Why crop ears?

[Fran27]

I'm just curious, why do some breeds require to have ears cropped?

[wildwings811]

It is not a matter of requirement it is a matter of preference in no breed standard does it say it is "required" it is a "cosmetic" procedure in most cases it just improves the look of the dog

[Fran27]

Ok, it's what I thought. I think it's sad :( I've heard they want to change the breed in Europe because of it too...

[wildwings811]

What breed??

My personal opinion is that I rather have a dog with cropped ears I just prefer the look on some breeds such as

Dobermans
Schnauzers (miniature, standard, and giant)
Great Danes
Bouvier
Boxer
Great Dane
Affenpinscher
Manchester Terrier
Miniature Pinscher
Schipperke

The breed's I don't like cropped ears on are

Am. Staff
Pittbull
or any of the other bully breeds

You know in some states it is illegal to crop and it is extremlly hard to find a vet to cropo ears here in MI the clinic I work at does not crop ears

[Fran27]

Well to each his own, I think it's cruel personally to do such a thing to a dog just because we think he would 'look better'. Ugh, makes me angry just ot think about it... Will you change your kid's nose if it doesn't look nice enough for you?

[wildwings811]

No I don't have kids but......

Like I said before it is a matter of preferance and the fact is that the pups don't even really remember it no vet that I know of will do it after 16 weeks of age and most do it before they are even sold to a new home

[Tail_Chaser]

here's what some breed standards say about cropping the ears: A dogs keenest sense, that of hearing, is enhanced by the cropped, erect ears and makes him an instinctive guard dog, always alert. (note this is for that type of "guard' or working dog) Some hunting breeds dogs' ears and tails were cropped to make them less available as targets for other animals that they might fight with. In dogs used for guarding property docked ears often makes the breed appear more ferocious; hanging ears are reminiscent of the naturally droopy ears of puppies, looking more cute than dangerous.

AKC (american kennel club) statement; that cropping and docking are "acceptable practices integral to defining and preserving breed character and/or enhancing good health"

Of course it's up to the owners to have the procedures done and it doesn't effect the other characteristics of a dog that you love. I guess here in America everyone just has to get used to seeing all those breeds that usually have tails docked and ears cropped without the procedure, before it becomes a less common practice. What breed were you referring to there in Europe Fran?

[Doberluv]

http://bakaridobes.westhost.com/publiceducation/PECEars.html

Please take a look at this very educational site which should also ease your mind if you have worries.

[Richie12345]

I heard it improves airflow in the ears

[stirder]

the original reason for cropping ears and docking tails was for working and hunting breeds. for instance a dog bred for hunting wild boar is more likely to be injured in a fight if it has its tail and ears...something else for the pig or wolf or whatever to grab onto, hurt the dog and give the wolf an advantage in the fight...while the dog is yelping and recovering from the shock and pain the wolf is grabbing its throat. for a doberman going door to door with a tax collector the ears and tail were something for angry tax payers and/or theaves to grab onto in same way as above.
today it is purely asthetics...looks. no breed standard requires cropped ears or docked tails. in german and other european contries it is now illegal to crop a dogs ears because it serves no purpose but the vanity of the owner. in america not cropping and/or docking is a growing trend, and controversy. it improves air flow but according to veterinarians it isnt a problem at all to have floppy ears. if it was a serious problem labs, goldens, and every other flop eared dog in the world would have cropped ears. you just have to clean the ears more frequently, you have to clean the ears of a dog with erect ears too, just not as often.
my personal opinion...they look better with natural ears and tails. if you dont like the looks of a natural eared/tailed dobie or other breed...get something else.

[EliNHunter]

the original reason for cropping ears and docking tails was for working and hunting breeds. for instance a dog bred for hunting wild boar is more likely to be injured in a fight if it has its tail and ears...something else for the pig or wolf or whatever to grab onto, hurt the dog and give the wolf an advantage in the fight...while the dog is yelping and recovering from the shock and pain the wolf is grabbing its throat. for a doberman going door to door with a tax collector the ears and tail were something for angry tax payers and/or theaves to grab onto in same way as above.
today it is purely asthetics...looks. no breed standard requires cropped ears or docked tails. in german and other european contries it is now illegal to crop a dogs ears because it serves no purpose but the vanity of the owner. in america not cropping and/or docking is a growing trend, and controversy. it improves air flow but according to veterinarians it isnt a problem at all to have floppy ears. if it was a serious problem labs, goldens, and every other flop eared dog in the world would have cropped ears. you just have to clean the ears more frequently, you have to clean the ears of a dog with erect ears too, just not as often.
my personal opinion...they look better with natural ears and tails. if you dont like the looks of a natural eared/tailed dobie or other breed...get something else.

Ahmen, stirder! It's truly the owner's vanity. Just like the freaks that get their intact male neutered only to inject "Nuticles" into the sacs. I had to witness a baby pig getting it's tail cut off when I was younger. It screamed bloody murder and was just a horrific scene. If people's reasoning is that "they just forget about it"... well, forget about that!! I would like to see all dobermans, for instance, in their natural state of floppy ears and a long tail. But that's just my opinion... buy anyone's welcome to it! :D

[wildwings811]

Well I for one have been raised around Dobermans my whole life and know for a fact that getting their tails docked and ears cropped are not a mind altering experience for them sure it hurts when the procedure is done and over with but it does not bother them later in life and if you think that they lay around and say "Man I wish that my owner/ breeder wouldn't have cropped my ears or docked my tail" it has been going on for years sure it is for the "vanity" but it is also a preference and preference is that my Dobes have their ears cropped and their tails docked to me that is a "natural" Doberman not the long tailed floppy eard dogs

In my opinion the ones with the floppy ears and the undocked tails are poorly bred and obviously not cared about you would never see an irresponsible Doberman Pinscher breeder that does not dock or crop their dogs unless it was against the law and I know that any true Doberman enthusiast would agree with me

[Tail_Chaser]

ElinHunter-Yes sometimes it is neccessary in livestock to have docked tails, and also some ear notching also as a means of identification. Commercially raised animals are kept in close quarters, so tail docking is performed to prevent injury or to prevent animals from chewing or biting each others' tails. In sheep tails may be docked for sanitary reasons. If the tail is not docked, this can lead to flystrike, an infestation of maggots. Gross!!

I've not heard of these "nuticles" before. Is that like fake testicles? That does seem strange! :confused:

umm...I wouldn't go as far as saying that b/c an owner chose not to have their dogs ears cropped or tail docked that they were irresponsible or didn't care about their dog, that's a little extreme.

[Adrienne]

I for one love the natural look on all breeds that are cropped/docked but I also have to take into account that some breeds should have their tails docked to prevent them from breaking and splitting. My cousin has a pit and anyone who has met one knows that they have whip like tails. Anyways this past winter her dog cracked her tail on something and it continuously bled. It would scab for awhile and then as soon as she whacked it on something it would break open again. She did not dock her dogs tail but it was a really big pain in the butt, blood splattered all over the place in the house. So in a case like that I can see why you would dock a tail.

[wildwings811]

No I really don't think so because responsible Doberman Pinscher breeders dock and crop their puppies before they even leave the kennel unless it is requested by the new owner to not be done but a truly responsible Doberman breeder would be reluctent to fulfill this request :)

[Tail_Chaser]

why? :confused:

[Manchesters]

The procedure is done under anesthesia. Ear cartilage has no nerve endings. The ONLY after effect that I ever noticed (Dobes were my first breed 30 years ago--I worked my way down in size over the years, rofl) was the reaction to the dogs being able to feel air in their ears for the first time--a kind of been tickled in the ears reaction.

The edges of the ears are kept slathered down with antibiotic ointment so that they do not get crusted or puckered. And they are healed within 10 days.

One other thing that does have to be watched for is when the puppy tries to run under an object that it used to be able to duck its head and fit under. Now the pup can rip the rack off its head doing that. THAT can hurt the ears!

[Manchesters]

MANY people are of the opinion that Greyhounds and Whippets should have their tails docked! Both have tails that are lethal weapons, and Greyhounds are notorious for breaking their tails, and the things never healing.

I also know many, many GSD people who would desperately love to dock their dogs tails!!!!!!! Rofl.

[Manchesters]

To TAILchaser for the topic of these last couple of posts, roflmbo. :D

[wildwings811]

Tailchaser- it is not the matter of the creulty it is a matter of integrity Dobermans have had their ears cropped and tails docked for many years to many Doberman people that is a "true" Dobe not the floppy ear'd long tailed dogs

Again it is a matter of preference but true responsible breeders are true to the dogs integrity rather than trying to be "morally" correct when it comes to the fact of to crop/dock or not

Manchesters- that was my point it don't really hurt it may be slightly painful for the first week or two after the procedure but after that it is not that big of a deal and my opinion is that it really makes the breed a Dobe is suppose to have a docked tail and cropped ears don't you agree??

[Tail_Chaser]

huh? what is so funny

[Manchesters]

huh? what is so funny

I forget not everyone has my finely honed English sense of humor, rofl.

What was funny was posting about cutting off dog tails when there is a kindly poster named TAILchaser taking part in the thread.

[Manchesters]

Tailchaser- it is not the matter of the creulty it is a matter of integrity Dobermans have had their ears cropped and tails docked for many years to many Doberman people that is a "true" Dobe not the floppy ear'd long tailed dogs

Again it is a matter of preference but true responsible breeders are true to the dogs integrity rather than trying to be "morally" correct when it comes to the fact of to crop/dock or not

Manchesters- that was my point it don't really hurt it may be slightly painful for the first week or two after the procedure but after that it is not that big of a deal and my opinion is that it really makes the breed a Dobe is suppose to have a docked tail and cropped ears don't you agree??

A Dobe that is uncropped and undocked looks just a a Black and Tan Coonhound. I am not fond of droopy ears. Except of course on Bloodhounds and Bassets, which are kinda "Floppy Eared" breeds. I mean they are noted for the LOOONNGG floppy ears they have! But there again, the heads are huge and go very esthetically with those big ole ears!!

Please to note tho---Toy Manchesters have naturally erect ears. No cutting allowed. The Standard variety can have either button ears, naturally erect ears (that is something to see--Standards have HUGE ears, lol) or cropped ears.

The English call the Toy Manchester ear a "candle flame" ear. That is exactly the shape, especially when looked at from behind! So I guess you could say I cheat and skirt the issue by having the TMTs!

[Tail_Chaser]

OMG! i didnot even see the irony! that is very funny, now i'm lmbo! Maybe you didn't see my introduction when i joined, it explained my screen name. http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8011

not to be contradictory wild__ but does appearance mean integrity to you? shouldn't it be the characteristics of the dog and it's demeanor.

[wildwings811]

No apperance is not integrity but when a breed of dog has been docked/ cropped for as many years as a Dobe than it just seems au-natural to see a cropped/ docked Dobe

[wildwings811]

Manchesters- after I posted about the MT's I looked it up misinformation sorry we have a lady that has a TMT that comes to the clinic and her dogs ears are actually cropped

[Tail_Chaser]

gotcha. gotta sign off now, early start to work in the morning. buenos noches

[stirder]

sur eit doesnt hurt forever and doesnt alter their personality, I have no doubts about that. I just disagree with physically altering a dog to make it look different than it was bred to be. if heir dobermans intentions were to breed a dog with a short tail and erect ears, he should have done so. their are breeds born with stumpy tails. and you say no reputable breeder would neglect to crop the ears and dock the tail before sending the pups to new homes unless requested by the buyer? and then they would be reluctant to do so?? I dont remember the name but 3 of the breeders of best of breed westminster champions said they prefer natural dobies, and only show cropped/docked dogs because thats what wins.
do you know why Germany banned cropping and docking of the doberman??? because the german breeders requested that cropping/docking be banned. they had a majority vote. so the majority of german breeders are irresponsible??? give me a break. last month I contacted the doberman pinscher club of america requesting a list of breeders that they refer. I contacted via email over 35 breeders in the south, midwest, and western states such as arizona, nevada, colorado, oregon and california. I mentioned in the first email to each of them (all I did was write one email and then copy and paste it to send each time) that I wanted a natural dobe. EVERY ONE OF THEM said "okay, that is not a problem. the pup will be available to go home at 8-9 weeks old." know how many were happy to hear that I wanted natural ears? (I didnt say anything about tails because they are docked before my pup would be picked out) 28 breeders, reffered by the breeds club, were happy to hear it.
now if I had been asking about a show pup...maybe youd be right, I dont know.
I just have to ask you this...would you feel the same if your parents had decided to cut off half of your ears when you were a baby? because they felt it made you look better??? it was their preference? would you still think vanity is a valid reason to surgically alter a breed or person???

just wanted to add...yes I am passionate about this issue...I DO respect your opinion. you have the right to feel how you do. I just very strongly disagree with you. I do respect YOU, and your opinion.

[bubbatd]

Geeez.... since Goldens have ear problems ( swimming ) and tail problems ( coffee table items) should we start docking ???? I really haven't looked into this, but when and how these "docked" breeds of dogs begin ??? To me the natural breed is the accepted breed . I'm sorry that the show ring changed the rules .

[Manchesters]

OMG! i didnot even see the irony! that is very funny, now i'm lmbo! Maybe you didn't see my introduction when i joined, it explained my screen name. http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8011

not to be contradictory wild__ but does appearance mean integrity to you? shouldn't it be the characteristics of the dog and it's demeanor.

For that double entendre!!!!!! Where the issue of integrity comes in is based in the fact that a reputable breeder of Dobes will have the cropping done, and keep the pups until the ears are healed up, so that the new owner does not have the upset of dealing with it. A disreputable breeder is out only to make money, and so will foist the expense and work involved in cropping onto the poor new, unsuspecting puppy owner. That is not ethical! Of course we are talking breeders here who generally are NOT the ones that advertise 8 week old puppies in the newspaper, or on the internet. These are breeders who generally have a year or so waiting list, and who you PRAY will have a pet quality pup they will sell to you! Sadly most of these top of the line breeders are mostly gone now.

And son, be careful---you might just have the bad luck of CATCHING some of that tail someday!!!!!! And you may just end up wishing that little piece of tail had been DOCKED, before you end up loosing YOUR arse!!!!!!!!!!!! I may be old, but Maxine ain't got a thing on me!!!!! Bwaahahahah! :D

[stirder]

the problem with the american showring is that the standards dont always matter, it is public opinion that matters. just look at the gsd. the standard calls for working ability, but none of the american show winners have been worked in any field. the standard calls for a straight, not sloped, back. every gsd you see in an american show has a severely sloped back. the doberman standard doesnt require cropped ears OR docked tails, have you ever seen a dobe in the show ring without cropped ears and docked tail??? american show judges dont care about standards, which are what they are supposed to base their judgment on. just look at this site to see what I mean about the american gsd http://www.workingdogs.com/lshaw1.htm

[Manchesters]

Her Dobermann DID cut off the ears and tails of his dogs to NUBS, so that the person the dog attacked had nothing to grab to protect himself. There are numerous breeds that have the ears cropped...not just limited to Dobermans.

I know of thousands of humans who pierce their babies ears. Same as doing ears on Dobes and other dogs. Cartilege (I have my spell checker turned off so excuse any stupid spell errors!) has no nerves. The dogs are knocked out to cut the ears and don't feel a thing. There is no pain after the dog wakes up. So what is the problem? None that I can see......except for those who have never been around a dog that has had the procedure done, and who have no concept of what the dog experiences. So often people anthromorphisize!!!!! (that is no word to use with spell check turned off, roflmbo).

[stirder]

every breeder I called did not advertise. the only way to get their contact info was to go through the breed club. the shortest waiting list was 14 months. everyone of them did the ears before sending them to homes. they also said it might be more than 14 months (or more than the amount of time they told me, depending on the breeder) before a "pet quality" pup became available because they already had many people on the list for a pet quality pup. said it was possible that every pup in the upcoming litters would be pet quality and I could get one in 14 months, but most likely it would be longer because not every pup would be pet quality. as I said, every single one of these breeders was okay with me taking a pet quality puppy with natural ears. and the majority were thrilled that I wanted natural ears because they are trying to promote them. obviously I didnt go with a doberman because I was contacting these breeders to learn more about the breed and decide if it was right for my wife and me. every one of them was more than happy to speak with me any time and answer any questions I asked. every one of them required ofa certification at 24 months even though they required that the pup be neutered or spayed. if I didnt neuter or spay the dog, they would take me to court and take back the dog, and if I lost I would be required to pay their court costs. I had to prove that the dog was altered, and I ould have had to prove to them that the dog had been ofa certified. they required ofa to keep track of what the sire and ***** produced. every one of them required a home check before my name could be placed on the waiting list. and they did not require a contract garaunteeing that I would purchase a pup after my name was on the list.
personally I would say these were extremely responsible breeders. the amount of money they spend on travel expenses to do home checks, and not require you to purchase a puppy after it? the extent of the contracts? the not only willingness but desire to answer questions, the more questions the happier they were? these were not even close to being irresponsible breeders but every one of them said they are trying to push for a ban of cropped ears and docked tails.

[stirder]

okay first off, I was the first person to point out that they were cropped and docked from the beginning of the breed. thats not what I asked. I said if thats what was wanted then why didnt he BREED that trait into them? and why has the standard never required it? and I have been around them. my neighbors growing up had 3 dobies and I watched them go through it, I even said earlier that I KNOW it doesnt hurt. I had a friend AND a cousin who each had several great danes and had their ears done as puppies.
and its not the same as peircing the ears, your not peircing them. you are cutting half of the ear off. no breed in the world with naturally erect ears has ears which look like those of a doberman with cropped ears. in the future dont just skim my posts and then argue against them. your arguments just now were rediculous because they didnt argue against anything I said.

[Manchesters]

okay first off, I was the first person to point out that they were cropped and docked from the beginning of the breed. thats not what I asked. I said if thats what was wanted then why didnt he BREED that trait into them? and why has the standard never required it? and I have been around them. my neighbors growing up had 3 dobies and I watched them go through it, I even said earlier that I KNOW it doesnt hurt. I had a friend AND a cousin who each had several great danes and had their ears done as puppies.
and its not the same as peircing the ears, your not peircing them. you are cutting half of the ear off. no breed in the world with naturally erect ears has ears which look like those of a doberman with cropped ears. in the future dont just skim my posts and then argue against them. your arguments just now were rediculous because they didnt argue against anything I said.

Sorry, I didn't realize this was an arguement. The answer to cropping ears is very simple.....people do it because they want to acheive the look that is gives. And no, you do NOT cut off half of the ear. You cut off a very thin strip from the very edge of the ear. Well, let me change that statement........if you want a pleasing look to the ear that is what you do. There are some that have hack jobs done on the ears.....like Pit Bulls and such.

Oh, and those dogs with naturally erect ears do not have as clean a look to the head as those dogs with cropped ears. I know you likely don't have a point of reference for that......just trust me, lol.

And yes, it totally relates to people piercing their kids ears.........look up the word esthetics. That is why people crop dog ears, and why they often pierce their childrens ears!

Unfortunately you can't acheive everything via breeding. You can acheive a higher earset, and thinner ear leather, which will help the ears to eventually stand.

And I have a suspicion that some of those breeders you talked to were just passing you off with their 14 month waiting lists. Being polite. The majority want their pups to go to show homes and tend to brush off people looking for pets. Doberman breeders are an elitist bunch of folks. Almost as bad as we Manchester people are, rofl. Did any of them give you a price? Most I know would quote $1500 just to scare people off.

Anyway, it is the concern only of the individual person who gets a dog with normally cropped ears whether he/she wants the ears cropped. If it annoys you, then don't bother yourself with the issue!! There is enough other stuff to be annoyed about!

[Manchesters]

okay first off, I was the first person to point out that they were cropped and docked from the beginning of the breed. thats not what I asked. I said if thats what was wanted then why didnt he BREED that trait into them? and why has the standard never required it? and I have been around them. my neighbors growing up had 3 dobies and I watched them go through it, I even said earlier that I KNOW it doesnt hurt. I had a friend AND a cousin who each had several great danes and had their ears done as puppies.
and its not the same as peircing the ears, your not peircing them. you are cutting half of the ear off. no breed in the world with naturally erect ears has ears which look like those of a doberman with cropped ears. in the future dont just skim my posts and then argue against them. your arguments just now were rediculous because they didnt argue against anything I said.

The Breed Standard requires docking................
<<Chest broad with forechest well defined. Ribs well sprung from the spine, but flattened in lower end to permit elbow clearance. Brisket reaching deep to the elbow. Belly well tucked up, extending in a curved line from the brisket. Loins wide and muscled. Hips broad and in proportion to body, breadth of hips being approximately equal to breadth of body at rib cage and shoulders. {Tail docked at approximately second joint, appears to be a continuation of the spine}, and is carried only slightly above the horizontal when the dog is alert>>

[mrose_s]

Cartilege (I have my spell checker turned off so excuse any stupid spell errors!) has no nerves. The dogs are knocked out to cut the ears and don't feel a thing. There is no pain after the dog wakes up. So what is the problem? None that I can see......except for those who have never been around a dog that has had the procedure done, and who have no concept of what the dog experiences. So often people anthromorphisize!!!!! (that is no word to use with spell check turned off, roflmbo).

But it is proven that cropping a puppies ears is VERY painful for them. Even owners with their dogs ears cropped admit it is a painful procedure.

[mrose_s]

and stirder, I agree, we could have bred that trait into them but chose not to, we actually bred in the floppy ears. I think natural ears look a lot nicer anyway. and the judges sometimes dont even read the standards.

[mrose_s]

and cutting off an ear, whether it be half of it or a "thin strip" is still atrocious in my opinion. It is NOT like peircing ears (i had mine done when i was 6) and i believe does hurt a lot

[Tail_Chaser]

Lets see (besides Dobes) there's...Great Danes, Boxers, Miniature Schnauzer, Kangal Dogs, Pit Bulls...that's all I can think of right now, (it's too early to think!) What other breeds commonly have this procedure?

[Manchesters]

But it is proven that cropping a puppies ears is VERY painful for them. Even owners with their dogs ears cropped admit it is a painful procedure.

No, it has NOT been proven. And for those who simply cannot get he point, what I said was that people get dogs' ears cropped for the same reason they pierce their children's ears---THEY LIKE THE WAY IT LOOKS.

I BRED Dobes, I SHOWED Dobes. I know what I am talking about. And I am glad to meet a genetics expert who knows what could have been bred into a breed. Wonder why no body ever did it????? Those stand up ears would sure save a bunch of money. Rofl.

[Doberluv]

I said if thats what was wanted then why didnt he BREED that trait into them?

I'll use Dobermans for the example since that is what I have. To breed a good Doberman is no easy task. First you have to find the best dogs who have the best outlook as far as the genetic health issues are concerned. In all lines there is dilated cardiomyopathy and cancers. There is a propensity to liver problems, cervical vertebral instability, (wobblers sydrome) thyroid malfunction, skin problems, temperament problems, occasionally hip dysplasia (although not a huge problem in Dobes) Von Willebrand's disease (a bleeding disorder, like hemophilia sort of). Then you have to find Dobermans who have excellent conformation, correct size and lines that had relatively good longevity.... and then there's the pedigree to consider, seeing as how there is a rather small gene pool at their disposal. There are even more things to consider than I am even bringing up. Now, what would you have to do to breed upright ears into these dogs? You'd have to first find the optimum dogs with everything going for them in the areas I mentioned and then find out of those some dogs who happen to have ears which are a little shorter than some because you'd have to gradually breed and breed those shorter eared dogs to get that trait "built in." How hard would that be? What kind of liklihood would there be to find such Dobermans when there isn't a whole lot to choose from in the first place? You see? Not only would it be impractical, but more like...impossible.

Ear cropping is done on cartilige. Sure, it's painful for about two days. Cartilege doesn't have as many nerve endings as other tissue. The pups are given pain meds for those first couple days. The healing occurs very quickly. My breeder said that after a couple of days, when she'd clean the ears, the pups would lean into the cotton ball as though the ears itched. There was no pain that she could see unless something were to pinch or ram into the ears. Dogs are quite tolerant of pain. They are also protected with a cup on their head for a little while which is used to hold them upright.

There are more reasons for cropping than cosmetic. Here is a site which will explain those and will hopefully help in educating those who don't understand really what goes on.

http://bakaridobes.westhost.com/publiceducation/PECEars.html

[nedim]

If I may just interfere for a second. I'm curious now. How did breeds such as corgis and gsd's develop naturally erect ears?

[stirder]

it couldnt be bred into them??? why do so many other breeds have erect ears??? why is it that several breeders in the southern united states have bred a coonhound with erect ears??? and no it isnt a thin strip. it is a thin strip at the base of the ear, that gets larger at the top of the ear and is shaped like a triangle. and yes they didnt want to sell pet quality puppies, or rather to be honest they didnt want to BREED pet quality puppies. however they were not ignorant and know that no matter how great the parents are there could very easily be pet quality puppies in the litter. no show or working sire x ***** have ever produced a only work/show quality litter unless they only produced one or 2 puppies. what price did they quote me? the lowest was $1,200. if I had gone with a breeder I would have been going with the one who struck me as the most responsible with a possibility of a 14 month waiting list, also possible that it could be 28 months as he couldnt garauntee quantity of puppies in a litter, let alone pet quality puppies...his price for pet quality was $2,200 including ear cropping and all vet and feed etc bills untill the ears were ready to be un-taped...for a natural eared pet quality puppy his price was $1,800. both prices were not including shipping.
okay heres a question...you say it is exactly like peircing the ears. well, I just asked my wifes aunt, who is the head nurse at the neo-natal ward, how many parents have peirced their babies ears? in the 10 years she has been in charge their, she said 2 babies. they ask the parents why and they say "because they will want it done when they are older, but right now it will hurt less and/or they will get over it faster." would your doberman puppies get their ears cropped when they are older if you didnt do it to them??? see, most people on this board think of our pets as our children. we would never perform a surgery or physically altering process on them unless it was to improve their health or quality of life (neutering/spaying). we love them the way they are and might wish they didnt do certain things but we would never physically alter them unless it was for their own good.

[stirder]

breeds with naturally erect ears had them bred into them. take the gsd for example. max used german farm dogs which ranged in size and appearance from looking similar to australian shepherds, border collies, english shepherds, collies, some of which had erect ears and some didnt. he also injected some canadian wolf into the mix. selective breeding chose the traits, however it was working ability max was breeding for. according to his book and to quotes and books written by those who helped him, the only concern they had for appearance was to not breed white dogs. no-one back then understood genetics and thought a white dogs pups would be more prone to albinism.
the fellows in alabama, I think, who are creating erect eared coon hounds are not introducing any other breed. I think they are plott hounds but not positive. they are breeding individuals with stronger cartilage in the ears. so far they have bred 2 generations and each one has shown a 10% increase in ear erection. I think it was part of a study being done by a vet or biology school.

[nedim]

breeds with naturally erect ears had them bred into them. take the gsd for example. max used german farm dogs which ranged in size and appearance from looking similar to australian shepherds, border collies, english shepherds, collies, some of which had erect ears and some didnt. he also injected some canadian wolf into the mix. selective breeding chose the traits, however it was working ability max was breeding for. according to his book and to quotes and books written by those who helped him, the only concern they had for appearance was to not breed white dogs. no-one back then understood genetics and thought a white dogs pups would be more prone to albinism.
the fellows in alabama, I think, who are creating erect eared coon hounds are not introducing any other breed. I think they are plott hounds but not positive. they are breeding individuals with stronger cartilage in the ears. so far they have bred 2 generations and each one has shown a 10% increase in ear erection. I think it was part of a study being done by a vet or biology school.

So then its not impossible to breed the trait into the dog, right?

[stirder]

impossible? no, because their are some dobies whos ears stand up better (in the same litter) than others. breed the ones with stronger cartilage. it would take quite a while but could deffinetly be done, if it is so important that they stand up. and stumpy tails can be bred in as well, look at the stumpy tail cattle dog (seperate breed from the australian cattle dog), it is always born with a stumpy tail. and there are quite a few other breeds.

[Doberluv]

It's more the other way around. ALL wild dogs, wolves etc have erect ears. Floppy ears were bred into dogs way back when and I don't think all the other health problems were as prevelent. With some breeds it might be easier. Maybe some have more of a propensity toward that trait in the first place or perhaps don't have as many things to watch out for as with a Doberman, who has the predisposition toward many, many serious health problems. Some breeds with upright ears are extemely ancient and are offshoots of wild dogs so the upright ears are easier to aquire or are already there. A Doberman, for example is a very recent development. So is a GSD, but they may have started out with that trait in existance. Dobermans started out and still start out with floppy ears because of the dogs in their make up or background (hounds and others). The original dogs which went into a GSD already had upright ears.

[nedim]

impossible? no, because their are some dobies whos ears stand up better (in the same litter) than others. breed the ones with stronger cartilage. it would take quite a while but could deffinetly be done, if it is so important that they stand up. and stumpy tails can be bred in as well, look at the stumpy tail cattle dog (seperate breed from the australian cattle dog), it is always born with a stumpy tail. and there are quite a few other breeds.


Very interesting...a great example of this would have to be the pembroke welsh corgi. They have that little stump tail, and the cropped look in the ears.

[Doberluv]

breed the ones with stronger cartilage.

Yes, but do you realize what kind of odds there would be to find ones with stonger cartilage that also have everything else in place....health, conformation, temperament etc. Out of a litter, a breeder is lucky to get one dog worth breeding. Breeding upright ears is low on the priority list when it's hard enough to breed half way decent dogs in the first place.

In fact, what I found among the very best Doberman breeders was that Von Willebrand's disease was lower on the priority list. It can be a serious disease but in Dobermans the tendancy is not to be serious. There are a lot of Dobes who are affected who show no clinical signs. There are 3 classes of this disease and in other breeds who have it, they have the more serious form. Dobermans have the milder form where by affected dogs will still have enough of the factor to clot the blood and most will not bleed to death.

These breeders concentrated on trying to irraticate cancers and cardiomyopathy and then cervical vertebral instability (CVI) first and formost, along with temperament and good conformation, also essential to good skeletal health.

[stirder]

nope, most of the dogs used in the gsd didnt have erect ears. if you do the research and read from the source of the gsd breed, you learn that only about 30% of the dogs used had erect ears. most of the dobermans ancestors had floppy ears as well, and both are related to the beauceron who only had his ears cropped because he hunted wild boar. since dobeis are no longer accompanying door to door tax collectors they dont have to worry about theives or angry tax payers pulling off their ears. and it works either way as far as the ears up or down. ever see a plott hounds ears?? they are only twice as long and equally floppy as the dobes. yet in 2 generations they are almost 25% erect.
I just dont understand why anyone likes the look. if they were made to resemble naturally erect ears then I wouldnt mind so much. but the way they are cut coming to such a sharp point they make them look like clowns in my opinion. and of course I have a huge problem with surgically altering a dog to make it look more pleasing to its owner.

[Doberluv]

You have your opinion and can't understand. But the majority of Doberman people like the look of the cropped ears and there IS a purpose for a protection dog to have cropped ears. I don't like the look of certain dogs where others do. That's just the way it is.

Even if GSD had floppy eared ancestors, you don't know enough about genetics, skipping generations etc to understand how they came to have naturally upright ears. I don't either and that's not something we could get into.

Personally, I don't care about breeding that trait into a Doberman. I'd much rather see breeders striving to irraticate the life threatening diseases that plague this beautiful breed. I love my Doberman. He is treated in the best possible way, has a wonderful life living in a wilderness area where he can run and play. He has things to do, schooling and is very happy. The ear cropping that he had is infintessimal. (sp?) It is nothing. And most Doberman people that I know are excellent dog owners who have to know what they're doing to raise a good, complete Doberman and give their dogs a good life, which is a lot more important than a rather simple surgical proceedure.

If people are so worried about abuse to animals, there are a lot more troubling things going on out there that people should worry about than ear cropping. Good heavens!

[Adrienne]

Lets see (besides Dobes) there's...Great Danes, Boxers, Miniature Schnauzer, Kangal Dogs, Pit Bulls...that's all I can think of right now, (it's too early to think!) What other breeds commonly have this procedure?

Just to let you know Pit Bulls should not be docked or cropped according to the UKC standanrds and the ADBA standards.

This is Katya a Caucasian Ovcharka there ears are cropped to basically be non-exsistent...
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d930b3127cce928223e5267400000026108QZMXDho5bG

Here is their breed standard for ears....
The ears may be cropped in what is known as a "shepherd's crop." The ear flap is removed horizontally and bluntly, close to the head.

Although you can not have them cropped and they are still acceptable. They are cropped because they are a gaurdian breed and used for protection work. Katya came to us cropped all ready as well as spayed...and she cost us $2,500 so I know that the breeder cares deeply for her dogs.

[Manchesters]

Bless you, bless you, bless you!!!! I just plain ran out of strength--literally to hold forth against (Looking for a polite word to use..........hhmmm, can't think of any at the moment!) The OBTUSENESS (that is a good word) of "some" people. I mean when I stated that cropping ears is done for the same reason that parents have children's ears pierced (BECAUSE THEY LIKE THE WAY IT LOOKS!) And you get back an answer comparing the actual procedures, you know you are hoeing a deep row, rofl.

I was very fortunate to have known some of the best Doberman breeders that ever lived......most of whom have likely never been heard of today. Ellen Hoffman was one, she had Elfred Dobes. Tommie Jones of Kai Esa Dobes, Jane Gallagher of Dobergal Dobes. My last Dobermans were Dobergal Dogs. My last died in 1998 at the age of 13.....pretty good for a Doberman. I also met Jaima Youngblood of v.d. Bros Dobermans.

The answer to the original question of what didn't breeders just breed erect ears into certain breeds is OBVIOUSLY because it can't be done. And that if it COULD be done it would take hundreds of years perhaps to achieve. Unfortunately as you alluded to you cannot discuss genetics with someone who is clueless. I say clueless because if they had a clue they would have gotten the point after the first couple of posts, rofl.

Thank you again for helping to put and end to MY frustration, anyway!! ;)

[stirder]

I'm not trying to say it is abuse, only trying to say it is un-necassary. if the dog is commonly used for guarding flocks where it could very likely encounter a dangerous opponent such as a wolf or leopard, or for hunting dangerous game then I totally understand, better while they are young and get over it than have it torn off and do a heck of a lot more damage when they are an adult. but as a home guardian, first off ask anyone who trains schutzhund, personal protection, military or police dogs and they will tell you the odds are extremely slim that an untrained dog will follow through with an attack. they may bark growl and even bite, but when the opponent fights back most untrained dogs will retreat. thats not anything bad about the dog, it is simply truth...a kid on the playground gets punched in the face and it hurts, he wont fight as hard atleast for a few seconds. someone trained in boxing, wrestling or martial arts gets hit in the face they will be more likely to continue the fight.
second, the odds of a situation with a home guardian dog such as a doberman or even a gsd fighting a person are really slim, not enough to merrit cropping the ears. and if you disagree then why not do it in a way that actually provides an edge? like with katya pictured above? the ears are practically non-existent. a dobies cropped ears dont deminish the odds of something grabbing onto them, if anything erect ears are more accessible because they stand up. droop ears lying flat against the skull would be hard to get at, your hand would be mroe in the mouth range.
I know it sounds like I am totally against the practice and hate everyone who is for it...thats not totally true. I am against it and personally would not have it done. my opinion is that the only purpose it serves today (except in the case of a dog who may encounter a very dangerous predator) is asthetics. I do not believe for an instant that it causes them extended pain. yeah it hurts when it is done but dogs have short attention spans and puppies have far shorter ones. I just dont see the purpose. Im not trying to say you are a horrible person or that you dont love your pets, I said most of us wouldnt because we think of them as our babies, but I didnt mean that you dont. I imagine there are atleast a couple of issues that you feel strongly about and would try to explain your side of it and convince others to see atleast that your way is understandable?
oh, I have been around gsd's almost my whole life. I have talked to a lot of experts and I read everything I can about gsd's, as well as dogs in general. there of course are tons of things I dont know, but I COULD talk about the genetics which cause traits to skip a generation. not trying to brag by saying that, the only reason I know about genetics is that I researched them a lot so I could more accurately pick out dogs. Im no expert and there is a lot more I need to learn about them, but I do have a fairly good understanding.
just want to explain again, I dont intend for anything I have or will say on this thread to sound like an attack against anyone. but you cant say that most or all of the good/best/reputable dobie breeders think cropping the ears is good. as I said I had a lot of them, breeders who I consider extremely responsible, say they prefer natural ears.
oh...I do agree about the tails. dobie tails are if not docked look funny, and take something away from the dog.

[Doberluv]

but you cant say that most or all of the good/best/reputable dobie breeders think cropping the ears is good.

Most reputable Dobe breeders in the U.S. think cropping the ears is good. There, I said it. LOL!

Most show ring winners are cropped. Maybe not fair, but that's the way it is. It is in their breed standard to have erect ears. It is tradition since their beginnings. It does serve a purpose for a protection dog if you care to read that link I put up. Docking has a purpose too. It is not all about looks, although I do prefer the look also.

I've had GSDs in the past as well. Love em! (good ones) Harder to get a good GSD these days than it is to get a good Doberman....IMO. (of course)

[Doberluv]

Manchesters.....now I have to re-charge my batteries. I hope yours are getting there but I don't want to be mean about this to people. It's better to educate and if we **** them off, they'll never get it because they'll go into their autonomic nervous system (fight of flight) and then ya can't think at all.

[stirder]

as I said, yes docking the tail gives them an advantage. but if it was a big advantage in a fight or in preventing it from getting hurt in a closing door or smacking into something then why arent great danes docked? why isnt the gsd? or malinois? or others?
with 12 years experience in schutzhund I can tell you that erect ears are easier to get ahold of when the dog is biting the sleeve. and their are many breeds of guard dog which do not get cropped ears, or have naturally erect ears. the original ear cropping was like on katya where they were extremely small, not near as tall as they are now. the only argument I will grant you is hearing, and looks. if you havnt trained protection and been the agitator (wearing the sleeve and getting attacked) then you cannot argue that the ears being cropped gives them an edge. I have been the agitator many times with gsd's, dobie with cropped and non-cropped ears, rotties, pit bulls, malinois, giant schnauzers, boxers etc. the floppy eared dogs have a big advantage as far as being able to get a hand hold on and ear. while the dog is attacking he is facing the bad guy, once he bites you reach for the ears...erect, go over the head to get ahold of them. not erect, go to the side. they can much more quickly jerk their head up and snap than to the side.

[Doberluv]

Well, they use to crop them much, much shorter in Dobes. That is sometimes still used and is called the working crop. What my Dobe has is a show crop and yes, it's gorgeous. In some other thread I've already explained about Dobes' thin, fragile, whip-like tails, uncovered by a lot of hair or tissue, easily fractured. I'm getting bored out of my gord with this topic. I like my Doberman the way he is, the way traditionally he was designed and that's that. Natural.....unnatural. Who cares? Domestic dogs aren't natural anyhow. And I don't compare Schutzhund practice with what my dog does. I don't think an intruder who comes face to face with my gnashing teeth, growling dog will think much about grabbing his ears anyhow. But I prefer to have my Dobermans look like Dobermans, not a hound dog and that's just the kind of ears and tails they have. Besides, I love the alert look and how well he can descern direction of sound down to a much smaller percentage of a cone than he would with floppy ears. I like to know where it is he's alerting to, especially when we're out hiking in Grizzly territory.

[stirder]

your getting bored??? we're having a friendly argument. I have said several times that I understand your perspective, yet you keep arguing it? I keep arguing to try to explain my perspective, I have said I understand that you think it looks better. I am arguing that there is no real reason other than looks. as for the tail, great danes, greyhounds, whippets, and many many other breeds have the same type of tail and dont need it cut off to prevent injury, are you saying dobermans are so dumb that a body part exactly like many other breeds has to be removed to prevent injury when those other breeds are smart enough to prevent it on their own???
sorry to get rude but I have tried to be nice and just discuss this issue. you keep getting pretty rude and Im tired of it. if your either bored or realizing that you cant argue the facts then shut up. you and another member who I actually like have made several rude comments. Im only going to complain about that this once. if you cant argue politely and back yourself up then stop posting.

[Doberluv]

I'm only bored because on another thread and on another board this has been gone over so much. I didn't think I was being rude. Great Danes, greyhounds, whippets and many other breeds may not have the same temperament or type of activity level that a Doberman has. No, Dobermans are not dumb. I'm sorry that you don't know about Dobermans because you are missing out on a wonderfully, bright and trainable breed. Other than that, I really couldn't say why they leave their tails long.

[Manchesters]

Yes, it gets boring when someone asks the same inane question a dozen times, and does not comprehend the answers given! Some people are just thick, and you appear to be one of those people.

The question was "Why Crop Ears". The answer is "BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO." What part of that is difficult to absorb? Why should we have to go into genetics or anything else! You say to stop being rude and shut up if we can't post what you want to hear. Well, we are not being rude. Just allowing our frustration at your inability to comprehend what we are saying show.

FOR INSTANCE.....you ask the question about why not docking tails on other breeds such as Shepherds. Soooo, I will give you a crash course on anatomy. The breed standard for the Dobe calls for a square built dog. A docked tail has no effect on the maneuverability of a square bodied dog. GSDs are much longer than tall. Without a tail to serve as a rudder, the GSD would be unable to make sharp turns etc. This of course has nothing to do with cropping ears. And of course, Louis D. cut the tails off of his dogs so that no one could have anything to grab to protect themselves from the dog.

SO......your question has been answered. As politely as possible for a question asked 20 times, and answers ignored!!!!! If you don't like cropped ears....whoopie doo! That is your right. So don't get a dog with cropped ears. Some of us have a more sensitive eye as far as what we consider "beauty." Doberluv was a hell of a lot more polite than it is in my nature to be!!!!!!!! Trust me on that. You don't even recognize politeness when it is right in front of your big nose! You are thickheaded and obtuse! THERE!!!!!! I said it!!!!!! :D Of course that is just MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION!!!!! :p

Now, have a super good day, and quit beating a dead dog!!

[Manchesters]

I'm only bored because on another thread and on another board this has been gone over so much. I didn't think I was being rude. Great Danes, greyhounds, whippets and many other breeds may not have the same temperament or type of activity level that a Doberman has. No, Dobermans are not dumb. I'm sorry that you don't know about Dobermans because you are missing out on a wonderfully, bright and trainable breed. Other than that, I really couldn't say why they leave their tails long.

Starting to loose it, huh???? Roflmfbo!!!

As I said in my above post, the tails are left on running/hunting dogs because they are built differently than those square bodied breeds, and need their tails to serve as rudders. Dobermans are not generally called upon to make a 180 turn like a dog chasing a rabbit does. Without a tail, that dog would totally wipe out and possibly hurt itself. I just happen to have Whippets. Many Dobe people also have Whippets. Same love of comfort, same sick warped sense of humor as the Dobes are noted for. And of course with the advantage of not having to cut anything on the dogs! And of course after several years of having Whippets, when I met a Toy Manchester it was a natural progression to become addicted to that breed. Everything we love in Dobes in a nice small package. Ya sure can't fit 8 Dobes on your lap!!!!!!!!

My batteries are only half charged, but it sounds like you need to plug in again, rofl!!!!!! ;)

[Doberluv]

Ok...batteries 3/4 of the way charged. LOL.

Dobermans are not generally called upon to make a 180 turn like a dog chasing a rabbit does.

I had to laugh because you should have seen Lyric last night in his 2nd "grown up" agility class. What a scream! He was to jump, jump again, turn 180 degrees, quickly (lol) on his heel (on a dime) and come roaring back through the tire jump and then through the tunnel (which is his favorite) and up the wall. He knows this stuff pretty well because he's been in puppy agility before. (is bad on the teeter and bridge and stuff, but good on the other things).

After he was through, I went to move the tunnel, make more of a bend in it and he was suppose to just stand there and chill for a minute. But he took a flying leap over it from a stand still. That's what I mean about creative learning in Dobermans. LOL. Then everyone laughed and he looked around at people. Then he turned and did it again. LOL. show-off.

Anyhow....GSDs have lots of hair and thick skin on their tails. So do Labs. My Lab wagged all the time and never hurt her tail. It acted like a sail. She used it like a rudder to swim. Boy, never saw a more beautiful, graceful swimmer.

If my Dobe didn't have a docked tail, he'd be in trouble. I'd have whacked it off with a meat cleaver by now, just to think of the damage he would have caused to my house and my legs. Oh, and I can barely go here.....my little teensy Chi's. What could have happened to them? If he were lying on the floor and wagging as much as he wags, they would have been sent airborne across the living room many times, if they survived. :eek:

[Doberluv]

same sick warped sense of humor as the Dobes are noted for

Well then, (LOL!) I guess the Dobes got it from the Manchesters since that's part of their ancestory. I love that....warped sense of humor. Yes! They also have a sadistic sense of humor.

Yup.....how can a Doberman be compact and square if he has these unnecessary appendages hanging off of his body?

[wildwings811]

Doberluv-Manchesters- I love you guys lol:)

Those sick sadistic warped Dobes with their docked tails and cropped ears they just lead a sad life don't they?????


Sorry Strider but I wanted to say it last night

If you don't like the look of a cropped dog DON'T OWN THE BREED it is as simple as that and I would like to know who these breeders are that are trying to eradicate the cropping of the ears could you give me their e-mails because I would like to know how it is working for them :)

I am not trying to be rude or overbearing the truth is YOU don't like the cropping of ears so don't have it done it is just that easy to see the fact is that MOST Doberman people like the look of a cropped dog THAT IS WHY THEY OWN DOBERMANS or other breeds that have their ears cropped if they wanted a black and rust dog with long tails floppy ears than they would have bought a Black and Tan Coonhound!!!!!!!!

[Adrienne]

We have young posters on this forum, maybe you could watch your language a bit? To me swearing shows a lack of education, you could find a better word to use I am sure being as experienced in life as you are. So please no more H*** or other abusive language, this is a learning forum, not someplace to be disrespectful in the majority of your posts.

[Tail_Chaser]

oooo...y'all got in trouble! :D

So can anyone tell me what other breeds commonly have this procedure other than the ones I listed earlier. I'm just curious.

[wildwings811]

Bouvier des Flandres
Boxer
Doberman Pinscher
Giant Schnauzer
Great Dane
Standard Schnauzer
Miniature Schnauzer
American Staffordshire Terrrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Affenpinscher
Brussels Griffon
Miniature Pinscher
American Pitbull Terrier
And many of the bully breeds
Cane Corso
Dog de Bordeaux
Neoplitan Mastiff
Breeds of that sort

[Doberluv]

if they wanted a black and rust dog with long tails floppy ears than they would have bought a Black and Tan Coonhound!!!!!!!!


Wildwings! How did you know I like Black and Tan Coonhounds?

[Manchesters]

Well, excuuuuussssseeeee me! Boy I sure am ignorant! I always thought that telling someone to "Go to hell" was swearing!!!!!! Using hell as an adjective is certainly NOT swearing. However, when dealing with someone with comprehension problems, perhaps I should differentiate between using certain words as either NOUNS or ADJECTIVES. The cursing is in YOUR mind Adrienne......not in anyone elses. Certainly NOT mine, rofl.

Oh, and if you ever got into the real world, you would be amazed at the language today's young people use!!!!!!! Makes ME blush!

[Saje]

I'm just plain against unnecessary surgery. And yes, I'm against babies getting their ears pierced. It's sore for them and they are only supposed to do one ear at a time so they can lay on the other side while it heals. that's just silly. My parents wouldn't let me get my ears pierced until I was 16. That drove me nuts but they wanted me to be old enough to make an informed decision. So I guess when my dogs can decide if they want a tail or not I'll ask them. My guess is they'll want one. But those are just my dogs. I don't have any dobes or great danes....

[Adrienne]

Well, excuuuuussssseeeee me! Boy I sure am ignorant! I always thought that telling someone to "Go to hell" was swearing!!!!!! Using hell as an adjective is certainly NOT swearing. However, when dealing with someone with comprehension problems, perhaps I should differentiate between using certain words as either NOUNS or ADJECTIVES. The cursing is in YOUR mind Adrienne......not in anyone elses. Certainly NOT mine, rofl.

Oh, and if you ever got into the real world, you would be amazed at the language today's young people use!!!!!!! Makes ME blush!

Boy you must live a miserable life to always have to be putting others down to make yourself feel better. The only person here who has comprehension problems is you...obviously no one ever taught you how to communicate. All you know how to do is be vindictive and cruel.

[Doberluv]

We have young posters on this forum,

We also have moderators on this forum.

[Doberluv]

Now, back to the subject at hand....or aproximately back to it. Wildwings, are those your Dobes in your sig? They're gorgeous. Can you tell us about them? How many do you have and how long have you been in Dobes?

[Adrienne]

We also have moderators on this forum.
Don't worry I addressed Chazhound about my concerns.

[stirder]

actually wildwings, as a pit bull owner previously posted pit bulls, staffordshires, etc cannot have their ears cropped according to the standard. sorry.

[Manchesters]

Boy you must live a miserable life to always have to be putting others down to make yourself feel better. The only person here who has comprehension problems is you...obviously no one ever taught you how to communicate. All you know how to do is be vindictive and cruel.

Adrienne To Doberluv......"Bow down to Doberluver as she obviously knows all! Me and you seem to always conflict don't we...here and on Global Paw, some things you have said have given me better insight but a lot of what you type is just not making much sense to me. You do it your way with your PERFECT Lyric, I'll do it my way with my not as perfect given different cirucumstances and a completely different breed of dog that you most likely couldn't handle and we will survive and turn out just fine."

Seems to me the problem lies with you Adrienne. And you certainly do not recognize sarcasm when you read it. I admit I do act like a smart Aleck sometimes just to ring your chime. But it is only because I know just how you will react. I know who and what I am, and I really do not care what folks such as yourself think of me. Now if Showpug or Dobluv were to castigate me, I would certainly review the situation. You like to dish it, but just can't take it. Your browbeating techniques are far too obvious.

Perhaps if you restrict yourself to simply voicing your opinions and experiences, and not passing judgment on what others contribute you might be a happier person. And be much more highly regarded.

I am dying to know how many litters you have bred and raised. Why? Because unless you have done so, you only have a very small grasp of the complete dog experience, and likely cannot relate to the feelings and viewpoints of those of us who are the artists of the dog world. We MAKE them, you take advantage of what we have created. A slight difference.

Try being less confrontational, and from now on when I am goading you I will make a notation.

[stirder]

adrienne is confrontational??? every posy I've read of yours on numerous threads has been assinine (not a cuss word), and you are obviously one of the most immature members of this board. whatever addrienne sent to doberluv was between the two of them and should not have been shared, absolutely not your place to share it with the world. you may very well know a few things that the rest of us dont, but the simple fact you should be aware of is that your attitude here makes people avoid you, not learn from you. the reason I am on this forum is to learn things I dont know, and to teach people things I do know. it is blatantly obvious that your intentions are to start as many fights as possible and try to feel better about yourself when people finally give up and leave.

[Tail_Chaser]

I think the question was which breeds commonly have the procedure done not what's in the standards where you are at.

[stirder]

well, the american pit bull terrier breed registry standard does not permit cropping of ears, its not a regional thing. it may be a common practice but it is not permitted by the standard.

[Adrienne]

Adrienne To Doberluv......"Bow down to Doberluver as she obviously knows all! Me and you seem to always conflict don't we...here and on Global Paw, some things you have said have given me better insight but a lot of what you type is just not making much sense to me. You do it your way with your PERFECT Lyric, I'll do it my way with my not as perfect given different cirucumstances and a completely different breed of dog that you most likely couldn't handle and we will survive and turn out just fine."

Seems to me the problem lies with you Adrienne. And you certainly do not recognize sarcasm when you read it. I admit I do act like a smart Aleck sometimes just to ring your chime. But it is only because I know just how you will react. I know who and what I am, and I really do not care what folks such as yourself think of me. Now if Showpug or Dobluv were to castigate me, I would certainly review the situation. You like to dish it, but just can't take it. Your browbeating techniques are far too obvious.

Perhaps if you restrict yourself to simply voicing your opinions and experiences, and not passing judgment on what others contribute you might be a happier person. And be much more highly regarded.

I am dying to know how many litters you have bred and raised. Why? Because unless you have done so, you only have a very small grasp of the complete dog experience, and likely cannot relate to the feelings and viewpoints of those of us who are the artists of the dog world. We MAKE them, you take advantage of what we have created. A slight difference.

Try being less confrontational, and from now on when I am goading you I will make a notation.

CAN ANYONE SAY TROLL!!! LOL LOL LOL

[stirder]

for the record those of us on the non cropping side of the issue never got confrontational. you guys have a perspective on the issue and claim to be well educated on it, and yet you complain when people want to know WHY you feel the way you do??? the topic started out as why crop ears. you answered "because we like it". okay great, but then the topic became what are the benifits and down sides to it and you got angry and aggressive. then we wondered why you like it better, and you got beligerent. that is not what this forum is about, if you are going to claim to be the pros on a subject then prove it and answer our questions and have a POLITE discussion/argument. do you know how many times a week people ask me similar questions about german shepherds??? hundreds! do you know how many times I get as fed up with them as you have gotten with people on this thread? never!!!
I totally smell a troll. as I told chazhound, I am a moderator on a german shepherd forum and manchesters would have been shot down there a long time ago.

[Manchesters]

CAN ANYONE SAY TROLL!!! LOL LOL LOL


A-D-R-I-E-N-N-E!!!

M-I-C-K-E-Y
WHY??????? Because we love you!!!!!!!!!! In spite of it all. God's love be upon you, and all of us!!!!!

Now, I really am curious.....have you done any breeding?

[Doberluv]

It was asked why are ears cropped besides the look of them. I put up a good website (I thought) which explained a few things about it. No one ever seems to want to take a moment for one little 'ole page to load. Many questions might be answered there. I'll see if I can find out more about the medical aspect of the procedure when I feel like taking the time to do so. (If that would be of interest) I somehow think it would not. But I did explain what my breeder told me about the experience of the procedure and it didn't seem very bad at all...somewhat...yes. But within a few days, the pups were fine. I visited them when they had their little cups on their heads, about a week after they were cropped. The pups were all wrestling, pawing heads, climbing on eachother, bashing into eachother's ears and I never noticed any one of them wince. They were rambunctious as they come. LOL.

[Manchesters]

adrienne is confrontational??? every posy I've read of yours on numerous threads has been assinine (not a cuss word), and you are obviously one of the most immature members of this board. whatever addrienne sent to doberluv was between the two of them and should not have been shared, absolutely not your place to share it with the world. you may very well know a few things that the rest of us dont, but the simple fact you should be aware of is that your attitude here makes people avoid you, not learn from you. the reason I am on this forum is to learn things I dont know, and to teach people things I do know. it is blatantly obvious that your intentions are to start as many fights as possible and try to feel better about yourself when people finally give up and leave.

Look stirder, you have problems. They are YOUR problems not mine. If you do not know that anything posted IN A PUBLIC FORUM IS NOT PRIVATE, then you have a problem. And to try to ridicule me because I responded to a public post does not put you in a good light. I did not share it with anyone THEY did!!!!! Geee.

As far as cropping, and the benefits, you are supposed to be a German Shepherd expert, you should KNOW the benefit of an upright ear as opposed to a drop ear. You are the one trying to stir up stupidity. Oh, and it is spelled A-S-I-N_I-N-E.

Toodles.............

[Adrienne]

A-D-R-I-E-N-N-E!!!

M-I-C-K-E-Y
WHY??????? Because we love you!!!!!!!!!! In spite of it all. God's love be upon you, and all of us!!!!!

Now, I really am curious.....have you done any breeding?

Uh huh, and I wonder how many people think I am the troll, I don't try to put everyone down and get a rise out of people for the mere fun of it. Persoanly I have better things to do like raise my children and take care of my three dogs, three rabbits, one hamster, and a mouse. Whose name by the way happens to be M I C K E Y!

And yes I have raised two litters of pups...one of CO's and one of APBT's. The APBT was a mistake litter and I felt horrid about it but they were all healthy and survived and all went to excellent homes based on contracts. Except for the one I had to go and remove because I felt the owner was jogging him to far for being such a little guy.

[Doberluv]

Well, I don't know much about breeding at all. When I was a little kid, our dog had a couple of litters of pups. But I don't remember much about that. I leave that up to reputable breeders. I leave the medical end of it up to vets. Grooming! Ha! I'd make a real botch if I had to clip a dog. That's a groomer's job or someone who does know how to do it. That's why I go with short haired dogs. Training.....I know a little something about training. I've gone to college and studied animal behavior, canines being my main interest. I've trained dogs and horses for a lot of years. (love horses! LOL) I'm always obsessed with learning more. I see there is so much more to find out about and it is really interesting to me. So, that's where I concentrate. And the other thing I concentrate on is just plain enjoying my wonderful dogs' personalities and companionship. That is what we're all here for, undoubtedly. So, let's get on with it.

[Tail_Chaser]

What i can't figure out is why people say that dogs don't get a say in the cropping and docking and they would choose to keep their big ol puppy ears and whiplike tails.

I'll throw this out, do you think a male dog would ask to have his testicles taken out or a female would ask to have her ovaries out (which is more risky than the other procedures we are talking about here)?! I don't think so, we do it b/c as owners we try to make the best informed decision as to the well being and health of our pets.

[Saje]

I don't know but my bf wishes he could put his things on the end table when he goes to sleep roflmao :D

I think there is a difference between surgeries for health and surgeries for esthetics.

[stirder]

exactly

[joce]

"for the record those of us on the non cropping side of the issue never got confrontational. you guys have a perspective on the issue and claim to be well educated on it, and yet you complain when people want to know WHY you feel the way you do??? the topic started out as why crop ears. you answered "because we like it". okay great, but then the topic became what are the benifits and down sides to it and you got angry and aggressive. then we wondered why you like it better, and you got beligerent."

We are beligerant because we hear this every day on all pet forums and it gets old quick having to explain to people who have no clue about it why it is a good thing. And it isn't all just personel choice. Our breeder had an emergency when the pups were ten weeks old so she said I can crop and you can take them or I can have them the extra two weeks and you can not crop. We wanted him to have the extra two weeks so we didn't plan on cropping. A couple days after we get him he gets an ear infection and he ws in so much pain he just kept his head at one leval. Our vet at the time kept him overnight to try to fix it a couple times and it didn't help. He made his point well known that he was against cropping because it was onoly for looks. We finally took him to our horses vet who told us to crop him or get some surgery done to remove a part of his inner ear. We went and looked for a vet to crop and we finally found one that would work with his ear infection but only after they kept him a couple days. The day he came home was the first day he actually played. He had us rubbing his ears that night. Tell me how much pain my dog was in,because it was alll better.

Now if this was illegal there are no exceptions for my boy and what would have happened to him? It isn't common for this to happen but for the couple of dogs it happens to,my dog,cropping needs to be an option.

And you can't tell me its easier to grab a cropped ear. I also can't see why you don't understand why a shepherds tail isn't cropped?! Have you ever looked at these dogs? Shepherds and labs have thick tails. But even with that I have seen plenty of labs with tail injuries but maybe thats because I see dogs that are actually worked.

I also agree that no good breeder would regularly let a pup go without crop and dock. If her husband hadn't gotten hurt my boy would have came home cropped and never had the infection. OYu don't want to buy from a breeder who doesn't care about her dogs image nad the crop is part of the image.

There are old threads on this you should read. I just get sick of people saying its cruel and mean when they have no clue about it. It isn't that we do this because WE get off on pain. We do it for our dogs that we love very much. I want my dog to lok how the breed is meant to.
Here is my boys dogster page. The pic with his floppy ears is one of his sick days and you can see how unhappy he looks. http://www.dogster.com/?23112
Look at him and tell me he is abused and went through plain for my pleasure. Even if we didn't live on a farm or if he wasn't ever walked through the woods i would still crop every dobe i get from now on because that is their history and what gives them their regal look and I love everyhting about the breed.

[stirder]

if you get tired of talking about it then stay out of the conversation, how hard is that? as I said I get asked the same questions every day by countless people. always the same questions about gsd's. I didnt say I dont understand why gsd's dont have docked tails, I used them as an example without thinking and it was obviously a bad example.
it is PURELY for asthetics and as a schutzhund trainer yes I can tell you, and if you want to come visit I will show you, that it is easier to grab the ears of a cropped dog. assuming by cropped ears we are talking about the modern doberman crop and not the original crop.
yes it improves their hearing. unless you have a working dog, I dont mean a working breed, I mean you are in the military with a sentry dog or similar job, the hearing improvement is inconsequential. with flop ears the doberman will still know if someone is trying to break in before they get in.
as I said, if you want to be respected and tell people that you know more than them, then you have to be willing to politely prove it and educate others. if you get agravated at constantly being asked...ignore the thread.

[Doberluv]

Oh, so now in order for a dog to be called a working dog, it has to be in the military? That's a lot of baloney. My dog is a working dog. He has a job. He is my protector and has proven it on a few occasions already in his two years of age. He has sprung to my defence, gone in front of me twice in regards to an intruder. He defended my property once when I wasn't home and my niece was here. He protected the house and her when someone entered. And his hearing played a big role. His look played a big role. His gnashing teeth played a big role.

[Manchesters]

What i can't figure out is why people say that dogs don't get a say in the cropping and docking and they would choose to keep their big ol puppy ears.
I'll throw this out, do you think a male dog would ask to have his testicles taken out or a female would ask to have her ovaries out (which is more risky than the other procedures we are talking about here)?!

The answer to all of this lies in the fact that these purebred dogs are MAN MADE. And they are designed to look the way man wants them to look. Period. Louis Dobermann wanted the dog HE invented to have close cropped ears and a docked tail. So be it!!!!!!

The same holds true for the appearance of every man made breed. But it is interesting that (has been pointed out) all wild canids have upright ears!! Those of us with cropped breeds crop because that is the way the dog is SUPPOSED to look, and that is the look we like. I do NOT like the hound dog look at all, lol.

[Tail_Chaser]

yep yep yep
i say to each his own. which ever way anybody chooses is the way they like it. i'm not going to say it's wrong or right one way or the other either. is that so hard to agree upon?
well i'm off for now, another day another dollar

[Manchesters]

Uh huh, and I wonder how many people think I am the troll, I don't try to put everyone down and get a rise out of people for the mere fun of it. Persoanly I have better things to do like raise my children and take care of my three dogs, three rabbits, one hamster, and a mouse. Whose name by the way happens to be M I C K E Y!

And yes I have raised two litters of pups...one of CO's and one of APBT's. The APBT was a mistake litter and I felt horrid about it but they were all healthy and survived and all went to excellent homes based on contracts. Except for the one I had to go and remove because I felt the owner was jogging him to far for being such a little guy.

Oh boy, I guess I am really OLDer than I realized!

"The above M-I-C-K-E-Y.... why because we love you" is from the theme song of the Mickey Mouse Club. M-O-U-S-E. When I was typing out A-D-R etc, etc, it just popped into my head.

Thank you for answering my question about breeding. You already have it over me. I do not have any idea what B.O.s could be. (in my previous life as a poster here I would have said "smelly puppies" because BO also means body odor.)

Sadly all of us who breed have had a ooops litter in our history. My first oops litter resulted in __12__ Whippet puppies!!!!! They were so darned cute! I still have 5 of the pups (now 13 years old in Nov)
And I still have momma, who is 15 1/2 now.

There is much that goes into raising pups mentally and emotionally. Especially when dealing with Whippet pups and Manchesters that are little devils in disguise, lol.

To be a breeder, you have to be self assured in what you do, and stand by what you do and say. That tends to carry over to most aspects of life. My attitude is don't tell me I am wrong.....give me the facts, and I will research the matter myself.

The fact that two people are both strong willed and stubborn does not make either of them wrong. As long as nobody does anything really stupid, we just have to let people have their own opinions. If they are wrong in what they do, it will eventually work its way to the surface! It always does. Ain't nuttin wrong with butting heads as long as there is no meanness involved. I hate to be mean. Sometimes tho I just get so frustrated it does slip out once in a while. And I am not the most patient person in the world. AND I have NO USE for that political correctness bullhockey! I call a spade a spade. If someone else thinks it looks like a club, then that person just needs to get glasses, lol.

Anyway, I am mentally and emotionally drained. Too much time sitting upright, too much time spent thinking, and too much turmoil for one day. Getting old is a real bother, believe me. No endurance anymore!

A good night to all.

[Manchesters]

if you get tired of talking about it then stay out of the conversation, how hard is that? as I said I get asked the same questions every day by countless people. always the same questions about gsd's. I didnt say I dont understand why gsd's dont have docked tails, I used them as an example without thinking and it was obviously a bad example.
it is PURELY for asthetics and as a schutzhund trainer yes I can tell you, and if you want to come visit I will show you, that it is easier to grab the ears of a cropped dog. assuming by cropped ears we are talking about the modern doberman crop and not the original crop.
yes it improves their hearing. unless you have a working dog, I dont mean a working breed, I mean you are in the military with a sentry dog or similar job, the hearing improvement is inconsequential. with flop ears the doberman will still know if someone is trying to break in before they get in.
as I said, if you want to be respected and tell people that you know more than them, then you have to be willing to politely prove it and educate others. if you get agravated at constantly being asked...ignore the thread.

That keep asking you stupid questions about GSDs? Also, since you are a great SCH person, just how many dogs have you titled? What are their names and degrees? Hhhmmmmm? I find it difficult to believe someone who knows as little as you do about dogs in general is a great Schutzhund wizard. Haven't heard you say a word about obedience training either, which is a prerequisite to Schutzhund training.

Inquiring minds want to know!!!!!

And speaking of rude and uncouth............well, never mind.

[Adrienne]

It's Caucasian Ovcharka's, the bottom pic in my sig is a CO.

[Manchesters]

It's Caucasian Ovcharka's, the bottom pic in my sig is a CO.

I saw the other head shot you had of her in one of your posts. Very sweet. Bet you had fun raising those pups, rofl. Like I had raising a few litters of Doberman puppies! What an experience that was. First litter was only 5 pups. But later when I bred a b*tch out of that litter, she has 11 puppies!!!!!! And they were the big boned type that weighed about 12 pounds at 6 weeks, and took up a ton of space.
After the second litter when she had 10 pups, out of a Hawaiian import, I had her spayed! It took a long time to get over the trauma!

What made you decide on getting an O.C. (oh, as an aside, I started watch The O.C. About a year ago. Had no clue what OC was. I thought it was "Outcasts". My sister finally told me it stand for The Orange Coast, rofl. Live and learn! It did turn out to be a good show, too. I shall copy and paste the name of the breed and look them up online. No way I could spell it, roflmbo.

[Manchesters]

I saw the other head shot you had of her in one of your posts. Very sweet. Bet you had fun raising those pups, rofl. Like I had raising a few litters of Doberman puppies! What an experience that was. First litter was only 5 pups. But later when I bred a b*tch out of that litter, she has 11 puppies!!!!!! And they were the big boned type that weighed about 12 pounds at 6 weeks, and took up a ton of space.
After the second litter when she had 10 pups, out of a Hawaiian import, I had her spayed! It took a long time to get over the trauma!

What made you decide on getting an O.C. (oh, as an aside, I started watch The O.C. About a year ago. Had no clue what OC was. I thought it was "Outcasts". My sister finally told me it stand for The Orange Coast, rofl. Live and learn! It did turn out to be a good show, too. I shall copy and paste the name of the breed and look them up online. No way I could spell it, roflmbo.

Just in perpetual brain fart mode this evening. Yes, yes.....I know C-O's. Just ignore my wacko post. I need rest!!!!!!! Badly.

[stirder]

i have mentioned obedience on wuite a few threads of this forum. I didnt mention it here when referencing schutzhund because anyone who knows what schutzhund is knows that obedience is most of schutzhund, I didnt explain that earlier because the thread is not about schutzhund.
lets see, ones I have titled. rover vom fidis des lupis got a sch III. tanker von freisenblick got a sch II befor ehaving to be put down after being poisoned. dior van corsalabroek is in training now. knows as little about dogs in general as I do??? okay, whatever you say.

[Manchesters]

i have mentioned obedience on wuite a few threads of this forum. I didnt mention it here when referencing schutzhund because anyone who knows what schutzhund is knows that obedience is most of schutzhund, I didnt explain that earlier because the thread is not about schutzhund.
lets see, ones I have titled. rover vom fidis des lupis got a sch III. tanker von freisenblick got a sch II befor ehaving to be put down after being poisoned. dior van corsalabroek is in training now. knows as little about dogs in general as I do??? okay, whatever you say.

Those SCH titles are hard to come by, for sure.

Your response to the What makes a great dog for breeding was totally without any modicum of correctness. That is why I said you don't know dogs IN GENERAL. Obedience and Schutzhund are very specialized areas, and require no knowledge of the genetics of breeding. And a dog having or not having a title or titles at either end of its name means nothing as far as its quality as breeding stock. Conformation is vitally important. A dog that does not meet the breed standard is not physically going to be able to do what it is bred to do as well as a dog that meets the standard to a "T". There is a physiological for every requirement of a breed standard.

Again, congrats on your accomplishments. Do you have photos of these fellows on the web?

[Zoom]

There's a theory, or it could be fact, that many of the older working breeds, Rotties for instance, had their tails docked as a sign that they were a working dog and therefore exempt from certain taxes at the time. People get used to a look, as has been pointed out about the Dobes, and so the trend remained. Aussies who are not born with the natural bob-tail have them docked to fufill the breed standard that arose from (most likely) the practice of ranchers who docked their tails to either avoid the tail feathering becoming caught in brush and possibly trapping the dogs, or for hygenic purposes like the sheep they were herding. Full Aussie tails have feathering on them like Goldens. Very hard to take care of out on the range.

My best friend who bred and raised mini schnauzers said that she was all for cropping her dog's ears because of the higher risk of infection. She also went on to relate a story about a fellow breeder she knew who had a puppy with natural ears. One day the dog started shaking it's head and a terrible smell was emenating from it's ears. When she lifted the ear flap she found an infestation of maggots. Why or how the dog's ears got that bad, neither I nor my friend know. You'd think people would clean out the ears better.

[mrose_s]

I personally dont like the lookof cropped ears, looks unnatural.

[Fran27]

Ok sorry I skipped a few pages...

Ok, I got my answer. Because people want to. Well, I haven't changed my mind, I think it's pretty lame that people give surgery to their pets for LOOKS. Like someone said, if they don't like their looks, they should get another dog! Same thing for people who have their baby's ears pierced by the way, I have no respect at all for those people. If my kids ever want their ears pierced, fine, but I will do it if THEY ask me.

Doberluv, thanks for the link, it was interesting. I can see that there are reasons to do it when the dogs are bred as guard dogs. I see none for companion dogs however.

Tail_chaser, I agree, it's everyone's right to prefer one way or another, and I respect their opinion, but I'll admit I have a hard time respecting the fact that some people will change their dog's appearance just for looks. As you say, to each his own.

[Doberluv]

I can see that there are reasons to do it when the dogs are bred as guard dogs. I see none for companion dogs however.

In the case of a Doberman, this is not a guard dog. Dobermans are referred to and were bred as personal protection dogs. There is a difference. They don't go out in some junk yard all by themselves all night and guard rusty old cars. They stay glued to their family or person and stand by, prepared to protect if need be. They do this naturally without any specific protection training. First and formost they are a companion. If they are not raised in very close proximity with their owner, raised in a loving, companionable, bonded, close way, they will not have a very good reason to protect their people. Dogs who are mistreated, neglected.... or don't have a companionable relationdhip with their owner are not good, reliable protection dogs. So, I don't understand the distinction that has been made by a few here.....of a protection dog and a companion dog. They are one in the same. They are both.

My Doberman, Lyric is the love of my life. I love this dog so much. And he is sooooo "into" me. He is my constant, velcro companion. We work on obedience and agility, go on hikes together, go everywhere together. He is my baby and sits his 95 LBS on my lap. LOL (or tries to) There's usually one leg or his chin on me. We are very, closely bonded, a closer bond than I've ever had with a dog, even though I loved all my dogs. He has also shown his ability to protect me on a few occasions. He is always ready and alert. He can't lie down in the evening and let sounds outside slip by him. He's up in a flash, muscled up at every sound. If I get up from the couch, occasionally he'll stay put, but more often, he'll follow me where I'm going. I can't go out on the deck by myself and close him inside with me out there to have a cigerette without his whining and "neeeeeeeeding" to be out there with me. The minute I reach for my cigerette pack, that dog is on his feet quicker than you can blink an eye.

So, in other words, Lyric is my loving companion but he is also a protection/working dog. If he gets into it with someone or some wild animal, he is built compactly, squarely without anything combersome or anything hanging off of him to get in the way or get hurt. He hears things and knows quite accurately where the sound is coming from, something a lot of dogs are not so good at. (pinpointing direction of sound)

Dobermans are extremely atheletic, agile, quick, very fast runners. (Greyhound in their background)They are high energy and will not back down. They will not avoid hurting themselves if they need to do something in the line of duty. They're pushy, demanding and persistant. These traits contribute to the higher possibility of them getting themselves into a fix or getting hurt.

Yes, the ears are for looks too. These dogs look sharp. They were bred to be sharp, aggressive (when needed) They were not designed to look soft, fluffy and tolerant like a hound dog. Looking sharp, with those upright ears and looking the way their reputation has it, prevents a lot of mistakes from people. When an intruder or an attacker sees a Doberman, they tend to change their mind about what they may have been planning. Preventing contact with a bad guy is always the better choice.

Looking like a Doberman also prevents stupid people from running up to your dog, thinking it's an outgoing, friendly hound or hunting dog. They are not outgoing. Dobermans are reserved around stragers, not enthralled with meeting them, although will stand nicely and accept a pat. (that's the way they're suppose to be....it's how Lyric is too) But they would not appreciate the way some people act around dogs, the stupid ones. If a Doberman looks like a Doberman, people will tend to be more respectful or careful.

There are all kinds of good reasons for cropping and docking besides looking pretty.

[Renee750il]

Excellent explanation, Dober.

[stirder]

I agree with you doberluv, about distinguishing companion from protection in a way. I consider both my trained gsd and un-trained puppy acd to be both companion and protector. the acd (when she is mature) will surely be a protection dog to an extent. I would not expect an un-trained dog to follow through with an attack if the attacker fights back. some will, some wont. I would expect my trained gsd to follow through with an attack even if the bad guy or bad animal fights back and injures him.
these terms (companion, guard, protection dog etc) can mean different things to different people. as I said I consider my dogs companions and protectors, companion/friend/family member 1st. I also could say my dogs are guard dogs because they will guard my home or car, me or my wife etc. even though when I think of the term "guard dog" I think of a dog like the caucasian ovcharka (spelling?) that was bred to live amongst a flock or herd and guard them, most often without the owner present to give orders or directions.
companion is a general term that I dont beleive should be a category (such as gun dog, herding dog, etc) because I would consider any dog I ever have a companion. even an independant breed that wants to be outside without me as much or more than inside with me. I'll still love it and consider it a friend.
and even some toy dogs and some of the gentlest breeds will bark to alert you to an intruder, or possible intruder and in a way are guard dogs because they alert you. and even with dogs pred as guardians or protectors, without training some will protect and some wont. without training them you dont know untill something happens. I have said many times that an untrained dog wont follow through with an attack, thats a generalization of course. in my opinion it is true because training is more of a garauntee that they will. I feel more comfortable knowing that my german shepherd is trained in protection and highly trained in obedience. he has been exposed to attacking the agitator and being swung around while gripping the sleeve, and having starter pistols go off. he has been obedience trained to the point that he can be charging the bad guy (on the schutzhund field) and in mid charge I can tell him to lie down, he'll skid to a stop on his belly. mid bite/fight I can command him to heel and he will release and circle me into the heel position. as I said I consider my wifes australian cattle dog to be a protection dog...she will bark and let us know someone is outside the door, or breaking in. of course shes only around 13 weeks old right now (rescue, age is an estimate), so Im talking when she is mature. would she bite and try to bring down an intruder or attacker??? I would like to think so, and she is a protective loyal breed, and she instinctively goes for the heels/ankles so she might severe the achilles tendon. but I wouldnt count on her attacking and following through. only because without training her in protection work I just dont know.
luckily most people who are considering breaking into a home, or in the process of breaking in, hear a dog or 2 barking will wet their pants and run. or atleast realize that anyone in the house or neighbors may have heard the dogs barking and could investigate or call the police.

Id also like to say...I didnt intend for any of my posts here to sound confrontational or like personal attacks. I was trying to have a conversation without anyone getting angry. often threads can get heated without getting mean. if anyone took anything I said as rude, mean or as an attack I apologize. I merely intended to get my perspective out there and defend it, and to hear others sides of the issue and hopefully learn something myself, as well as help others who may have never read anything about the topic learn something.

I hope this post made sense. I was being distracted by a hyper puppy and an annoying cat. if something I said isnt explained clearly I'll be happy to clarify.

[joce]

I can't just ignore the post and move on becuase it involves the breed I care very much about and one day it could be someone like you choosing if cropping is ok. Its one of the issues you can't just be quiet about. I just find it odd your so into schutzend but your against cropping. my trainer and the club owner up here both have cropped dogs. My trainer actually had one of his surgically corrected. I doubt your knowledge on this if you are really that involved in it,I have just looked into it but I still know why they are cropped and docked. It is your right to not want your dogs cropped but don't push it on anyone else. The extra bell part of the ear that is removed with the crop is what they would get caught on. I'm not some idiot that just got my dogs ears cut up I really took the time looking into it.

ANd for some reason my trainer switched it from schutzend to just personel protection training but I'm not sure why he did that. Like I said I just started getting into it and then started looking into agility. Which every dobe in that has been cropped to that i have seen so far.

[Doberluv]

Well, actually a Doberman with correct Doberman temperament will not back down when in a confrontation with an attacker. This is something they are well known for. It's in their description. And my dog was not about to back down when we had an incident. So, I have to disagree with you there. Perhaps that is true with some breeds.

And I agree with you about these dogs, yours and mine both protecting our stuff too. Yes, personal protection dog and personal as well as real property (real estate) protection dog. LOL. They do it all.

But one thing that helps in most all cases, I suspect is their reputation. People are afraid of Dobermans and some are of GSDs. I had the most friendly, UNaloof GSD. He was big boned, gorgeous and friendly as my Lab. LOL. But still.....people thought twice. With my big black Doberman who is not as friendly as my Lab, civil, steady, but reserved, an intruder would only think once. (Of course, where I live now, it's pretty dang crime free)

[Renee750il]

luckily most people who are considering breaking into a home, or in the process of breaking in, hear a dog or 2 barking will wet their pants and run. or atleast realize that anyone in the house or neighbors may have heard the dogs barking and could investigate or call the police.

Professional criminals have said often - and loudly - that although an alarm system is rarely a deterrent, a dog is the one thing that will make them decide to choose an easier target. There are just too many variables for a professional to want to risk when faced with a dog. That includes not only burglars, but home invasion types as well. And homes are broken into all the time BECAUSE guns are kept in the home - you don't find too many breaking into a house for the dog, lol! Of course, if you're dealing with stone-crazies nothing is going to deter them from trying. Even a small dog can be enough of a distraction to give you a chance to defend yourself though.

I feel more comfortable knowing that my german shepherd is trained in protection and highly trained in obedience. he has been exposed to attacking the agitator and being swung around while gripping the sleeve, and having starter pistols go off.

You'd find the reaction of a Fila with a proper temperament interesting, I think. The correct reaction to a firearm is to rush the wielder and disarm him. It's actually part of the temperament testing for the breed and is supposed to be instinctual, not trained.

[Doberluv]

Good points Renee. Yes, dogs will deter criminals. If I only had my Chihuahas, that would almost be enough. They have bionic hearing and the most annoying barks. That alone would drive a horse from it's oats. That warning is really all I'd need to have time to grab my .38. LOL. I really would prefer that my Doberman wouldn't get into a confrontation with a criminal. He could get shot or stabbed.

And it's interesting about Filas. Yes, there are breeds who have it bred into them naturally to protect and not back down. And there are breeds who need a little more training. Of course, not all Dobermans are correct or perfect in their temperament. And I'm sure it's the same with all breeds. Some are excellent representations and some are not.

[stirder]

yes of course, it is supposed to be part of the temperament, but without training testing you just cant say for certain that they ALL have that temperament. a gsd is not supposed to back down from a threat anymore than a doberman or rottweiler is, but you can be more certain they will follow through if you have trained them. I dont doubt at all doberluv that your dobie wouldnt back down unless he/she received an injury so severe that he couldnt continue. strider is the same way. many dogs (gsd's, dobes and rotts) when they first start schutzhund or personal protection dont have the confidence to follow through, some wont even bite. it is supposed to be in the temperament that they will protect, and follow through with an attack unless crippled by the attacker. but even if the dogs parents were temperament tested, they can produce a mix of temperaments in their pups, some may have more drive than the parents, some may have less. thats why I think schutzhund is so important to the breeds that are supposed to be guardians/protectors. if you judge a dog by conformation and breed it to an equally judged dog, you dont know if they are as protective as they are meant to be. I think breeding dogs should be titled in more than one field.
as I said, some dogs will have the temperament to follow through without training but you wont know for sure untill the situation arises. if you train the dog you have atleast a 75% chance that he/she will follow through, without training I guess around a 50% chance.
renee, Ive only worked with one fila. that was 6-7 years ago and I only played the role of agitator one time with her. I had been hit by gsd's, dobes, rotts, and pit bulls...fila hit almost as hard as all of them put together, full mouth bite, jaws like a hydroulic press. impressive dogs for sure!! but I imagine they are no different, some may not have the temperament without training you wont know.

[Doberluv]

I understand what you're saying Stirder, but I can almost be sure....if my Doberman were to go into Schutzhund training, that still wouldn't be a sure fire way of testing him. He's so smart, that he'd probably know this wasn't the real thing and maybe he wouldn't bite. It's a different thing when something is really happening with real emotions and fear coming off the dog's owner and something that isn't real, but a simulation. This breed is highly, highly keyed into it's owner's mood as well as the actual situation. He can tell when someone is a threat and when someone isn't. It's uncanny.

For dogs who don't have these "psycic" abilities, I can see where training is needed. My dog has understood when I was wrestling or play fighting with someone. My daughter and I practice our karate sometimes for fun....sparring etc. He is not perturbed in the least. I've done the same with a guy friend. Again...Lyric knew it wasn't a real fight. He watched, and in fact, came to have a closer look. LOL. But didn't react other than that. However, when things have happended that were more of a potential threat, he's gotten very serious. No, I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt if he'd follow through and attack/bite someone. That has never come up. But according to his breed standard and description, if he is of proper and correct Doberman temperament, then he won't back down in the face of an attack. I think he has good temperament. He's a lovely dog and he comes out of the top Doberman in the country (several times over) (Repo Man) and from a top breeder who got top breeder of the year award. She's been breeding for over 40 years and has had some excellent dogs and some famous old time dogs from way back in the lines. This does not ensure all, but it probaby helps. That is why we have these discussions about reputable breeding...it is important to maintain proper temperament, health and structure.

There have been many, many countless stories over time where scads of Dobermans have protected and fought for their masters. They have not all had Schutzhund training. This is well documented and known about this breed. It's a moot point to say that some will not. Of course, some will not. They're not all of correct temperament. And I don'