Chow Chows

[juliefurry]

Ok, my husband's friend from work used to have a chow dog (they just recently put her down). She started getting really wierd, unpredictable, she'd get aggressive and back you into a corner and then right before she would bite you she'd just switch and be a good dog agian. She didn't just do this to me she did it to her owners too. They said she did stuff like that all the time, once she started getting old. So they took her to the vet to talk about the problems they were having and the vet said that chows brains constantly grow throughout their life and eventually they get too big for their skulls and the brain will press up agianst the skull and cause the dog a lot of pain. The vet said that that basically drives the dog insane and makes them do the aggressive things that the guy was saying. Is this true do Chow Chow's brains grow like that? It sounded too unbelievable to me, but lots of things that sound unbelieavable are actually true so I decided to ask you guys and see if anyone else knows.

[aurorab]

I have heard of this happening (the way she was acting) but I never heard of the brain thing b4. I agree that seems almost unbelivable. I just though it was an old age thing. can't wait to see what/ if anyone knows about this

[juliefurry]

I know there is atleast one person with a chow on this site. I don't want to scare people away from chows but this is needed to know information.

[stirder]

a friend of mine asked his vet about that before he adopted a chow mix puppy. vet said there was no medical facts to back that up, he had heard of it and said it wasnt true. but I dont know, maybe that was just one vets opinion? maybe the vet hadnt ever heard of it and didnt want to admit ignorance, but didnt think it sounded plousable?

[Ash47]

I have a Chow mix, so I can't be of that much help. But becca-4321 has two Chows, so maybe she knows whether or not this is true.

[EliNHunter]

Wow... that's FREAKY! I don't see how it could be true, though. Why would just chows be inflicted? Or Chow Chows? What's the diff between a Chow and a Chow Chow, anyway. Just size?

[juliefurry]

I think they are the same (sorry, I meant chow's). I've just grown up call Chows Chow Chows (oops). I don't know why they would be the only breed that suffers from it that's why I found it unbelievable.

[EliNHunter]

Kinda off topic here, but is it just me, or does it seem like 99.99999999% of the time a "mixed breed" is a mix with a Chow, Shepherd, or Lab????

[bubbatd]

I don't know. I've only known 2 in my life and both would take your head off !! VERY protective of owners.

[juliefurry]

I've seen a lot of husky mixes too though. But yeah LOTS of mixes are either Chow, Shepard, or Lab.

[Bella's Mom]

I find that very hard to believe..

[EliNHunter]

I find that very hard to believe..

You find what hard to believe... the brain getting bigger thing?

[Irish]

Elinhunter, I really noticed that when I was searching the shelters for my next dog. Like you said, everyone is mixed with chow, shepard of lab! BTW, my Bear, is a chow/shepard mix! :D

[EliNHunter]

LOL! Isn't it TRUE? Even my sister's "supposedly pure bred lab" (which he has all attributes of, though) has black spots on his tongue which scream CHOW! And he's got a mean streak!!!

[oriondw]

In my opinion chows are unstable as a breed in general.

[bubbatd]

Bushwacker had a small black mark.....

[EliNHunter]

Bushwacker had a small black mark.....

He did??? I don't remember that! He also had a white spot on his chest. Hmmmm....

But what's so wild, is that he was SOOO beautiful and we let him go to MN to a big dog show with someone who wanted to show him in confirmation.... and he WON! I'll try and find a pic of our beautiful Bushwacker...

[EliNHunter]

Welcome to relish in Bushwacker... he was SOOOO GREAT!!!


http://tinypic.com/8wihde.jpg

[bubbatd]

Wish you can find the one with the newspaper/cigarette and "tini !!! Mike has the slide !

[Rose's Gal]

I don't think that is true. (About the Chow/brain thing.) Doberluv had somebody tell her that about her Doberman (all Dobes were mean because their brain would get to big for its skull), so I think it is just another "fact" about the "mean" dogs that everbody knows is "true".
And I also think that just because a dog has some black/purple on its tounge doesn't mean it is a Chow mix. I saw a Purebred GSD, and it had a black dot in the middle of its tounge.

Oh, but my mom got something along these lines in an email:
You aren't fat just because you are old. When you get old, you just have so much brain, that it can't fit in your skull so it slides down into other parts of your body. So the fatter you are, the more brains you have!
LOL ;) :p

[becca_4321]

Chows and Chow Chows are the same thing. Also my husband nor I have ever heard of this thing with the brain. If it's true then thats sad. Thats all I can say. That dog was old, maybe his eye sight is failing him, must have something going on with his health. Doesnt sound like that behaviour was the norm for him.
Yes, Chows are very protective of their loved ones. They are very devoted and quite often they have that one person that they love so very much. I am that person with Gracie. She loves my husband, she loves my kids and my grandkids. She enjoys my husbands best friend, our neighbors and my sister and parents. She is fine with company and other people she has never met but if she isnt comfortable she will sit by me until she is. On walks she doesnt freak out at strangers. Just because she might be protective of me and my family doesnt mean she will bite anyone. This is why socializing a Chow as well as other breeds is so very important. If someone never socialized their German Shepards which people are highly fond of, how would that dog act towards people it didnt know? Would that dogs behaviour be the norm for all German Sherpards? Every chihuahua I have ever met was a barker, unfriendly, would bite if you got to close, and very protective of it's owner. Do I think all are like that? NO. It's just pretty much their nature if they arent socialized. I dont dislike that breed because of it.
The problem with Chows that people dont seem to realize is their eyesight. They dont have the ability to see out of the sides of their eyes. Their fur blocks so many things. So sudden movements startle them. This is why older Chows and young children do not go well together. Because of their sudden movements.
This chow you talked about has got some kind of health issue that is causing him pain. Shoot, I know humans who get cranky as hell as old people and would bite if you wasnt paying close attention. Dogs would be no different. If they have serious health issues, they hurt or they dont feel good, maybe cant even see good anymore they are bound to get cranky. Please dont classify Chows as being mean dogs. They are no different than other breeds who have been classified as mean. The only difference is, some people dont understand certain breeds. My vet explained it as of all the dogs she see's, a Chow is the only breed she is unable to read.

[Ash47]

I don't believe this. But it is interesting that someone would actually think that and I wonder what led to the thought anyway...
I love Chows. They are just very aloof. Precious is NOT aloof. She has the Lab personality all the way. Just the Chow color, tongue, and tail.

Eli,
It is sooooo true that everything is mixed with Lab. Or supposedly mixed with Lab. I know Precious is, cuz I saw her black Lab mama with the sagging teats. Never saw her daddy, but I think that part is obvious. LOL
But at the clinic, on the paperwork that new patients fill out, their dog is always mixed with "Lab." But, this could be since Labs are the most popular and most likely the most overbred dog in the US. So, with so many running around, it could very well be true. Agree, disagree??

[Ash47]

becca,
That is true with Chis. Lots of toy breeds are like this because they are carried around their whole life and not socialized. The Chi has more of a tendency to be this way though. I am not quite sure why, but I know that we did socialize Roxy like crazy. Dogs, cats, children, older people, people of different races, took her everywhere and allowed her to actually walk on the ground lots of the time so she didn't get too spoiled. Roxy is not snappy at all. Unless, I am holding her and another dog jumps on me. Then, she snaps. I spoke with a trainer about this and she said it is Roxy being protective of another dog jumping on her mama. Other than that, she does not snap.

Thank you for not generalizing the Chihuahua breed to be snappy, because of all the ones I have met, only one has been snappy. And she was old, sick, and spoiled.

[becca_4321]

Sometimes I get so upset when I hear the putdowns of Chows, yet the other bad rap breeds get defended to the end. It's as if the rules of never a bad dog only a bad owner applies to all dogs but Chows. I could find flaws in every breed. But I dont because I just simply love dogs. I know certain breeds just arent for me. I thought my ex husband was insane when he brought home a doberman with us having a baby. That was a killer breed. Yet that dog was such a sweetheart.

I always told my kids, never judge a person by their race. In your lifetime you will find that every race has it's jerks, and every race has just as many or more wonderful people in it. Same with breeds of dogs.

[juliefurry]

I didn't think that was true about the brains never stopping growing either. The guy told me that and I was just like "are you sure?" The dog was never really mean to people it was just the last three months they had it he said it just would ge wierd and since it had already lived longer than the expected life span the vet said that it needed to be put down. I don't know maybe the guy was just saying that to his wife so they could get another dog (because they got a pup soon after) and he's just trying to keep up the "illusion" of that's what really happened with the dog.

[becca_4321]

Hard telling. The dog was old. Chows can get all kinds of eye problems so chances are good that the dog had sight problems and lord knows what else. What kind of pup did he get?

[EliNHunter]

Chows and Chow Chows are the same thing. Also my husband nor I have ever heard of this thing with the brain. If it's true then thats sad. Thats all I can say. That dog was old, maybe his eye sight is failing him, must have something going on with his health. Doesnt sound like that behaviour was the norm for him.
Yes, Chows are very protective of their loved ones. They are very devoted and quite often they have that one person that they love so very much. I am that person with Gracie. She loves my husband, she loves my kids and my grandkids. She enjoys my husbands best friend, our neighbors and my sister and parents. She is fine with company and other people she has never met but if she isnt comfortable she will sit by me until she is. On walks she doesnt freak out at strangers. Just because she might be protective of me and my family doesnt mean she will bite anyone. This is why socializing a Chow as well as other breeds is so very important. If someone never socialized their German Shepards which people are highly fond of, how would that dog act towards people it didnt know? Would that dogs behaviour be the norm for all German Sherpards? Every chihuahua I have ever met was a barker, unfriendly, would bite if you got to close, and very protective of it's owner. Do I think all are like that? NO. It's just pretty much their nature if they arent socialized. I dont dislike that breed because of it.
The problem with Chows that people dont seem to realize is their eyesight. They dont have the ability to see out of the sides of their eyes. Their fur blocks so many things. So sudden movements startle them. This is why older Chows and young children do not go well together. Because of their sudden movements.
This chow you talked about has got some kind of health issue that is causing him pain. Shoot, I know humans who get cranky as hell as old people and would bite if you wasnt paying close attention. Dogs would be no different. If they have serious health issues, they hurt or they dont feel good, maybe cant even see good anymore they are bound to get cranky. Please dont classify Chows as being mean dogs. They are no different than other breeds who have been classified as mean. The only difference is, some people dont understand certain breeds. My vet explained it as of all the dogs she see's, a Chow is the only breed she is unable to read.

VERY informative post. I learned a lot myself... thanks....

[juliefurry]

it's a great dane mix. They got him from a shelter. It's suppose to be a dane and a lab, but I think they just said it's part lab because it has some black on it.

[Love4Pits]

I don't mean to offend anyone but
If this is true could this possibly be a reaction to being bred for a long time as mainly a food source? i don't know much about that breed but it does make you think.

[juliefurry]

I don't think of a Chow as a "bad" breed. I met the one Chow that this post is about and for the most part it was REALLY friendly. It was just the one day we got up to leave and the dog came in the room and just started growling and backed me up into a corner and as soon as she looked as though she was gonna bite she just changed and wagged her tail and when I put my hand out she licked it.

[BigDog2191]

Chow Chow's, huh? I've looked into this breed a lot...

They're definitely not for a new owner, they shed a lot, and from what I was told by someone who works with them, they're EXCELLENT guard dogs.

So, for an experienced owner they can make wonderful pets! :D

[oriondw]

Sometimes I get so upset when I hear the putdowns of Chows, yet the other bad rap breeds get defended to the end. It's as if the rules of never a bad dog only a bad owner applies to all dogs but Chows. I could find flaws in every breed. But I dont because I just simply love dogs. I know certain breeds just arent for me. I thought my ex husband was insane when he brought home a doberman with us having a baby. That was a killer breed. Yet that dog was such a sweetheart.

I always told my kids, never judge a person by their race. In your lifetime you will find that every race has it's jerks, and every race has just as many or more wonderful people in it. Same with breeds of dogs.


Personally my self.

Reason I sometimes defend pit's and other breeds is because I see great dogs with my own eye's. Well with chows, I have yet to see a stable, well mannered dog... Im sure they exist, but out of 10 or so I saw in my life, all of them were vicious dogs with screws loose.

[becca_4321]

Is it really the chows had screws loose or is it simply you cant read a chow and so you have convinced yourself they are a problem dog? I find it hard to believe that you have only met bad Chows out of that many. When I was in my early 20's I knew someone who bred Chows. Of all her Chows she had one that had to be penned. He was mean but guess what she did, she bred him anyway. Back then Chows were being over bred. She wasnt alone in breeding a dog like that. Every Tom, Dick and Harry out there was breeding Chows for easy money. Not only were bad dogs bred, then there were people who loved the look but knew nothing about the breed buying them. Because a Chow puppy is often very well mannered they often were left untrained, unsocialized. Then when they became adolrscence there often would be a problem.

The bad Chows you see are not because they are bad dogs, its because the owner didnt understand the breed and didnt work with them as pups. I had never had a Chow before, my husband has worked with Chows for years. He warned me ahead of time a Chow is like no other breed out there but are wonderful dogs. So I educated myself on the breed before ever taking on a Chow. I wanted to make sure I was ready for this. They are stubborn, they are funny. To someone who doesnt understand the Chow they are unreadable which makes people think they are mean. Some are. But my Lord, every breed out there has some mean ass dogs! I puppysit a pug puppy. Comparing the two breeds, my Chows have been so easy to pottytrain, the pug is taking forever. My Chows have never growled at my grand-daughter, the pug has. My Chows play with bones together, stealing them from each other....the pug gets ticked off. I walk outside my house and get barked at and growled at by 2 pomerainans daily that live next door to me. Yet that neighbor works in his yard and my Chows never bark at him or growl at him. The meter reader for the electric enters my yard to read the meter with my dogs outside. I seen her one day and went to bring the dogs in, she laughed and said I didnt have to do that, they are good dogs. We take our walks and if the boxer down the road is in his yard running free he has to be taken in or held. I see sometimes a couple of females with their young kids walking their dogs. Differnt breeds, one Chow. The Chow walks off leash the others unable to.
Its all in understanding the breed. If a person takes a Chow and doesnt understand the importance of socializing it and working with it as a pup then problems can happen. Again, that is not a flaw in a Chow, that is the mistake of the owner. I dont know what kind of people you know that they'd all have vicious Chows but believe me, there are good people in this world who have raised wonderful Chows. There are good breeders out there that love the breed and are careful about what dogs are bred and are getting very careful about who they allow to have their chows! A Chow cannot be hit or be treated in a violent way. Chows simply are often misunderstood.

[becca_4321]

Oh Bigdog, Chows dont shed alot. What happens is once or twice a year they shed heavy. You have to brush them regularly and during the shedding process you can fill a garbage bag full of fur. The rest of the time they arent shedders. And they do make good guard dogs, if that's what your after.

[oriondw]

Oh I can read dogs just fine,... They all have same body language.

I think you answered your own questions about my post with your reply :)

[becca_4321]

By the way, I forgot to say one thing. I didnt mean to sound like I was putting anyone down for defending other breeds like Pittbulls. I personally have never spent anytime around a Pitt. I've come acrossed one that was running free which I think might be one but I'm one of those people who couldnt pick one out of a crowd....I'll admit that. I think it's great so many people are fighting to educate others about these breeds that are getting bad raps. Its ok for a person to not feel certain breeds are for them. I love this little pug puppy I puppysit but I can tell you for a fact that I'd never go out and buy one! Nothing agaisnt the breed, it just isnt the one for me. So anyway, please dont think I was putting you or anyone else down for defending other dogs. Someone needs to be their voice and speak out for them.

[Ash47]

becca,
It is extremely true that you just can't read Chows. That doesn't make them a bad dog or a person mean for being a little scared. Ya know? I think Chows are a very interesting and very beautiful dog.

[puppyluva4life]

i used to have a chow. i loved him to peices but once in 14 yrs he snapped at me sigh..i luved him though

[bubbatd]

There was a Chow at the barn where we used to board our horses. He was fine with me, but in the past had bitten his owner, owner's mother and a repair man. My daughter in law went with us to visit the horses one day, and when she saw him got on her knees , grabbed both cheeks and said " Aren't you a sweetie ! " I quickly told her to stand up slowly .....luckily there wasn't a problem, but he could have taken her face off !! Unfortunately, you can't figure them out !

[becca_4321]

We was at the gas station about a week ago, had Gracie and Princess with us. I stayed in the van with the dogs while my husband ran in. Someone pulled up beside us and I heard the lady in the car say "thats not a Chow". I turned to look and the guy hollars over asking me if thats a Chow. I said yes. She got out of her car and stuck her arm in the window to pet Gracie and by then Princess had squeezed in to get her share of attention. The lady went on and on about how pretty she was and she'd never seen one that color. The hole time I'm thinking what if I hadnt been in here! Does this lady make it a habit of sticking her hands inside windows of cute dogs? I know thats kind of off topic but what you was saying Bubbatd reminded me of that.

[BigDog2191]

Yeah, whenever I see a nice-looking dog, I always ask the owner:

"Can I pet him?" Of course, I've got some sort of curse that allows me only to run into female dogs because they always go.

"She, sure you can".

LOL

[bridey_01]

Chows, hmm. It is true that they are totally unreadable and unlike any dog. Seeing as they were bred to be brutally slaughtered and eaten I don't think there was much concern with temperament. Then again, I am all for the "any puppy raised right can be a good dog" and I stick by that with chows as well. I have met three. One was a sweetheart and licked my face when I was a little girl. One did it's best to kill me and was chased off by my rottweiler. The third came up to me all friendly and lovable then bit my hand so hard it bled. That was when I was thirteen, though I don't discriminate against the breed, I don't think I have met enough to make a proper opinion on them.

[BigDog2191]

Well, about 85% of people hear knew or have been in a bad experience with a Chow. Now, I'm not breed-bashing or anything but that is a little odd.

If someone ever gets a chow, they better get it from an EXTREMELY reputable breeder and they better socialize like there's no tomorrow...

[becca_4321]

A person wanting a chow needs to know everything they can know about the breed and be willing to put alot of time into that dog. This breed is not one someone should say I want a dog, the chow is pretty lets get one. That person needs to learn all about the breed and be ready for that type of dog.
I doubt I ever would have done it except the fact my husband has dealt with chows most of his adult life. I love that attitude, that personality. But chows are not the right breed for alot of people. I talked my daughter out getting a chow because I know she doesnt have what it takes to raise a stable chow. Maybe someday, but right now, no.
I just hate it because I love coming here and knowing how so many people feel about Chows I convince myself that no one wants to see pictures of my babies or hear my chow stories. And sometimes dont think I belong here because of it. So I did get a bit defensive. Sorry about that.

[Rose's Gal]

I love Chows. But just like with any other breed, they need a responsible owner. But, unlike every other breed, an irresponsible owner or breeder means disaster. You have to be very careful on where you get your dog, and how you raise it.
I've known one Chow mix. She was mixed with Rottie. She looked like a Chow, only she had hair more like a Collie, and was black and tan. Very beautful dog. Her name was Moe.
My friend found her, and the dog just kinda hung around their house. She had been badly abused, because even though you could tell she was dying for attention, she would stay far away from you and run if you looked at her.
But when I was over at my friends, she apperently got up the courage to come over to us. She just came over and started licking us, and then laid down for a belly rub. Ever since then she was a love bug. When my friend gave her a rawhide boen, Moe just looked at it because he didn't know what to do with it. But then she figured it out and started chewing on it. She was so happy, and a very well behaved dog.
But this story doesn't have a happy ending. My friend's parents took her to the shelter because "She was a Chow" and everybody was telling them that "A Chow will turn on you. They can't be trusted".
I don't know if Moe was ever adopted, and I'll never know. It just makes me sad thinking about it. She was a perfectally fine dog, not a mean bone in her body, but they gave her up because of her breed.

Don't judge by breed, judge by the individual dog. Maybe all of you guys have had bad incounters with Chows, but what about the people who have had good incounters with them? What about the responsible breeders? Would they live with 5 or so dogs, breed them and show them, let them around their children or grandchildren, if the dogs were unpridictable? Don't judge a breed by your average ordinary owner. Judge by the people who know the breed the best.

[bridey_01]

I've stated before I dont think chows are bad and NO ONE should feel they don't belong because they have a chow! Like I said, my first experience with a chow was a happy one! I was probably like any other little girl, poking and pulling and this chow just smiled and licked my face. I would love to hear your chow stories and I am impressed that you are skilled enough in dogs to handle a chow chow

[Old Dog]

You should know the breed and its idiosyncrasies before you buy,adopt ect. Every breed has its problems be it inherent characteristics in the case of most oriental black tongue breeds this includes chows,sharpeis and akitas or labs,sheps,aussies ect. No one breed is perfect without some kind of quirks then add uneducated owners,bad breeding or in the case of rescue dogs alot of times mistreatment.....lets not be so quick to judge other breeds unless we held that leash ourselves........its just unfortunate that chows and the other one comes to mind is the malignment of the bull terrier breeds and one can go on an on..........a few bad apples and everyone is ready to condemn the barrel !!!!!!!!!

[skyhigh]

OK. I'm with Becca. There's a chow chow that comes down to our local park. She's great. Very nice dog. She's great with other dogs and doesn't atrack. Her owner has NEVER had a problem with her. This is my opinon-Dogs are what their owners teach them to be. That means, if you let your dog behav in a certain way, its your fault. There is the odd one out though. (Thats for some breeds. The breed I'm refering to is the German Shepherd) Becca, dont worry about what these guys are saying. If your chow is great-so be it. Can I ask one question? Why is their tong blue? I freaked out when i saw this chow for the first time. I thought she was sufficating. (sp?) Anyway, I'm going go now. Done enuff talking for now. LOL

[kitcatak]

I am new here and in 3 weeks I will receive my very first puppy, a red Chow Chow. I have named him Leo and my children and I are so excited to see him. I have read every single Chow related link I can find on the internet and could not find a negative comment on Chow's until I found this forum (Not this thread). I know that Chow's have a bad rep, but they are not the only breed with one. A few weeks ago, I went to see Leo. I had never been to this house before (it is my friends sister's house) and I walked in with my 3 children. Oscar, the daddy Chow, came up to me, smelled me and just hung around until they put the bigger dogs out. The mom barked at me, but from a distance of at least 6 feet. No attacking, no growling, in fact, she didn't even care that my kids went straight for the puppies (she was across the room from the puppies when we got there).

I have told many people here about getting a new puppy (I am very excited) and when they ask me what kind, I look them in the eye and say "Chow Chow". NOT ONE person recoiled in horror (although I was expecting it). They were all excited for me and told me what great dogs they were.

I know the Chow is the perfect pet for me and my family. They don't need a ton of exercise, they are very independant (will fit in well with my 3 cats!) and they are great watch dogs (my girls will be teens soon, I need a lookout about! lol) I know that I need to handle Leo daily, mess with his feet, his ears, his tail. I know I need to groom him 2-3 times or more a week so he is familiar with it and it is a normal part of life. I will also take food away from him while he is eating, to make sure that is not an issue (important with small kids around). I hope to learn a lot here and maybe I can help someone too.

Tracy

[Becca_]

Oh I'm excited to see you! I'm no longer a lone ranger here. One thing, make sure you never stop working with your dog so it always knows you are in charge. Even when he's 2, or 3, 5, or 10 whatever his age. Never stop working with your dog.

[kitcatak]

I will be trying very hard not to forget that! When I get a pet, it is family and with me forever. I want Leo to have a happy and long life!

I live in Alaska so wintertime socializing won't be the easiest thing, but I will figure something out!! I have also been reading up on different training methods and on alpha dogs (just in case). We are pretty sure Leo doesn't think he is the alpha pup, but bringing him home could change his attitude. I want to start out right!

[Becca_]

Well you have friends with Chows. Take him over to play with there, and to visit. That will help. I love that personality they have.

[MyDogsLoveMe]

From what I have heard of chows have owned 1 a blonde one that it isnt so much that the brain grows bigger than what the skull will hold but there is some increse in the size. chows are very tempramental dogs and as most will tell you they are usually 1 owner dogs also. They are one of the most loyal but can turn in a instant.

[Manchesters]

http://www.chowchows.com/

Let me know what ya'll think! And check out those pedigrees!!!!!!

[kitcatak]

I believe that to be true with any dog. A little old lady was attacked by a lab in our town just this week. I always think of labs as happy go lucky animals, but I am sure this lady isn't thinking that!

Owners need to pay attention to their dogs, period, no matter what the breed. An animal will tell you when it doesn't feel right, you just have to notice.

[kitcatak]

I have been to that sight before. My Leo should look just like that when he grows up!!!

I think that God was playing a joke when he made Chow's so cuddly looking, but so UNcuddly to those that come up and want to hug them!!!

[Becca_]

Such pretty chows at that site. Some look like they are smiling.

[Renee750il]

I think Rodent's face is my favorite. And you just KNOW there's got to be a story behind that name, lol!

[moe]

I like Reba, looks like my uncles dog from a few years back.

Mo

[jsnider]

Hi there EVERYONE!!! My baby is Simon, Leo's brother!
Nice to meet everyone!

I have to say that my sister's chows are doofy and goofy and WONDERFUL! Snuggly and love kids! Oscar even jumps on the trampoline with the kids. I know that maybe they are not the majority of chow chows... but these babies have been socialize with a hundred kids in and out from day one, and Lola (the mommy) thinks its great!
It really is all in the owner and knowing the breed and what you are dealing with.

[bridey_01]

doesn't think he is the alpha pup, but bringing him home could change his attitude
Don't get too caught up in the "alpha dog" baloney, it really isn't relative at all to dogs today. I'm glad for you and your pup, good on you for doing some research!

[Old Dog]

Oh really Bridey. Not true. No such thing as an alpha male! I've owned a male dobe my last one and had dealings with a siberian husky both were alpha males. My dobe was one till the day he died at 12. However, its hard to tell when they are young pups but you can get a fair idea at an early age just by there attitude and by the way, females can be that way too especially when one has several females that live together.

[bridey_01]

When someone says "My dog thinks he is the alpha" or "my dog is trying to dominate me" I cringe. Dogs DO NOT see us as "pack" or as other dogs. They generalize their behaviour, but they do not generalize ours!
Some dogs are a hell of alot pushier than others, and we are all tempted to say "oh he thinks he's the alpha" and pull out all those silly dominance techniques, when really we just have to be firm and clear in what we want. No, I don't believe in "alpha dogs" in the terms that they are scheming for "pack leadership" and are trying to enforce this on us by walking through doors first, lol.
But some people use the word in different contexts, so I really can't be sure how you are using it Old dog. But, trust me, I've had my fair share of doggy testosterone in the house! Try three bull terriers, a boxer and a Rhodesian Ridge back rofl

[Gempress]

I have to politely disagree, bridey. Dogs do form pack relationships with other animals, including people. I live in the heart of Texas sheep country, and livestock guarding dogs are extremely popular here. To train, a young 8-week-old puppy is put into a pen with a gentle female sheep (ewe). Human contact is very limited. The pup bonds with the sheep, and recognizes sheep as its pack. That's all there is to it: no formal training of any kind. I don't think such a relationship would be possible if dogs didn't "pack" with other animals.

Also, dogs are social animals who have an instinctive need for packs. You don't see a dog willingly on its own, and if it is, it's usually miserable. If you have only one dog, who else does your dog have to pack with except its humans? Since there are many happy, well-adjusted only dogs out there, they must be getting their pack needs met quite well by their families.

I have also had a dominant dog. I wouldn't call it being "pushy", "demanding" or any other name. He thought he was the leader, plain and simple. It took a lot of training and constant reinforcement to overcome it.

[Manchesters]

When someone says "My dog thinks he is the alpha" or "my dog is trying to dominate me" I cringe. Dogs DO NOT see us as "pack" or as other dogs. They generalize their behaviour, but they do not generalize ours!
Some dogs are a hell of alot pushier than others, and we are all tempted to say "oh he thinks he's the alpha" and pull out all those silly dominance techniques, when really we just have to be firm and clear in what we want. No, I don't believe in "alpha dogs" in the terms that they are scheming for "pack leadership" and are trying to enforce this on us by walking through doors first, lol.
But some people use the word in different contexts, so I really can't be sure how you are using it Old dog. But, trust me, I've had my fair share of doggy testosterone in the house! Try three bull terriers, a boxer and a Rhodesian Ridge back rofl

All the above shows is the very limited experience of the poster. The issue has NOTHING to do with testosterone. I have a wanna be alpha b!tch here named Robin. Since she can't be alpha, she settles for a very quick, sharp beta!

[bridey_01]

I suggest you read adriennes sticky regarding pack behaviour, where the theory developed, why it is silly to apply to modern dogs and how faulted such studies were in the first place!
Yes, it's true, I don't believe dogs scheme to move up in the "pack order" of things, because I don't believe you can apply wolf behaviours to dogs. Working proffesionally as a trainer and behaviourist six to seven days a week tends to work well at dispelling old theories that are not really relevant. That's why you don't see alpha rolls or scruff shakes in good training schools anymore.
True, bitches can be as stubborn and willful as male dogs, I was just stating that I've had some very tough what some would call "wannabe" alpha dogs.
Definetly, dogs are social animals, but when we use the term "pack" I am assuming you are using it as a strict heirachy involving extensive social interactions that follow an almost ritualised patterns?

[Manchesters]

<<using it as a strict heirachy involving extensive social interactions that follow an almost ritualised patterns?>>

Nope........someday when you are living with somewhere in the neighborhood of 28 dogs, you will have a chance to see pack behavior. No need for hierarchy (Or however it is spelled)......just one leader, and the rest all fall in line behind the leader. No battle for beta position. No battles period.....because they all know that if they start one, "grandma" will finish it.

As far as alpha males, you have not yet met a truly homicidal alpha wannabe! One that will not back down under any circumstance, and that goes homicidal at the slightest challenge. Now I personally suspect these dogs have definite chemical inbalance in their brains. They are truly insane. And it is a fearsome thing to be around or to see.

Anyway tho...........until someone lives with a pack of dogs, they are not in a position to comment on pack behavior! And just what the heck is supposed to be the great difference between "modern" dogs, and dogs of 100 years ago????? The psychology has not changed! Same as for humans! Our psychological make up is the same now as 1000 years ago. Only the stimuli changes. The reactions remain the same! Anger is still anger, sorrow is still sorrow, etc. There are only so many emotions available to people and or other animals.

Except maybe for posters on newsgroups, rofl.

[Zoom]

Granted I am not a licenced training as of yet (but apparently I get to work with one of the best in the country soon), but just from watching daycare interactions, I'd say pack behavior does still apply. There are the "alphas" and the bottom of the pack and I have watched a dog's status change in a matter of moments. We had to remove the dogs in question because none of the 'higher ups' would leave him alone; way too much dominant mounting behavior going on. We make it clear that we run the pack outside, but there is some skirmishing for second.

[Manchesters]

<<A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator.
The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because...>>

Well, the above is from Adrienne's "sticky". Looks like perhaps you missed part of it!!!!!! Seems to me it clearly supports the "alpha dog" FACT!

Once upon a time, Jim Mckay, who was the jackass moderator of the Westminster Kennel Club show--the guy was an total idiot---commented to James Clark (most highly respected dog judge, breeder, handler, and husband of Annie Rodgers Clark) commented on how you never see dog fights at the shows. Then he said to Jim Clark....."you have a bunch of dogs, do they all get along?" Jim Clark answered, "Yes......I EXPECT them to get along." We all knew exactly what he meant! He was pack leader and none of his dogs would even think of starting any itsha!!!

The problems you correct with pet dogs are very much the result of the owner surrendering the position of "alpha" to the dog. Mainly because they don't know how to assert themselves and gain the dog's respect. A dog can love you all day long, but if they don't respect you, it is only going to end in disaster. Just as with kids!!!!!!

[bubbatd]

The boss is the Alpha... I always was the Alpha with my dogs. Their pecking order was up to them, as long as I agreed with it. With Goldens, there's really no problems if they are brought up right.

[Manchesters]

Not to beat a dead horse (or dog, lol)...the people who did the initial studies on wolf behavior must have been idiots. That crapola about the alpha roll......were they blind? It was obvious the wolf involved was flopping itself onto the ground! Now, what IS a fact is the way a dam punishes her pups if they get out of line. That picture I had in my sig of Percy gives a perfect example
http://tmts.us/images/badpercy.jpg
and you can tell by the look on the pup's face that it knows it has f**'d up BIG TIME, and that doom is about to strike. And you can tell by the look on Percy's face that she has reached the point of total exasperation, lol.

THAT is how a pack leader deals with discipline problems! It is a case of YOU __WILL__ BEHAVE!!!!!!

[bubbatd]

Yes, that's where it all begins... with the Dam and then on to the owner.

[Manchesters]

Yes, that's where it all begins... with the Dam and then on to the owner.

With the look on Percy's face, THAT pup might not have survived to have an owner, roflmbo. That picture cracks me up. You KNOW that pup can feel momma's hot breath on its back, lol.

[bridey_01]

I don't believe in using the term "alpha" as it puts the misconception in people's minds that their dogs are vieing for position in some kind of imagined pack scenario, which I truly don't believe in. That is why I don't advocate hands on methods that are meant to have been derived from wolf observations.
Manchesters, I've been training proffesionally for close to ten years and privately for about fifteen, I wonder where are all these physchotic dogs that "never back down from a challenge"?
Maybe we don't have them in Australia, or maybe it's because I never "challenge" them when I'm training. I'm sure if I were to get physical with training I would see this alot more. Dogs are HUGELY different from wolves. You would know that if you had owned a wolf or wolf hybrid, they just cannot be compared.

[bridey_01]

Also, when you study behaviourism you get to look at and discuss all kind of theories that were once used, even if they are proved to be false now. The "pack theory" is one of them. When dogs go feral they will "band up" but they will in no terms form anything close to what could be termed a "pack". The social structure is ever changing and you don't see any of the ritualstice behaviour you would see in wolves.

[Manchesters]

Also, when you study behaviourism you get to look at and discuss all kind of theories that were once used, even if they are proved to be false now. The "pack theory" is one of them. When dogs go feral they will "band up" but they will in no terms form anything close to what could be termed a "pack". The social structure is ever changing and you don't see any of the ritualstice behaviour you would see in wolves.

When they show feral dogs on some of the programs on Animal Planet, they sure are following a leader......where ever the leader goes, the group goeth.

[Manchesters]

I don't believe in using the term "alpha" as it puts the misconception in people's minds that their dogs are vieing for position in some kind of imagined pack scenario, which I truly don't believe in. That is why I don't advocate hands on methods that are meant to have been derived from wolf observations.
Manchesters, I've been training proffesionally for close to ten years and privately for about fifteen, I wonder where are all these physchotic dogs that "never back down from a challenge"?
Maybe we don't have them in Australia, or maybe it's because I never "challenge" them when I'm training. I'm sure if I were to get physical with training I would see this alot more. Dogs are HUGELY different from wolves. You would know that if you had owned a wolf or wolf hybrid, they just cannot be compared.

Maybe it is because you just haven't run into them yet. You don't have the chance to encounter as many dogs as you would if you were a breeder. Old Dog told me of a couple she encountered, and I know of several from my own experience. I doubt tho that these dogs would be found in a pet senario. They would have been shot after they mauled their owners.

Perhaps after another 20 or 25 years you will have met dogs of every type. They ARE out there! But I still say that most of them MUST have a chemical imbalance of the brain!

Oh, and I knew a wolf hybrid up close and personal. I have a strong suspicion it much depends on what went into the mix. And of course there are many breeds that have retained much of the wild thinking pattern......the sled dogs, the Oriental breeds......those that have not been manipulated by people breeding for specific characteristics.

And of course, everyone has seen the programs on Animal Planet of the people who have wolf compounds, and who interact with those wolves on a daily, personal basis. Nothing at all like dealing with dogs. That is why we DOMESTICATED the wolf!

[bridey_01]

doubt tho that these dogs would be found in a pet senario
Could be true, though I do see a large amount of aggressive dogs in my line of work.

Nothing at all like dealing with dogs.
Exactly my point:) The whole alpha theory was flawed from the beginning, and even if it hadn't been we still wouldn't be able to apply such a notion to domestic dogs.
Lol, I wouldn't trust everything I see on animal planet. I worked with the council a bit on rehabilitating previously feral dogs and as a consequence got to observe some real life "dog pack" behaviour. They may have a "leader" for one day, more often though he is just the best suited for that particular day/task. They switch around all the time, one day it might be a big black male, the next a little female foxy. I may come back three days later and four dogs are now considered "the leader".
I have as yet to see a dog "challenge" his owner for the "alpha position", and am curious to know what people actually think the signs are. I've dealt with so many alpha based misconceptions, such as walking through doors first or initiating play, that I would like to know what people actually percieve as "challengning" to their status as leader.

[Melissa_W]

Nope........someday when you are living with somewhere in the neighborhood of 28 dogs, you will have a chance to see pack behavior. No need for hierarchy (Or however it is spelled)......just one leader, and the rest all fall in line behind the leader. No battle for beta position. No battles period.....because they all know that if they start one, "grandma" will finish it.

Have you ever seen that show the Dog Whisperer, Manchesters? What you said reminded me of something he said. He has a whole pack of dogs, probably 20-30 of them.

So he's standing in a sea of dogs, talking to a dog owner.

Cesar: "All of these dogs are number 2."
Dense Lady: "Well who's number one?"
Cesar: "I am."

[Manchesters]

I have as yet to see a dog "challenge" his owner for the "alpha position", and am curious to know what people actually think the signs are. I've dealt with so many alpha based misconceptions, such as walking through doors first or initiating play, that I would like to know what people actually percieve as "challengning" to their status as leader.

The basic behavioral test for alpha is putting a puppy onto the ground, on its back and see how hard it fights to get back up.

Now as for adults, when you are trying to obedience train a dog, and it eats its way up your arm, or goes for your throat---just out of the blue. They resent authority and will fight it tooth and nail.

Or any dog that you are trying to put out the door that turns around and nails you. ALPHA IS NOT SO MUCH BEHAVIOR AS IT IS ATTITUDE!!

[Gempress]

On the subject of Chows, I don't think chows deserve their bad rep. I think that the problem is that they have can have a very tough, demanding interior, inside a very cute and cuddly exterior. Many owners simply don't do their research, and end up with a tough, no-nonsense dog, when they just want a snuggly teddy bear. As a result, they don't know how to handle them.

[Manchesters]

On the subject of Chows, I don't think chows deserve their bad rep. I think that the problem is that they have can have a very tough, demanding interior, inside a very cute and cuddly exterior. Many owners simply don't do their research, and end up with a tough, no-nonsense dog, when they just want a snuggly teddy bear. As a result, they don't know how to handle them.

The other part is that most people get their Chows from back yard breeders who don't have a clue about what proper Chow temperament is, and wouldn't recognize it if it bit them on the arse. They breed for money. Combine a dog like that with a totally clueless owner, and it is a mixture for pure disaster.

[bridey_01]

Oh my goodness! You still think that "holding the puppy on it's back" thing is a test for dominance! That was dissproved eons ago!
As for dogs that turn around and eat their way up your arm without any provocation or warning? What planet are these dogs from?
Dogs that "resent authority"? it would really depend on if someone was phsyically exerting their "authority" on the dogs, in which case I would say that aggression that came from no where actually has a source.

[Manchesters]

Not dominance......a test of tractability. And these dogs are on planet earth. In another 25 or 30 years you might just run into a few.

Oh, by the way, how would YOU deal with Spaniel Rage Syndrome??????

[Whitedobelover]

they say that about dobermans too and it is crap.. they are like us once they get to a certain age their brains stop growing..


Ok, my husband's friend from work used to have a chow dog (they just recently put her down). She started getting really wierd, unpredictable, she'd get aggressive and back you into a corner and then right before she would bite you she'd just switch and be a good dog agian. She didn't just do this to me she did it to her owners too. They said she did stuff like that all the time, once she started getting old. So they took her to the vet to talk about the problems they were having and the vet said that chows brains constantly grow throughout their life and eventually they get too big for their skulls and the brain will press up agianst the skull and cause the dog a lot of pain. The vet said that that basically drives the dog insane and makes them do the aggressive things that the guy was saying. Is this true do Chow Chow's brains grow like that? It sounded too unbelievable to me, but lots of things that sound unbelieavable are actually true so I decided to ask you guys and see if anyone else knows.

[Manchesters]

they say that about dobermans too and it is crap.. they are like us once they get to a certain age their brains stop growing..

Or are you being facetious here? Oh, and the statements about Chow temperament are not crap. They are based upon the experiences of people who had the misfortune to encounter backyard bred Chows with lots of loose screws!

And there are just as many BYB Dobermans...like all the White Dobes.....that are nutso!

The dog you show in your picture almost looks like an Isabella rather than a white. Of course with indoor pictures ya can't go by color...I know. Do both dogs have blue eyes? It was kinda hard finding a blue with a good dark eye. I had one, which was funny, because her pedigree was absolute garbage, rofl.

[bridey_01]

Rage syndrome is a whole nother matter. I've been fortunate enough to only encounter one example of this, and yes it was in a cocker spaniel!
Testing for "tractability" by rolling a puppy on it's back is just ridiculous. So much depends on how much the puppy has been handled, what breed it is and how it is structured physically that the results can never be deemed to be a test of it's actual character or what the dog will be like when it's older. You can get a pup that will scream blue murder when you roll it on it's back, but you can condition it to loving that and have a perfect dog. You can get a dog that loves it but still has all kinds of behavioural problems later in life.

[Manchesters]

Rage syndrome is a whole nother matter. I've been fortunate enough to only encounter one example of this, and yes it was in a cocker spaniel!
Testing for "tractability" by rolling a puppy on it's back is just ridiculous. So much depends on how much the puppy has been handled, what breed it is and how it is structured physically that the results can never be deemed to be a test of it's actual character or what the dog will be like when it's older. You can get a pup that will scream blue murder when you roll it on it's back, but you can condition it to loving that and have a perfect dog. You can get a dog that loves it but still has all kinds of behavioural problems later in life.

And please share with us how many 3- 4 weeks old puppies you have worked with? Perhaps if you had had the opportunity to try it out with a few hundred pups over 30 years, and seen how the results correlated to adult behavior, it would not appear so ridiculous! And along the way it also helps to instill trust in the baby puppy.

I guess you will just never be able to see things from the viewpoint of the breeder.....the one who creates the behavior in the dogs. You have to experience it to fully understand it. The only kind of behavioral problems the majority of dogs have are those created by the owners, and by ignorant backyard breeders who have no concept of breeding for temperatment.

Oh......and rage syndrome is also another form of dominance challenging. The dog/dogs refuse to submit to human authority. Old Dog can tell you the fun she had during a standoff with a Husky that only wanted to kill her. An interesting story! My two experiences were with Dobermans.

[bridey_01]

In my experience rage syndrome is kind of a blind frenzy of aggression, sometimes unprovoked. The breeder may "create the behaviour in dogs" but it is the future owner who is almost always responsible for the emergence of bad behaviours. A dog can have been an obedience champion and an angel to live with, but that same dog rehomed will present all the normal problem behaviours in a matter of weeks with the wrong owner. I don't believe in forcing dogs to "submit" in any manner, and would be quite silly to not expect a bite in response. Lol, I don't work with many three to four week old puppies, they tend not to have exceedingly dissagreeable behaviour problems!
But I can tell you that I have seen the ill-effects of such "rollings" in puppies from seven weeks old, who veiw their people as strange insecure things that force them onto their backs in vulnerable and scary positions for no particular reason.

[Old Dog]

Bridey
This is an excellent site on dominance behavior in dogs. The husky manchesterz is refering to did not have rage syndrome, he had a dominance problem explained perfectly in this article. Since I believe I read in a previous post of yours that dogs do not try to do the dominance thing over people. WRONG!! There are leaders and followers and every so often we get dogs that want to be leader in a household but we must teach them that as owners we are the "TopDog" in the house.This is a owner encouraged behavior by allowing the dog to get away with and be the boss. They can be well mannered as long as it is agreeable with them but just don't cross them. The dog in question I had the misfortune of boarding. He was a very dominant dangerous male. The only dog I have ever been seriously afraid of in all my 40 some odd years in dogs. And this is saying alot since I have been breeder,trainer, handler,groomer and vet and set scads of different dogs in my life. I hope you never have to deal with such an animal.

[Old Dog]

That should be vet-tec in previous post, computer had a seizure there for a minute!! I am not a vet. LOL

[Old Dog]

Well Bridey the
seemed to have not pasted the site.........sorry you guys
http://www.joycefay.com/articles/dominantdogs.shtml

[Old Dog]

And just in case you didn't like that one here's another....
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/140215.htm&hide=1

This one explains all the aggression behaviors.

[oriondw]

Dogs show dominance. Thats the way they are built, there are alpha dogs and submissive dogs by nature... While some people's methods of establishing dominance are flawed, it doesnt mean that dominance in dogs does not exist.

[Manchesters]

I have been to that sight before. My Leo should look just like that when he grows up!!!

I think that God was playing a joke when he made Chow's so cuddly looking, but so UNcuddly to those that come up and want to hug them!!!

Sarah would love to see the pedigree for Leo. She has only seen one other brindle which she got as a rescue and gave away as a pet. Leo will resemble a early 1900's type Chow when he grows up. Pointed nose, round eyes, fine boned, usually very hyper, and average coat.

[rottiegirl]

That is not true at all! People also say that about dobermans. It is just a myth that some people believe, but it has no truth to it. Trust me!

[kitcatak]

Rottiegirls- What is untrue. Sorry, I don't know what statement you are referring to.

[gaddylovesdogs]

The neighbors who we got Tippy from had a red chow named Mr. B...he seemed nice enough, he was an OK dog, but I have always been weary of them. They do tend to be more dominant and aggressive than other breeds. BUT I do not think they are horrible dogs. Mr. B. was a nice dog, he was really just a big fuzzy dog with bad owners, but I was always a little careful around him.
I was almost attacked by a chow a few months ago, at the same time I was almost attacked by a mutt (looked like a gsd/cattle dog mix). As far as I'm concerned, in that case the mutt was waaaay more dangerous than the chow.

[Becca_]

I dont understand what it is about the pedigree Sarah always wants to see on these chows. No one else shows pictures of their puppies and asked to show a pedigree. What am I missing here? I find it kind of insulting. I guess I'd understand it if we wanted to show our dogs.

[Manchesters]

I dont understand what it is about the pedigree Sarah always wants to see on these chows. No one else shows pictures of their puppies and asked to show a pedigree. What am I missing here? I find it kind of insulting. I guess I'd understand it if we wanted to show our dogs.

For those of us involved in breeding and showing dogs, pedigrees show where the dog comes from bloodline wise. Many of us become pedigree nuts! I suspect she wants to see the pedigree to see what lines are behind the dogs, etc. There is nothing insulting about it. Every one who buys a purebred dog should be supplied with at least a 5 generation pedigree. Anyone who plays at breeding dogs should have pedigrees on their dogs, and know how to read them before breeding.

I have the pedigrees on my dogs posted on my website for any and all to see if they so desire. I myself am very proud of my dogs' pedigrees, and am always more than happy to share them with others.

And in this case, IF it were me, and I knew anything about Chow bloodlines, I would be curious as hell to see what lines had produced brindle coloring. Call is nosey---dying of curiosity---but not intended as insulting. Did you ever send in and get the pedigrees of yours? Of course, you should have been supplied with a copy of the pedigree.

AND.....by seeing Leo's or any other Chow's pedigree, Sarah can tell the family story behind the dog.....if there are any known lines behind it. Some people enjoy knowing what is behind their dogs.

[Becca_]

I was just curious about that. I do have one with Gracie. It's been put up. I was just curious what Sarah can find by looking at them. Maybe if she recognizes any names along the line? Or if they have champions in their bloodline?

[Manchesters]

I was just curious about that. I do have one with Gracie. It's been put up. I was just curious what Sarah can find by looking at them. Maybe if she recognizes any names along the line? Or if they have champions in their bloodline?

If it is a 5 generation pedigree and there are no recognizable kennel names, that tells that it is nothing but a pet pedigree, and the dog should not be used for breeding in any way shape or form because there is no way of predicting the quality it might produce. There are many pet bred dogs that are referred to as "by nothing, out of nothing". It is vitally important to know what is behind your dog if you want to know what your dog is going to look like when grown, what personality it might have, etc. etc.

Same as with Manchesters. Thanks to doG there are hardly any backyard Manchester breeders!!!!!!!! So the lines and the quality stays high.

[Becca_]

I'm sorry, I still dont get why Sarah wants to see the pedigrees. Is it she wants to see if we have show dog material or more like she can look, laugh and say she couldnt have gotten 50 cents for that dog? After all, like you say, most of us couldnt afford to buy one of her dogs. She gave away puppies that would never make the shows? When I decided I wanted another dog, I would have taken a rescue, I wouldnt have cared what the pedigree said, or if it even had one. My plan has never been to breed or to show, just to love. That's it. To give a good home to a dog.
Maybe it's because some of us have never devoted our life to breeding champion dogs that makes it not so important if there isnt champion blood in their line or if it comes from a kennel known for it's champion bloodlines.I'm not trying to be difficult, and please dont think I'm being huffy because as I sit here typing this, I'm not feeling at all huffy. :) I just dont understand why other breeds of puppies are shown and no one ever ask if they can see the pedigree to determine if it was from a recognized breeder known for putting out great dogs.

[Manchesters]

I'm sorry, I still dont get why Sarah wants to see the pedigrees. Is it she wants to see if we have show dog material or more like she can look, laugh and say she couldnt have gotten 50 cents for that dog? After all, like you say, most of us couldnt afford to buy one of her dogs. She gave away puppies that would never make the shows? When I decided I wanted another dog, I would have taken a rescue, I wouldnt have cared what the pedigree said, or if it even had one. My plan has never been to breed or to show, just to love. That's it. To give a good home to a dog.
Maybe it's because some of us have never devoted our life to breeding champion dogs that makes it not so important if there isnt champion blood in their line or if it comes from a kennel known for it's champion bloodlines.I'm not trying to be difficult, and please dont think I'm being huffy because as I sit here typing this, I'm not feeling at all huffy. :) I just dont understand why other breeds of puppies are shown and no one ever ask if they can see the pedigree to determine if it was from a recognized breeder known for putting out great dogs.

It is not that some people breed to produce champion dogs. Some breed to preserve the breed, and to build and improve upon it. If only backyard breeders bred Chows, you wouldn't be able to tell if a dog was a Shepherd, a Coyote or supposedly a Chow.

Every breed has a breed standard. Dogs are supposed to be bred to match that standard as closely as possible. If there was a dog in the back of your pedigree that had seizures and had been known to throw seizures, wouldn't you want to know? If there were dogs that had a high rate of cancer, wouldn't you want to know? And if they produced offspring with a high rate of cancer, wouldn't you want to know that? A pedigree is a tool. But it is only of use to those who know how to use the tool. Pet owners know nothing about linebreeding, inbreeding or outcrossing, or when to do which.

It costs just as much to feed and raise a poor dog as it does a good dog. In fact it can cost MORE to raise a poorly bred dog if it happens to have health problems.

However all that is beside the point. I am sure that Sarah wanted to see Leo's pedigree to see what lines were behind him. A friend of mine who bred and showed Dobermans, and who had a Demetrius daughter bred to a top producing champion male happens to be in the background of the first white Doberman. Both George and Barbara were SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To think that after years of careful breeding and loving the breed their dogs would be bastardized in such a way.

So, if you find it an imposition if someone wants to see a pedigree on one of your dogs........then you don't yet understand what a pedigree is. It is no more belittling or insulting than someone asking where your grandparents were from, or what nationalities are in your background.

Of course a pedigree is no use if you don't know how to read it, rofl.

Anyway.........I was wondering if maybe Sarah were curious to see if there were any of the same dogs as in the one she took in for rescue. And nope, she did not give pet puppies away. She gave that dog away just to have a good home for it and to get it off her property. She did not have the space for another dog.

She seldom had any "pet" quality puppies. And she usually had more people waiting for pups than she ever had pups available.

I am going to pass out. Much too hot outside. Still hanging in at 90 degrees. And I still have a ton of stuff to do. These breaks I have to take are making it hard to get anything accomplished!!!!!!! But when you flat run out of ooompf....you gotta come in and cool off!!!!!

[Manchesters]

I dont understand what it is about the pedigree Sarah always wants to see on these chows. No one else shows pictures of their puppies and asked to show a pedigree. What am I missing here? I find it kind of insulting. I guess I'd understand it if we wanted to show our dogs.

Most of the pups shown here are mutts. That is why no one asks to see a pedigree. And also the only dogs I know anything about pedigree-wise are Whippets and Manchesters. Now just how many pictures of either of those breeds have you seen posted lately?

[Becca_]

lol, hope I'm not making you mad. It's saturday, I'm home and I'm bored. You just got my mind rolling with thoughts and questions and I feel like a 3 year old saying "why, well why".

[Becca_]

You said: "She seldom had any "pet" quality puppies. And she usually had more people waiting for pups than she ever had pups available."
This is kind of what I am getting at. She didnt breed dogs for pets then right? Her intention was to breed for winning.
Gracie before she came home
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/becca_4321/babygracie.jpg
Gracie at 5 months old
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/becca_4321/ashgracie5m.jpg
Not show dog material, but I dont care. I fell instantly in love with her. I knew when I got her she'd never be bred, or shown. Gracie is my pride and joy. In my eyes she is a champion. In the eyes of someone like Sarah she would shake her head most likely because she isnt designed to show.

It's no 92 here but it's still hot out. I cant wait until fall. I love the fall. Can have windows open again, wear sweatshirts, plus its so pretty to see the leaves turn colors.

[kitcatak]

Becca she is adorable!!!! I love chow puppies! I am sure no one picked up on that yet!! lol

Manchester- Hey! Thanks for the sun & warm weather. The rain left us and it is gorgeous outside!!! lol

I have Leo's pedigree. You are correct, it means nothing to me at all. I like haveing a puppy that is unique! Oh, I meant to tell you. There is NOTHING hystrung about Leo at all. He has puppy playfulness (especially with my poor kitties!), but he is pretty mellow!

[Manchesters]

Becca she is adorable!!!! I love chow puppies! I am sure no one picked up on that yet!! lol

Manchester- Hey! Thanks for the sun & warm weather. The rain left us and it is gorgeous outside!!! lol

I have Leo's pedigree. You are correct, it means nothing to me at all. I like haveing a puppy that is unique! Oh, I meant to tell you. There is NOTHING hystrung about Leo at all. He has puppy playfulness (especially with my poor kitties!), but he is pretty mellow!

Someone who is breeding to preserve a breed is striving to produce dogs as close to the breed standard as possible. Breeders DO NOT breed to produce pets. They breed to improve the breed and to perpetuate it. There are tons of Chows that do not even LOOK like Chows.

There will often be puppies that do not quite match the breeder's idea of perfection, and these puppies will often be sold to those simply wanting a pet. Over the years Sarah has sold pups to people who were not interested in showing, but those puppies were something the person could be proud of, and not have to worry about people asking them 'Is that a Chow?????" There was no doubt it was a Chow, rofl.

People who just want to make money selling dogs are not a credit to the breed, nor should we support them or their efforts. A breeder breeds with the full intent of keeping all the pups for showing and breeding. BYBs breed strictly to sell and make money. They do not care if they are helping to ruin a breed, as long as they make money off the dogs.

There are two things that Chows are known for. HEAD and COAT. It helps if you have at least one of those two things!!!!

[Manchesters]

Becca she is adorable!!!! I love chow puppies! I am sure no one picked up on that yet!! lol

Manchester- Hey! Thanks for the sun & warm weather. The rain left us and it is gorgeous outside!!! lol

I have Leo's pedigree. You are correct, it means nothing to me at all. I like haveing a puppy that is unique! Oh, I meant to tell you. There is NOTHING hystrung about Leo at all. He has puppy playfulness (especially with my poor kitties!), but he is pretty mellow!

When a breeder makes a statement about temperament in a dog of a particular breed, they are talking about the dog as an adult. You may not want to even KNOW Leo when he turns 2 years old. Only time will tell. Now, someone with Sarah's experience could likely tell you by seeing the dogs in the pedigree just what to expect when Leo reaches emotional maturity. If there are lines there that she can research back far enough.

Just like the lady that got me addicted to Manchesters---she knew and had seen every dog in my dogs' pedigrees, and knew what they were like, and what kind of temperament they threw. That is invaluable information. It is another tool for helping to raise a mentally and emotionally sound adult dog.

But hey.......that is up to you. You have her email.

Glad the weather cleared up for you. I came in and crashed out for a couple of hours. I was wiped out. And still have sooooooo much more to do. But I will get it done slowly. I had everything looking so nice and neat around here for a couple of months......till Dennis hit. It took until April to get everything cleaned up from the horrors of Ivan. And being so sick and so weak for so long thanks to the RMSF did not help in the least!!!!!!!

I am so tired of picking up twigs and branches!! But heck at the rate things are going, the poor trees are going to end up looking like celery stalks!!!!!!!!!

A good night to all.

Oh-Tracy........the pedigree is not too hard to at least read---first names listed are the parents. Then the grandparents are next back (you have paternal and maternal grandparents for both his mom and dad.) Then come the greatgrandparents--paternal and maternal both mom and dad, etc, etc.

The thing is to make sure that the parents aren't brother or sister or have any father/daughter breeding in the background.

Once upon a time Sarah got a dog as a rescue......she told me I HAD to come see it....it had the skinniest bone she had ever seen. She finally got the pedigree and it turned out the dog was out of father/daughter and the mother was also the father's granddaughter!!!!!!! That was when I came up with "incest is best".
Sickening.

[kitcatak]

Some people are just dumb (the inbreeding part). I figured that much out, but I have no idea who any of those dogs are, so the names mean nothing to me.

Well, Leo might not be the "right" color, but he is definitely a chow!

[Becca_]

Princess would fall under what Manchester talks about. The person who got Princess, dont know if they paid for her or not, was told she was full blooded chow. They swore up and down she was full blooded. No way can she be! If she is, then she is one of them that sure doesnt look it. The breeder lied. We didnt pay for her. We took her to give her a nice home.
I think Leo is adorable and cant wait til he's a little older to see how she changes in his looks.

[kitcatak]

Oops. I meant I figured out how to READ the pedigree, I just don't know the dogs therefore it means nothing.