what makes the perfect breeding dog

[juliefurry]

I am not planning on breeding any of my dogs, half my dogs are fixed and the others aren't yet old enough to get fixed. I was just hoping that maybe someone could clarify want a good dog to breed would be? Is it a dog with a good temperment or a dog that is a good specimen of it's breed? Could you justifiable breed a dog with a good temperment that might not be a great example of it's breed? Or could you breed a dog with a not so great temperment that is a great example of it's breed justifiably? I don't plan on breeding but maybe if these question were answered it could help other people decide on if their dogs should or should not be bred.

[bubbatd]

Breeding any dog should be left to the responsible dog breeders. Those who have shown their dogs, know the breed well, and do it only for the betterment of their line or the dog's breed. The dogs should have all the qualifications of the breed, good temperment, all tests etc. Your questions were good......glad you asked !

[showpug]

Like the previous post, dogs that are kept in a breeders breeding program should have th total package! They should have a title in some form of competition. I personally believe in dual titles such as a conformation championship and another title like obedience, herding, field trialing, lure coursing etc. They should also adhere to the standard as far as temperment and conformation goes AND they should only be bred to other dogs that adhere to the standard and are of equal to better quality...with the intention to improve the next generation of puppies. They should pass health screens for genetic problems that are typical to that breed and should be overall sound. :)

[Fran27]

The perfect breeder will have all that... Personally, I couldn't care less about competitions though, so MY opinion of a good breeder is one that makes sure that the parents have no health problem, have good temperament, and takes lots of time socializing the puppies - and of course is picky about the families the dogs will go to. I want good and healthy pets, not champions.

But I think that nobody will have the same idea of what is responsible breeding.

[Renee750il]

Julie's on a good track. From spending time picking Fila breeders' brains, I've learned that there is no such thing as the "perfect" dog to breed. Very often, when you breed two dogs that seem to be the apex of the breed standard you don't get puppies that necessarily live up to their parents. Very often the best pups come from balancing the great traits and faults of the two parents. For instance, one dog has a great line and is a strong drover, but the temperament is too soft and the head not quite large enough, so you breed to a dog that may not have a perfect line, or as strong a droving instinct, and maybe has an over-large head and a very, very hard temperament and you end up with one or two exceptional pups in a litter of good to above average pet quality pups (usually). That's simplified, and there are countless things to take into consideration and weigh, but you get the idea. And there's a degree of luck, the planets being in alignment, voodoo, kharma, etc. involved. ;)

Or that may just be the way rare breeds are handled because of the relatively shallow depth of the available gene pool.

[showpug]

The perfect breeder will have all that... Personally, I couldn't care less about competitions though, so MY opinion of a good breeder is one that makes sure that the parents have no health problem, have good temperament, and takes lots of time socializing the puppies - and of course is picky about the families the dogs will go to. I want good and healthy pets, not champions.

But I think that nobody will have the same idea of what is responsible breeding.

Fran, she asked what makes a good breeding "dog", not what makes a good dog breeder.

[showpug]

Julie's on a good track. From spending time picking Fila breeders' brains, I've learned that there is no such thing as the "perfect" dog to breed. Very often, when you breed two dogs that seem to be the apex of the breed standard you don't get puppies that necessarily live up to their parents. Very often the best pups come from balancing the great traits and faults of the two parents. For instance, one dog has a great line and is a strong drover, but the temperament is too soft and the head not quite large enough, so you breed to a dog that may not have a perfect line, or as strong a droving instinct, and maybe has an over-large head and a very, very hard temperament and you end up with one or two exceptional pups in a litter of good to above average pet quality pups (usually). That's simplified, and there are countless things to take into consideration and weigh, but you get the idea. And there's a degree of luck, the planets being in alignment, voodoo, kharma, etc. involved. ;)

Or that may just be the way rare breeds are handled because of the relatively shallow depth of the available gene pool.

Renee...you are right. Good breeders understand balance. There is no such thing as a perfect dog. If you are breeding your female that has certain weaknesses then you look for a male that is strong where she is weak and vice versa (sp).LOL!!

[juliefurry]

how hard is to spot a good breeding dog? Are they easy to come by, or do the breeders usually keep them for themselves to improve their dogs? Is a male breeder more easy to get than female (since the females are usually the more expensive dog)?

[showpug]

how hard is to spot a good breeding dog? Are they easy to come by, or do the breeders usually keep them for themselves to improve their dogs? Is a male breeder more easy to get than female (since the females are usually the more expensive dog)?

Not easy to spot unless you have spent an abundance of time with that breed and studying the standard etc. Not all show dogs make good breeding dogs, but that is the purpose of showing dogs, to test breeding stock. I will start in the ring and aquire a championship conformation title and then put my dog through MANY health screens and then find a stud that is strong where she is weak and then and only then would I breed a litter.

[EliNHunter]

Females are probably more expensive because of the costs involved with breeding her. The stud comes in, does his thing, then leaves (rings true in human life too, huh?). The female is the one that has to go through constant checkups throughout pregnancy, the special diets, the birthing process, the vetting of both her and her pups afterward. You breed the "degreed dog" for confirmation (their looks), temperment, health certification (eyes, hips, etc.), and if they have extra certifications tied to showing, trials, therapy, etc... all the better.

What do I mean by a degreed dog? One that has been registered and proves all of the above. That's the only time one should breed a dog. To further the breed.

[beagle_lovergirl]

I will start in the ring and aquire a championship conformation title

I'm getting intersted in this :D What kind of of title are you talking about. Best in Show? Best in Group? Best in Breed?

[bubbatd]

My Goldens were not show dogs but of show quality . I bred mainly as family dogs... now this was back in the 60s when Goldens were wanted with good health backgrounds etc, my Bubba's granddad was best of breed at the Garden. I bred for temperment, etc. Back then I called them companion dogs. loving members of the family. I feel there are a few of us out there, but not through ads etc. I can go back to many generations of show dogs...but that wasn't my intent. I wanted people to have what I had .... loving members of the family. And no, I didn't charge more for my females as all my buyers agreed to spay .

[juliefurry]

I know the people that we got Hannah from we didn't sign a spay contract and she was more expensive. They weren't a good quality breeder like you bubbatd.

[showpug]

I'm getting intersted in this :D What kind of of title are you talking about. Best in Show? Best in Group? Best in Breed?

AKC conformation title. You aquire this title by showing your dog and accumulating points based on how many dogs you defeated of your breed. You need a total of 15 points and it's a lot more complicated than that, but I won't bore you LOL!! The dog shows you see on TV where they go around the ring etc. Westminster...Eukanuba National championship etc....and MANY more shows that are not televised are all AKC shows! Best in Show, Best in Group and Best of Breed are all levels of winning. Hope that helps!!

[beagle_lovergirl]

AKC conformation title. You aquire this title by showing your dog and accumulating points based on how many dogs you defeated of your breed. You need a total of 15 points and it's a lot more complicated than that, but I won't bore you LOL!! The dog shows you see on TV where they go around the ring etc. Westminster...Eukanuba National championship etc....and MANY more shows that are not televised are all AKC shows! Best in Show, Best in Group and Best of Breed are all levels of winning. Hope that helps!!

You don't bore me!It's actually pretty intersting. How many dogs do you have to defeat to get a point?

[showpug]

You don't bore me!It's actually pretty intersting. How many dogs do you have to defeat to get a point?

I depends on the breed you show and what division you are in. The division is determined by what state you live in. In order to get points, you must defeat a certain number of dogs of the same sex. Different divisions have different point schedules based on how many dogs of a certain breed are registered in that region and shown etc. Here is an example:

I show pugs in division 8. Lets take females for example. In order to aquire points this is how many you must defeat of the same breed and sex.

1 point = 2 defeated
2 points = 8 defeated
3 points = 13 defeated
4 points = 18 defeated
5 points = 27 defeated

Now, it's not all that easy, because out of the 15 points you accumulate you must have at least 2 majors wins. A major win is a 3,4, or 5 point defeat or "major" as we like to call it.

Hope that wasn't too confusing LOL!! :)

[beagle_lovergirl]

I depends on the breed you show and what division you are in. The division is determined by what state you live in. In order to get points, you must defeat a certain number of dogs of the same sex. Different divisions have different point schedules based on how many dogs of a certain breed are registered in that region and shown etc. Here is an example:

I show pugs in division 8. Lets take females for example. In order to aquire points this is how many you must defeat of the same breed and sex.

1 point = 2 defeated
2 points = 8 defeated
3 points = 13 defeated
4 points = 18 defeated
5 points = 27 defeated

Now, it's not all that easy, because out of the 15 points you accumulate you must have at least 2 majors wins. A major win is a 3,4, or 5 point defeat or "major" as we like to call it.

Hope that wasn't too confusing LOL!! :)

No not at all! Do you know any websites that talk about this more?

[showpug]

No not at all! Do you know any websites that talk about this more?

You can always visit www.akc.org and select the "Events" section and then look under conformation. There should be a lot of information there for you to read up on. OR, if you are really interested then there is a book I sware by for any beginner, or someone who just wants to learn all about dog showing. Here is the link, it's called "Raising A Champion" a begginers guide to showing dogs. It explains everything!http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DSH148&AffiliateID=45673&Method=3

[beagle_lovergirl]

You can always visit www.akc.org and select the "Events" section and then look under conformation. There should be a lot of information there for you to read up on. OR, if you are really interested then there is a book I sware by for any beginner, or someone who just wants to learn all about dog showing. Here is the link, it's called "Raising A Champion" a begginers guide to showing dogs. It explains everything!http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DSH148&AffiliateID=45673&Method=3

Thanks so much! I'll check out that book.

[showpug]

Thanks so much! I'll check out that book.

You are welcome. If you have questions along the way, you can always Private message me, I would be happy to chat with ya :D

[Manchesters]

Not easy to spot unless you have spent an abundance of time with that breed and studying the standard etc. Not all show dogs make good breeding dogs, but that is the purpose of showing dogs, to test breeding stock. I will start in the ring and aquire a championship conformation title and then put my dog through MANY health screens and then find a stud that is strong where she is weak and then and only then would I breed a litter.
:eek: You have it totally bassackward!!!!!! You do the testing FIRST! Why on earth spend money showing a dog to a title and THEN test????????? Unless of course you are filthy rich. A spayed champion ain't gonna do much to further the breed or a breeding program!!!! :confused:

[showpug]

:eek: You have it totally bassackward!!!!!! You do the testing FIRST! Why on earth spend money showing a dog to a title and THEN test????????? Unless of course you are filthy rich. A spayed champion ain't gonna do much to further the breed or a breeding program!!!! :confused:

#1, I enjoy showing and not all dogs HAVE to be bred.
#2, I start showing my dogs at 6 months....this is too early to do OFA and some other types of testing etc. Many finish their championship before the OFA age. Oh ya, and maybe I am filthy rich LOL!! :eek:

[Manchesters]

#1, I enjoy showing and not all dogs HAVE to be bred.
#2, I start showing my dogs at 6 months....this is too early to do OFA and some other types of testing etc. Many finish their championship before the OFA age. Oh ya, and maybe I am filthy rich LOL!! :eek:

Are you acquainted with Penn Hip testing? Check into it, I think you will find it very interesting. Also in your post you stated getting a Championship and then doing testing. Dogs that finish while still puppies are worthless until they have matured at about 2 years of age average! The only value of a dog genetically is in what they produce. Many people I know will pull their dogs from showing until they have been bred. There are too many cheap championships out there. The title has become almost a joke in recent time. The whole point should be to confirm that one has healthy dogs that will contribute to improving the breed. Very very often the top Brood B**itches have no titles in front of their names. They may have a bunch behind the name tho.

I just don't see the sense of someone going for a championship until they know their dog is tip top, health wise. It is not cheap these days to finish a dog. And depending on the points, some breeds ya have to be a Rockefeller!!!!! :)

[showpug]

Are you acquainted with Penn Hip testing? Check into it, I think you will find it very interesting. Also in your post you stated getting a Championship and then doing testing. Dogs that finish while still puppies are worthless until they have matured at about 2 years of age average! The only value of a dog genetically is in what they produce. Many people I know will pull their dogs from showing until they have been bred. There are too many cheap championships out there. The title has become almost a joke in recent time. The whole point should be to confirm that one has healthy dogs that will contribute to improving the breed. Very very often the top Brood B**itches have no titles in front of their names. They may have a bunch behind the name tho.

I just don't see the sense of someone going for a championship until they know their dog is tip top, health wise. It is not cheap these days to finish a dog. And depending on the points, some breeds ya have to be a Rockefeller!!!!! :)

Manchesters....I looked into and read up on the Penn Hip testing. Sounds very interesting. I am going to see if there is a vet in my area that is familiar with it and trained properly. It seems more reliable and scientific then regular OFA....less room for human error and biased interpretation.

I also agree with the notion that there are too many "cheap" championships out there. Sometimes I am amazed at the dogs that carry these titles and shake my head in disbelief! It pains me to go to a specialty only to see dogs that paddle, have slipped hocks and roachy toplines!! :eek:

I also realize that some of the best brood B*itches are not champions and rather they are R.O.M's etc. I respect and acknowledge that, BUT I still plan on titleing a dog before I breed it. I guess if you believe that all health testing should be done before a dog steps foot in the ring then I guess it would be our responsibilty as a breeders to Penn Hip test all puppies before even selling them OR calling them show prospects. Not to mention the eyes and cardio certifications for pugs. Now talk about needing to be a Rockefeller!!! LOL!! :D As it stands, my dogs will all be tested before breeding, but not before entering the ring. If money is lost then it's my money and they are still just as good at warming my lap even if they can't be bred. ;)

[juliefurry]

right on showpug!

[Manchesters]

Manchesters....I looked into and read up on the Penn Hip testing. Sounds very interesting. I am going to see if there is a vet in my area that is familiar with it and trained properly. It seems more reliable and scientific then regular OFA....less room for human error and biased interpretation.

I also agree with the notion that there are too many "cheap" championships out there. Sometimes I am amazed at the dogs that carry these titles and shake my head in disbelief! It pains me to go to a specialty only to see dogs that paddle, have slipped hocks and roachy toplines!! :eek:

I also realize that some of the best brood B*itches are not champions and rather they are R.O.M's etc. I respect and acknowledge that, BUT I still plan on titleing a dog before I breed it. I guess if you believe that all health testing should be done before a dog steps foot in the ring then I guess it would be our responsibilty as a breeders to Penn Hip test all puppies before even selling them OR calling them show prospects. Not to mention the eyes and cardio certifications for pugs. Now talk about needing to be a Rockefeller!!! LOL!! :D As it stands, my dogs will all be tested before breeding, but not before entering the ring. If money is lost then it's my money and they are still just as good at warming my lap even if they can't be bred. ;)

Once upon a time I was gungho into showing. But I never had the money to spare, and as an owner handler trying to show Dobes all I was doing was building the points for everyone else, lol.

Then parvo and other things came along that made it risky to take one's dog around other dogs. So my excitement waned. And then of course in 1995 I didn't have energy to do any traveling. In December of 1995 I had a few mini heart attacks, and ended up having open heart Jan of 1996. At the tender age of only 53!!!!!!

That kinda took the wind out of my sails energy wise. For a long time! We don't have a whole heck of a lot of shows around here anyway......well, maybe for those who don't mind driving a couple hundred miles each way, you could take in the New Orleans shows, and the lower Mississippi shows.

I had one B*tch who finished in something like 5 shows.....took 3 majors in one weekend, and a month later finished going BOB for 5 points over the #1 Toy Manchester!!!

My friend Terry (lady) has taken off with my dogs and their kids, and is pretty much doing it all in the show ring and breeding. What many folks do (those who have more patience than I) show in obedience while waiting for show prospects to mature. However the words "obedience" and Toy Manchester are somewhat oxymoronic (make some folk dig out their dictionaries!) There are few TITs with obedience titles.

But shucks, if you enjoy the socialization of going to shows, and having your dogs get even with you for everything you ever did to them, I sure can understand that.

I have gotten to the point that I don't even go to the local shows here in Pensacola. Just the thought exhausts me! Down here in the south tho we do run a greater risk of picking up all kinds of bothersome problems going to the shows......unexplained diarrhea and such. Not to mention the gosh awful heat in the summer and fall, up till November.

And I must say, I am pleased to meet a distant cousin of the Rockefeller family, rofl. I was a neighbor of theirs......we lived in North Tarrytown, and they were up the road in Pochantico Hills.

Have a super good night.

[Saje]

Ok, I've mostly just skimmed this thread but I'd like to add that knowing something about your dog's genetics doesn't hurt. Because you can have a 'perfect' job whose genes are just not that dominant. So, when you breed you need to consider which genes are dominant and which ones are weaker in both the partners so they compliment eachother. But my experience is more with horses. I've never bred dogs and don't plan to.

[showpug]

Once upon a time I was gungho into showing. But I never had the money to spare, and as an owner handler trying to show Dobes all I was doing was building the points for everyone else, lol.

Then parvo and other things came along that made it risky to take one's dog around other dogs. So my excitement waned. And then of course in 1995 I didn't have energy to do any traveling. In December of 1995 I had a few mini heart attacks, and ended up having open heart Jan of 1996. At the tender age of only 53!!!!!!

That kinda took the wind out of my sails energy wise. For a long time! We don't have a whole heck of a lot of shows around here anyway......well, maybe for those who don't mind driving a couple hundred miles each way, you could take in the New Orleans shows, and the lower Mississippi shows.

I had one B*tch who finished in something like 5 shows.....took 3 majors in one weekend, and a month later finished going BOB for 5 points over the #1 Toy Manchester!!!

My friend Terry (lady) has taken off with my dogs and their kids, and is pretty much doing it all in the show ring and breeding. What many folks do (those who have more patience than I) show in obedience while waiting for show prospects to mature. However the words "obedience" and Toy Manchester are somewhat oxymoronic (make some folk dig out their dictionaries!) There are few TITs with obedience titles.

But shucks, if you enjoy the socialization of going to shows, and having your dogs get even with you for everything you ever did to them, I sure can understand that.

I have gotten to the point that I don't even go to the local shows here in Pensacola. Just the thought exhausts me! Down here in the south tho we do run a greater risk of picking up all kinds of bothersome problems going to the shows......unexplained diarrhea and such. Not to mention the gosh awful heat in the summer and fall, up till November.

And I must say, I am pleased to meet a distant cousin of the Rockefeller family, rofl. I was a neighbor of theirs......we lived in North Tarrytown, and they were up the road in Pochantico Hills.

Have a super good night.

Going to shows now or not, you made a difference in your breed and you made manchesters better. Sounds like your lines and efforts will be carried on through others now. The dogs have you to thank and the future handlers and breeders of manchesters have a great mentor in their midst. You are a smart lady with a ton to offer, I can tell that from your posts...even if you are a bit of a rebel rouser!! LOL! :D YOU have a good night :)

[Manchesters]

Going to shows now or not, you made a difference in your breed and you made manchesters better. Sounds like your lines and efforts will be carried on through others now. The dogs have you to thank and the future handlers and breeders of manchesters have a great mentor in their midst. You are a smart lady with a ton to offer, I can tell that from your posts...even if you are a bit of a rebel rouser!! LOL! :D YOU have a good night :)


I think down here it is called being a rAbel rouser. Rabel being the lowlife rednecks that the northern people think all southerners are, rofl. I actually came from New York (Heaven forbid!)(Ooops, if Hell ain't used, is Heaven not allowed also?)

I really have only passed on the good started by those whose dogs went into producing my dogs. Mainly Phyllis Andreason of Busy Bee Manchesters, and of course Eva Puello of Golden Scoops fame. She is the grandmother and god mother of the whole breed. (Hope God is allowed??) All those of us around today can do is to take great care with what has been entrusted to us. It is a heavy responsibility.
And I finally chickened out going on 7 years ago. I gotta try to outlive the dogs I have, so they won't be abandoned when "the big one" hits me. But wouldn't ya know, I have extremely healthy and long lived dogs!!!!!!!

It would be nice to be able to just go out and get into the car to go to Walmart without having to crate all the dogs first!!!

Ah well......a good night to all.

[stirder]

two things qualify a dog for breeding. #1 is bloodlines (parents were titled in more than one field, so were grandparents, siblings etc). #2 is the dog in question has recieved titles in more than one field.
manchesters, admin has been alerted by more than one member to watch you so I would stop the intentional use of disrespectfull language and comments.

[juliefurry]

I don't find Manchester is intentionally using disrespectful language. Whoever reported Manchester needs to lighten up.

[yuckaduck]

Well if hips and elbows xray clear at age 2 years we plan to use Yukon as a stud dog. He has a great temperment is beautiful to look at and several police agencies have been inquiring about when we will start breeding. Not before hips and elbows x ray good but he has not titles and neither does any of his family members. Does that make him no good to breed with? I would be breeding for police quality dogs and everyone of his family members has successfully served on duty. Yukon so far is training well for this as well. I guess breeding depends on many many things like what you are breeding for. Fun, not a good idea, show quality make sure you have the proper dogs to do that with, companion, or working. It all depends! I still have lots to learn and am researching lots to make sure I become a responsible breeder, and a good breeder. I only wish to improve the breed and produce high quality police dogs.

[stirder]

titles have absolutely nothing to do with it??? titles are designed to show that a dog is capable of doing what it was bred to do, but they have nothing to do with it???
I posted hastily earlier. there are a lot of health tests that need to be done to qualify as a breeding quality dog. some say temperament test but I consider those to be the same as the different titlse available to each dog.

[EliNHunter]

Ok... truce right now, everyone. You all have VERY GOOD points. And I don't see unruly language (at least in this thread). So, back off the personal attacks and let's keep it on subject, ok? Thanks!!! :D

[yuckaduck]

Did I personnally attack anyone? Did not mean too, sorry, I was only trying to make other points and have people think of more things. Never ever intended to say anything bad against anyone. Please forgive me.

[EliNHunter]

You're ok, Yuckaduck ;)

[yuckaduck]

Thanks you had me worried there for a minute!

[poeluvr]

Thanks you had me worried there for a minute!
yuckaduck lol u always say that cant u tell when u said something wrong?lol u were fine! :D

[yuckaduck]

I thought I was okay but never know how someone else reading might feel. I know what I mean to say and how I won't it taken but sometimes that is not how it happens.

[poeluvr]

tru tru

[juliefurry]

ok, I know I started this thread and the more I think about it the more I think that I have the answer. There really is NO PERFECT breeding dog, is there?

[yuckaduck]

It is in the eye of the beholder!

[Fran27]

Fran, she asked what makes a good breeding "dog", not what makes a good dog breeder.

Well yeah, but you can't know unless the breeder does the tests. So it's the same thing really... Good breeders will only breed good dogs.

[yuckaduck]

I agree good breeders breed good dogs and some back yard breeders may have good dogs but who knows for sure. A back yard breeder really has nothing to lose if you are unhappy while a good breeder has reputation to lose so they are much more reliable.

[bubbatd]

Amen !!!