, very devoted and loyal and smart...very smart. Look what they were bred to do, take care of and herd sheep for their master. They're protective, cooperative and in my experience, easy to train, albeit quite exuberant as puppies. If they are directed and their traits channeled in the right direction, they are wonderful dogs. But they do take a long time to grow up. Be kind, gentle, fair, firm, consistant and smart about the way you handle your dog and he should be fine. Do a search on canine aggression through Google and see what you can find out.

Even managed to yank the dead branch loose from the tree. I will do a chain saw massacre on it later. The feeders are a bit higher up and in slightly different positions so it will take the birds a while to be able to swoop in here on auto pilot. I have a slew of the pink house finches, scads of Cardinals, Titmice, Chickadees, some wrens and a couple of sparrows. I throw dog food up onto the carport roof for the Jays, squirrels and crows (the crows are new guests just in the last 2 weeks).

I read a couple of the posts about ignoring and positive reinforcement to my sister, and she also got a chuckle out of them. She asked me "how many years do these people have to try this with, and how long before they realize it is not going to work?"

I would like to know how many have used the ignoring method with a large number of terriers, or any sight hounds? Or a variety of members of the so called working breeds (who wouldn't recognize work if it bit them in the butt, rofl)

You good hearted people forget that there are off the wall, out of the normal dogs out there. And the average pet owner is not equiped with dealing with them. Just as there can be autistic children, there can be autistic dogs. Or bipolar dogs. Now you all hand out this happy happy baloney advice and have no clue what the individual dog's problem may be. And you insult those of us who know that positive reinforcement is baloney........at least the way your preach it.

The best way to teach a dog is to give a correction for unwanted behavior (usually a quick pop with the collar and a deep firm NO), and praise when the dog does what is wanted. Many people just don't have time for that nonsensical politically correct stuff.

This is the same reason kids are running wild, killing each other, their parents and anyone else they want to. THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES. Same goes for dogs. A dog has to have firm guide lines, and know what is expected of it. You do not accomplish this by turning around in a circle, or folding your arms so a dog won't jump on you. IF this method has to be used more than 4 times on the same dog, then I would say it don't work too well!!!!!

We got really black skies outside, and I am really wiped out and need to go cool off. Hope everyone has a nice day.

[Doberluv]

Manchesters....you have these misconceptions about this. There ARE consequences. Being fair to animals and not physically mistreating them is not the same as permissiveness. My Doberman is 1 week shy of 2 yrs. old. He is at an advanced obedience level and in agility and doing well. I am not extremely ambitious about it. I skip all kinds of days working with him. He is mostly a pet, my friend, but I am having fun with this stuff. His manners are quite impeccable and have been since he was about 6-9 months old. Actually, all that was "wrong" with him was that he was a puppy. Puppy stuff. But he's been a delight ever since about 3 or 4 months, got past the initial getting use to each other and all that wild stuff. It has been the same with all my dogs and I've had a lot of dogs from puppyhood of various breeds and mixes. No, no sighthounds. But my niece has a sighthound and my old neighbors bred and raised Irish Wolfhounds. They had about 5 or 6 at a time. And they never ever smacked their dogs around. They showed them and they were well mannered, friendly, non aggressive, (to people) lovely dogs.

I think you're a great person....a lot of fun, but I don't agree with harsh treatment of animals. I have successfully helped a lot of people with their dogs and horses also. I never had to do any violence on them. That does NOT equate permissiveness...another misconception. There are ways to get YOUR own way without mistreatment of an animal. A lot of people do it. I have no problem with corrections, firmness etc, but I do have a problem with abuse or near abuse.

[Adrienne]

Please clarify your last post. I am reading it as saying that autistic or bipolar children should be raised with corrections? Have you ever dealt with an autistic or bipolar child? I have and you would do so much more damage with corrections.

Also I have had Pitbulls for the last ten years or so and the last time I checked they classified as terriers. If I didn't use postive reinforcment with them I would have never gotten anywhere. We rescued a pit that was raised in the manner of which you speak. He was terribly hard to work with, always thinking he was going to get in trouble even for doing something right so he always hesitated. He wasn't abused in the typical manner but never understood where he stood with his family. With lots of patience and consistency after about six months of postive reinforcment we were able to re-home him with a wonderful family. He now has earned his GCC and is a therapy dog. So when you say that it can't, won't, or doesn't work that just means that you have never tried it as you have admitted. And doesn't the old saying go, "don't knock it till you try it?"

[stirder]

I have used these methods with 2 jack russels, a golden retriever, 5 german shepherds, an australian cattle dog, a great dane and a wolf hybrid. it worked perfectly with all of them. just because you cant prevent yourself from hitting your dogs doesnt mean you are right. and for the record I have been around 2 autistic children and 4 kids with add almost my entire life. my sister in laws neice (my brothers wifes, sisters 2 kids have add. my cousin has add, my best friends little brother has add, and 2 friends have siblings who are autistic) and if you think that raising them with physical corrections or any form of punishment is the way to reach and teach them you are sorely mistaken and have absolutely no understanding of human behaviour. if you think hitting or physically punishing your dog is the way to teach them, you dont understand canine behaviour AT ALL.

[Doberluv]

Adrienne,

It sounds like you worked wonders on that dog. You sure must be doing something right. It's so wonderful to hear how a dog like that can be turned around with love and patience and good handling.

[yuckaduck]

I'm confused and must have missed something because I did not see where Manchesters said to correct an autistic or bi polar child; I also missed out completely where she said to hi and physical punish the dog, I don't remember reading about beating the dog to get it to respond sorry. I think you alittle to interested in putting Manchesters down in any way possible and it is starting to get rather annoying. Stick to the facts and comment on what you read not what you make up.

[Manchesters]

Manchesters....you have these misconceptions about this. There ARE consequences. Being fair to animals and not physically mistreating them is not the same as permissiveness. My Doberman is 1 week shy of 2 yrs. old. He is at an advanced obedience level and in agility and doing well. I am not extremely ambitious about it. I skip all kinds of days working with him. He is mostly a pet, my friend, but I am having fun with this stuff. His manners are quite impeccable and have been since he was about 6-9 months old. Actually, all that was "wrong" with him was that he was a puppy. Puppy stuff. But he's been a delight ever since about 3 or 4 months, got past the initial getting use to each other and all that wild stuff. It has been the same with all my dogs and I've had a lot of dogs from puppyhood of various breeds and mixes. No, no sighthounds. But my niece has a sighthound and my old neighbors bred and raised Irish Wolfhounds. They had about 5 or 6 at a time. And they never ever smacked their dogs around. They showed them and they were well mannered, friendly, non aggressive, (to people) lovely dogs.

I think you're a great person....a lot of fun, but I don't agree with harsh treatment of animals. I have successfully helped a lot of people with their dogs and horses also. I never had to do any violence on them. That does NOT equate permissiveness...another misconception. There are ways to get YOUR own way without mistreatment of an animal. A lot of people do it. I have no problem with corrections, firmness etc, but I do have a problem with abuse or near abuse.

I DO NOT TREAT MY DOGS HARSHLY!!!!!!!!! I do not physically abuse them. I TREAT THEM FIRMLY. There is a big difference. If I ask them to do something, I expect them to do it. I never ask them to do anything they shouldn't. I expect them to do their business outside unless ill. I expect them to shut up when I tell them to. I expect them to come inside when I tell them to. I expect them to sit still and let me clean their teeth and trim their nails. And I expect them to keep their teeth to themselves.

I live in a pack situation. There is a tremendous difference, and a completely different set of rules when you live with 20+ dogs. Especially when those dogs are Terriers and Sight Hounds.

Fortunately Whippets are one of the more laid back Sight Hound breeds. THey are not prone to freaking out like Afghans or Greyhounds, or Borzoi. Nor are they as treacherous around smaller animals and kids as those breeds. And Manchesters are unusual in that they can be kept in multiples.....not like the majority of the Terrier breeds that will try to kill it other if two get together (as in Kerry Blues, Scotties, Bullies, etc.

I am sorry that you got the impression that I was using the Koeler method or something similar. NEVER. It is impossible to put into writing the technique I use for the NO BITE and show how simple it really is both for owner and dog. I have a web cam....I shall maybe when I have the strength try make a demonstration video. So every can view it and go "OH!!!"

As far as grooming, I would first cut baby toenails when they were 2 weeks old so they would not rip up their mommas stomach while nursing. As I think I posted elsewhere, they would squirm and fight with all their might. There is not such thing as positive reinforcement with baby puppies. You hold them, and you cut their nails, period. Life is too short!!!!!!

As far as Ridge, he was affronted by my having the nerve to cut his nails. Terriers do not respond to B.S. They respond to "You WILL do it because I tell you that you will do it!!" Also, with many dogs that fight getting their nails cut, tying the mouth shuts prevents them from screaming and building themselves up to a panic.

I have stated, I have 20+ dogs that I can cut nails, clean teeth, clean anal glands, shove pills down their throats, shoot, and anything else that needs to be done to maintain their health and well being. I have plenty of pics on my site, and I should hope that so called "dog people" should be able to tell from those pictures if my dogs are downtrodden and browbeaten!!!!!

My home is a luxury "kennel" for my dogs. The living room has 3 400 crate bottoms with cushioned beds placed in them for laying around. 8 or so of them sleep on top of me in my recliner all the time. They have fresh food and water at all times, and me to pick on in their midst at all times. Except for the boys. They have their crates in their bedroom, with fresh food and water in their crates......there is a reason for this which I will not go into. I put the boys out at night, and we go out of this yard onto what I call lot 2 to play soccer ball, and tennis bally. They have their own patio in the back, with beds with percale sheets in them. And of course fresh water. I sleep at irregular intervals, so may be out with the boys at 2AM, and again at 4AM. I bring them in when it temp gets up near 85.

I live for these dogs. My hours are timed around these goofy dogs. I am their slave. They only let me get out of here and go to Walmart because I get their dog food there!

And I have never gotten anything but the highest praise and appreciation from those few who have been lucky enough to get a puppy from me! They are absolutely flabergasted! They get a pup that will not bite, that is crate trained, housebroken, and already exhibiting a distinct warped sense of humor! Of course most people wanting Manchesters are already familiar with the breed.

I am going to try to find the Manchester web ring.......perhaps reading about other owners dealings with their dogs might clarify things!

And as far as Misty---for heaven sake. I stood the dog up on her hind legs got nose to nose with her, and told her to knock it off. Period. You cannot "ROLL" and 80 Dobe, and I was not about to try. You correct a dog by getting them in a submissive position--usually with the front feet off the ground. No big deal! No abuse, no harsh treatment, and cured the problem. She never snapped at another puppy!!!!!!

I am pooped.............

[Adrienne]

I'm confused and must have missed something because I did not see where Manchesters said to correct an autistic or bi polar child; I also missed out completely where she said to hi and physical punish the dog, I don't remember reading about beating the dog to get it to respond sorry. I think you alittle to interested in putting Manchesters down in any way possible and it is starting to get rather annoying. Stick to the facts and comment on what you read not what you make up.

I am pretty sure that Manchester can stand up for herself and I asked her to please clarify her post per her request and others to not just jump on someone. I didn't see anyone accusing her of beating her dogs either and I am certainly not interested in wasting my time putting someone down. I did stick to the facts and if you find it annoying then leave it be eh?

[yuckaduck]

Adrienne you really enjoy fighting don't you. I was talking about Stirders final comment about hitting and physically punishing dogs. If you don't like me sticking up for someone than don't make comments that require it. I will not stand by and watch anyone jump on anyone needlessly. I jumped all over Manchesters when she made comments that I found to be tasteless and I will defend anyone who needs defending in my opinion. This is not a gang war here.

[Manchesters]

It is impossible to explain to people who have no concept of living in a mutliple dog environment, and several of whom cannot take in what they read how I do what I do. And why I do it. Every dog is an individual. And Manchesters are totally different from other breeds. There is a reason there are so few of them as pets in the country, so few being bred, and virtually NONE in obedience. Pitbulls are stubborn, thickheaded clods, more or less. They are mutts, and are not even recognized in the United States. AKC does recognize the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Staffordshire Terrier.

Pit Bulls have absolutely no consistency in temperment. They are buzzard bred! Buzzard=another word meaning a child born out of wedlock, lol.

I am sure that many here have seen a cat that has freaked out and is clawing and biting the heck out of the nearest person. Many of the Sight Hound breeds react the same way to certain senarios. And see, ya can't condition them, because you NEVER know when and why they are going to freak out! Saw and Affie freak once because a bird flew overhead!!!!! Guess why there ain't no Afghans, Greyhounds, Borzoi or Deerhounds, or Basenjis in obedience? Rofl.

You people are kind and patient, and I appreciate that, but you have no idea of the complete picture because you have not been around large numbers of the various breeds of dogs. Now, I have not lived with every breed there is, but because of the extensive grapevine in the dog showing world, we are able to learn from others experiences.
I can tell you what to look for when living with a Mastiff, a Bull Terrier, most of the herding breeds, sporting breeds and such. And be pretty darned accurate. It took years and years of research and education to learn all this.

The pet population has no concept of what is involved in living with, training and conditioning dogs. I have had hundreds of dogs in my life over the years. And I have loved, trained and done right by all of them.

I could have several come to this forum and sing my praises, but they can't be bothered. They all have disdain for the "pet mentallity" as they call it. In fact my friend Liz quit her job at a vet's office because she got sick of all the "pet" stupidity and politically correct bull shavick. One idiot "tech" got scratched to heck because she didn't like the way Liz was holding the cat (Liz was hurting it, because the skin of the face was pulled back to the scruff in Liz's hand) and decided to hold it herself. Cat ate her alive!!!!!!!!!! And Liz laughed. And so did I when I heard about it.

Anyway, there is a wide gap between dog folks and pet owners. Now if anyone in here who can read and write correctly has shown in obedience and titled some dogs, and been involved in the same for 20+ years, I would expect that might be able to picture what I am saying when I say it. It is hard to WRITE pictures! I don't know why I even bother trying, really. I am too old, and life is too short.

Especially when all anyone gets out of what I say is that I sling my dogs around and abuse them and beat them.

And NO strider, I did NOT say to beat or correct autitic kids. WHAT I said was that some dogs might be the equivalent of autistic kids, and general training suggestions would not work for them. Jeeeezzzzz!

[Manchesters]

I am pretty sure that Manchester can stand up for herself and I asked her to please clarify her post per her request and others to not just jump on someone. I didn't see anyone accusing her of beating her dogs either and I am certainly not interested in wasting my time putting someone down. I did stick to the facts and if you find it annoying then leave it be eh?

I believe Yuckaduck was referring to the crap written by Strider. What bugs me is that you know someone who cannot spell cannot recoginze enough words to even get the gist of what someone is trying to say. Especially if that person uses polysyllabic words.

Here is what Stider wrote---completely missing the entire point of everything I have said............

<<I have used these methods with 2 jack russels, a golden retriever, 5 german shepherds, an australian cattle dog, a great dane and a wolf hybrid. it worked perfectly with all of them. {{ just because you cant prevent yourself from hitting your dogs doesnt mean you are right.}} and for the record I have been around 2 autistic children and 4 kids with add almost my entire life. my sister in laws neice (my brothers wifes, sisters 2 kids have add. my cousin has add, my best friends little brother has add, and 2 friends have siblings who are autistic) and if you think that raising them with physical corrections or any form of punishment is the way to reach and teach them you are sorely mistaken and have absolutely no understanding of human behaviour. if you think hitting or physically punishing your dog is the way to teach them, you dont understand canine behaviour AT ALL.>>

I mean, I give up. If people do not comprehend what I am saying, that is THEIR short coming.......not mine! And to be accused by people that don't even know what they are talking about is downright insulting. And beneath my dignity.

So you all continue giving your well intentioned generalized advice and suggestions, and we will see just how much success people have using it. BigDog is a shining example, as I see it, lol. And you tell him it is HIS fault because he isn't doing things right. Do any of you have any experience with a fear biting Shepherd? Bet not.

Anyhow, again I hope all have a great night.

[Fran27]

Bigdog tried it how long... 3 months? It takes more time than that. It took me over 6 months with Boris to get him to actually listen to me, and stop jumping and nipping at me. But it worked. He still does it, but when he's totally excited, and if I turn my back he will stop in 5 seconds.

I think the question people have to ask themselves is what kind of relationship they want to have with their dog. Do they want to be the master, or to be a friend? I'm sure that using traditional methods will make an obedient dog, but at what price? A dog that cowers when he thinks he made a mistake?

That's going to sound stupid, but if your dog trusts you, he will tend to listen to you more. And I don't think my dog would trust me half as much if I was violent with him when he makes a mistake...

[Richie12345]

I haven't read any of this thread except for the first post, Manchesters... Just outta curiousity... You breed your dogs? Do they come when they are called? Or do you whip them if they don't? Do they lick you in the face? Are they good around people? Just wonderin, I have never seen any dogs that have been taught the "old school" way...

[Manchesters]

Bigdog tried it how long... 3 months? It takes more time than that. It took me over 6 months with Boris to get him to actually listen to me, and stop jumping and nipping at me. But it worked. He still does it, but when he's totally excited, and if I turn my back he will stop in 5 seconds.

I think the question people have to ask themselves is what kind of relationship they want to have with their dog. Do they want to be the master, or to be a friend? I'm sure that using traditional methods will make an obedient dog, but at what price? A dog that cowers when he thinks he made a mistake?

That's going to sound stupid, but if your dog trusts you, he will tend to listen to you more. And I don't think my dog would trust me half as much if I was violent with him when he makes a mistake...

First to answer your question Fran......no no one should want to be their dogs friend. We HAVE to be regarded as the master. That is not my opinon, that is fact. Again, if you have time check into wolf pack relationships.

I just now read the crap that Doberluv wrote implying that I smack my dogs around. I am sorry if people are so inexperience and immature that they cannot comprehend the written word. And I am sorry that I cannot be bothered providing videos demonstrating how I work with my dogs. The Bible says to not be given to vain disputations. If people do not like the manner in which I say what I say, then they have a problem. I do not have the time or strength to play politically correct games. I say what I say as best I can. Those who have bred, shown and titled dogs in obedience know what I am saying. They have their own experiences to rely on to picture what I am saying.

It is asinine for someone such as myself to even waste time over and over and over to try to explain in words of one syllable what I am saying. If any of you don't get it, it ain't my fault. And you are a bunch of very mean spirited people to ASSUME that someone such as myself abuses and beats my dogs. I would go so far as to say a few other things......but why? I am known and respected by my peers. That is what counts. Those outside of the dog show world have no clue, and no experience to compare with.

I am tired of being insulted by those to totally inexperienced to understand what I am saying. It is NOT my job to educate those who have no interest, and only resent someone who will not submit to their meaness! I KNOW who I am. I KNOW my value. And so does anyone who knows me!

I am sorry for you folks, but it would seem that you prefer to run around in a pack, and kick those you think are down! Maybe down, but not out, rofl.

I wish you a good night.

[Doberluv]

crap? A-w-w-w com'n Manchesters. Say it isn't so..... Pleeeeeeze???? pretty pleeeeze. LOL. :cool:

Gotta luv ya! LOL. ;)

[Babyblue5290]

You don't have to be a "master" to have a well behaved dog!! You have to be the "leader"! A dog that respects you is a lot better then a dog that fears you.

[yuckaduck]

I still don't see why anyone is saying Manchesters beats her dogs. Richie why are jumping on this band wagon? Do you think a dog would ever come when it was called if it was whipped? No and no where did read a sujestion of such stupidity. Why are some of you making up such nonsense? I guess because of one tactless posts everyone decides to attack and continue attacking Manchesters. Grow up! I can only hope to be as perfect as those who continue to preach such utter stupidity.

[BigDog2191]

I agree with Manchesters...

Fran, 3 months happens to be a long time for me...

[Richie12345]

Maybe I misread, some of Manchester's post have been a little wierd. But didn't Manchester say she beat her dogs? I also heard that she says she ties a dog's mouth shut whenever she clips the nails.

Maybe I kinda read it wrong, cus I got a little angry. I apoligize if I missread

[Melissa_W]

Well, I'm new here, so this may be an unwelcome intrusion. But it seems to me that some people here are just waiting for Manchesters to say something that they can construe as negative and then jump on her about it. Obviously she has her way, and it works for her. And others such as Doberluv have their way and it works for them. And from what I've seen, Manchesters never said that she "beats" her dogs. She stood a dog on it's hind legs, looked it in the eye, and shook it. She also said she uses the collar for corrections many times. I don't recall her saying a thing about whipping dogs or anything of that nature. I think she just has a different philosophy than many of you. But I thought that the purpose of a forum like this was for people to share their ideas. I think it would be pretty boring here if everyone did NILIF. That's how I see it at least!

[Melissa_W]

I don't think tying the mouth shut should be considered abuse. It may not be your way of going about things, but it's not abuse. I personally don't have to do it with Skye, but when I worked at a vet's office, dogs were muzzled for certain procedures all the time.

[Manchesters]

Maybe I misread, some of Manchester's post have been a little wierd. But didn't Manchester say she beat her dogs? I also heard that she says she ties a dog's mouth shut whenever she clips the nails.

Maybe I kinda read it wrong, cus I got a little angry. I apoligize if I missread

I could say of course you