Help with nail-clipping issue

[Gempress]

We took Voodoo to the groomer to get his nails clipped for the first time. We never bothered before because he naturally wears his nails down very short. Still, I took a lot of pains to regularly handle his feet and nails, so he wouldn't mind somebody messing with his paws.

So anyway, Hubby was holding him. The groomer was lifting up his paws and examining his nails. No problem. Well, as soon as Voodoo felt the pressure of the actual clipper on his nail, he turned his head and took a snap at the groomer! :yikes:

No growl, yipe or nothing. Just a silent snap. Hubby was holding Voodoo, so he didn't connect with the groomer. But the groomer (young guy, pretty inexperienced) was very unnerved, and we were just as shocked as he was. Voodoo has NEVER threatened to bite. The guy elected not to finish the nail clipping. We didn't blame him--I figured that being muzzled and held down was not a good way for Voodoo to experience his first nail clipping.

How do I desensitize Voodoo to nail clippers? His nails were always too short before, so I was never able to practice. Even now, they're still pretty short---we only decided to have his done since Zeus was getting his clipped too. He's fine with everything except feeling the actual pressure of the cilpper. I don't know how to teach him about that. Help!

[darkchild16]

Maybe try a dremel? So that there isnt the pressure?

[adojrts]

You could clicker train it, and only take the very tip.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I agree, I suggest a dremel.

Any dog who has not had nails clipped on a regular basis since puppy hood should be EXPECTED TO BITE. I am shocked that any tech anywhere would attempt to cut nails on any dog who was not at least on a table noosed. The bad part of this equation is that VooDoo controlled this situation. By his reaction, he STOPPED the action which he did not like, so next time the clippers come out, you can expect the exact same response. If you persist, you can expect the response to escalate. So be prepared.

If you choose to try a dremel, this is a good website to learn about how to do it.

HOW TO DREMEL NAILS (http://homepages.udayton.edu/~merensjp/doberdawn/dremel/dremel.html)

[Gempress]

You could clicker train it, and only take the very tip.

How would I go about doing that? Voodoo knows what a clicker means. But what exactly should I mark, and how do I work him up to that point to allow the clippers?

I agree, I suggest a dremel.

Any dog who has not had nails clipped on a regular basis since puppy hood should be EXPECTED TO BITE. I am shocked that any tech anywhere would attempt to cut nails on any dog who was not at least on a table noosed.

I think I will use a dremel next time. But I'd still like to try and desensitize Voodoo to the clippers. I don't like knowing that there's a benign situation that makes Voodoo want to bite. I'd rather try to fix the issue than avoid it, if possible.

But the obvious inexperience of the groomer has me wondering. I took a look at Voodoo's nails, and the quick is pretty close to the tip. I'm wondering if the guy was gutting too close. I know the tech hit the quick twice with Zeus that day---poor dog! Needless to say, that groomer is not going to be clipping their nails any more.

I'm going to try tonight with my own pair of clippers. And I didn't think about what you said, Red....about how the snap got the groomer to stop and reinforced it. That's not good. If I do try, I'll be sure to follow through and finish the nail.

[RedyreRottweilers]

I would not be putting a clipper on his nail for some time. I would spend quite a bit of time making clippers good. Hold/show clippers while you prepare all meals. Hold/show clippers while you do ANYTHING that VooDoo finds pleasant. Work up to touching nails, and treating for each touch.

Make SURE when you get ready to actually clip that you are PREPARED for any reaction from your dog. I like to work things positively, but I have used a double end snap and snubbed dogs to chain link fencing to finish a job before. Also make sure you have a very sharp blade in the clipper. Dull blades can put more pressure on a nail and can be uncomfortable. And it certainly IS possible that the groomer had the quick and that is what caused the reaction.

I love the dremel tho, and rarely use clippers any more.

Good luck. :D

[Gempress]

I would not be putting a clipper on his nail for some time. I would spend quite a bit of time making clippers good. Hold/show clippers while you prepare all meals. Hold/show clippers while you do ANYTHING that VooDoo finds pleasant. Work up to touching nails, and treating for each touch.

I'll do that, thanks!

[elegy]

Any dog who has not had nails clipped on a regular basis since puppy hood should be EXPECTED TO BITE.

???

no way, man. show stress and discomfort or try to get away, but bite?? not in my world. that is NOT acceptable.

anyway, as to the OP, just desensitize the same way you'd desensitize him to anything else- go slowly, one babystep at a time, and use valuable rewards for each tiny step. since handling feet is not a problem, you're a big step ahead of the game.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Definitely not acceptable, but I would EXPECT it, and PREPARE FOR IT, from any adult dog who has not been trained from an early age to tolerate nail cutting.

Perhaps I should have said TRY to bite, not bite.

JMO of course. :D

[Debi]

Red...I'm wondering if the dremel noise is ever a problem for you? we also have 'nail issues'. I've done it all...for a long time..the advice to get him familiar with the clippers, and alot of touching paws, etc. well...Hamlin loves the clippers, just not on his nails. I agree about reinforcing a big problem if you fail, so I've let off for a spell. however, his nails need done. so...do you just turn on the dremel and let in run, here and there, to get them used to the noise? I was actually considering having him sedated at the vet. not put under...just something to calm him. I'm not even sure there is such a thing, I just remember having a teaspoon of liquid that I gave to my daughter when she was 4 and had to have dental work. it didn't make her tired or 'out of it', just not the least bit stressed. hey..I'm like most...I don't like the rely on drugs, but it's been a thought. I don't want to muzzle him, but I also agree that I'd never trust him not to bite a stranger over this. thanks..

[Melissa_W]

Kai was not used to having his feet handled or nails clipped when we first got him and it took a couple months to desensitize him. If Voodoo is already used to you handling his feet, I would start out by handling his feet while the clippers are beside you and giving plenty of praise and treats. You can then go to hold the clippers in your other hand while handling his feet. Then, just touch his paw with the clippers and give plenty of praise and treats. It may take a while to get past this stage. Once he is used to that, I would hold the clippers as if you were going to cut, but don't do it. Once he is used to that, I would apply light pressure, but don't cut. Make sure you do not try this too soon and give tons of praise and food. The first time I worked up to actually cutting one of Kai's nails, I clipped off the very tiny tip and then gave him a jackpot, praise, and ended the session. I only clipped a tiny part off of one nail per day for while. Then I worked up to doing one paw at a time. Now, I can do all four paws at any time, and he doesn't bat an eyelash.

[elegy]

I was actually considering having him sedated at the vet. not put under...just something to calm him. I'm not even sure there is such a thing, I just remember having a teaspoon of liquid that I gave to my daughter when she was 4 and had to have dental work. it didn't make her tired or 'out of it', just not the least bit stressed. hey..I'm like most...I don't like the rely on drugs, but it's been a thought. I don't want to muzzle him, but I also agree that I'd never trust him not to bite a stranger over this. thanks..

the problem with drugging dogs to do their nails is that drugs can lower a dog's inhibitions and make them *more* likely to bite. i would never ever agree to trim nails on a drugged dog without a muzzle.

why would you not muzzle him? it is not going to hurt him, a lot of times it's a nice big fat distraction for the dogs that gets their attention off the nail trimming, and it keeps everybody safe.

what have you used to reward him for allowing you to mess with his feet? is there a better reward you can use? is there a fantastic out of this world reward? is he food-motivated enough that someone can feed him wonderful fantastic rewarding food items while you trim one nail, and then quit?

[RedyreRottweilers]

I start with the dremel by rubbing the puppy with the body of it all over while feeding them treats.

Next I turn it on and rub them with the butt end of it while feeding them treats. Most of them almost immediately enjoy the vibration and ignore the noise of it, but I do spend time building positive associations with the dremel, along with the sound and vibration of it.

:D

[RedyreRottweilers]

Try BRAUNSCHWAIGER. It is a soft liver spread. I find it at my grocery store where the cold cuts, bologna, franks, and etc are kept.

My dogs will do ANYTHING for this stuff. It is super for giving pills/meds, and you can take some on your finger, open the dog's mouth, smear it on the roof of the mouth, and have several seconds of great serious distraction.

Not bad on a Ritz with a nice white wine for yourself either. ;)

[angelzeus]

first of all your dog most likely sensed that the groomer was nervous and made him nervos be he should have been put on the grooming table were he would have been more secure. also haveing you there most likely also made him very nervous i would sechudle with another groomer more experienced and i would leave when they do it and let the groomer with more experince tell you whats best good luck

[Debi]

I'll try that Red. that's part of my problem, Ham isn't food motivated at all. I know you won't believe this, but when I give him a treat...he just drops it immediately. I keep thinking if only he'd give it a minute to taste it. lol peanut butter..hot dogs..roast beef..he's a real odd one when it comes to food. only eats his dinner, and when we eat he goes upstairs to sleep. luckily for me, he loves praise.....except when it's nail clipping time. he's such a baby, lets me do anything, that's why this is most frustrating.

I don't have any real problem putting a muzzle on him, I just wanted to do it without. obviously I would use a muzzle to keep anyone safe. :)

[Saintgirl]

I am so sorry that Voodoo had an awful experience. I agree that the lack of experience displayed by the groomer will effect Voodoo for the next time that you decide to have it done professionally. The thing that bothers me the most about how it was handled is that when you pay someone to do your dogs nails they should be confident and experienced enough to control the situation.

Several dogs who come into have their nails clipped will snap or bite. That is why they are on the table, noosed, and held in a proper way as to not get biten. When a dog snaps at me, I remain calm and in control. Once the dog discovers that the display of innapropriate behavior will not get them what they want (no nail clipping) they usually calm down after the first paw.

We very rarely muzzle as it usually escalates the level of stress the dog is experiencing. We want the entire experience to be as positive for the dog as possible. Usually when the dog is snapping it is because they are frightened. When they are muzzled they often become more stressed because they feel they have lost a form of defence. This is not to say that we do not ever use a muzzle, because that would be just down right stupid in some cases. But it is only used in extreme situations.

Another thing we do in situations where the dog is showing signs of stress is to take the dog without the owner present. Sometimes the owners reinforce nervous behavior inadvertantely by saying something like "Good boy" when the dog is actually showing signs of unease. So in actuality the dog is being told good boy for showing signs of nervousness. We NEVER take a dog without the owner being 100% understanding of why their behaviors may actually increasing their dogs tendencies.

For example, we have a poodle who comes in every couple of weeks who will be the snappiest little thing with his owner in the room. The second he starts to react, she is telling him "oh what a good boy, just be a good boy" and the second he gets positive reinforcement for his reactive behavior it escalates. However, the second we put the poodle on the table without his owner present he is the most awesome little fella. Over and done with in a matter of a few minutes- not showing signs of stress at all! The second that we hand him back to his owner he resorts back to his snappy old self.

I wouls say that the groomer probably clipped a little close to the quick and it made Voodoo nervous. If Voodoo has never had a problem with you clipping his nails in the past, then continue to make the situationa fun one for him, not rewarding his silly behavior. The next time you venture out to have them professionally done, make sure the person behing the clippers has tons of experience and will be able to handle the situation in the correct manner.

I know alot of people use the dremel, but I personally don't use one. I have in the past, but I find clippers so much faster!

[Gempress]

Update:

Last night, I walked around the with clippers like Red suggested. Voodoo was relaxing on the couch, so I sat next to him and petted him the with the clippers. Not a problem. I ran the clippers over his feet (he was laying on his side), and even slipped a nail into the guillotine hole. Still no problem.

Well, I got brave. I braced myself---and tipped the nail. Nothing. He flicked an ear, and that was it. So I called him off the couch, put him in a stand, and started clipping. He just stood there, leaned against me and wagged his tail. I did both his front feet without a problem.

So yeah. I have a feeling that groomer hit the quick. Poor Voodoo. But thanks for all the advice anyway!

[lizzybeth727]

I have a feeling that groomer hit the quick. Poor Voodoo.
Yeah, it's possible that the groomer hit the quick. I'd say, though, that it's more likely that Voodoo just was very stressed being at the groomer's and being handled by a stranger, and then if the groomer was nervous, Voodoo would've picked up on that and that would've made it worse. The grooming salon is extremely stressful for most dogs, I used to work at one and it was sad how nervous the dogs were. Even dogs who had never been to that salon got scared as soon as they walked in the door, I think they just picked up on the nervous energy of all the other dogs.

And while hitting the quick when clipping nails is really unfortunate, it's fairly common among groomers and vets - they have to clip far enough so that the owner is happy, and that's hard to do.

[DanL]

Has anyone seen that new dremel type of thing that has a hole you put the nail into? I forget the name but I saw a commercial for it- it looked like a cool idea.