I'm Going to Breed Roxy Mae [Archive]

showpug

06-22-2005, 07:14 PM

Okay...so I am really not trying to be a pest, but I just want to put my opinion in on breeding and you can take it or leave it! I am a firm believer that dogs should only be bred if #1 they are a good representation of their breed in both temperment and confirmation and #2 if they pass all their health screens i.e. hip certification, eye certification, patellas, elbows...the list goes on. AND #3 if by breeding this dog, the future of the breed is improved. I don't think it is up to us as biased owners to decide if our dog is a good representation of their breed. This needs to be done under a judge in the show ring or by a long term ethical show breeder, or by someone who knows the breed better than ourseleves. The whole point behind conformation dog showing is to evaluate dogs for breeding. I take breeding VERY seriously and if I remember correctly, the dog you want to breed is a chihuahua. These are so overbred right now it's scary. Not to mention that they usually have whelping difficulties and they don't always make great mothers. I saw quite a few in for c-sections during my vet clinic days and I even saw one die from having pups. I know you love your dogs, and I don't know the whole story behind you, your dog, or why you want to breed. I just want you to make a responsible and educated decision. There is a lot more that goes in to deciding if a dog should be bred that having homes for the puppies and a vet exam. Plus, no ***** should be bred until at least 2 years....this is kind of early for these people to agree to take puppies. Good luck

Ash47

06-22-2005, 07:16 PM

Well I never said this was in the near future and she has had her pre-screen by my boss, a vet. I will get her further genetic testing in the future, but as of right now, she will be bred sometime way later. She is of show quality. She has been confirmed as being show quality, etc. But I have a question, how come no one asked Love4pits these questions?? Everyone just told her how great it was. Nothing at all against L4P, but no one seems too concerned when she has puppies.

EliNHunter

06-22-2005, 07:23 PM

What traits will you be breeding for?

showpug

06-22-2005, 07:23 PM

Most breeders will not sell a "show quality" dog to just anyone. Most go out on a show contract stating that you have to show her to her championship and absolutley no breeding until then. If a "show quality" dog goes to a pet home then they go on spay/neuter contract. If she came from a show breeder then they would want a say in who she is bred to etc. Just make sure she is REALLY show quality and breeding quality. There are a lot of champion show dogs that people decide not to breed for a lot of different reasons. I would suggest you buy the book "Breeding a Litter" and read it front to cover. It will help you with this decision. :)

Invisible

06-22-2005, 07:23 PM

Love4Pits has been breeding for a while, and I think eveyone already knows she does alll the testing and does it for the good of breeds and all those other questions. She has probably already answered them before.

Anyways I hope you do all the tests and your pups turn out good.

Gustav

06-22-2005, 07:25 PM

I think we may have been a bit hasty to put Pro47 down here guys! I think everyone deserves a chance to explain themselves!

Invisible

06-22-2005, 07:29 PM

I think we may have been a bit hasty to put Pro47 down here guys! I think everyone deserves a chance to explain themselves!

I agree with Gustave, as long as she does the health tests and does everything right, and has homes I don't understand what wrongs with her breeding her dog.

EliNHunter

06-22-2005, 07:36 PM

I've edited my original post when I jumped. It's just I'm so into rescue now. But if you are responsible and bettering the breed, I'm all for it.

beagle_lovergirl

06-22-2005, 07:36 PM

Soon enough, this "disscussion" will explode 5.....4......3......2.....1......BOOM! I think everyone means well, why should we be fighting. Pro47 said that she WILL do all the health tests, that she IS willing to pay for anything, that she KNOWS there is a risk of losing Roxy Mae, that she WILL ONLY breed in the distant future,that she WILL care for the pups AND look for a reputable stud, that she DID ask a more knowledgeable person if Roxy Mae is a good reprensatation of the breed and that she CAN improve the breed. I'm not taking any sides (and I definetly dont want anyone angry or thinking I was to harsh) but I think those are good reasons why she might want to breed Roxy Mae. And Showpug and everyone else is trying to show that he (or she) cares about dogs and their future and only wants whats best for them. As simple as that.

beagle_lovergirl

06-22-2005, 07:37 PM

Oh okay forget what I said, everuone else beat me too it :) I'm just glad this is solved.

Invisible

06-22-2005, 07:39 PM

There is one thing I want from Pro47 when she breeds Roxy and she has the pups........Pictures!!! :p

Ash47

06-22-2005, 07:40 PM

Thank you very much Gustav and Invisible! At least you guys aren't jumping down my throat! Well, Love4Pits had to start somewhere since she has been breeding for a long time. And her pups turn out fine! So will mine. I thought I could come here for support, but I don't know now. I am being responsible and she isn't being bred anytime soon. I know what I am doing and I work for a vet and have for a long time. I have him to continually check Roxy Mae out. She is going to get health tested further by OFA. Anyway, I don't have to explain myself. I just thought you guys would know by now that I am an animal lover, not someone who just wants to make money off of them. :( Oh well...

showpug

06-22-2005, 07:41 PM

I was never arguing...I did not know questions were arguing. :confused: I will leave the subject alone now. I am not trying to be nasty, I just take breeding VERY seriously and feel that it should be done by VERY experienced breeders. I know everyone has to start somewhere, but it should be done under a VERY experienced mentor in that case.

EliNHunter

06-22-2005, 07:42 PM

It is known the Chi breed needs improved. Just as the poor Irish Setter, Golden Retriever, dalmation, etc. etc. (I could go on forever) has been bastardized by movies and popularity. Ever since the Taco Bell dog the Chi has gone downhill (maybe even before? Dunno.) So, any betterment to the breed would be a good thing...

gaddylovesdogs

06-22-2005, 07:43 PM

I'm not putting you down, Pro, just want(ed) to know why you're planning on breeding your dog...

Invisible

06-22-2005, 07:43 PM

Wasn't RoxyMay having neck problems?
Did you find out what that was?

EliNHunter

06-22-2005, 07:44 PM

Ash47

06-22-2005, 07:44 PM

Oh no no no Invisible. I was just saying that I had found out that Chi's have a tendency to have neck problems. Not that mine had them, just that they are common. :)

Invisible

06-22-2005, 07:45 PM

Oh no no no Invisible. I was just saying that I had found out that Chi's have a tendency to have neck problems. Not that mine had them, just that they are common. :)

Ohhh....I see! Thats great, not that chi's have that problem, but that yours didn't :D
Don't forget the pictures either!! ;)

Ash47

06-22-2005, 11:06 PM

I know what I am doing. Enough said... I am breeding for temperament and size mainly. She is a good sized Chi weighing right at 6lbs. and foot to shoulder she is around 5 and 1/2 or 6 inches tall. Not too small, not too big. Another thing I am going to get checked out before I allow this to happen... I will enroll her in Puppy School and get the instructor to evaluate her temperament.

By the way, apologies accepted!

bubbatd

06-22-2005, 11:33 PM

Pro... as a past reputable breeder, I can understand your wishes.... you've got at least two years ahead of you before you actually are ready to breed. All the tests etc and finding the right sire. This will be your hardest find. You wouldn't believe the calls I got from people wanting to bred to my males ! Unless it's great breeding, it's not worth the thousand dollars you will be putting out. Please get the book " How to raise a Puppy You can live with " It will help you with the decission if you are serious .

juliefurry

06-22-2005, 11:47 PM

Hey Pro! Good for you! If you really want to breed and you're doing it for the right reasons than I applaud you. Have you thought about the risks though I mean LOTS of things can go wrong with the breeding and delivery of puppies and your doggie (who looks VERY cute and VERY sweet) could end up not being the same as she once was or even worse. I think that would be one of my main concerns if I ever bred one of my females (which I know I won't because I don't know the first thing about puppy raising).

bubbatd

06-23-2005, 12:16 AM

Good for you, Julie, Puppies are alot of money, work and time ! To do it right it's at least 1 hours a day per pup...8 pups and 8 wks... plus the socializing . Lots of newpapers, bedding washing etc etc etc. Not to mention proper paper work etc. I loved what I did as my pups went to wonderful homes and I still hear from the few that are living on. I wish I could have continued my line. It was 30 years of wonderful memories and great connections. I'm now into rescue which is very rewarding and not as costly !!

Love4Pits

06-23-2005, 01:39 AM

I think we may have been a bit hasty to put Pro47 down here guys! I think everyone deserves a chance to explain themselves!
I agree I feel she said everything I wanted to hear she will have Roxy health tested and she said the male will be too. And that will only breed in the distant future. I have no problem with you Pro you sound like you have your priorities straight as far as i can tell. Just make sure she is tested extensively to make sure not even a tiny problem if wrong and all will be cool with me ;) .

Saje

06-23-2005, 01:42 AM

Hey Pro, my first thought when I saw your thread was that you know what you are doing. I know you work for a vet and care about dogs a lot. Maybe not everyone knows that.

I hope you'll keep us up-to-date on what's happening. Chi pups must so adorable. I've never seen any.

Innocent question :) - Is it more dangerous to breed Chi's due to their size? I know very little about different breeds...

And about L4P. She had told us all about what she does before she breeds long before this last litter. Same about how she feeds... Her daily life. She's quite chatty :D (I love you Scar!!) so I guess there wasn't much else to say... I don't remember you mentioning breeding so maybe that's why people where twitchy lol - my friend is twitchy right now. It's a good word.

Ash47

06-23-2005, 09:14 PM

Thanks everyone. And I understand everyone's "hastiness." :o Yes, it is very dangerous to breed Chihuahuas. You have to be very educated to know what you are doing. I have extensively researched the breed and have many more things to learn. I know things can and do go wrong. I saw a very small dog have to have a C-section the other day and that puppy died because the mother wouldn't take to it. Roxy is small right now, but she will grow a little more. She hasn't even had her first estrus yet, so there is no way in heck I would breed her soon. :eek:

I know puppies cost a lot of money, but I will have my boss supervising my every move, if something is to go wrong. Plus, I know a lady that shows Papillions and breeds them. Her Pap's are beautiful and wonderful representatives of their breed; I am going to contact her when the time is right for all of this. Thanks L4P for your support, that means a lot to me.

PS. As of right now if I do proceed with my plans, my grandparents'(not the ones who gave up Spud), my aunt, and me and my fiance are keeping a puppy. Plus, if the sire's parents so desire, they will get pick of the litter. So more than likely I am not going to be "selling" any puppies. And all of these people know how picky and funny I am about this kind of stuff. If they ever don't want it, they know where to send it!! ;)

Invisible

06-23-2005, 09:27 PM

I'm curious: I heard there where two types of heads for chihuahua's. What type is RoxyMae?

Love4Pits

06-23-2005, 09:33 PM

I think the only two types are long haired or short haired and she's obviousely short haired and there are pocket Chi's but they are extremly unhealthy and are not show worthy so im assuming Roxy is not that either. Just taking a guess

Invisible

06-23-2005, 09:34 PM

I meant appledome and deer head I think?

Ash47

06-24-2005, 12:01 AM

Roxy Mae is definetely not pocket Chi! She is a healthy 6 pounds. And yes, she is a shorthair. I prefer them. She is a deerhead. She still has the rounded off forehead, but her snout is a little longer. Her eyes are full, but do not "poke" out of her head and her ears are beginning to stand. When not alert, they sort of poke out to the side or lie down, but when alert, they stand tall and proud. Her walk is just beautiful. She sort of just floats quickly across the ground beneath her.

Invisible

06-24-2005, 02:20 AM

I thought you didn't want a deerhead one? Am I wrong ?

paramount

06-24-2005, 02:32 AM

You are correct Invisible, a 'deer head' shape does not follow the breed standard.

Invisible

06-24-2005, 04:47 AM

why don't 'deer head' shapes go with the standard? I mean does it mean there is someting wrong with the dogs? Like health issues or somthing?

mrose_s

06-24-2005, 05:11 AM

I think it sounds great, you sound very responsible. What breed is roxy mae?
I just want to say something, Showpug mentioned that a dog should be bred if they are a good representation of their breed, I think cross breds are fine also, we had a bully/boxer and we crossed her with a good looking mixed male, beautiful pups and they all found good homes, some people prefer mixes remeber because they are cheaper and have traits that you can't get in pure bred dogs,

for example... labradoodles, the first ones were bred as service dogs that didnt irritate peopels allergies.

there is my two cents

casablanca1

06-24-2005, 09:41 AM

I just want to say something, Showpug mentioned that a dog should be bred if they are a good representation of their breed, I think cross breds are fine also, we had a bully/boxer and we crossed her with a good looking mixed male

Is it crossing to breed two mixes? I mean, if the mother's a bulldog/boxer and the father's a whatever, that's at least 4 breeds. Not that I don't like mutts; my last two dogs have been mutts and perfect in every way. Just questioning the effectiveness of breeding two different mixes if you're trying for a standard of physical beauty. For temperment, now, that makes sense.

Doberluv

06-24-2005, 09:57 AM

Doberluv

06-24-2005, 10:01 AM

Oh, and a Chihuahua should have a well rounded, apple head. All this other terminology is just some back yard breeder dishing out a line of bull. There's a standard, as with any breed, and that's what the dog should meet.

http://www.ahkennel.net/standard.htm

showpug

06-24-2005, 10:03 AM

Have to second what Doberluv said...I have had mixes myself, but the idea of breeding a mix on purpose is very irresponsible in my opinion. I can understand the allergy concept as far as service dogs, but I am sure purebred poodles could have done the service work without being mixed with something else. I just come from a different frame of mind I guess. I believe breed the best only to the best and the rest is history. If more people were MORE CAREFUL we would not have hundreds of dying dogs each day. Not everyone needs to or should breed their dog :mad:

Ash47

06-24-2005, 11:32 AM

Renee750il

06-24-2005, 12:16 PM

Some of the better Fila breeders actually find that two 'perfect' examples don't give the best pups. Often, at least with Filas, you get a much better litter of pups if you take two dogs who may have some extreme characteristics on opposite ends of the scale to achieve balanced pups. You may get one or two that have more of one parent's characteristics than the other, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, as different owners are often looking for an emphasis on a particular breed characteristic.

I would think, if Roxy Mae's snoot is a little long, you can look at sires who might have snouts that are a little on the short side, assuming there aren't any health issues that follow the shorter snouted Chihuahuas.

I think you've got a good plan mapped out, Pro, and working right there with a vet certainly is a plus! Grammy (Bubbatd) and Pits are great resources, too. Both have so much experience with breeding ethically and successfully. I know I'm going to be depending on them a great deal with it's time for Shiva and Kharma to have a litter - although I'm dreading it! Charley's choice. If it were my call, I would consider a litter out of Kharma, but not Shiva, as Kharma is a classic working Fila and is a beautiful example of a Fila from, among others, the Jaguara line. I love Shiva, and she's a beautiful creature, but the show line on her father's side has diluted her temperament and her body type isn't as correct as Kharma's. But Charley prefers Shiva.

paramount

06-24-2005, 12:21 PM

Roxy Mae is definetely not pocket Chi! She is a healthy 6 pounds. And yes, she is a shorthair. I prefer them. She is a deerhead. She still has the rounded off forehead, but her snout is a little longer.

Roxy does have an appledome. Her snout is just a little long

I think the only reason you're catching further flack on the standard issue is that you're confusing people with different statements. It sounds like you are set on breeding your dog and are willing to take the financial and personal risks of breeding, so good luck.

showpug

06-24-2005, 12:47 PM

No dog is perfect, not even top show dogs. What you look for when you breed is what Renee said...when your dog is weak in an area you find a stud that is strong in that area and hope for balance in the puppies. We can not assume our dogs are perfect. In fact, it's better to fully acknowledge where they are weak so we can properly seek out the appropriate stud. To me, breeding dogs is a fine art. All breeders strive for perfection, but few top breeders ever achieve it. Someday I will breed a litter, but only with dogs that I have shown to their championship in conformation...and that is just the beginning. There will be a whole array of other factors that will help me in my final decision to breed or not to breed.

bubbatd

06-24-2005, 12:55 PM

Since Roxy's only 9 months old, she's got a few months to go before she reaches maturity . Then you can decide if she's worthy of breeding...You wouldn't want to breed her until she's about 2 , so you have time to talk to other Chi breeders for their advise.

Love4Pits

06-24-2005, 12:58 PM

I think the only reason you're catching further flack on the standard issue is that you're confusing people with different statements. It sounds like you are set on breeding your dog and are willing to take the financial and personal risks of breeding, so good luck.
You obviousely do not know Pro too well I am a breeder myself and i very responsible professional breeder and everything she has said i have found fine.She does know what she's doing and I doubt she would take those risks she loves her dogs far to much! i know this just from knowing her from the forums. Anyways just saying what I know

casablanca1

06-24-2005, 01:54 PM

It doesn't make ANY sense to breed mixed breeds or purebreds that don't exemplify the standard of the breed or meet genetic health and other tests. There are plenty of mixed breeds already stacked up in shelters who are being killed for a lack of a family to love and care for them. It's deplorable to purposely breed mixed breed dogs.

In general I agree, but I think that the show world has colored the conversation. Even non-doggy people now believe it's wrong to breed mutts and the idea that only show-worthy purebreds should be mated is catching on. But the breed clubs that do so much rescue work operate under a self-serving assumption that the AKC standards are worthy, and I disagree. Some breed issues - the disfiguring faces of English Bulldogs and the impossible coats of American Cockers being obvious examples - make me wonder if the show world is even sane. They're producing pet puppies by the millions every year, along with their show puppies, and the same standards that they're breeding for are in many cases making the dogs harder to care for and own. Don't they have any responsibility to consider that issue? More to the point, doesn't their registry? The AKC spent years popularizing the ownership of purebred dogs, selling the idea of what an advantage it would be to know exactly what you were getting with a puppy, and now they claim they're just a registry, no blood on their hands?

Renee750il

06-24-2005, 02:02 PM

One of the reasons some of us don't want our breeds affiliated with the AKC!

paramount

06-24-2005, 02:28 PM

The argument for a breed standard is not simply for aesthetics. It is to preseve and better the breed as a whole. I agree that the show world is exaggerating problems in some breeds (sloping back in GSDs, wrinkled faces in bulldogs, etc.), however that is an internal issue within the breed. Those involved with the breed need to evaluate their standards and what people are breeding towards.

Nonetheless, look at some of the arguments for breeding a crossbreed instead of a purebred (These are ones I have personally heard).

-I wanted another dog like X.
-I think dog X is cute and dog Y is cute, therefore puppy Z will be the best mix.
-There is enough space for registered and unregistered dogs.
-Mixed breeds are more desirable around here.
-Purebreds are not as healthy.

Doberluv

06-24-2005, 02:30 PM

Everyone thinks they know it all. I don't claim to, but I do know what I am getting myself into and I would not breed Roxy if she weren't a PERFECT example of her breed.

I'm curious: I heard there where two types of heads for chihuahua's. What type is RoxyMae?

I was responding to that statement about two types of heads. There is one description of one head in the standard.

No dog is perfect, not even top show dogs.

Exactly. And if two dogs are bred, but can't improve on the last generation, which should be close to the cream of the crop, then they shouldn't be bred. I don't know your dog and I wouldn't be able to judge it. Only certain experts could. And one can't tell how the dog will mature or develop until later. Also, there are genetic faults or health issues that don't show up until around 2yrs. No dog should be bred until at least 2 yrs old, better, a little older.

I hope everything is in place and goes well for you.

Renee750il

06-24-2005, 02:41 PM

The argument for a breed standard is not simply for aesthetics. It is to preseve and better the breed as a whole. I agree that the show world is exaggerating problems in some breeds (sloping back in GSDs, wrinkled faces in bulldogs, etc.), however that is an internal issue within the breed. Those involved with the breed need to evaluate their standards and what people are breeding towards.

One of the worst things I hold the AKC responsible for is the sacrifice of working abilities on some pretty weird aesthetic standards. WHAT are those rear ends on German Shepherds all about anyway? And they want to make "acceptable" generic, placid pets for everyone who likes the way a dog looks out of breeds that are not placid pets nor appropriate for just any owner or circumstance.

Invisible

06-24-2005, 02:46 PM

Roxy does have an appledome. Her snout is just a little long. And if anyone would care to read the "actual" standard of a Chihuahua and what the faults are, here it is... http://www.akc.org/breeds/chihuahua/index.cfm Roxy Mae fits this description perfectly.

Everyone thinks they know it all. I don't claim to, but I do know what I am getting myself into and I would not breed Roxy if she weren't a PERFECT example of her breed.

Ok I was just wondering. The website was also very helpful! I didn't know there was a long haired chihuahua :eek: lol :p
Good luck with the breeding and keep us updated on Roxy Mae's growth. :)

Ash47

06-24-2005, 05:52 PM

Thank you L4P. You're such a sweety. Also Renee, thanks for taking up for me. I am not in this for money. As I have said before, most puppies will be going to family for free. Also, Roxy does have an apple dome. That means her forehead and the occipital near her neck round out. Deerhead means the snout is a little longer than others. This is not a disqualification. Some have long snouts others have extremely short ones. I am not contradicting myself. If everyone knew the terms I am talking about instead of looking for everything wrong, then this conversation wouldn't be headed this direction. But it seems as though most of you are beginning to see that I am in this for nothing but the breed. I will more than likely not get any money paid to me. Even if I did, I wouldn't break even. I am losing out on this. But it's a loss I am willing to take to help out one of my favorite breeds. ;)

Brattina88

06-24-2005, 06:40 PM

One of the worst things I hold the AKC responsible for is the sacrifice of working abilities on some pretty weird aesthetic standards. WHAT are those rear ends on German Shepherds all about anyway? And they want to make "acceptable" generic, placid pets for everyone who likes the way a dog looks out of breeds that are not placid pets nor appropriate for just any owner or circumstance.
No doubt... And to the previous post about American Cocker's coats I just wanted to add;
Think about what they were orignally bred for, and now picture a show dog now. Obviously hunting dogs don't have the full 'show' coat, but all Maddie has is a short skirt and I have the hardest time keeping twigs, leaves, burrs ect out of her hair and all we do is take hikes through the woos (which she loves to do). And her hair isn't as 'cottony' as other cocker's I've put my hands on that suposidly had points toward their championship.
It isn't practicle at all. Its stricktly for looks, yes?
Anyways
Good Luck Pro47, I hope all goes well for you and your chi, do keep us updated!

EliNHunter

06-24-2005, 06:47 PM

I personally don't like the "standard" AKC's set for golden's, these days. They seem to be so short, squat and almost white with feathers like a cocker. Whatever happened to the big bold red ones? Those are my favs...

candy722

06-24-2005, 06:54 PM

if you ask me, I don't believe in AKC. There's so many people out there that just buy papers and you'll probably end up with a dog that is not even AKC or show quality.

showpug

06-24-2005, 07:11 PM

I agree that there is a lot lacking within AKC when it comes to preserving the conformation of certain breeds that allows them to do their job etc. I do however hold the breed clubs more responsbile as they are the ones that create the standard for their breed, not AKC. AKC approves the standard. I would think that the most diligent owners of a breed, the breed club would prevent the massacre...such as that of the German Shepherd. I blame the breed clubs before I blame AKC on that one.

Oh, and no one ever said that AKC papers guarantee quality. The best way to explain papers is like a dog's social security number...and yes, sometimes they are fake.

Next, the Chi is a toy breed. The purpose of the dog is aesthetic. They don't have a purpose historically other than being a loving companion and looking a certain way. This is why I think it is important to at least show your toy breed to a qualified judge before breeding. They have the experience of many years of hard work. I think it is a respect issue and necessary for the future of the breed. What if we all just bred our dog sbecause in our "opinion" they fit the standard. What if their was nothing to test our ability to interpret the standard against. Could you imagine what would happen to the way certain breeds look. It would all be based on personal preference rather than the way it is suppose to be. That is the whole purpose of the dog show, to keep us on track for breeding dogs the way they are suppose to be. I am not saying that all dogs that are going to be bred should have a conformation championship, but I certainly think it is important for toy breeds...because part of their purpose is that, beauty. In fact, I think if a dog is bred it should have some form of a title to help better the pedigree and future generations. The dog should be proven in some avenue. Otherwise, it is only our opinion that decided whether we should or shouldn't breed, and I don't know about you, but we all think our dogs are the most beautiful dogs in the world, but that does not make it breed quality. :)

Babyblue5290

06-24-2005, 07:15 PM

I was watching a show that said that some toy breeds where used to keep the fleas off the people. What a wonderful job ;)

Anyways, Pro I wish you luck with finding a suitible mate and Roxy has a problem free pregnancy. I think your a really resposible person and I know you have the breeds, and Roxy's, best interest in heart :)

Doberluv

06-24-2005, 07:26 PM

Renee, I agree about things like what they're doing to the GSD. That slope was meant, in the beginning to enable them to take long strides and cover more ground with little effort. They are a trotting dog. They've taken it to such extremes, that they've not only defeated their purpose, but caused terrible problems.

Thankfully, IMO, they've improved the Doberman over the years. They are not a fad breed at the moment.

I'm sure your Chi is lovely Pro. I only meant the same stuff that goes on, like with the GSD goes on in lots of breeds. These people breeding Chi's to be 2 LBS is disgusting. Your Chi and mine are wopping 6 pounders. LOL. My Chi does not have the greatest conformation as she is not from a reputable breeder. Her temperament is stupendous and she's healthy. I would never dream of breeding her. My Doberman, on the other hand has very good conformation, good temperament, good health (so far) and I still wouldn't dream of breeding him. There are better dogs out there, I'm sure to improve the breed over all. Plus, he's neutered, so I couldn't breed him. LOL.

Since your Chi is so excellent and has no health issues, maybe you can improve the breed and add some excellence. Maybe they need more dogs like yours to help out.

Good luck!

showpug

06-24-2005, 07:28 PM

[QUOTE=Pro47]Ok, as most of you know, I have Roxy Mae the Chihuahua. Ok, she is a deerhead, meaning the shape of her head is like that that of a deer's head. This is not standard and I could not show her. Now, the Taco Bell dog (most of you know what he looked like), was an appledome. Their heads are huge and bulging with small faces. Roxy's face is proportionate to her head. You can definetely tell she is Chihuahua, but she doesn't necessarily have that "standard" look. So, what you do you guys prefer? Appledome or Deerhead?? Personally, I could go for either. I am in love with Chihuahuas and like all their "looks."

I am really confused now...I thought you said that your dog was a "PERFECT" example of the breed and that you could indeed show her...so why did you write the above in a different thread?

Doberluv

06-24-2005, 08:03 PM

Showpug! I must have forgotten what I read way back there. LOL. Good heavens!

bubbatd

06-24-2005, 08:36 PM

As I posted before....Pro has a couple of years to decide......my advise is NOT to give away puppies ! If you have 3 pups and 3 close friends fine......but never advertise free puppies. Your litter will cost you at the least $100. per pup . with , hopefully no unexpected problems. This does not included the stud fee or pick of the litter. I'm glad you have the years to make this a good out come for you and Roxy's pups. Will be anxious to hear in a few years how you decided !!! It's an interesting and rewarding adverture when you have the best interest of your female and the breed at heart. I agree, you've posted here to get advise and I know you will do what's right !

Doberluv

06-24-2005, 08:36 PM

From the AKC Website

Quote:
Head
A well rounded "apple dome" skull, with or without molera. Expression - Saucy. Eyes - Full, but not protruding, balanced, set well apart-luminous dark or luminous ruby. (Light eyes in blond or white-colored dogs permissible.) Ears - Large, erect type ears, held more upright when alert, but flaring to the sides at a 45 degree angle when in repose, giving breadth between the ears. Muzzle - Moderately short, slightly pointed. Cheeks and jaws lean. Nose - Self-colored in blond types, or black. In moles, blues, and chocolates, they are self-colored. In blond types, pink nose permissible. Bite - Level or scissors. Overshot or undershot bite, or any distortion of the bite or jaw, should be penalized as a serious fault. Disqualifications - Broken down or cropped ears.

This is the only acceptable head for a Chihuahua.

Here is a quote from a Chihuahua breeder on a different site:
Quote:
The term Deer Chihuahua is just a descriptive term, not a type of breed. There is one breed standard. AKC has a description. Usually a "deer" is farthest away from the standard...longer legs, less of an apple head, etc. Even the term Apple Head Chihuahua is just a description, not a breed. And as far as Teacup goes, that's the biggest joke. First of all, there is no such breed. It's simply a small chihuahua and may be prone to more of the problems chi's face with their hips, etc. If someone is charging you more for a "rare" blue or a "teacup," they are either ignorant or are trying to make an extra buck.

Note that the "deer head" is as far from standard as you can get!!

Many people call us asking if we have "apple head" or "deer head" Chihuahuas implying that these are separate and distinct breeds or at least sub-classifications within the breed. This can not be further from the truth. The Chihuahua Club of America and the American Kennel Club recognize only one head type as being the standard for the Chihuahua. According to the Official AKC Standard For The Chihuahua, the Chihuahua has a distinctive "Apple Dome" headpiece that is essential to correct breed type.

quoted from another site:

Many people call us asking if we have "apple head" or "deer head" Chihuahuas implying that these are separate and distinct breeds or at least sub-classifications within the breed. This can not be further from the truth. The Chihuahua Club of America and the American Kennel Club recognize only one head type as being the standard for the Chihuahua. According to the Official AKC Standard For The Chihuahua, the Chihuahua has a distinctive "Apple Dome" headpiece that is essential to correct breed type.

Early in the establishment of the breed in the US, it was common practice for breeders to cross breed the Chihuahua with the small Terrier breeds to "strengthen" the breed and also to develop a new breed that is now known as the Toy Fox Terrier. This practice is no longer accepted, however some of the terrier traits occasionally surface in the pure breed Chihuahua. The "Deer Head" characteristic of some Chihuahuas is due to this mix breeding. Wile these individuals are pure breed Chihuahuas, the "deer head" characteristic would be considered a fault or disqualification in competition.

Doberluv

06-24-2005, 08:44 PM

If you're interested in breeding, spend some years researching it and save up for the very best female you can get your hands on and get a mentor, someone who is a very reputable and experienced breeder who can walk through it with you, can answer questions and help you find a good match for a mate for your girl. You could go to shows, look at lots of dogs, compare them, study them and talk to Chihuahua people and learn a lot. That would be my best advice.

Whether or not we agree with the standards in every case, breeders need to have something to go by, to adhere to, otherwise there would be Chihuahuas who didn't look like eachother and Dobermans who were so different from each other. Of course there has to be a standard to strive for. If there is an opposition to the way a breed is developing, that has to be up to the breed clubs to make changes. Breeders can't just go around breeding dogs who are not fitting the outlined, established specs.

Ash47

06-24-2005, 09:16 PM

I see how everyone is confused. I could show Roxy as her snout being a little long is not a disqualification. But I wouldn't because she is not what people are used to seeing. Why would they pick her?? What I meant by saying she doesn't have that "standard" look, is that she doesn't have the kind of Chi face a lot of people are used to seeing... She doesn't have the "common" look. As Renee said, find another Chi that is in good health and has good temperament that is on the other side of the spectrum with a short snout and then the puppies will have a better chance of coming out right down the middle. I never ever said I was going to do this right now or even in a year. I said the way things are going right now, I am going to. Everything is looking good. I was just announcing the way the situation looks at this moment. As grammy is telling me, who knows what it will look like when Roxy is 3 or 4?? She may have cancer or she may be in great health and ok to be a mom. Grammy, I am not advertising free puppies. I am not even advertising that she may have puppies in the paper or anywhere. The only people that know are you guys. I haven't even told anyone that I am giving the pups to them. That is just what I am going to do. I don't want any money. The way it is at my work is that when we get something done to one of our pets there, it just goes on our bill and we get 20$ taken out each week. So, I won't lose a lump sum or anything at once. So, that makes it a little better. Besides, I am not even worried about the money. And it isn't that I want to see puppies grow up, I see them everyday. It isn't that I want another Roxy. I know that isn't possible to have another dog that is exactly like her. But I do want to pass on some of her traits. She has great ones. Her sire will have great ones also, as I will settle for nothing less.

Ash47

06-24-2005, 09:21 PM

Thank you Babyblue. I am only thinking of her and the Chihuahua breed.

bubbatd

06-24-2005, 10:06 PM

Good for you !!! Stick to your guns !!!

Babyblue5290

06-24-2005, 10:23 PM

Thank you Babyblue. I am only thinking of her and the Chihuahua breed.

Your welcome! :D

mrose_s

06-25-2005, 05:43 AM

Have to second what Doberluv said...I have had mixes myself, but the idea of breeding a mix on purpose is very irresponsible in my opinion. :

trust me this was worth it. And in the physical bauty department, both beautiful dogs, there was martha (the boxer/bully) and the male looked like he had mastiff or something in him. My mother likes big heavy dogs that can go jogging, mixes are GREAT if bred corectly they can make great pets,
I think the idea of breeding only purebreds is sad. some people don't care that much about their dogs bred background, I would be quite happy if I could just meet the parents. Purebreds are great but I would hate to e stuck in a world where all dogs are purebred.

mrose_s

06-25-2005, 05:50 AM

And everyone is talking about the breeds standards. Are you breeding her to produce show dogs?

if you follow all of that exactly we would have a heap of BC's that wern't as drievn or as EliNHunter said (sort of) a whole lot of white Golden's.
you can't let standards rule your dog

Ash47

06-25-2005, 12:41 PM

mrose,
I'm sorry, but I can't take advice from you. You allowed two mixes to breed. I will only take advice from ethical responsible breeders, no one else on here is telling me things I don't already know.

Renee750il

06-25-2005, 01:17 PM

I was watching a show that said that some toy breeds where used to keep the fleas off the people. What a wonderful job ;)

And I've seen some Chihuahuas that changed from bored, snippy dogs into bright, energetic, well mannered little beasties after a cat taught them to be mousers! They make excellent mousers, lol!

EliNHunter

06-25-2005, 01:40 PM

And I've seen some Chihuahuas that changed from bored, snippy dogs into bright, energetic, well mannered little beasties after a cat taught them to be mousers! They make excellent mousers, lol!

Then maybe I need a Chi. Especially after I found the cats "playing" with a big ole field mouse in my living room. I brought Hunter in to get it since the cats were obviously entertaining themselves, only. The mouse was going for an open closet. I told Hunter to GET IT! He picks it up in his mouth, raises his head, and goes PITOOOOOOOOEY! And spits it out of his mouth as it flies into one of my winter coats and run up the sleeve!!! :eek:

I never saw it again :rolleyes:

3furkids

06-26-2005, 07:38 PM

trust me this was worth it. And in the physical bauty department, both beautiful dogs, there was martha (the boxer/bully) and the male looked like he had mastiff or something in him. My mother likes big heavy dogs that can go jogging, mixes are GREAT if bred corectly they can make great pets,

Have you ever spent time in a shelter as a volunteer or worker?? Have you ever had to assist in the euthanasia of dogs or cats?? Holding them while the needle is inserted into them and they are looking into your eyes. I have and its NOT fun! If you have you would think twice about breeding a mixed breed dog. Do you have a clue how many are euthanized everyday because there are not enough homes for them?? How many of those pups that you allowed to be born are being cared for properly, are not in shelters or a re still alive?? This is my pet peeve. On top of having volunteered on a board of directors for an SPCA I am also invloved in rescue. If there weren't irresponsible people around we would not need shelters and rescues. :mad: :mad: :mad: By breeding your mixed breed you can't possibly think all the pups will be just like her. And the complications of pregnancy...if you are not experienced or have no mentor, do not do it. For the sake of your dog!

I am all for breeding if it is done to better a breed and is done in a responsible way by a reputable breeder.

Edited to say. I own a mixed breed that I rescued from a shelter. On average out of the dogs who come in about 3% or less are purebreds. I think that says something.

Babyblue5290

06-26-2005, 11:38 PM

Have you ever spent time in a shelter as a volunteer or worker?? Have you ever had to assist in the euthanasia of dogs or cats?? Holding them while the needle is inserted into them and they are looking into your eyes. I have and its NOT fun! If you have you would think twice about breeding a mixed breed dog. Do you have a clue how many are euthanized everyday because there are not enough homes for them?? How many of those pups that you allowed to be born are being cared for properly, are not in shelters or a re still alive?? This is my pet peeve. On top of having volunteered on a board of directors for an SPCA I am also invloved in rescue. If there weren't irresponsible people around we would not need shelters and rescues. :mad: :mad: :mad: By breeding your mixed breed you can't possibly think all the pups will be just like her. And the complications of pregnancy...if you are not experienced or have no mentor, do not do it. For the sake of your dog!

I am all for breeding if it is done to better a breed and is done in a responsible way by a reputable breeder.

Edited to say. I own a mixed breed that I rescued from a shelter. On average out of the dogs who come in about 3% or less are purebreds. I think that says something.

I'm guessing all that isn't aimed towards Pro......right?

gapeach

06-26-2005, 11:40 PM

I believe it's for Mrose

Babyblue5290

06-26-2005, 11:43 PM

I believe it's for Mrose

ooohh......thanks :)

gapeach

06-26-2005, 11:49 PM

You're welcome :D

3furkids

06-27-2005, 01:22 AM

I'm guessing all that isn't aimed towards Pro......right?

No. I was just a little hot under the collar about the breeding of mutts. Just something that I hugely disagree with. Jut my .02 cents on the subject.

juliefurry

06-27-2005, 01:57 AM

I don't agree with breeding mixed breeds purposely. I bought my mixed from a breeder though. He's a pitbull mix and the only reason that I bought him from a breeder instead of going to a shelter is because I have a young daughter and I wanted to make sure that he grew up in the proper enviroment, my husband didn't want to risk the dog snapping for some unknown reason. This way we know how he was raised and what to look out for, if he had any food aggression or anything which he doesn't. I really wanted a pit and this was the only way to put my husband's mind at ease about getting a pitbull.

casablanca1

06-27-2005, 11:14 AM

gaddylovesdogs

06-27-2005, 11:25 AM

I am completely against mixed-breeding also. I don't know how many dogs are euthanized in Australia, but here in the US of A, five million dogs are euthanized every year. 750,000 dogs and cats are gassed to death annually in Lousiana alone - that's ONE state. 11,000,00 pets are killed every year. And many of these deaths are because of irresponsible breeding (this includes mixed-breeding).

You can find a great mixed-breed at a shelter. If you want a mixed-breed dog, why not rescue one? I have to mixed dogs - a canaan/terrier mix and a border collie/shepherd mix. They're wonderful, beautiful, and adorable dogs, I love them to death. But just because I love them and just because they rock this world (:)) doesn't mean they should have puppies.

showpug

06-27-2005, 12:06 PM

>On average out of the dogs who come in about 3% or less are purebreds. I think that says something.<

It means that you live in a more rural area. In more densely populated areas, the rate is more like 50/50.

The shelter we have here in the BIG city has almost all mixed breeds as well. It is rare that you ever come across a purebred in the shelter here.

I think people who breed purebreds can also be "bad" breeders and contribute to pet over population, but it is a fact that mixes are often homeless well before purebreds and thats just the way it is.

I think if you breed any dog, you need to prove yourself worthy. I don't think breeding should be a right, I think it should be a priviledge after you prove that your main focus is to improve the breed and you are educated about breeding and rearing puppies. I am shocked that so many people are willing to put their bitches at risk for the "experience" of breedig a litter. My goal someday, is to become a breeder, BUT ONLY after I have become very accomplished in the show ring, worked under my mentor for years and have attended many health and conformation seminars. Evan after I have accomplished all of this, I will still be so terrified and barley able to breathe at the thought of loosing one of my girls. I want to breed pugs because they are my passion in life and my hobby, but I don't know if I could ever forgive myself or deal with the loss of one of them from breeding. I don't think people realize that things can and do go wrong and the choice to breed has to be weighed heavily. :(

casablanca1

06-27-2005, 02:10 PM

The shelter we have here in the BIG city has almost all mixed breeds as well. It is rare that you ever come across a purebred in the shelter here. I think people who breed purebreds can also be "bad" breeders and contribute to pet over population, but it is a fact that mixes are often homeless well before purebreds and thats just the way it is.(

Didn't mean to call anyone a clodhopper, just saying that the mutt/purebred ratio is much more even in densely populated regions. I live in NJ, in the Philadelphia metro area, where the shelters are packed with purebred dogs. More people, more $$$, more ego and more mobility. Dogs get bought for nice middle-class families who did their research and paid for a well-bred puppy, then get transferred and can't take Rover. Most of the shelters I've seen, there are three kinds of dogs - pits and pit mixes mainly from low-income and working-class neighborhoods and towns, retriever and spaniel and collie mixes mainly from working-class and lower-middle-class towns and neighborhoods, and the purebreds, mainly from McMansion developments and wealthy towns. The ratio, especially if you discount pits from both the pure and mix ranks, is close to even.

EliNHunter

06-27-2005, 04:42 PM

3furkids

06-27-2005, 05:30 PM

They GAS dogs and cats to death in LA?????? That's BARBARIC!!!!

And you don't even want to know what kind of death they suffer! Or euthanizing a cat with a needle into the heart (cringe). It is awful :(

The shelter we have here in the BIG city has almost all mixed breeds as well. It is rare that you ever come across a purebred in the shelter here.

I think people who breed purebreds can also be "bad" breeders and contribute to pet over population, but it is a fact that mixes are often homeless well before purebreds and thats just the way it is.

Thats the way it is here too. Maybe because the people in my area are not willing to hand something over if they paid a decent amount of money for it.

paramount

06-27-2005, 07:36 PM

Didn't mean to call anyone a clodhopper, just saying that the mutt/purebred ratio is much more even in densely populated regions. I live in NJ, in the Philadelphia metro area, where the shelters are packed with purebred dogs. More people, more $$$, more ego and more mobility. Dogs get bought for nice middle-class families who did their research and paid for a well-bred puppy, then get transferred and can't take Rover. Most of the shelters I've seen, there are three kinds of dogs - pits and pit mixes mainly from low-income and working-class neighborhoods and towns, retriever and spaniel and collie mixes mainly from working-class and lower-middle-class towns and neighborhoods, and the purebreds, mainly from McMansion developments and wealthy towns. The ratio, especially if you discount pits from both the pure and mix ranks, is close to even.

I live in a county where the cheapest house is 1000 square ft with barely a yard sold for $450,000. The cost of a dog is nothing for most people here, yet, 60% of the shelter dogs are pitt mixes. We have some very active breed rescue organizations but still, thats the numbers. I'm also near San Francisco and San Jose, both shelters have atleast 60% pitt mixes. Economics and population density really doesn't have as much of a factor that one would imagine.

gaddylovesdogs

06-27-2005, 08:02 PM

They GAS dogs and cats to death in LA?????? That's BARBARIC!!!!
Yup. I can't imagine what that kind of death is like - I hear they often get scared and attack eachother. If they aren't dead after one gassing, they're gassed again. :( :mad:
Injection of the euthanasia drug is much, much better, and much more humane IMO.

bubbatd

06-27-2005, 09:31 PM

It's so sad to me. The only dogs and cats that should be at Humane Societys are the ones found on the streets without a collar. Pure breds should be sent to rescues...any one who has an " accident" litter should have to pay to put up for adoption. AND be TOLD to spay !!!! I still feel there has to be more control of licencing dogs...Male and females ....neutered animals fees and breeders fees. People need to have to pay for their in tact animals.

EliNHunter

06-27-2005, 10:11 PM

Yup. I can't imagine what that kind of death is like - I hear they often get scared and attack eachother. If they aren't dead after one gassing, they're gassed again. :( :mad:
Injection of the euthanasia drug is much, much better, and much more humane IMO.

Why would the gas them and not euthanize them humanly? Is it a cost issue?

gaddylovesdogs

06-27-2005, 10:32 PM

Why would the gas them and not euthanize them humanly? Is it a cost issue?
Yes, I believe it's cheaper :(

Love4Pits

06-27-2005, 10:41 PM

Yeah my aunt just had her dog pts and it cost her $200

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 04:44 AM

Babyblue5290

06-28-2005, 04:47 AM

And reemeber, where I live, we don't have ANY shelters and any dogs that end up on the street usually end up either picked up by the pound or become camp dogs.

Are you saying there's a difference between a pound and a shelter?

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 05:36 AM

no, sorry bout that, i thought about it after i posted it and it isnt.

we have an RSPCA but no shelter, we are currently trying to fundraise

Babyblue5290

06-28-2005, 05:42 AM

:) ok

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 05:45 AM

cool, :D love your dogs BB

Babyblue5290

06-28-2005, 05:49 AM

Thanks.....I love them too ;)

bridey_01

06-28-2005, 08:58 AM

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 09:13 AM

i agree bridey

bridey_01

06-28-2005, 09:30 AM

no offense to the bichons:)

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 09:56 AM

gaddylovesdogs

06-28-2005, 10:07 AM

"Breeding for the betterment of the breed".
Could someone just verify for me what this actually means.
"Breeding for the betterment of the breed" means breeding healthy, sound dogs that will produce more healthy sound dogs instead of dogs with serious health and behavioral problems.

but only breeding purebreds is like saying we can't have chinese people with australians or americans with japanese, and that is considered racist.
A Chinese person marrying an Australian and having children is completely different that say, a Shar Pei mating with a Kelpie. The off-spring of humans are not thrown onto the streets. They do not starve to death. They are not gassed to death when their family decides they're too stubborn, or too picky. In America, we don't have millions of humans being euthanized every year. I'm sure you don't in Australia, either.

gaddylovesdogs

06-28-2005, 10:09 AM

but just because it is "iresponsible" to breed two mixes doesnt mean there isnt a demand. Nearly every person we see that meets sophie wants a pup if she has any.
I don't care if there is a demand. I have people tell me all the time my dogs are such good dogs, and that they're pretty. But just because someone likes my dog doesn't mean I should breed it.

a lot of people lettheir dogs free roam so a lot of accident puppies are born
That's why people should spay and neuter their pets. If a male dog smells a female in heat, he'll do anything to get to her.

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 10:12 AM

exactley, and i see your points so its ok

showpug

06-28-2005, 10:13 AM

Hmm. The whole issue is very convaluted. "Breeding for the betterment of the breed".
Could someone just verify for me what this actually means. What is the end outcome, puppies born with halos?
I believe in breeding for the betterment of the dog. In my opinion, i would breed that life saving, loyal, wise mix over a brainless bichon any day.

It means, that you are temperment testing your breeding stock along with doing genetic health screens to make sure your efforts result in healthy puppies. It means that you are breeding a certain breed to adhere as close as you can to their written standard. That you breed dogs of a certain breed that are great examples of how that breed is suppose to act and look so you preserve what we know of the dogs we love. It means you pay attention to what makes a breed what it is and that your sole intent is to preserve the pointers ability to point birds, the newfie's ability to swim and save lives and the pugs ability to cuddle and never act aggressive. It means that you care more about the dogs than you do your own interests and personal taste. To better the breed is to believe that purebred dogs were created for a reason and a good one at that. It means to protect their foundation and heritage and to act responsibly on their behalf.

The result...a whole lot of satisfaction knowing you were a part in keeping the breed you know and love what it is today. Knowing that you produced puppies that are great examples of their breed that will act and carry out what they are suppose to. Knowing that the families you placed your puppies with will love the fact that they got what they were hoping for and did their research on. The best result is knowing that any puppies produved by you were only done so with the best of intentions and the dogs future at heart.

3furkids

06-28-2005, 10:16 AM

well i suppose it depends on what sort of qualities you are looking for, but only breeding purebreds is like saying we can't have chinese people with australians or americans with japanese, and that is considered racist.

People and dogs are NOT the same. We are not dependant on dogs, they are on us and it is up tp people to prtect and keep dogs safe. And I still believe that is people are going around and breeding their dog just because she is cute and other people love her is VERY irrisponsible!!! :mad: Just answer this....WHY bring more dogs into the world when there are so many dying in shelters everyday???? Every pup that you allow to be born is causing suffering and death to other animals.

Seriously...go volunteer at the shelter/pound. Once you look into a dogs eyes that is dying you will understand.

I believe in breeding for the betterment of the dog. In my opinion, i would breed that life saving, loyal, wise mix over a brainless bichon any day.
Well lets hope that you don't for the same reasons above. How do you know her pups would have the same characteristics?

bridey_01

06-28-2005, 10:16 AM

I believe the exact same principles for not breeding mixes applies for not breeding purebreeds. I work in a shelter too, and it is at least fifty fifty.
Sound dogs can be bred from mixes, that's obvious.
"Breeding for the betterment of the breed" means breeding healthy, sound dogs that will produce more healthy sound dogs instead of dogs with serious health and behavioral problems."
You can do this just as well with mixed breeds. In my experience pure bred dogs seem to have a whole lot more problems than mixes. This arises from so much linebreeding, something that is rarely done when breeding mixes.
Now, it must be said that i do not advocate indescriminate breeding of ANY dogs, regardless of breed. I just stated that, given the choice of breeding yet ANOTHER litter of little purebreds so that their ears are a little higher or their coat is closer to the standard, i would breed a mix of stunning temperament.

3furkids

06-28-2005, 10:20 AM

believe the exact same principles for not breeding mixes applies for not breeding purebreeds. I work in a shelter too, and it is at least fifty fifty.

How can you work in a shelter and advocate breeding mixes?? This is shocking to me. :eek:

Isn't there enough pups in the world that die needlessly?

gaddylovesdogs

06-28-2005, 10:20 AM

As I said earlier, I don't know how bad your overpopulation problem is in Australia, but it's bad here in America. I don't see how anyone could breed more mixes when there are millions and millions out there in need of homes. :mad:

showpug

06-28-2005, 10:25 AM

ok, i see all your points.
but just because it is "iresponsible" to breed two mixes doesnt mean there isnt a demand. Nearly every person we see that meets sophie wants a pup if she has any. But she is a little too old now so we won't breed her.
And reemeber, where I live, we don't have ANY shelters and any dogs that end up on the street usually end up either picked up by the pound or become camp dogs. We have very few purebreds in this town (ratio compared to mixes) and a lot of people lettheir dogs free roam :mad: so a lot of accident puppies are born, we have had to abortian daisy once because she ran away while on heat. And dogs always jump our fence when sophie is.

Instead of aborting puppies you could consider getting her spayed :confused: By leaving her intact, you are almost guaranteeing her mammary and uterine cancer and pyometra a deadly uterine infection. It is just not healthy to leave them intact just for the heck of it. If she is older now, why on earth is she not spayed??? This baffles me.

bridey_01

06-28-2005, 10:33 AM

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 10:33 AM

People and dogs are NOT the same. We are not dependant on dogs, they are on us and it is up tp people to prtect and keep dogs safe. And I still believe that is people are going around and breeding their dog just because she is cute and other people love her is VERY irrisponsible!!! :mad: Just answer this....WHY bring more dogs into the world when there are so many dying in shelters everyday???? Every pup that you allow to be born is causing suffering and death to other animals.

and remember, people think that having a child is lovely and great, when there are children of all ages in orphanages all over the world. Some don't even have that luxury, some kids, in other countries, get shot if they live on the street. And we have overpopulated the earth, yet having a baby if your human is still considered a celebration.

3furkids

06-28-2005, 10:37 AM

and remember, people think that having a child is lovely and great, when there are children of all ages in orphanages all over the world. Some don't even have that luxury, some kids, in other countries, get shot if they live on the street. And we have overpopulated the earth, yet having a baby if your human is still considered a celebration.

But the conversation is about breeding dogs.... IMHO, yes the human population has its problems too but that is another thread. (I work in as school as well ;) )

3furkids

06-28-2005, 10:38 AM

How can i work in a shelter and advocate breeding ANY dogs would be a more appropriate question. And, i never advocated breeding mixes, i merely stated that given a CHOICE as in a HYPOTHETICAL situation i would breed for behaviour over looks, and if the behaviour in the mix was superior to the pure i would breed the mix. read more carefully.

Lets just say that you and I agree to disagree :) Becaue I am all for breeding purebred dogs if done by a reputable breeder ( that had a low number of litters a year if any). This way the dogs are costing $ and people will stop and think before buying. Also they are health and temperment tested. Like I said I own a mutt that I rescued from the shelter. I love her dearly but would never dream of breeding her!

bridey_01

06-28-2005, 10:43 AM

So, in this hypothetical situation you would breed the purebred with the bad temperament instead of the mix with a stunning one?
I just think breeders breed to many litters, simply to edge that one inch closer to the "breed standard". I am very concerned about overpopulation, and all of my dogs are fixed and adopted from shelters,(two of them are purebreeds!)

Doberluv

06-28-2005, 10:48 AM

3furkids

06-28-2005, 10:51 AM

I fi had a purebred with a bad temperment I would NOT breed it. I am saying reputable, good breeders. Not just any joe blow who has a purebred...those are backyard breeders who don't breed for health and temperment.

I am glad we both agree on overpopulation and spaying a neutering :D

Myself, I would never attempt to breed dogs (or cats).

bridey_01

06-28-2005, 10:54 AM

Me neither, i simply don't know enough. But let's not forget that nearly EVERY purebreed was made from mixing!
I also dislike how they breed out the intelligence for the showring. If ever I bred, i would breed the super intelligence back into the rough collie.

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 10:54 AM

OK....I'll settle this. (tee hee hee)

Don't breed any mixes and spay and neuter them all.

Breed only the finest specimens of purebreds (spay and neuter the rest) and only by reputable, responsible, ethical, stupendous breeders who know what they're doing and do it right.

There. I said it. :)

i beg to differ there, sorry Doberluv, I do respect you but.
Imagine this, you arnt a supermodel so you can't pass on your gene?
i know you keep saying don't compare it to humans, but it puts it in perspective

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 10:59 AM

i would breed my dog one day if I had one with a wonderful tempermant, in great physical AND MENTAL state, the father would be great also, i had owners lined up and I would consult reputable breeders for their opinion. But that isn't something I am aiming on really so not sure if it will happen

showpug

06-28-2005, 11:36 AM

I am getting a little tired of people thinking that show dogs are dumb and just "supermodels." I take offense to this. I show my dogs and they are not dumb AND I would never breed one with a poor temperment or a personality that does not reflect the breed. I know many show people in different breeds as well. Many whom have multiple working/field trial/obedience titles on their dogs. In fact, a lot of show people don't just show in conformation, they show in a lot of different avenues many of which require brains and a functioning athletic body. I get upset by people always passing judgment on show dogs, especially when they know nothing about it. I promise you that "show" breeders are not just breeding for looks. The good ones never breed a dog with a bad temperment and MANY require other titles on their dogs as well before breeding. Some of the top winners at Westminster and Eukanuba have been obedience champions, field trial champions, agility champions and registered therapy dogs. These dog have brains and they deserve some recognition and a lot less put down.

As far as the breeding of mixes goes...good temperment or not, they should not bre bred, and the same goes for purebreds. Temperment should not be the only reason to breed a dog anyway.

gaddylovesdogs

06-28-2005, 11:38 AM

and remember, people think that having a child is lovely and great, when there are children of all ages in orphanages all over the world. Some don't even have that luxury, some kids, in other countries, get shot if they live on the street. And we have overpopulated the earth, yet having a baby if your human is still considered a celebration.
The human does have it's problems, and all those homeless children out there is one of them. But dogs are not humans. They don't decide, "I want puppies!" If a human wants to have a child, they have a right to. Do you really think a dog really wants puppies?

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 11:46 AM

i wouldnt know, im not a dog.

Doberluv

06-28-2005, 12:34 PM

doberluv: Breed only the finest specimens of purebreds

Mrose: Imagine this, you arnt a supermodel so you can't pass on your gene?

When I say finest, I mean supermodels. LOL. (of the dog world) which includes, not only looks, conformation, but many other attributes, built to do a job they were bred to do, the mentality, temperament, health, genetics....the finest, the creme of the crop.

Of course we can't compare to human beings. It does NOT put it in perspective. There is no perspective to be gained by comparing dogs breeding practices and human beings'. LOL. We can't go around controlling who breeds and who doesn't...in humans. That's a completely different thing. This is a discussion about dogs, not people. LOL.

Doberluv

06-28-2005, 12:40 PM

Showpug: I am getting a little tired of people thinking that show dogs are dumb and just "supermodels." I take offense to this. I show my dogs and they are not dumb AND I would never breed one with a poor temperment or a personality that does not reflect the breed. I know many show people in different breeds as well. Many whom have multiple working/field trial/obedience titles on their dogs. In fact, a lot of show people don't just show in conformation, they show in a lot of different avenues many of which require brains and a functioning athletic body. I get upset by people always passing judgment on show dogs, especially when they know nothing about it. I promise you that "show" breeders are not just breeding for looks. The good ones never breed a dog with a bad temperment and MANY require other titles on their dogs as well before breeding. Some of the top winners at Westminster and Eukanuba have been obedience champions, field trial champions, agility champions and registered therapy dogs. These dog have brains and they deserve some recognition and a lot less put down.

As far as the breeding of mixes goes...good temperment or not, they should not bre bred, and the same goes for purebreds. Temperment should not be the only reason to breed a dog anyway.
__________________

Well said Showpug. People that make statements about show dogs being nothing but pretty are so terribly uninformed. I get tired of it too. The top winners have it all....brains, beauty, conformational design, temperament, health, genetics to do it all....the jobs they were bred to do and in keeping with the standard. If there are some flaws in some standards, I think that is the minority. There are some problems there, yes. (like with GSDs IMO) But all in all, people are taking that and blowing it out of proportion and saying that most all showdogs suck. That's ridiculous and not true...sounds like sour grapes to me.

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 01:03 PM

ok, well, reme,ber that if you breed the cremem of the crop you end up with a whole lot of, just that perfect and !expensive! dogs. Dogs are our pets and our friends, it doesnt really matter if they are suited for show or not. Why not use this time to encourage poepel to adopt from shelters. Prevention is better than cure, but I would hate a worl with no mixes.

showpug

06-28-2005, 01:42 PM

I show dogs, and I own a mix. I am not against mixes and there will always mixes that have a purpose too (loving companions.) If you can't afford a well bred purebred, then get a mix they need homes too. I am all for adopting dogs...I have myself, but I just get sick and tired of people thinking it is okay to breed any dog. Prove that you have put time, research and skill into breeding and I am fine with it. The reason we have all the mixes and dogs in the shelters is because everyone and their neighbor decides it is okay to breed any dog which leads to pet over-population. Cruddy purebred breeders are responsible for this problem too. They breed far too many litters a year without doing any testing or competing with their dogs to even determine if they are worthy of breeding. The show breeders I know breed 1 litter a year tops and you would not believe the amount of research and testing that goes into it. It is a disgrace to the dogs and future pet owners to produce anything that is sub-standard in my opinion. Adopt a dog if you don't want a purebred, or if you don't want to pay a lot.

Doberluv....well said you too. I always like hearing what you have to say, because I feel like we are on the same page when it comes to protecting dogs and caring about mass production and backyard breeders. Keep up the good work :)

mrose_s

06-28-2005, 01:49 PM

whats ure mix showpug?

showpug

06-28-2005, 02:42 PM

whats ure mix showpug?

My mix is a wolfhound/mastiff cross puppy. He is 14 weeks old and the sweetest boy ever. His name is Norman. :)

candy722

06-28-2005, 03:36 PM

How do toy breeds keep fleas off people? Do they eat them?
Hey Pro, Im sure your going to have a great success on your first litter.
I also read somewhere that weight on the dog doesn't even matter. SOme people say they've seen 4 lb female delivering safe while the 6 lb female struggles. I guess it depends on the structure of your female and how strong she is.

06-28-2005, 06:26 PM

BigDog2191

06-28-2005, 06:35 PM

I'm starting not to be too fond of the AKC...

showpug

06-28-2005, 07:00 PM

Jeez...

Pro, just to clarify, a slightly long muzzle is just that - a slightly long muzzle! It has nothing to do with your dog having a "Deer head", she simply has a slightly faulted muzzle. No dog is perfect.

That, IMO, should not be the deciding factor on whether breeding her would contribute something of value to the breed. I have not seen your dog, I know very little about her besides the way her head looks, and I am not in any position to tell you that she -isn't- worthy of breeding. That's your decision to make, just be sure you make the responsible one.

I find it disappointing, however, that conformation to AKC's standard seems to take the main priority in breeding. :(

Why is it dissapointing? Any good reputable breeder would adhere to standard, but that would not be the main deciding factor in breeding. Top breeders don't just pay attention to AKC standard. That is a small piece of the puzzle when it comes to breeding quality dogs. Do you think that people should just breed based on personal preference? Do you think that I should breed pugs a different color just because I like the color? Where do the limits start and where do they end?...oh, I guess the standard would tell us that.

bridey_01

06-28-2005, 09:29 PM

I don't think show dogs are dumb, that kind of generalisation could get me into alot of trouble, lol.
But, i must say, some breeds have just been butchered over the years. Like when queen Victoria discovered the super intelligent "colley dog" and decided she would dumb it down and transform it into a family pet.
All those great herding insticts, out the window when she put the borzoi in. And there is a MASSIVE difference in working and show lines, at least here in Australia.
When i am teaching i can tell straight away which Kelpies are from show and which from working (and let me tell you, it is the show which normally learn slower).
I don't know if this same "dumbing down" process has gone into our beloved kelpies (they are pretty intense and unsuitable for homes if they are from working lines)
but i hate to see those squat little things and their squinty eyes waddle into class.
I hate it even more when people look at my kelpie and tell me she is too "leggy", I tell them, at least she can perform what she is bred to do!

showpug

06-28-2005, 09:34 PM

Bridey...I do agree with you that there has been a masacre when it comes to some breeds in the show ring. Part of me feels like if a dog is bred to work, hunt, or herd that they should have to prove through competition that they can do their original task AND aquire conformation points before they can obtain their championship. This would help prevent some of the "dumbing down." I show toy dogs and I think that they should pass temperment testing along with a conformation title in order to get their championship. This way, just like the herding breeds that can't herd, we also won't see aggressive companion dogs. :rolleyes:

bridey_01

06-28-2005, 09:45 PM

Exactly right. It's hard for the real breed enthusiasts to watch their breed become popular and in doing so become something completely different. Australian farmers wouldn't even RECOGNISE what passes for a "kelpie" in the show ring. Yet those same farmers offer thousands to buy my kelpie, which would be laughed out of the ring if i ever tried to show her!

Babyblue5290

06-28-2005, 09:52 PM

How do toy breeds keep fleas off people? Do they eat them?

It was in the days of queens/kings in the REAL old day. The person (usually higher ranked people) would carry these small dogs around so the fleas would go on the dog and not on the person. I don't know if it worked all that well, but that's what they did. :rolleyes:

CreatureTeacher

06-28-2005, 10:00 PM

Just to put in my two cents...

I find it decidedly hypocritical to advocate the breeding of a pure-bred dog above that of a mix. I've volunteered in two shelters in two states over a period of several years, and I guarantee that shelters see "responsibly bred" dogs just as often as those horrible, ghastly mutts. There are too many dogs and not enough homes. There will not be any more homes if all the shelter dogs magically turn into finished champions.

And the fact that people seem to miss is that because of their genetic variability, mixed breed dogs tend to be healthier throughout their lives because they aren't sucseptible to the same genetic diseases that pure-breeds are. Selective breeding for specific desired traits has opened our dogs up to nearly debilitating genetic flaws that would not have developed if variety had been maintained in the gene pool. Because of what we've done, pure-bred dogs are far more likely to develop nasty mortal illness and psychologically rooted behavioral problems. Selective breeding alone is to blame for the malformations advocated by people who claim to "love the breed" while they continue to instill the very traits that are KILLING THEIR DOGS. So many dogs are in chronic pain because of structural defects implanted through selective breeding. So many don't have control of their own minds for the same reason. There are thousands of dogs that are completely miserable because of the shapes we've forced their bodies to take, both externally and internally.

There is such a thing as a "reputable breeder". There are breeders who genuinely care about their dogs and want to share their love for their breeds with other responsible owners. But these breeders produce the minority of the pure-bred population, simply because a BYB will produce more pups faster. By attempting to keep the gene pool pristine, we're just plunging these poor animals deeper into genetically recessive misery.

I love every dog. I've never met one I didn't want to take home. I've never met one who couldn't learn. But I've met enough mutts and enough pure-bred dogs to understand that the mutts have it easier, gene-wise. I think this goes far beyond the ethics of individual breeders. It comes down to entities such as kennel clubs and the FCI who promote the breeding of animals for "desirable" physical characteristics and use social pressure to make the general population believe that breeding mutts is "wrong" and ethical breeders only breed pure animals. They've succeeded in convincing us that mutts are inferior. Even the term "pure-bred" implies that mixed dogs are lesser individuals. Nothing chaps my ass like listening to someone list off their 30 finished champions who all died of liver failure at the age of 7. But gosh, were they pretty! :rolleyes: Very little demonstrates mankind's selfish narcissism quite like the dog breeding industry. The extreme physical circumstances that dogs are forced into by birthright can kill them. But that's okay, because it's cute.

I'm stepping off my soapbox. But the bare bones are here: stagnant genetics are responsible for more pain in more dogs than we'll ever comprehend. There's no reason to expose innocent animals to this. Our only excuse, which we've covered up with layers and layers of justification, is that we want to perpetuate our control in making an ever more "perfect" dog.

While the dogs suffer.

But at least they were cute.

BagelDog

06-28-2005, 10:12 PM

Go to the animal shelter. Look at all the dogz. Realize, that some of those dogs will die, because people like you, random breeders, no kennels, breed there dogs, and even if the homes seem good, the pups end up there. Im not calling you a bad person, saying 'people like you", I just mean backyard breeders, the ones breeding just for the fun of it, not really for any good traits. I volunteer at an animal shelter, and have for nearly 3 years, and it still sickens me to hear that people are breeding there dogs. Please think hard before you breed your dog. Puppy are cute sure, but how cute are dead puppys?

***Claps to CreatureTeachers speech***

So very very true CreatureTeacher.

bridey_01

06-28-2005, 10:17 PM

Go Creature teacher, all the things i was too frightened too out and out say.

bubbatd

06-28-2005, 11:29 PM

Emma...Amen. !!! When I bred Goldens many years ago it was for the temperment of my dogs. I was very careful to make sure my dogs had all clearances and stayed within the standards. A very well known lady within our Golden Retriever who had many Champion Goldens came up with a litter than showed problems as adults ( cancer ) she stopped breeding any dogs that may have carried the genes. This was a responsible breeder.

Ash47

06-28-2005, 11:41 PM

Good speech Emma. I agree with everything you said. Bagel, I am not a "byb." I am letting her have one litter. No more. No less. I want to bring puppies into this world that will carry on her wonderful temperament, her intelligence, and beautifully built little body. I am not going to make any money, so it is not about that at all. I am not doing this to watch the "miracle of birth." I'm not doing this because puppies are soooo cute. I am doing this because I love Chihuahuas. Never met one I didn't like. Roxy is a great example of a great dog. And I want her to pass that on.

Renee750il

06-29-2005, 12:08 AM

Emma, you need to spend more time on a soapbox ;)

My bigggest gripe with those who breed crosses is that it is so rare that it is done for a purpose other than carelessness, apathy, ignorance, cash, vanity . . . you get the idea. Those reprehensible reasons for producing pups aren't just limited to cross breeders though, they are every bit as rampant - maybe more so - in breeders of 'pure' breeds. I don't know how many times I pass signs in yards that say "AKC (fill in breed here) for sale." [shudders] You can imagine what it makes me want to do :eek:

06-29-2005, 01:07 AM

Showpug, I thought about it, and I have no argument for you because my breed's true standards are as far from that of the Chihuahua as they get. I know very little about Chis, and quite honestly I don't know much about the breeding of dogs that don't WORK. I do not, and will not breed toy breeds. I guess it's true that all they have going for them is conformation.. Again, I don't have any argument there. There is nothing else to base a breeding program around, so it is more fitting to be more critical of a Chihuahua's conformation to AKCs standard than that of a Border Collie's.

I know it's not the standard or the registry that is at fault. it is the breeders and judges. Judges start putting up the "prettiest" and flashiest dogs, and soon the entire "show world" of that breed follows suit. Greedy breeders begin to breed for what wins, and take on the standard the way most judges do, and the standard which was once pure and ideal is now distorted - and the result of that is that what might have once been a magnificent working breed is now known by the general public as something completely different.

But, those are working breeds and these are companion breeds.. I didn't have that clear in my mind when I made that post. Good luck Pro and I hope you make the right decision down the line.

casablanca1

06-29-2005, 10:35 AM

I live in a county where the cheapest house is 1000 square ft with barely a yard sold for $450,000. The cost of a dog is nothing for most people here, yet, 60% of the shelter dogs are pitt mixes. We have some very active breed rescue organizations but still, thats the numbers. I'm also near San Francisco and San Jose, both shelters have atleast 60% pitt mixes. Economics and population density really doesn't have as much of a factor that one would imagine.

The East Coast is richer and more heavily populated than the West Coast, and in my experience the mutt/purebred ratio at shelters here is much closer to 50/50 than the 3/97 you mentioned earlier.

showpug

06-29-2005, 10:36 AM

I guess the important thing is that people don't generalize. I think that breeders need to be looked at on different terms. I know many "show" breeders that won't breed a dog a certain way just because that "style" is winning at the moment. They stick to their guns. A good example of this is in the pug ring. So many people are breeding pugs too large...so large, that they barley fit on laps. Standard for pugs is 14-18 lbs...NO LARGER, but yet, we are watching pugs win in the ring at 25lbs. This is a disgrace to the breed and the show people I know, in fact the majority of them keep their dogs within standard and at the low end of it. So yes, I agree that there are the "sell out" show breeders that only want the win and don't truly care about preserving the dog they love, but on the other hand, there are the good breeders that keep the dogs best interest at heart and breed their breed to standard. I see both ways of looking at it, but I think we know for sure, that there are irresponsible show breeders, "pure-bred" breeders, backyard breeders and mixed-breed breeders. Actually...this brings something to mind. Want to see a website for puppies that I can't stand?? This website makes me so livid that it is unreal :mad: I have written them numerous statements about what they are doing, but it does not do any good. :( Here is the website...it makes me ill. Not to mention the celebrities that have purchased puppies from them. www.wizardofclaws.com T :mad: :mad:

Renee750il

06-29-2005, 10:40 AM

Yeah, we've had a couple of rants about the Whizzers of Claws before :rolleyes:

Athe

06-29-2005, 12:35 PM

BRAVO Creature teacher! BRAVO.

I have been working with show people and so called "purebred" breeders for most of my life. I have a hard time accepting the fact of what they are doing is right...I call purebred dogs inbred mixed breeds cause that is exactly what they are. You just take different breeds mix them, inbreed for a few generations and there you have a purebred. :D

Have you read this:
http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics/bragg.html#toc

THE SHOW RING has also been largely responsible for the decline of breed purpose, working ability and temperament in a great many breeds, notably sporting breeds, herding breeds and sleddog breeds. The quick and easy gratification of blue ribbons and gilt trophies all too readily supplants the hard work necessary to preserve and advance canine working abilities. If our dog breeds are to conform to the ideal of "a sound mind in a sound body" (as advocated by the proponents of the Advanced Registry), the fancy must find some way of ensuring that less dog-breeding takes place along the lines of least resistance and cheap gratification, so that greater attention is paid to working characteristics, temperament and trainability. A balanced outlook on breed identity must be restored by integrating canine function with the ideals of conformation, beauty and "type." All kinds of dogs, toy breeds not excepted, can perform useful functions and respond to training. Those aspects of the fancy should be accorded an importance at least fully equal to that of type and conformation instead of being regarded as merely optional. For example, breeding and exhibition of utility breeds such as gundogs and sleddogs merely for sale as pets and for dog shows, with no effort made to maintain and advance their working capabilities, is an obvious abuse which must lead inevitably to mental and physical degeneracy in those breeds.

showpug

06-29-2005, 02:42 PM

BRAVO Creature teacher! BRAVO.

I have been working with show people and so called "purebred" breeders for most of my life. I have a hard time accepting the fact of what they are doing is right...I call purebred dogs inbred mixed breeds cause that is exactly what they are. You just take different breeds mix them, inbreed for a few generations and there you have a purebred. :D

Have you read this:
http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics/bragg.html#toc

Could not agree with the above link more. As I have said in the past, their needs to be more that goes in to obtaining a championship. I feel working/herding/sporting dogs should have to prove that they are capable of their purpose along with winning in the conformation ring in order to aquire their championship.

As far as the toy dogs go I don't feel this way. I do think that they should have to pass temperment tests to prove that they would make a suitable companion before breeding, but to force a toy into a working dog completley takes away from it's sole purpose and does exactly what the above statement claims you should not do...destroy the purpose of which a dog was bred. I believe that toy dogs can serve many different functions...some make great watch dogs, some make great ratters, and some make awesome obedience and agility dogs, but I also want to keep toys the way they are. Sweet lap-warming companions :) The extra capabilities are great, but that is not want toys were bred for originally companionship should be first and foremost on the list for these guys.

I think too often toy dogs get dissregarded as having no purpose or job. Companionship is a job and it is one of the most powerful jobs of all in the K9 world. I hold toys on a pedestal for their ability to change lives and comfort human beings. They are the little guys that are always there, waiting at our feet, looking up, just waiting to be loved. These dogs are very close to my heart for the impact they have made on my life :)

sabacu

06-30-2005, 05:59 AM

Maybe you need to advertise on (link edited out - Mod)
it is new but promising

bridey_01

06-30-2005, 07:17 AM

I agree with Athe about the pure breeds issue. I think too many people forget that pure breeds were originally mixbreeds.

07-01-2005, 08:48 PM

OT, but Wizard of Claws makes my blood boil... Nothing but a bunch of greeders, looking to make a buck (Or $6000) at the expense of their animals. :mad:

07-01-2005, 09:02 PM

Could not agree with the above link more. As I have said in the past, their needs to be more that goes in to obtaining a championship. I feel working/herding/sporting dogs should have to prove that they are capable of their purpose along with winning in the conformation ring in order to aquire their championship.

As far as the toy dogs go I don't feel this way. I do think that they should have to pass temperment tests to prove that they would make a suitable companion before breeding, but to force a toy into a working dog completley takes away from it's sole purpose and does exactly what the above statement claims you should not do...destroy the purpose of which a dog was bred. I believe that toy dogs can serve many different functions...some make great watch dogs, some make great ratters, and some make awesome obedience and agility dogs, but I also want to keep toys the way they are. Sweet lap-warming companions :) The extra capabilities are great, but that is not want toys were bred for originally companionship should be first and foremost on the list for these guys.

I think too often toy dogs get dissregarded as having no purpose or job. Companionship is a job and it is one of the most powerful jobs of all in the K9 world. I hold toys on a pedestal for their ability to change lives and comfort human beings. They are the little guys that are always there, waiting at our feet, looking up, just waiting to be loved. These dogs are very close to my heart for the impact they have made on my life :)
I absolutely agree with your post, and also with the link Athe posted.

My "issue" with toy breeds is that (Making a generalization again, not directed at anything in particular) they are not held to very high standards, when it comes to temperament. As long as their conformation is good, and their temperament is stable, they are acceptable. And they ARE, because a very wide variety of personalities exist and most make for outstanding companions.
When I go to a dog show, every toy dog I meet acts VERY different. Comparing that to when I interact with herding dogs, and all share the same personality characteristics. It doesn't matter a lot if a Maltese acts like a Pekignese - both serve as excellent companions. However, if a Labrador had the temperament of a Doberman, it would be removed from the gene pool.

I'm certainly not bashing toys, as I am owned by a hilarious little Papillon, I just think that some of the toy breeders could stand to adopt some of the working dog breeders' fixation on breeding for an ideal, breed-specific temperament. (Unfortunately, very little detail is given to temperament in the breed standard and that leaves a lot open for unscrupulous breeders)

bubbatd

07-01-2005, 09:40 PM

Let's face it... some of us love large breeds....some small. I don't put down any breed. I've never had a small breed, but obviously they are great !

Ash47

07-01-2005, 10:42 PM

Rip,
You are very right. Toys aren't held to very high expectations. I am guessing it is because they are cute and not a lot of people really care what their temperament is?? Well, a lot of small dogs I have met are extremely snappy (more so than big dogs). But Chihuahuas are just wonderful. As Roxy has been growing, I have been very curious about the Chihuahua. I already had done research on the breed, but quickly discovered that you can only find out what the breed is like if you talk to several who have actually owned the particualr breed. All my life, I had heard, "Chihuahuas are snappy. They are the meanest small dog you can get." I just went along with it, not knowing that they had no clue what they were talking about.
As I was researching toy breeds, I took a test and was told that the Bichon was the ideal breed for me. Well, I continued researching and fell head over heels in love with the Chi. I do think that that the Chihuahua's temperament is very overlooked in dog shows. Yes, they are cute. But they are wonderful little dogs with excellent temperaments. I have only ever met one Chi that was snappy. And she was very sick and not trained at all, so she had reason. All other ones have been perfect little ladies and gentlemen.
To sum it all up: Toy breeds are not judged on their temperaments for the most part, they are judged mostly on looks and looks alone. Based on my research (spending ample time with small and large dogs), small dogs generally have a worse attitude than that of the "big dogs." They are cute and tiny and people love that. Big dogs intimidate humans, therefore we want them to be more submissive than small dogs so that we know we have nothing to worry about. Because even if a small dog is mean, it can't do as much damage as a large dog with attitude.

Khristine

07-02-2005, 12:05 AM

these forums freak me out! making me never wanting to come back..

i was going to ask a question about breeding, but i see how touchy this subject is on these forums. When you are looking for an experienced mentor.. how do you go about without hundreds of you people bashing one another?

the most experienced breeders have to start somewhere im guessing. Good luck to you Pro!! goodbye Chazhound Forums.

gapeach

07-02-2005, 12:09 AM

Please don't go Khristine, yeah you do have to start somewhere. There are people here, experienced who can help. We are just very passionate about breeding for the right reasons!

07-02-2005, 02:43 PM

Of course people have to start somewhere. My problem is people who start breeding for the wrong reasons, without knowing what they are doing. I plan on breeding in the future, but I wouldn't dream of doing it now, when I don't know a ton about it and when I am not in close contact with other experienced Border Collie breeders. Should I have a question, they would help. That's the point of having a mentor, they help you and teach you.

I do have to say, people on this dog forum (and others) are very quick to judge when the subject of breeding comes around. It's made me take my questions about breeding to RL breeders that I know, just because I get exhausted with the constant suspicion, judging and nit-picking done on forums, especially by people who do not know or understand my breed.
Personally Pro, if you wanted answers without the bashing, I would have gone to a dog show and gotten acquainted with a responsible, experienced Chihuahua breeder (or someone who knows one) and sent my questions to them. JMO.