Some advice needed.. Long

[Perywinkle]

I wrote out a very very long post, but took so long I got timed out and lost it all! Now that I think about it though, it was rather long so I am going to try and cut this shorter.

First of I think some background information is needed here.

Dogs

Sadie: The main problem. She is a spayed Female Jack Russell Terrier, who will be two in August. She belongs to me. Dominant dog of the pack.

Holly: Sadie's littermate, my mom went and got her two days after I got Sadie. Very submissive probably lowest ranking of the Jack's.

Gracie: My parents 5 year old Jack Russell. Not related to the other two. Middle of the pack. She is a Shorti Jack, she is very gentle and loving but also very very fearful of strange dogs and people.

Buttons: 12 Year old Min pin. Not sure where she would rank and she really does not have much interaction with the other dogs. She never was playful even as a puppy.

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All the dogs are trained (minus the min pin who doesn't wander) to an electric fence which covers two acres, they are outside probably a good 3 hours a day (give or take depending on the weather) playing and chasing each other, plus I am often outside throwing tennis balls or fetching the "big ball" when it goes out of bounds. They usually all crash around 8 at night and sleep all through the night.

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Now onto the main problem:

Incident one:

Several months ago Sadie went after Buttons when something startled Buttons and she went flying out of her bed. She grabbed Buttons by the scruff and threw her to the ground. Buttons does not play, and she hates being on her back so she automatically went to the defensive and started biting anything she could get her mouth on. My first responce was to stick my hand inbetween the two of them (Stupid I know), and my thumb got chewed up by Buttons but not by Sadie even though I was in front of her mouth. Sadie quickly removed herself off Buttons when I yelled at her and Buttons went running again only in incounter Holly. By this point my parents had heard the commotion and it turned into a game of catch that Buttons which Holly was happy to play. Again Buttons was grabbed by the scruff and thrown down. Again Holly quickly got off her when she was yelled at.

We checked Buttons over, she was scared but seemed unharmed. The next day we found her knuckling over. Buttons is old and very fragil compared to the roughness the pups are use to and they caused her to have a slip disk. We rushed her to the emergency vet who gave her anti-inflammatories and pain killers and she was put on two weeks of cage rest minimum. It took months for Buttons to get back to normal.

There was no growling, no hackles raised, no whites of eyes showing. Talking it over with the vet we came to the conclusion that they where trying to play with her, as that is how the two sister play with each other. Very rough and by throwing each other down. We still never let the puppies (As they are still known) and Buttons loose together just a precaution.

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Incident two:
This happened I believe about a week ago. My mom was upstairs and all three Jack where up there with her. All the sudden there was a commotion coming from the bathroom and she found Sadie on top of Gracie trying to pull her over by the scruff. She said it definantly was not like when they played. Gracie was so stunned all she did was tense her body and put her head down, she didn't even try to defend herself.

Gracie was unharmed, but we took her to the vet any way just to make sure. She is 3 pounds heavier then the pups and very rarley do they suceed in knocking gracie over during play.
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Incident Three:
My Grandmother recently got a Jack puppy dumped on her by my cousin, who got her as a Valentines day gift and "didn't have time for her". She is nearly 80 and cannot even begin to give her the amount of exercise needed for a dog her breed and age. So several times a week I take one our dogs over there. Gracie is terrified of strange adult dogs but loves puppies. This time not even thinking about the incident earlier in the week, it was Sadie's turn to go. Sadie has played with Lucy several times and they got along great. Sadie even tolerated being chewed on by the puppy (she is around 4 months old). This time something was different. Sadie didn't want to play, normally the second they meet Sadie is ready and willing to bound after her. After a second of them coming nose to nose all the sudden Lucy is crying and Sadie is grabbing her by her scruff.

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Punishment:

All three incidents Sadie was reprimanded. The first time by being told she was a bad girl (she is very very sensative to getting in trouble, at the word bad she runs up and hides under my bed) and put in her bad girl crate (a travel carrier that she hates) for 10-15 minutes. The second time I did the same punishement. The third time I was beyond angry and for the first time every I grabbed her by her scruff and spanked her and kept repeating what a bad girl she was. I felt horrible afterwards, this behavior is unacceptable, but I felt I never should of hit her.

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My main problem is I cannot connect the dots on what is setting her off. She plays so well with the other dogs most of the time, I have never seen her more happy then when she has another dog by her side. All the dogs she has gone after are dogs she has played with, slept with, she licks them and they even take bones right out of each others mouths without any issues. She shows no warning signs before attacking, which shows me she is both dangerous and a coward.


Sadie also seems to respect me and the other humans around her as Dominant and responds to her commands very very well. Even during the attacks when I yelled at her to stop she did right when I told her. She is very attached to me, so I thought it could possibly be resource guarding on me, but with Gracie I was not around when the incident happened.

Can anyone spot something I am missing, or have any suggestion on how to stop this behavior before it gets worse? Or is Sadie maturing in a dog that is becoming "dog aggressive" and going to have to be kept solo? Is there something I did not knowingly to encourage this behavior?

I wont give up on Sadie. If it comes down to her having to be solo then that is how it will be, I always planned on getting two more dogs once I got my own place, but Sadie is my main priority right now and what is best for her and for the other dogs around her is what is going to take place.

Perywinkle

[Dekka]

First off same sex JRTs should NEVER EVER be left alone together. Every year there is an insident on some list or forum I am on where someones JRT kills the other. The JRTCA website even stresses that JRTs of the same sex should not be kept in the same household except by very experienced JRT person. The breeder should not have sold your mom a female littermate if she knew they were going to be together, that is VERY irresponsible!!!!! and makes me very angry:mad:

There are too many things going on to really advise over the internet. But you need to manage them much better.

[Perywinkle]

For the most part none of them are ever left along together. They are kept in seperate cages when we leave the house and my mom was in the attached room during the incident. If no one is in the house they are kept in seperate pens, never loose.

By managing better what would you suggest?

Perywinkle

[Zoom]

I think Sadie's SSA/DA is starting to come out and she's going to have to be a solo JRT. With the help of an experienced behaviorist, you might be able to keep her playing with a group, but it's going to take a lto of work. Dogs with DA can turn "on" in a split second and go from playing to fighting, with disasterous results.

As for now, Sadie should never be allowed to be around other dogs unsupervised, even for a moment. If you are not standing right there, she needs to either be with you or seperated somehow.

Good luck!

[bubbatd]

I'm so sorry that you have these problems . I personally have never had to separate dogs or cage them . I hope that you can work things out . I would hate it if my family dogs didn't get along . Hope that you can work things out !

[Perywinkle]

I'm so sorry that you have these problems . I personally have never had to separate dogs or cage them . I hope that you can work things out . I would hate it if my family dogs didn't get along . Hope that you can work things out !

Thanks Bubbatd, this living situation is only temporary, and if it gets to the point that it is between getting rid of Sadie or moving out, I would move into an apartment in a heart beat. It would just take longer for me to get a house and that is a sacrafice I would make for her.


Right now Sadie is on "parol" meaning when she is out for supervised play with the other dogs she has the shock collar on and whoever is keeping an eye on them has the control attached to them. I hate using it, but she remembers her manners when she has it on and a little shock (Which she responds to big time) vs one of them getting seriously hurt, is worth it to me. She also gets a lot of praise when she plays nice and shares her toys.

As for her playdates with Lucy, that one is easy to solve as I wont be letting her have them anymore.

I will probably call the vet tomorrow and see if he can refer me to any behavorialist in the area.

Perywinkle

[elegy]

i would stop with the shock collar. punishment is never recommended with aggressive behavior. it can often escalate it.

i would either have her put away or put on a leash. i agree- you need to manage her better. don't let her get in a situation where she can make the wrong choices. if she's around the other dogs, she needs to be attached to you and/or you need to have your attention 100% on her so that you can interrupt and redirect her if she starts to target the other dog. this needs to happen at the very beginning of the sequence, not when she's actually in the act of aggressing.

[lizzybeth727]

Personally, I wouldn't even let her interract with the other dogs at all until you can get a behaviorist to help you. The problem with aggression is that it's very self-rewarding - it's a huge release of emotions and dogs who aggress once tend to do it more often afterwards. With two incidences in the same week, you can be pretty sure that it will happen again unless you are managing very closely. By that I mean Sadie and any dogs playing in her reach should not be allowed to mouthe each other (even play mouthing), wrestle, vocalize, pack run, play with toys, jump on each other, or any other behavior that MAY escalate to aggression. And the play sessions must be short - only about 5 minutes or less. Generally this is too difficult to manage, and if that is the case the best thing to do would be to completely keep Sadie isolated from the other dogs until a behaviorst can observe and assess the situation.

I agree about the shock collar. I also think that telling her she's a bad girl, spanking, and putting her in the crate she hates are most likely not helping the situation, and probably making it worse. IF you choose to let her play with the other dogs before a behaviorist consults, you should keep Sadie on a leash and keep a bottle of water in your hand (preferably cold water). When something happens, grab Sadie's leash, and pull her away from the other dogs, saying "HEY" or whatever might get her attention. If she won't let go, dump the bottle of water on her face. As soon as she does let go, immediately separate her from the other dogs - put her in another room, or her crate that she sleeps in. Then, get another bottle of cold water, and dump it on YOUR head, for letting the situation escalate to that point before getting a consultation from a behaviorist. All you're trying to do is get her to let go of the other dog (the water), and separate from the other dog to calm down (the crate). Punishing will only cause more aggression.

[milos_mommy]

Okay, this is DITTO to the problem i had with Milo.

Do NOT use a shock collar. SOMETHING is setting her off, and a shock collar will make the behavior worse. You need to stop this NOW. Because if it doesn't stop, the fights will escalate and they will result in bloodshed.

Get the book "click to calm" by Emma Patterson. Read it. Follow what it says. It will change your life.

Do not lock her in her "bad girl" crate when she does this. Remove her from the situation. Put her in a quite room to calm down. You can sit with her, let her chew a toy. Don't make a big deal out of it. You can yell "BAD" "NO" or "STOP" while she's fighting another dog but after you grab her, don't speak to her, don't look at her, just get her away from the situation.

Watch her for behaviors that happen before fights. They won't necessarily be regular signs of aggression, growling or circling or anything. She might pace, bark in a very high pitched manner, try and run away or hide, or stand up very very tall and nervously or start shaking. If you see these signs or any other that coincide with a fight, remove her before it happens.

[Perywinkle]

Thanks so much for all the info guys. I never used the shock collar on her before and it was killing me to have to use one on her now. She was always raised with positive re-inforcement and she responds so well to voice commands and sign language both, that I never even thought about using negative reinforcement before now. I never did shock her with it, I just wanted something there as protection for the other dogs. Right now she is on minimal contact with them, and is either by my side in a room, outside by herself or I am outside playing ball with her. She absolutley loves playing with the tennis ball.

Milos_mommy, I have the book on order from the library. I do have a clicker trainer for her, and I started training her when she was a puppy but lost it when I moved and just refound it a few weeks ago.

I have an appointment with the vet to go over some stuff and talk about a behavioralist for her on Wednesday.

Thanks again!

Perywinkle

[Maxy24]

Great advice from everyone I just wanted to make sure you understand something about dog aggression. It's common in Jack Russel Terriers, it cannot be trained out but it most certainly can be managed. I think many people have the "temperament is all training" attitude but with dog aggression in terriers genetics is what it often is. So now you must learn to prevent and manage. Does she have any issues meeting dogs on walks?