Attention Training... the Darn Dog Can't CATCH!

[SizzleDog]

So I've come upon a stumbling block with Ronin.

I'm trying to do some Attention work with him, and the way I trained Ilsa just isn't working with him... and I'm not sure what to do. With Ilsa, to teach her attention I'd spit treats at her - so she'd look up at my face. It worked very well - but she can catch.

Ronin... well, um... he can't catch. He watches the treat hit his nose and then goes crazy trying to find it on the ground, breaking his sit (and his attention) in the process. I tried using the clicker... and he either focused on my hand or wouldn't take the treat because he refused to take his eyes off my face.

I'm at a loss here... he's REEEALLLLY trying hard and I can tell he's loving the CU stuff I'm doing with him, but the darn dog can't catch and it's confusing both of us when it comes to attention.

And yes, I've tried teaching him how to catch. His breeder has tried teaching him to catch. His professional handler tried to teach him how to catch. He. Can't. Catch.


Helllllpppppppp!

[DanL]

Daisy and Gunnar begin a 4 week attention class on Saturday. Apparently the instructor does not think they have enough attention to start Rally.

I'll let you know how they teach it, maybe it'll help you in some way. Hopefully it involves more than throwing the dog into a strange new environment with no time to get comfortable with the sights and smells, having him heel for 20' and because he's not looking me in the eye the entire time because of the distraction of the new place, decide he needs work on attention. Yes I have a little chip on my shoulder about this! :)

[Zoom]

Dan, you're going to be making the trainer think he's the coolest thing in the world, because once Gunnar gets settled, he's going to snap on and look like an old hand at this.

Sizzle: Sawyer can't catch worth a thing if I'm spitting treats at him, but if I give one practice swing of the hand, tell him "catch" and then toss it to him, then he can get it. But I have had zero luck with him catching when treats are spat at him.

[SizzleDog]

Uhhhh... yeah Zoom, we've all tried that. He's impossible. ;)

[DanL]

That's what I'm hoping Zoom. Daisy will do well too. She's got more to learn than he does but she will certainly watch you like a hawk if you have a treat!

[noludoru]

I may be missing this from your post and you've already done it, but what about holding a treat in your mouth or whatever and getting him to focus on it and slipping one into his mouth while he's looking?

or using another reinforcer? Not treats?

[Sweet72947]

Haha Benji does the same. Daisy can catch real well, but Benji just lets the treat bounce off his nose. However, he CAN catch a toy in his mouth. Hmm...lol

[corgipower]

LOLZ!! I remember teaching ares to catch, and it made him stressed cuz he couldn't figure it out, and when the food would bounce off his face, he would get PO'd.

Try using bigger treats, so he sees them better, and try holding them closer and dropping them from closer to his mouth.

Also, another thing that can work for teaching them to look at you instead of at your hand is to hold a treat in each hand, and hold your hands out to the sides ~ arms parallel to the ground ~ and when he looks at you, then click and treat. Carry the treats in various places ~ right hand, left hand, a pouch, in your mouth, have a few everywhere, so he doesn't know where the next treat will come from, and it's only when he looks at your face that he gets one.

And if a treat falls to the ground, don't ever let him get it.

[SizzleDog]

getting him to focus on it and slipping one into his mouth while he's looking?

I wish I could Zoom... I've tried it, he's extremely attentive and the *slightest* movement of the hand will make him look. He's always been hand sensitive, ever since I got him. As far as an alternate reinforcer, treats keep him the calmest. He goes nuts at the sound of my voice, he'll start bouncing. Since we're working on mostly calming him down (anyone who has met him knows he's got a firecracker up his a$$) so he can focus without boucing off the walls.

Try using bigger treats, so he sees them better, and try holding them closer and dropping them from closer to his mouth.

Heh heh heh... of corgipower.... if you only knew how long we tried that. This dog cannot catch. If I throw him an HUGE cookie, he can't catch. If I throw him a large cookie, veerrrry slowly, from 6 inches away.. he can't catch. He's bizarre.

[corgipower]

What if you just drop it from an inch away?

Yea, I'm laughing at your dog. :p

[SizzleDog]

Ya know.... you're not going to believe me, but YES. We've tried that. He flips his head up like a dolphin and the treat goes flying. The darn dog cannot catch.

[Agilitylabbie]

Have you tried teaching a 'watch me' command to get him to focus on you? You start by showing him a treat in your hand & then bringing the treat up between your eyes. When he makes eye contact, click & treat. Yes, he'll be looking at the treat at first, but eventually you can fade out the food & just use the watch me command to get him to look at you. I've found it very helpful, as Echo also is totally useless at catching things :rolleyes:

[corgipower]

I just have never had a dog that couldn't learn to catch LOLOL. I think he's enjoying the game, he's simply come up with a different way of playing it. ;)

[SizzleDog]

Corgipower I think that's really what it is... he thinks it's FUN to miss the treat! He'd trather watch it fly then actually eat it!

Agilitylabbie - he's actually got a decent watch me command... he's very attentive... when I ask him to be. I'm looking for a default behavior of watching me though. His default used to be a show stance and watching me... and I've switched that default response to a sit and watch me. Now, I want attention on the move as well.

This dog is a blast to train, probably because he's so willing to learn and goofy... and as long as you keep it 100 positive, he never gets frustrated or shuts down. If I could only get his reactiveness worked out, he'd be a great competition dog with just a little work. He wants to do everything right the first time, he does everythign with a gusto... he just doesn't understand yet that I'd like some attention while heeling as well!

[RD]

Can you still reinforce a long period of attention by dropping a treat out of your mouth anyway, and releasing him from a "watch me" command? Buddy wasnt ever able to catch treats, but he realized that if he looked at my face long enough, I'd spit a treat on the floor for him. When I spit out the treat, the behavior was over.

[SizzleDog]

That might actually work Grace - I'll have to try that today!

[mctraill]

[QUOTE=SizzleDog;942183With Ilsa, to teach her attention I'd spit treats at her - so she'd look up at my face. It worked very well - but she can catch.

[/QUOTE]

Forgive me asking this, I am a first time dog owner and learning all the time. Do you mean you actually put the treat in your own mouth and spit it at your dog, what kind of treat do you use?

[RD]

Mctraill, I don't know what Sizzle uses but I use bits of real meat for that kind of training. Some people use hot dogs, I can't stand the taste of them so I boil chunks of beef or chicken and just hold them in my cheek during attention training.

Some dogs (not mine) like veggies and such as treats, too.

[RedHotDobe]

Ronin sounds a lot like Rumor. She'd stand still, watch the treat coming at her, make a lame attempt at a catch, the treat would go flying and she'd bounce off to claim her prize. I finally started blocking her from getting any of the treats that hit the ground. Wasn't very easy to do, but she at least catches now!

Forgive me asking this, I am a first time dog owner and learning all the time. Do you mean you actually put the treat in your own mouth and spit it at your dog, what kind of treat do you use?
I use hot dog, boiled/grilled chicken, or some cheese. Or some of the really disgusting Bil-Jac liver or Merrick lamb lung treats that she likes. I hope she appreciates it. They don't taste particularly appetizing.

[doberkim]

You don't need to spit - in fact, when training attention I do not spit, because it forces the dog to move his head to catch (and in a dog like rah, it encourages him to stay out further away). The fact that you move your hand is just another distraction the dog needs to learn to deal with - if you are using pure positive to train him, then click him and end the behavior, it won't matter if he moves once he gets the cookie.

are you doing this in heel position or with him in front of you? even if you spit, the dog is moving his head and his eyes are looking at the food, so i personally dont see the difference. i spit and use my fingers with rah, depending on the situation and what i need /want from him. but in training attention, i always use my fingers to bring the treat from my mouth down to him, because i am then able to feed him with his head in the exact position that i want it to stay in. One of the first things I do once the dogs understand that I want eye contact, is to add in the distraction of moving my arms all over the place and expecting their eyes to stay on me!

Besides, with spitting there is user error as well - something has to be said for how well you spit :)

[corgipower]

I finally started blocking her from getting any of the treats that hit the ground. Wasn't very easy to do, but she at least catches now!

Agreed

[lizzybeth727]

OP, I just read through the whole thread, and judging by how many times you've said "He. Can't. Catch.," I'm thinking that you just need a new method of treat delivery for this behavior.

My dog can't catch anything, we've worked on it for about 3 years now. But her tracking is not good, I can hold a treat in front of her nose and slowly move it to the side, and her eyes have trouble following it.

I've taught eye contact to hundreds of dogs, and I must say, I've NEVER even HEARD of spitting treats to your dog. Personally, I think it sounds gross. What do you do if you need his attention quickly and don't have time to put a treat in your mouth? What I've always done is just click when he looks at your eye, and then hand him a treat. He's still paying attention to you because he's waiting for the treat, and since you clicked when his eyes were on your eyes, you don't have to literally deliver the treat at the same time. That's the main idea in clicker training, that you can have very precise timing even if your treat delivery is slow.

And if he's paying too much attention to your hand, that means that you shouldn't be keeping treats in your hands. Put the treat on a table next to you, in your pocket, in a treat bag, etc., but holding it in your hand will teach him to only pay attention to you when he knows he's going to get a treat for it.