is elbow & hip dysplasia inherited?

[Debi]

I say it is. but since my Hammie most likely has elbow dysplasia, I emailed the 'former' breeder. ok..my own fault for being someone that didn't know what to all look for, I went on her 'reputation'. she has since stopped breeding...but I thought I'd just mention it to her, because I feel it is an inherited disease. (in case she decides to breed again with the same parents) an email back...she says, 'no..dysplasia can happen at any time. or it could be 5 or 6 generations back, which you could not know'. I'm not going to argue.....that wasn't my intention with the email to begin with. my dog is only 4 yrs. old...and at 'best' is arthritic in his front left leg. he is going to xrays on Wed., but I'd bet the ranch it's dysplasia. anyway...just wondered what was correct. not to pursue it, for my own curiosity. thanks.

[RedyreRottweilers]

You should have your dog exrayed and have the films sent to OFA and his results put into the data base.

You do not need permission or approval from your breeder to do this.

There is definitely a heritability quotient for both Canine HD and ED. In some breeds it is not possible at this point to exclude all dogs who might be Gr 1 DJD in the elbows. Most responsible people would not choose to use a dog who is hip dysplastic.

Have you looked up your dog's family in the OFA data base to see how everyone stacks up? If breeders are OFA clearing dogs, the OFA's data base and website is a very valuable resource when doing pedigree research on various health testing.

http://www.offa.org

[Debi]

thanks Red, I was hoping I'd hear from you. I was just a little stunned to get the curt reply, hey...I thought she'd want to know. all I care about..truly..is my dog at this moment in time. he goes in Wed. AM to be sedated for a series of xrays. then I'll have a consult with the surgeon. fingers crossed..and a little prayer for my baby. I do recognize that most people dwell on hip testing, so my question is....does anyone do further testing for the elbow? or is it something that can just happen in larger breeds at any time? and one thing I know for certain, I fed by the letter...this is not from any overfeeding or any supplements at an early age. which left me to think it was inherited. I'm more than willing to say I may be very ignorant..still (yet, thank goodness for the knowledge I've found here from people like you), so for anyone else that may need to know or wonder..........is there certification for further dysplasia, like elbow. or is it the norm to just test for hip impairments? would this be something a person should ask in detail to a breeder, or can it 'just happen'? the purpose of my post is to educate everyone. I can't help by be blown away to think my 4 yr. old may be lame with arthritis or worse. is this unusual? and I apologize...you replied, yet I'm still blurting out so many questions. I'm still dense this morning. lol

[RedyreRottweilers]

Make sure you talk to your vet about doing the films so they can be sent in to OFA. If he indeed does have ED issues, you want that information in the data base so other breeders can use it to make good breeding decisions later on.

If it were my dog I would have hips and elbows done at the same time and send them in. Make sure you check the box to release all results.

My ED girl who is symptomatic was acutely lame between about 7-10 mos off and on, but then it seemed to resolve. She is now 6, and has definite lameness issues (pretty severe, requires medication) if she exercises too much.

I was told that what happened to her could not be a result of anything I did or did not do by the specialty vets at NCSU when I took her there for a CT scan at 10 mos.

Best of luck with your boy and his films.

[SummerRiot]

I agree with Red, definately get the Hips and Elbows done at the same time. I dont really have an intention on breeding Riot(if a good bitch came along that wanted to use him I wouldn't say no if they were a match) but I got his OFA Hips and Elbows done this passed Summer.

Make sure you specify that it is for OFA though. He'll more then likely have to be sedated for it to get the correct positioning, but if your dog is relaxed enough being on hits back with strangers they wont need sedation. but make sure you say its for OFA. There are forms that you'll need to fill in for them to send it to OFA. Bring any identification with you and your dogs reg'd name, reg'd # and parents reg'd names.

Riot will be going for his eye CERF soon. hes had his Thyroid tested. I just never sent it in to the OFA.

[Debi]

would you recommend that a person with a large breed puppy have them xrayed between 4 and say...10 mos. old to just see if there is a potential problem? if I undersand correctly, it may be more easily treated at an early age. ED problems may not present themselves overtly, but you can sometimes tell by the gait or how the paws are directed when they stand. (paws pointed out would mean elbows pointed in..not a good sign) in your dog, Red, was the ED bilateral? I do understand that if arthritis is severe at this point, he may need meds for life even after surgery. when you say your dog has issues with lameness...is that only after exercise, or general walking? I assume your dog didn't have surgery? ack...I'm just asking too many questions because I'm just upset right now. lol sorry. :) I'm just worried at this young age he won't be able to have a quality life. guess we'll just see what happens after Wed. thanks again.

[HoundedByHounds]

You can use vitamin c some say at the early stages...but in general most contracts have an age stipulation with regards to hips..that being 24 mo. So doing a prelim earlier would be just for your own knowledge and the breeders of a potential issue...

There is correlary information on the OFA site...but generally the LATER you wait to do a prelim the better the chances the results will be accurate at 2 years old. Remember that a prelim is read only by ONE doc and the rating is by THREE...so concensus of one vs three is what you are looking at.

Personally given how much x rays can cost I woudln't bother with a prelime UNLESS the dog is showing issues outwardly...much before 18 months.

[MelissaCato]

Good Question.

If it were my dog I would have hips and elbows done at the same time and send them in. Make sure you check the box to release all results.


Sooo, what would the results tell you ? Do you care about the results? Or do you care about your Reputable Breeding ? Do you care about the "betterment for the breed" or do you care about personal gain ?

If a Bitch is Rated DJD1 would you breed to a dog with DJD1 ? Would you look for a Sire with DJD1 Rated diarthrodial on opposits to your Bitch ? Or would bite your lip and Spay your Bitch ?

If you do Breed a dame and sire DJD1 Rated dogs what is the rarefaction of the Progeny ?

:popcorn:

[Debi]

I have no idea why that little popcorn icon is there, MCato...what you want..an argument today??? maybe you should just let this post be for the information I presented, and not your folly. AND..if it isn't for your folly...what is that silly icon presented for? geez...

[MelissaCato]

I have no idea why that little popcorn icon is there, MCato...what you want..an argument today??? maybe you should just let this post be for the information I presented, and not your folly. AND..if it isn't for your folly...what is that silly icon presented for? geez...

Actually, I think it would be nice to know and relating the OP's question. I'm sure someone has knowledge of this ...... I would like to learn.

[SummerRiot]

If Riots Xrays turned to that he had hip or elbow dysplasia - he would be neutered.

No use in breeding problem dogs into your breed. There are LOTs of other Lovely breed examples in his breed.

As it turns out - Riots OFA ratings were normal/Good.. hes now in the database if you do a search. His CERF will be there shortly (sometime early Summer) when they get done. I will be doing his Thyroid and sending it off to the OFA next time he gets bloodwork done as well.

would you recommend that a person with a large breed puppy have them xrayed between 4 and say...10 mos. old to just see if there is a potential problem?
Honestly, I wouldn't do prelims unless it was suspected at a very young age, even then prelims sent to OFA may not be very useful, if you have a good Vet they can diagnose Dysplasia just as well.

I'm so sorry that your pup is hurting D... Its hard to watch I know. We recently had a 6 month old GSD pup come in for hip Xrays as she was swaying when she walked and it turns out she has mild Dysplasia.

Wishing you the best! :)

[bubbatd]

Debi , I would go the OFA way too . You need to know for your peace of mind .

[Debi]

thanks..many times over..to those that truly helped. :) SummerRiot, Red, all...I appreciate the help and inspiration. if this thread goes into some kind of debate...cause some people love that ....then I'll PM those that have helped me if I have any further questions. you've been wonderful. :)

[MelissaCato]

... so do we all have to stop learning now?

Good Question.

Sooo, what would the results tell you ? Do you care about the results? Or do you care about your Reputable Breeding ? Do you care about the "betterment for the breed" or do you care about personal gain ?

If a Bitch is Rated DJD1 would you breed to a dog with DJD1 ? Would you look for a Sire with DJD1 Rated diarthrodial on opposits to your Bitch ? Or would bite your lip and Spay your Bitch ?

If you do Breed a dame and sire DJD1 Rated dogs what is the rarefaction of the Progeny ?

:rolleyes:

[DanL]

Something interesting I heard- that if you have your dog put under for the xrays, they are relaxed so much that the hips will come out of joint more than if they are awake, and the results can be skewed.

I think that HD is both hereditary and environmental. If you have a dog that is predisposed to HD, and work him hard while he's growing, don't feed him right, he'd be more likely to get HD than the same dog who was allowed to mature in a more protected environment.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Actually, I think it would be nice to know and relating the OP's question. I'm sure someone has knowledge of this ...... I would like to learn.


My apologies to the OP.

No, Melissa Cato, you don't want to learn. You want to argue.

I knew it was only a matter of time before you came back to start more trouble.

This poster has a genuine concern for the welfare of her dog. So take your harrassment of me and my breeding choices and your trolling somewhere else, please.

[RedyreRottweilers]

DanL, I do agree on the anesthesia. I will never film another dog under anesthesia if there is any way to avoid it.

[Debi]

but Red...it is the best option for an xray of my interest...to have them sedated so that they do not move and it is as precise as can be, right? ok...little confession..I'm scared of anesthesia of any sort. so..it is the best way, right?

[RedyreRottweilers]

Debi, in your current situation where you feel there might be a problem, it is probably best. This way they will get good views. The sedation they use for films is light so you likely don't need to be really concerned.

I drive over 2 hours to the vet who does hips and elbows without anesthesia. Good luck finding out what is what with your guy.

I do have an ED+ girl. I use certain supplements in her, that really seem to have helped. If you would like more info about what I'm using on her, you can PM me.

[bubbatd]

Really depends on the dog .....some won't stay still enough for a good reading .

[Zoom]

Cato, go pick a stupid fight somewhere else. This is not the time nor the thread for it.

Debi, I am so sorry the breeder was such a jerk to you and I'm doubly sorry that Hammie is having problems at such a young age. :(

[Debi]

yes...I DO want precise xrays. this is more than me feeling there might be a problem. I know there is. by day 2 on the Deramaxx...I knew he wasn't going to 'feel better'. it has helped his pain, but he isn't going to get better. altho...for the grace of love..he seems to be feeling no intense pain right now. (that would be him not screaming or rolling around in pain..or whining. if THAT doesn't just break your heart, I don't know what does) I'd LOVE to know your supplements. when you have time, I'd REALLY appreciate a PM of what you give your girl. :) and...for a millionth (uh..is that even a word..lol) time...lol........THANKS.

[RedyreRottweilers]

It might be better to just put it here, Debi, in case others are interested.

Ask your vet about a pain reliever called TRAMADOL. Many dogs get excellent relief from it, and it does not carry the risks of serious liver damage or death that Deramaxx does. It is inexpensive. I have not noticed any side effects from this drug either.

Supplements I use include Ester C (1500 mgs per day, you want to work up to this doseage gradually starting with 500 or so), Natural Vitamin E (400IU per day), and PhytoFlex CCM+ from Nature's Farmacy. I also use a good overall vitamin supplement from NF called DogZyme's Ultimate, mainly because I feed a raw diet.

You can find Nature's Farmacy at http://www.naturesfarmacy.com Call them up, they are very nice to speak to on the phone and very helpful.

I believe that the raw grain free diet has also contributed to helping my ED+ girl feel more sound.

[SummerRiot]

As far as sedation goes - its best to get a sedation but anesthesia isn't necesary in most cases.

At work we just give them a general sedation which just makes them dopey - yet fully concious. That way they aren't moving around, or get too nervous during an Xray.

When Riot got his OFA hips and elbows done, he was sedated. It wore off fairly quickly with him. I would have prefered to get them done without anything but he wouldn't hold still enough for that. Plus with the OFA Xrays they have to pull and twist their legs in a certain position to get them perfect. We had to re-do his Elbow Xrays because it wasn't good enough to be sent into the OFA (his leg was slightly off the film).

If you decide to go through the OFA route - ask for a LIGHT sedation - nothing that requires them to be completely out.

Edited: Just to add in to Reds post above - we have a few dogs on Tramadol at work and they are doing better on that then they were on Deramaxx. I'd never want Riot on Deramaxx permanently - it really does go straight through their liver.

[Debi]

great. Deramaxx is probably hurting his liver. and my vet is putting him completely under. not a 'general sedation'. at this point.......I just don't know what to think. so...whatever. with any situation, I suppose it all goes according to what your vet thinks...or does. I'm sorry I asked. not to mean I am trying to offend anyone..........just sorry I asked. like......sorry this even is a consideration...like...life sucks. as to the subject of elbow dysplasia...........forget it. feel good that your breeder did hip studies...and just go with the flow of life. as for OFA...I could care less. send all these results to them.. yeah, big deal. it is a guideline, but that is ALL it is.

[RedyreRottweilers]

One thing to consider, Debi, is IF your dog is affected, when you sent the results to OFA, this is recorded in their data base FOREVER. People planning breedings, etc, in the future will be able to access these records. This is important to breeders. As awful as it is that your guy has issues, one thing that can come of it that is positive is that you can provide this information so that it is available to future breeders.

However your vet has decided to proceed with the radiographic exam of your dog is probably what is best for your dog right now. One reason why people are suggesting to send the info to OFA is so that it can be accessed in the future. You also get the films evaluated by three different radiologist/orthopedic specialists.

The other reason we are telling you about OFA is because films have to be taken and identifed in a specific manner in order to be submitted to OFA.

Wishing you all success, and hoping you get a better report than you are expecting.

[BRTLover]

ED and HD is not always inherited; it can be environmental.

There are several things owners can do to minimize the chances of a dog having HD or ED.

Not feeding puppy food {but rather an all lifestages food} so the growth rate is not too fast

Exercise; impact jumping, running should be limited until puppy is at the bare minimum a year old.

The last time I research this topic
60% environmental
40% inherited

I will try to find the vet link where I found this information for you.

For xrays: the least amount of sedation as possible. The OFA website has this information on it and they like to see muscle elasticity still!

[shadowfacedanes]

One thing to consider, Debi, is IF your dog is affected, when you sent the results to OFA, this is recorded in their data base FOREVER. People planning breedings, etc, in the future will be able to access these records. This is important to breeders. As awful as it is that your guy has issues, one thing that can come of it that is positive is that you can provide this information so that it is available to future breeders.




I really second this. It will help also potential buyers who want to research the lineage and find out if issues exist in those lines.

Sorry your pup is having problems. :(

[Debi]

ED and HD is not always inherited; it can be environmental.

There are several things owners can do to minimize the chances of a dog having HD or ED.

Not feeding puppy food {but rather an all lifestages food} so the growth rate is not too fast

Exercise; impact jumping, running should be limited until puppy is at the bare minimum a year old.

The last time I research this topic
60% environmental
40% inherited

I will try to find the vet link where I found this information for you.

For xrays: the least amount of sedation as possible. The OFA website has this information on it and they like to see muscle elasticity still!


did you not read where I specifically said I did NOT feed incorrectly? as to exercise...again, I didn't do what is implied. xrays......helloooooo..........my vet is in charge of the sedation, and I am at his mercy on this. so....when you post information, post something new.

[SummerRiot]

If your really worried about his liver values you can always run a Wellness Plus blood panel on him.

I ran that on Riot before I got his OFA stuff done and it shows all of the internal organ values and how they are doing. Riots ALT levels were slighty low (not meaning anything.. usually they are high if there was a problem -part of the liver values).

How long has Hammie been on Deramaxx for?

[RedyreRottweilers]

ED and HD is not always inherited; it can be environmental.

There are several things owners can do to minimize the chances of a dog having HD or ED.

Not feeding puppy food {but rather an all lifestages food} so the growth rate is not too fast

Exercise; impact jumping, running should be limited until puppy is at the bare minimum a year old.

The last time I research this topic
60% environmental
40% inherited

I will try to find the vet link where I found this information for you.

For xrays: the least amount of sedation as possible. The OFA website has this information on it and they like to see muscle elasticity still!



I challenge you to find me ANY EVIDENCE that shows that Canine Hip and Elbow Dysplasia can EVER OCCUR without a genetic predisposition.

Canine Hip and Elbow Dysplasia is ABSOLUTELY inherited genetically.

[bubbatd]

I may have to agree ....I've only had 2 offsprings with HD..... ( of many years of breeding ) ..... I never bred to anyone with " Fair " and always checked at least 2 generations of OFA........it may not show up for years , and when I started my line there was no OFA .

[shadowfacedanes]

did you not read where I specifically said I did NOT feed incorrectly? as to exercise...again, I didn't do what is implied. xrays......helloooooo..........my vet is in charge of the sedation, and I am at his mercy on this. so....when you post information, post something new.

Debi, I think this was general information, not specifically aimed at YOU per se...just at the topic of the thread. The poster is new here. I don't think there was any malice intended.

[Saintgirl]

HD and Ed are a genetic issue, BUT environmental factors can exasperate the underlying problem, or so my own research on the disease has lead me to believe.

http://www.offa.org/hipgeninfo.html

Often a dog will be asymptomatic thus leading the owner to believe that no dysplasia occurs, when in fact it has been there all along. Extra weight and strain due to activity on the joint can cause an increase on the degeneration of the already abnormal joint leading to symptomatic dysplasia. Diet that does not promote a slow steady growth does not cause dysplasia, it does not cause abnormal joint growth, however it can increase strain on a join that is already compromised. The same with excessive exercise, it does not deform a joint, it only adds more strain that can cause symptomatic dysplasia in an asymptomatic dog.

My boy has ED. He was symptomatic at a year of age due to an injury he sustained. This is when we discovered his dysplasia, and immediatley we started thinking of the worse case scenerios. My immediate concern was for the quality of life that he was going to have. He is now 4 and a half and is asymptomatic. We feed him a good solid diet, keep his weight in check, and keep him physically in shape. His dysplasia is not severe, so it is easy for us to maintain a healthy and painfree lifestyle for him. Surgery was able to be avoided for us. When he is older I am sure that we will have new obstacles to deal with as the arthritis becomes more of an issue. If he hadn't have hurt himself when he was younger we still may have been unaware of the problem. We do use a supplement that we feel works well in his lifestyle, even though there is no hard evidence that they work, we feel good about using it. So Debi, even if your dog is diagnosed with dysplasia there are lots of options and many ways for your pup to live a life that does not have to compromise his quality of life.

[bubbatd]

I will say that in one case the owner in my mind went to adult food too early . The other case the dog was stressed early on with too aggressive Frisbee play . I have always tried to preach that let pups go at the limits natural to them until they have their bone growth . Let's face it ... they want to please us !!!

[fillyone]

It is my understanding that HD and ED point more to the structure of the joints and then the resulting Degenerative Joint Disease.

I'm not sure I've seen an x-ray of severe DJD that didn't also include some malformation of the joint.

That all said, Dante is Grade I DJD in one elbow but completly symptom free at almost 4 years old. I have not changed anything about what he does in the 2 years since I got his OFA results.

My next pup will have prelims done for both hips and elbows, probably around a year old.

[Saintgirl]

I do not beleive that feeding adult food too quickly can cause HD. In fact most Saint people I know do not ever feed puppy food to their dogs, always a high quality dog food. In fact, most puppy foods (unless specially formulated) can encourage faster growth in large and giant breed dogs only adding to the strain on an already unsound joint causing symptoms of the problem. I know many members of Chaz do not feed puppy food to their growing pups either. Grammy, I beleive in your case the HD or ED was already an existing condition, however excessive exercise and perhaps diet exasperated the problem.

[BRTLover]

did you not read where I specifically said I did NOT feed incorrectly? as to exercise...again, I didn't do what is implied. xrays......helloooooo..........my vet is in charge of the sedation, and I am at his mercy on this. so....when you post information, post something new.

Sorry will never again take my time to respond to any of your posts since your response is so rude!
There were some posts stating that HD and ED is only genetic and that is not true and therefore I gave the knowledge I had.

Sorry again!

[Dekka]

Focusing as I am on genetics and school..and dogs being one of my favorite topics. All the research I have read and deleved into says that ABSOLUTELY these things are genetically linked. Now that there is more info on the genes involved in heriditary issues, more will be learned. But to date all the research points to there always being a genetic link with HD or ED

BRT lover..if you have some info on the contrary I would be really interested to see it, I love research and learning :D Also don't be offended if people say stuff that seems rude on the board. Sometimes people are in a hurry and don't realize how the posts sounds. That is the issue with these sorts of things, there is no tone of voice to help us understand how things were meant. I know I have done that myself.

[RedyreRottweilers]

SaintGirl, exactly. Environmental factors can cause HD or ED to be expressed. However, it cannot be clinically expressed if there was not an underlying genetic predisposition.

Part of the problem with the apparent inability to eradicate or strongly minimize CHD in dogs has to do with 2 things:

1) dogs who present as radiographically normal who are not genetically normal, and will produce dysplastic offspring, and

2) the failure to consistently have all puppies in litters screened and results released whether normal or abnormal.

I, along with others I greatly respect, feel that BREADTH in a pedigree (siblings of breeding parters, siblings of parents, and siblings of grand parents) are MOST important in managing to select dogs for breeding who are most likely to have/produce normal hips (and elbows). Generations straight back of normal dogs is also important, but it is the breadth of the normal dogs in the pedigree that carries the most weight.

This is one reason why the OFA's website is such a useful and wonderful tool for today's breeders. It is also a reason why breeders should try their very best to get ALL puppies in a litter screened, and have the courage and love for their breed to release ALL the results.

JMO as always.