Carlie has some red, hairless spots...

[*Amy*]

She has two spots on her back left leg and one spot on her tail. The spots are reddish pink and are missing hair. I'm taking her in to the vet tomorrow because I'm not sure what they are. They're going to do an exam on her and then do a "skin scraping" and look at the skin cells under a microscope. I thought it was just from wrestling with Vixie, but I've seen them play and Vixie doesn't rip out Carlie's fur so it must be something else. We gave her 12mg of Benadryl last night and this morning thinking maybe that it's some sort of allergy, but we're not sure. Here is a picture where you can see one of the spots:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/crystalspark999/secretsanta013.jpg
I'm at work so that's the only one I have right now (it's from a previous post), but I can post more pics later if need be.

Any ideas of what it could be? I hope it's nothing serious.. I'm not looking forward to the vet bill tomorrow since I'm taking them both in (I had already scheduled Vixie for her first exam there and they just added Carlie in). It's going to be fun taking them in together!

[Buddy'sParents]

Hope it's nothing serious... could be mites or an allergy.

[*Amy*]

Hope it's nothing serious... could be mites or an allergy.

It could be mites.. I didn't think about that.

[jess2416]

Hope its nothing too serious, keep us updated :)

[SummerRiot]

I dont think it would be mites or she would have other areas affected first.

It could be allergic dermatitis, it could be irritant dermatitis, it could be alopecia, it could be that she was licking/chewing that spot as well could even be ringworm..

Is she hairless anywhere else? Does she itch it?

Unfortunately Benadryl type dugs only work in maybe 25% of dogs.. its usually a steriod that works best for allergy cases like Vanectyl P or Pred... Always worth a shot though!

Do you have any cortizone cream at home? If you do you might want to put a little bit on it to try and calm the reddness down in it.. make sure she doesn't lick/chew it while the cream is on though ;)

[*Amy*]

Hope its nothing too serious, keep us updated :)
Thanks. :) I will.

I dont think it would be mites or she would have other areas affected first.

It could be allergic dermatitis, it could be irritant dermatitis, it could be alopecia, it could be that she was licking/chewing that spot as well could even be ringworm..

Is she hairless anywhere else? Does she itch it?

Unfortunately Benadryl type dugs only work in maybe 25% of dogs.. its usually a steriod that works best for allergy cases like Vanectyl P or Pred... Always worth a shot though!

Do you have any cortizone cream at home? If you do you might want to put a little bit on it to try and calm the reddness down in it.. make sure she doesn't lick/chew it while the cream is on though ;)

She's only hairless in 4 spots.. 2 small spots on her tail and 2 spots on one leg. I haven't seen her itch the spots at all which is weird because they sure look itchy to me. Maybe she's itching the spots when I'm not looking (like at night).

I don't have any cortizone cream otherwise I would try that...I tried Aveeno (a lotion with oatmeal in it) on one of the spots, but then I wasn't sure if I should keep putting it on it.

I just really want to know what it is. I'm so glad they had an opening for her at the vet tomorrow! Skin issues are not fun. :(

[SummerRiot]

Skin Issues are really one of the worst to treat.. they could be so many different things..
without a skin scrap or a very knowledgable vet..

Definately let us know what it is tomorrow!!

[*Amy*]

Well, here is what we found out today! Carlie has Demodectic Mange. FUN. A positive thing about it, though, is that it's "localized demodicosis" which is the mildest form of it and Carlie can most likely completely recover from it. If you're not aware of what Demodectic Mange is, it is a skin disease caused by a microscopic parasitic mite (which I got to see in the microscope..pretty cool). These mites are found in the hair follicles of all dogs, but in some dogs (like Carlie) they proliferate and large numbers of them inhabit the skin and hair follicles. Luckily, this type of Mange cannot spread to any other dogs or people. We got a topical ointment to put on the spots daily and she also got some antibiotics to help clear it up faster. They should be gone in a few weeks and not come back. Hopefully. What I find strange is, how come she acquired this Mange right after we got Vixen? The vet said that dogs that get Mange get it because their immune system is weaker than other dogs. So, is Vixen stressing out Carlie and making her immune system weaker? Just wondering.

Does anyone else know more about this or have experienced it? I'm going to do some research on it because I'm curious as to what the chances are that this is going to be a recurring thing.

[OutlineACDs]

The vet said that dogs that get Mange get it because their immune system is weaker than other dogs. So, is Vixen stressing out Carlie and making her immune system weaker? Just wondering.



Yes this is exactly it. How old is Carlie? This usually happens more often in younger dogs than older ones. Usually between 6 and 18 months. I wouldn't worry much about it as it will clear up on its own. When things settle back down in your house she should be fine. ;)

[Buddy'sParents]

I wouldn't worry much about it as it will clear up on its own.

Um, no.

We went through demodex twice and the first time was really bad. The second we did a holistic approach and we've not seen them since. However, treatment is necessary and it can get worse.

Demodex can pop up when the dog is under stress- when their immune system is compromised. Buddy had a compromised immune system to begin with and the mites took a toll on him.

We've talked about this several times on the forum.. and we just had another member that had another case of it... you can search the forums for threads.

In addition, these are helpful:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/demodectic_mange.html

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1589&articleid=729

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/mange1.html#Demodectic


Good luck with Carlie and if you prefer to go the holistic route, I'd talk to Mordy (http://www.betterdogcare.com/).

[*Amy*]

OutlineACDs- She's approximately 2 years old. I do hope that once they get used to each other, Carlie won't have this problem again, but I agree with Buddy'sParents that it's not going to clear up on its own.

Buddy'sParents- Thank you for the links. I'll look at those and do some searching within the forum as well. Do you think she got it because because she's stressed out with the new dog being here? Do you think once she gets used to Vixie being around, it won't be as bad? I really hope so. I'll look at the holistic approach so that if she gets it again after we treat it this time, we'll try getting rid of it that way (especially because I don't really think the antibiotics will keep working if she gets it again in the future.) What is the holistic way, basically?

[showpug]

Antibiotics and a cream for the affected areas won't kill the mites or make them clear up faster. Antibiotics will just prevent and treat secondary infection that can be caused by them. The only things that can clear up and cure demodex are 1. oral Ivomec 2. Miteban (sp) dips or 3.) fixing what is causing the problem with the immune system in the first place / immune boosting and support.

I suggest you watch her very closely to be sure that her spots stay localized. Adult onset demodex (shows up after 2 years) can be much more serious than puppy demodex and can be harder to get a handle on.

What is the cream that you are using?

[Buddy'sParents]

Do you think she got it because because she's stressed out with the new dog being here?

Yes, I do. Have no fear, though. Buddy got his first reaction -if I remember correctly, I could be wrong, though- after we got Banzai. The first go around we just did what the vet said.. but obviously it didn't work because they came back.

Being somewhat disgusted with the vet, I turned to Mordy, who offered support for both of us. We boosted his immune system with supplements and went about attacking the demodex with a holistic approach. It was a lot of work, but well worth it in the end. :)



Do you think once she gets used to Vixie being around, it won't be as bad? I really hope so. I'll look at the holistic approach so that if she gets it again after we treat it this time, we'll try getting rid of it that way (especially because I don't really think the antibiotics will keep working if she gets it again in the future.) What is the holistic way, basically?

Yes, I do think that after she adjusts to Vixie being around, it won't be as bad- but you need to jump on it right away so that it does not come back. Because Mordy created the plan herself, I don't feel comfortable sharing details, if you do a search for me and demodex, you'll find some of what I have shared. I hesitate to share it because it won't be the same for every dog and I don't want a lurker to read it and say, hey, I'll try that and have anything go wrong. PM me if you'd like more information or want to contact Mordy.

[Annamal]

I'm not sure if anyone else mention this all ready, but those spots could be 'hot spots'. My dog had the same thing, and I bought Sulfodene, it's a first aid skin medication for "hot spots associated with scracthing, hair loss and redness."
It can be bought almost anywhere I believe. Pet stores and Walmart are the places I've seen it.

[*Amy*]

Antibiotics and a cream for the affected areas won't kill the mites or make them clear up faster. Antibiotics will just prevent and treat secondary infection that can be caused by them. The only things that can clear up and cure demodex are 1. oral Ivomec 2. Miteban (sp) dips or 3.) fixing what is causing the problem with the immune system in the first place / immune boosting and support.

I suggest you watch her very closely to be sure that her spots stay localized. Adult onset demodex (shows up after 2 years) can be much more serious than puppy demodex and can be harder to get a handle on.

What is the cream that you are using?

Well, if what the vet gave us doesn't work, that'll really irk me. The cream is called Goodwinol. It's active ingredients are: Benzocaine (a pain reliever) and Rotenone (an insecticide/pesticide). Shouldn't the Rotenone kill the mites then? My vet said dips are not necessary at this point because she only has a few small spots. If they get bigger or she gets more of them, then we will do dips. I was wondering if there is a way to boost her immune system considering the problem with her immune system is what caused the problem in the first place. Do you know of something she can take to boost her immune system? Thank you for your input. :)

Yes, I do. Have no fear, though. Buddy got his first reaction -if I remember correctly, I could be wrong, though- after we got Banzai. The first go around we just did what the vet said.. but obviously it didn't work because they came back.

Being somewhat disgusted with the vet, I turned to Mordy, who offered support for both of us. We boosted his immune system with supplements and went about attacking the demodex with a holistic approach. It was a lot of work, but well worth it in the end. :)

Yes, I do think that after she adjusts to Vixie being around, it won't be as bad- but you need to jump on it right away so that it does not come back. Because Mordy created the plan herself, I don't feel comfortable sharing details, if you do a search for me and demodex, you'll find some of what I have shared. I hesitate to share it because it won't be the same for every dog and I don't want a lurker to read it and say, hey, I'll try that and have anything go wrong. PM me if you'd like more information or want to contact Mordy.

Okay, I understand about not wanting to post details on the holistic approach here. I'll probably PM you for some info. Do you remember what your vet gave you to "get rid of the mites?" I wonder if it was similar to what I was given..(I put the info about the cream we were given above). Vets seem to like to just get your money these days and I really hope that isn't what happened here. What do you think about the Rotenone that is in the cream I was given? Thank you for all your help. :)

[Miakoda]

The cream is called Goodwinol.

Goodwinol is commonly used to treat 1-2 outbreak spots.

However, I personally don't call outbreak areas on the body "localized." Most research only considers "localized" to be 2 or less lesions on the head or neck. When on the body and more than 2 lesions, it's generalized.

[Buddy'sParents]

Goodwinol did nothing for us. It was a waste of money. Are you to bathe her? What is the total treatment the vet gave you?

[*Amy*]

Goodwinol is commonly used to treat 1-2 outbreak spots.

However, I personally don't call outbreak areas on the body "localized." Most research only considers "localized" to be 2 or less lesions on the head or neck. When on the body and more than 2 lesions, it's generalized.

Well, that sucks if that's true. The vet saw all the spots and said it's still considered "localized." She doesn't have any spots on her head or neck which I know is where it usually starts so maybe that's why he's saying it's localized (because it's only near the back of her body -on her tail, back, and one leg).

Goodwinol did nothing for us. It was a waste of money. Are you to bathe her? What is the total treatment the vet gave you?

The vet said we could bathe her. The total treatment is to put the Goodwinol ointment on her spots daily and to give her half a pill of the antibiotic daily and to see if it improves. We take her back in a little less than a month to do another skin scrape.

[showpug]

Well, that sucks if that's true. The vet saw all the spots and said it's still considered "localized." She doesn't have any spots on her head or neck which I know is where it usually starts so maybe that's why he's saying it's localized (because it's only near the back of her body -on her tail, back, and one leg).



The vet said we could bathe her. The total treatment is to put the Goodwinol ointment on her spots daily and to give her half a pill of the antibiotic daily and to see if it improves. We take her back in a little less than a month to do another skin scrape.

DO NOT DO THE DIPS!! They are very toxic and can have some very horrible side effects. Yes they are effective, but if you have to go to a more serious treatment then find a vet who will prescribe Ivomec. It's much more effective and although not labeled for demodex treatment in dogs, much less toxic than the Miteban dips.

[Buddy'sParents]

We did Miteban dips the first time around- they are toxic (but so is doing oral Ivermectin) and Buddy was fine.

I would work on boosting her immune system as well as bathing her. The Goodwinol is not enough to get rid of it, in my opinion. *grumbles* Vets drive me nuts.

[Buddy'sParents]

Amy- can you PM me your email addy? I want to share something with you. :)

[OutlineACDs]

Um, no.

We went through demodex twice and the first time was really bad. The second we did a holistic approach and we've not seen them since. However, treatment is necessary and it can get worse.

Demodex can pop up when the dog is under stress- when their immune system is compromised. Buddy had a compromised immune system to begin with and the mites took a toll on him.

We've talked about this several times on the forum.. and we just had another member that had another case of it... you can search the forums for threads.

In addition, these are helpful:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/demodectic_mange.html

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1589&articleid=729

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/mange1.html#Demodectic


Good luck with Carlie and if you prefer to go the holistic route, I'd talk to Mordy (http://www.betterdogcare.com/).

This may be the case for dogs who are pets. My youngest dog had demodex when she was young. I took her in to the vet and he advised me (which is what I have heard elsewhere too) that if I was interested in breeding her in the future I would NOT treat the demodex. The reason being, if it would not clear up on its own or turned from localized to generalized then she should not be bred. If I would have treated the demodectic mange without giving her immune system a chance to fight it off, I would risk passing on a compromised immune system to the puppies. When you treat it with medication you don't know if the dogs immune system can fight it on its own.

[showpug]

This may be the case for dogs who are pets. My youngest dog had demodex when she was young. I took her in to the vet and he advised me (which is what I have heard elsewhere too) that if I was interested in breeding her in the future I would NOT treat the demodex. The reason being, if it would not clear up on its own or turned from localized to generalized then she should not be bred. If I would have treated the demodectic mange without giving her immune system a chance to fight it off, I would risk passing on a compromised immune system to the puppies. When you treat it with medication you don't know if the dogs immune system can fight it on its own.

That is true and what my vet advises as well. My vet actually won't treat it if it's 3 spots or less. If it is an animal to be used for breeding then as you said, it is important to see if the dog can eventually control and cure it on their own without meds. If not, they should not be bred do to their assumed genetically insufficient immune system.

[*Amy*]

DO NOT DO THE DIPS!! They are very toxic and can have some very horrible side effects. Yes they are effective, but if you have to go to a more serious treatment then find a vet who will prescribe Ivomec. It's much more effective and although not labeled for demodex treatment in dogs, much less toxic than the Miteban dips.

Well, I was only going to do the dips if it was extremely necessary. If it comes to that, I will ask my vet about Ivomec.

[*Amy*]

We did Miteban dips the first time around- they are toxic (but so is doing oral Ivermectin) and Buddy was fine.

I would work on boosting her immune system as well as bathing her. The Goodwinol is not enough to get rid of it, in my opinion. *grumbles* Vets drive me nuts.

What do you recommend bathing her with and how do I boost her immune system? I'm going to give the Goodwinol a chance. It might work for Carlie. I'll use the Goodwinol and work on boosting her immune system (if I find out how).

This may be the case for dogs who are pets. My youngest dog had demodex when she was young. I took her in to the vet and he advised me (which is what I have heard elsewhere too) that if I was interested in breeding her in the future I would NOT treat the demodex. The reason being, if it would not clear up on its own or turned from localized to generalized then she should not be bred. If I would have treated the demodectic mange without giving her immune system a chance to fight it off, I would risk passing on a compromised immune system to the puppies. When you treat it with medication you don't know if the dogs immune system can fight it on its own.

My dog is my pet... I would never breed her because she is a mixed breed. I understand waiting to see if a dog's immune system will fight it off in a case of wanting to possibly breed the dog in the future, but in this case it's already obvious that her immune system can't fight off the mites. If her immune system could, it wouldn't have become mange.

[Buddy'sParents]

This may be the case for dogs who are pets. My youngest dog had demodex when she was young. I took her in to the vet and he advised me (which is what I have heard elsewhere too) that if I was interested in breeding her in the future I would NOT treat the demodex. The reason being, if it would not clear up on its own or turned from localized to generalized then she should not be bred. If I would have treated the demodectic mange without giving her immune system a chance to fight it off, I would risk passing on a compromised immune system to the puppies. When you treat it with medication you don't know if the dogs immune system can fight it on its own.

And this instance is for pets- I'd hate for lurkers to read that it will get better on it's own when it can possibly turn into something unmanageable. I understand why a responsible breeder would wait, but this is not the case.

What do you recommend bathing her with and how do I boost her immune system? I'm going to give the Goodwinol a chance. It might work for Carlie. I'll use the Goodwinol and work on boosting her immune system (if I find out how).



The name of the shampoo escapes me at the moment, but I'll do some digging to find it. I think you should use the Goodwinol on top of other things. In the email I sent you, there are some probiotics listed, but since she is on antibiotics, it's going to be kind of tough for a little bit. Do you have her on any supplements?

[*Amy*]

The name of the shampoo escapes me at the moment, but I'll do some digging to find it. I think you should use the Goodwinol on top of other things. In the email I sent you, there are some probiotics listed, but since she is on antibiotics, it's going to be kind of tough for a little bit. Do you have her on any supplements?

No, I currently don't have her on any supplements. Do you think I should put her on Vitamin A, Vitamin C, Zinc and MSM (her food already has Vitamin E in it)? That seems like so much to start giving her. I'm not sure if I want to do that.

I am planning on using the Goodwinol on top of some supplements and the antibiotics she is on (in case she has any infection within the spots). The Goodwinol may not have worked for Buddy because his mange was worse than Carlie's is, so that's why I'm still giving it a chance to work.

[Buddy'sParents]

That seems like so much to start giving her. I'm not sure if I want to do that.

No, I think you need to consult a professional that can tell you what would be appropriate to give her. Buddy's case was extreme and he already had a compromised immune system to begin with, so the measures to help him were above and beyond. He was on colostrum, zinc, msm, vit a, vit c,vit e, astragulus root, milk thistle.. i could go on and on. Many of those may not be necessary for Carlie. :) I really recommend talking to Mordy.

I am planning on using the Goodwinol on top of some supplements and the antibiotics she is on (in case she has any infection within the spots). The Goodwinol may not have worked for Buddy because his mange was worse than Carlie's is, so that's why I'm still giving it a chance to work.

Yes, I realize that, which is why I think you should continue to use it. ;)

Good luck!

[*Amy*]

No, I think you need to consult a professional that can tell you what would be appropriate to give her. Buddy's case was extreme and he already had a compromised immune system to begin with, so the measures to help him were above and beyond. He was on colostrum, zinc, msm, vit a, vit c,vit e, astragulus root, milk thistle.. i could go on and on. Many of those may not be necessary for Carlie. :) I really recommend talking to Mordy.

Yes, I realize that, which is why I think you should continue to use it. ;)

Good luck!

Okay, thanks. :D I think I'll try emailing Mordy.

[Buddy'sParents]

That's great, she's really awesome! She's helped us a lot with all three of our dogs. :D