Doberman vs. GSD

[PWCorgi]

In general, what are the differences between the two breeds?

TIA :)

[AgilityPup]

Well, I've owned both.., But don't really remember the Doberman... The main differences would be...

Dobes don't shed as bad, really... They don't have a tail to knock stuff over... That stuff.... But sorry, I'm not really any help... *shrugs*

[PWCorgi]

Thanks AP :)

I'm actually looking more for temperment, behavior, etc. than physical differences :)

[corgipower]

I've had limited experience with dobes, but from what I've seen, the dobes tend to be serious when in public, while privately they are absolute goofs.

The GSD is a lot less concerned with his public image. The GSD tends to be more object oriented while the dobe is handler oriented (The GSD wants his toy, his food, his bed, etc. The dobe wants his person.)

I think that GSD's typically are higher energy, not that dobes are low energy

Are you talking for pet quality or working in terms of doing protection? They have very different working styles. The GSD's are more forgiving of handler mistakes.

[AgilityPup]

hehe, I fighure that'd be what you wanted to know.. Sorry, I'm of no help. lol

[PWCorgi]

Are you talking for pet quality or working in terms of doing protection?
Pet quality :)

[noludoru]

GSD - fuzzy.

Dobe - cutest thing on earth.

I'll leave real answers to the smart people. :D

[ACooper]

Well you have the 'goof balls at home' part RIGHT! LOL.......but I bet GSDs are too :)

Dobes DO shed, and they do it all the time. I am sweeping up little black hairs ALL THE TIME! It is NOT a food quality issue.........Orson eats VERY good quality and is healthy with a shiney coat and healthy skin. They just shed, period.

GSDs......better in many types of climates. Dobes....DO NOT tolerate the cold well at all. They are single coated and I know Orson shivers inside the house at night with no blankie, LOL

Both highly intelligent, easily trainable dogs...........loving, loyal, handsome (dobes more handsome..........hehehhe)

[RD]

I honestly think Dobes shed just as much as GSDs, you just don't have the undercoat issue. I was expecting them not to shed a lot and I was surprised that they do leave a trail of little black hairs wherever they've been.

I haven't lived with either breed but in my limited experience, GSDs are responsible. I don't know how else to describe them. They're not exceptionally silly as adults, though I've met some that are over-the-top affectionate/exuberant and some that are extremely serious, most hang somewhere in between. I find Dobermans are more goofy and playful as adults, and far more "velcro" than the sheppies.

Corgipower's comment about GSDs being more object oriented seems about right to me.

I think both are really high-energy, people-oriented breeds with a strong work ethic. Love 'em both!

[Rosefern]

The GSD is a lot less concerned with his public image. The GSD tends to be more object oriented while the dobe is handler oriented (The GSD wants his toy, his food, his bed, etc. The dobe wants his person.)

Then you've never met Tigger and Rover. :D

I've never seen two dogs (that aren't in a sport, mind you) that are more handler-oriented.

-Rosefern

[corgipower]

Then you've never met Tigger and Rover. :D

I've never seen two dogs (that aren't in a sport, mind you) that are more handler-oriented.

-Rosefern

well, there's always an exception;)

but having had four GSD's and having been close friends with a dobe breeder was where i was speaking from. my gsd's were very bonded to me, but once they had their toy, it was like "i got what i came for, i'll see ya later."

[Psyfalcon]

The GSDs I've met (my grandmother had several) are not overly fawning. They will not follow you to the bathroom, and may actually let you move into another room without them following. I've heard that this would be very unusual for a Dobe.

Double coats= necessity if you want to be active in the cold and rain.

Single coats are better if you want to be able to stay out of the rain, or use them as a bed warmer (more heat escapes to the human!)

[ACooper]

The GSDs I've met (my grandmother had several) are not overly fawning. They will not follow you to the bathroom, and may actually let you move into another room without them following. I've heard that this would be very unusual for a Dobe.
Double coats= necessity if you want to be active in the cold and rain.

Single coats are better if you want to be able to stay out of the rain, or use them as a bed warmer (more heat escapes to the human!)


It is for the dobes I know as well. Orson LITTERALLY MUST be touching us as much as possible. If he is not able to squeeze in and lay with us.........he will lay at our feet TOUCHING them in some way, LOL

But remember......THAT is what they were bred for in the first place, Personal Protection, not GUARD DOG........but a BODY GUARD. So it is in their make up to want to keep you close enough to 'keep an eye' on you at all times :)

[PWCorgi]

Thank you for the information everybody :D

[fillyone]

Dante at 3.5 is still goofy and *Peeking under my desk* spends 99% of his time in the same room as me.

[SizzleDog]

I agree with ACooper and corgipower - Dobes are the quintessential bodyguards. It's what they were created for, it's what they live for.

Dobes = less coat, no tumbleweeds of hair! But it's a double edged sword, some Dobermans need winter protection since their coat does not naturally provide it. And if you've never had a Doberman Hair Splinter in the sole of your foot before... you. have. been. warned. ;)

I want a good GSD someday, but IMO it's easier to find a good dobe than it is to find a good GSD... the fault of the exaggerated show type I think. I don't want a GSD as long as a limo with its butt dragging on the ground, but at the same time I don't want an uber-working line dog descended from generations of podium dogs. Finding the happy medium has proved to be quite a challenge.

Now, if I was looking for a good dobe... that's relatively easy! ;)

[Sapphire-Light]

I think dobes are more serius in public with strangers than the GSD.

Sadly 90% of the medium or large sized mixed dogs here are GSD mixed with dobe :( + unknow genes

[MaryAndDobes]

While I own / breed Dobermans, I train with a GSD breeder / owner / trainer. Consequently, there are a lot of GSDs in her classes as they are often her puppies and their owners.

It *seems* that you can drill a GSD for a lot longer than a Doberman. The GSDs don't seem to mind doing the same exercise over and over, while the Doberman is like I did it 3 times, I got it right, let's move on. The Doberman gets bored. The Doberman is a thinking breed, often described as not blindly obedient. They say that it is one of the reasons that police forces don't use them much these days - that the Doberman is not going to run into a burning building because you tell it to, it's going to stop and think h'mmm, that doesn't seem safe, how else can I accomplish this task? While other breeds will do as told because they were told. I see the GSDs in class to be like that - they do what they are asked, while the Doberman tries to put a new spin on exercises. I just don't see the sense of humour (usually) in the GSDs that I see often that I do in Dobermans. They make fun of my Dobermans and their "prissiness", the way they don't really want to lie down on the cold mats or in the dewy grass while the GSDs just plop down as told.

I'm not saying the Dobe is better than the GSD (they are for me, but not for everyone). I'm just commenting on some of what I see.

[Reggin]

While I own / breed Dobermans, I train with a GSD breeder / owner / trainer. Consequently, there are a lot of GSDs in her classes as they are often her puppies and their owners.

It *seems* that you can drill a GSD for a lot longer than a Doberman. The GSDs don't seem to mind doing the same exercise over and over, while the Doberman is like I did it 3 times, I got it right, let's move on. The Doberman gets bored. The Doberman is a thinking breed, often described as not blindly obedient. They say that it is one of the reasons that police forces don't use them much these days - that the Doberman is not going to run into a burning building because you tell it to, it's going to stop and think h'mmm, that doesn't seem safe, how else can I accomplish this task? While other breeds will do as told because they were told. I see the GSDs in class to be like that - they do what they are asked, while the Doberman tries to put a new spin on exercises. I just don't see the sense of humour (usually) in the GSDs that I see often that I do in Dobermans. They make fun of my Dobermans and their "prissiness", the way they don't really want to lie down on the cold mats or in the dewy grass while the GSDs just plop down as told.

I'm not saying the Dobe is better than the GSD (they are for me, but not for everyone). I'm just commenting on some of what I see.

Sounds kinda like the GSD is more dedicated in what they do? Or they have more drive?

[ACooper]

I don't think I would look at it that way Reggin.

What I got out of Mary's post is this........and please correct me if I am wrong Mary.

Think of the GSD as an intelligent soldier, but STILL as soldier that follows your every command (once trained) If the commander orders everyone to jump ship even though the ship is perfectly fine, and there was no logical reason, the GSD would do it because he was told to. (good soldier)

Now think of the Doberman as an intelligent civilian. Give him the same order to jump ship..........the ship is fine and there is nobody in the water needing saved. The doberman is going to think "why? that water is cold and you don't NEED me to jump in do you?" That's not to say he wouldn't do it..........it means he would think about it and try to figure out a better way, LOL

Dobes have dedication and drive galore.........they just like to have their own thoughts as well.

[SizzleDog]

Here's my take on what Mary said - and again, correct me if I'm wrong!

I don't think Dobermans are less dedicated or have less drive - they just have more of a sense of self preservation, they THINK things over before they obey.

Tell a non-thinking, blindly obedient dog to jump off a cliff to their deaths, and the dog will probably leap off, happy as a clam. A thinking dog (think Doberman) will look at you like you're nuts!

That is NOT to say GSDs don't think, PLEASE don't think that's what I'm trying to say!!!

The way I see it, the Doberman, being created as a personal bodyguard, understands that sometimes the handler is not making the right decision - they think for themselves in order to better do their job.

[corgipower]

While I own / breed Dobermans, I train with a GSD breeder / owner / trainer. Consequently, there are a lot of GSDs in her classes as they are often her puppies and their owners.

It *seems* that you can drill a GSD for a lot longer than a Doberman. The GSDs don't seem to mind doing the same exercise over and over, while the Doberman is like I did it 3 times, I got it right, let's move on. The Doberman gets bored. The Doberman is a thinking breed, often described as not blindly obedient. They say that it is one of the reasons that police forces don't use them much these days - that the Doberman is not going to run into a burning building because you tell it to, it's going to stop and think h'mmm, that doesn't seem safe, how else can I accomplish this task? While other breeds will do as told because they were told. I see the GSDs in class to be like that - they do what they are asked, while the Doberman tries to put a new spin on exercises. I just don't see the sense of humour (usually) in the GSDs that I see often that I do in Dobermans. They make fun of my Dobermans and their "prissiness", the way they don't really want to lie down on the cold mats or in the dewy grass while the GSDs just plop down as told.

the gsd is more biddable than the dobe ~ the gsd is more biddable than a lot of breeds. i got bored with my gsd's.

[RD]

Interesting.

I have a question about the Doberman's sense of self-preservation. If it's too strong and they're too independent-minded to take commands, wouldn't that make them difficult to manage as personal protectors? Confronting an aggressor is dangerous for the dog... I can understand a dog thinking through the consequences of a command before doing it, but too much thought leads to less action usually..

I just found those statements interesting because every Doberman I've met has been highly obedient and responsive to his/her master, very interested in pleasing their people. Very operant dogs in general, the ones I know love to experiment with training to see if something else will get a better response.. but they're very interested in cooperation with their handler. Maybe I got the wrong impression of the breed?

[Zoom]

See, I've had the opposite experience. I've had an easier time getting Dobes to do what I'm asking than GSD's...granted there was no formal training going on, this was just management stuff in daycare. I have a feeling that the overabundance of BYB dogs kind of skewed my results though. But just judging from what I handled at that job, I would take a Dobe over a GSD. Except maybe for the screaming Dobes do...eish.

[ACooper]

Interesting.

I have a question about the Doberman's sense of self-preservation. If it's too strong and they're too independent-minded to take commands, wouldn't that make them difficult to manage as personal protectors? Confronting an aggressor is dangerous for the dog... I can understand a dog thinking through the consequences of a command before doing it, but too much thought leads to less action usually..

I just found those statements interesting because every Doberman I've met has been highly obedient and responsive to his/her master, very interested in pleasing their people. Very operant dogs in general, the ones I know love to experiment with training to see if something else will get a better response.. but they're very interested in cooperation with their handler. Maybe I got the wrong impression of the breed?

I think the phrase "self preservation" only goes so far with a dobe. When it comes to his/her OWN comfort or that of the person/persons they deem THEIRS to protect.........they DO put YOU first. IE.. an aggressor trying to harm you, you needing their help in an emergency, etc...

I think Sizzle might have meant "self preservation" in the sense of not wanting to be injured needlessly, cold, wet, etc...

And absolutely Dobes are obedient when trained. They just don't want the drills/practice run into the ground, they don't want you to order them to be uncomfortable...IE: Lay down in that mud puddle, Sit/Stay in the hot sun when there is shade 2 feet away...that sort of thing. They will GLADLY sit/stay as long as you want them to, but they may move 2 feet over to be comfy while doing so, LOL, still obeying..........just with a slight adjustment.

That is where the thinking/problem solving for themselves comes in ;)

[corgipower]

Except maybe for the screaming Dobes do...eish.

Apparently you've never heard the screaming a GSD does
:yikes:

[Zoom]

Oh I have! But they didn't seem to keep it up for quite as long...or else the ones that were doing it didn't hit that "special" pitch...there's a reason I've lost some of my hearing and I'm not even 30 yet. :rolleyes:

[showdawgz]

You are aboslutely right, Mary. GSD's are soldiers and that is exactly what I want. I dont have time to deal with a Dobe's "prissyness" as you put it. I've had a few a while back and trained many but most refused to lay on the cold floor, put their butts completely down on the grass, ect. GSD's do think, but they understand the chain of command, and TRUST ME their handler to protect them and not put them in harms way. I can tell any of my dogs to jump through a burning building, and they will do it.

GSD's are IMO more handler oriented. My dogs have to be right next to me at all times (makes training the heeling so much easier), since they where little puppies. When we are out hiking or something, they would run ahead and turn right back around, circle me to make sure I'm ok, then check the perimeters again. GSD's IMO cannot be compared to any other breed, but thats because I know what I want and the GSD covers every aspect.

[PWCorgi]

Thanks to all who are participating in this discussion, I am learning so much! :)

[CelticxConnections]

I think a lot of GSDs are more object oriented, many of the ones I have meet work better if there is something to get, only dog I can think of that this doesn't hold true for would be Baron.

I know both my GSDs don't like to repeating things more than five times in a row. Baron will do it but he starts to get sloppy fast once we past five. Duke will invent new ways to do it if he doesn't just stop listening.

Baron and Duke don't feel the need to be right at my side. They want me to be around them though. Duke in particular doesn't feel the need to nudge me or lay down right next to me. Even as a puppy he hated to be picked up. Baron has moments where he likes to lean on me and be RIGHT there but most of the time he likes his space. Generally when I get a hello poke from both of them and they are off.

I agree that a GSD is less serius in public. I haven't ever noticed a differnce between Duke in public and Duke at home.

[DanL]

Sizzledog, you CAN find a good GSD, it's not that hard. You might not find one within 50 miles though, but I doubt you can find a good Dobe in that range all the time as well. It seems to me that there are more show type Dobies out there vs working dogs. There are plenty of working type GSD breeders around. If you don't want an American style dog, and you don't want a high drive over the top working line dog, then look at the German show lines. That is what Gunnar is and I think it's a nice blend of working ability and being able to lay around if that is what you are doing. He follows me everywhere I go and is never more than a few feet from me. He anticipates my moves, like in the morning, when I'm getting coffee and feeding the cat, he goes to the office and lays down, because he knows I'll be there momentarily, but he stays where he can watch me. When it's go time, he'll keep it up as long as you need him too, and if it's something he loves like playing ball, he'll outlast anyone. Climate wise- the GSD does well in the heat because of the double coat. Cold is no problem either, Gunnar loves the winter and his coat is so thick around his back legs you can't even scratch down to the skin.

I haven't had a lot of experience with Dobes, only 1 I know who is a real nice dog, has good obedience, but is a bit of a chicken when it comes to environment. In both heat and cold, he will shut down quickly. And some days, he just refuses to work, being a goofball when he's supposed to be serious. He doesn't pick up on new tasks as fast as Gunnar does. We've both been training at the same place for over a year together, and particularly when new obstacles are introduced on the agility course, Gunnar will learn the new object within a few tries, while the Dobie takes weeks to get comfortable with it. Some, he never gets, like the window jump. He can easily clear it but has a mental block when it comes to going over it.

[Renee750il]

Hmmm . . . I'm thinking maybe it has more to do with the owner's "style" than anything else, maybe?

All my Sheps - pure or mixed - have been completely owner-centric. They could give a flying flip about objects if there's a choice. They've been either right next to me or where they could see me at all times.

None of them would blindly take orders, and if they had a better way to accomplish something, they did it that way. If I asked them to do something they thought was ridiculous or pointless, they'd let me know, lol!

And, cute as Fila pups are, there is NOTHING any cuter than a GSD pup, lol!

[doberkim]

I think its a hell of a lot easier to find a good GSD than a good doberman - there are very few doberman owners that work their dogs, thoroughly health test, AND are focusing on structure. While there are many GSD breeders that care little beyond the AKC show ring, there are MANY MANY GSD breeders that work, health test, don't breed all over the place, and have structurally correct dogs. To top it off, I could have a good GSD for well under 1000, and wouldn't have to wait 2 years. CAn't say the same for a doberman- there are not a ton of dobe breeders that show AND work beyond some basic obedience for those that are interested in it, and you'd be hard pressed to find a responsible breeder letting dobes go for under 1000.

[RD]

Could someone please define what "blindly taking orders" means? I've yet to meet a dog that will take absolutely pointless, boring commands over and over, and I have worked with quite a variety of dogs, from sighthounds to Goldens to my own BCs.

I'm in agreement with Doberkim that it's really difficult to find good Dobermans. Maybe part of it is because I live out West where there aren't a lot of them, but I've been able to find decent GSD breeders within my state or neighboring states, and a pet puppy on average from one of them isn't going to run you $2000. Though I suppose it depends on what kind of GSD you're looking for - I want to see dogs that work, either in sports like Schutzhund or as police service/SAR/assistance dogs. I want good structure but I don't particularly care about wins in the ring. Maybe it's easier for me to find a GSD because I don't need a super high-drive sport dog.

[Brattina88]

IME - I find Dobes much more "intense" than GSDs. Intense is what I think of when I picture a Dobe. Hard.
To me, its almost like they're on guard at all times... which I'm not saying is a bad thing! With the GSDs I've known, they appear to act more relaxed and at times more social with new people (appear more relaxed, but are probably still on guard as well).

[Reggin]

I don't think I would look at it that way Reggin.

What I got out of Mary's post is this........and please correct me if I am wrong Mary.

Think of the GSD as an intelligent soldier, but STILL as soldier that follows your every command (once trained) If the commander orders everyone to jump ship even though the ship is perfectly fine, and there was no logical reason, the GSD would do it because he was told to. (good soldier)

Now think of the Doberman as an intelligent civilian. Give him the same order to jump ship..........the ship is fine and there is nobody in the water needing saved. The doberman is going to think "why? that water is cold and you don't NEED me to jump in do you?" That's not to say he wouldn't do it..........it means he would think about it and try to figure out a better way, LOL

Dobes have dedication and drive galore.........they just like to have their own thoughts as well.

Ok, I understand now, lol. I was a bit confused at first.

Reminds me of a documentary called "war dogs". It was about the soldiers and their dogs during the Vietnam war. There was a soldier and his dog partner walking through the woods. After a little while the dog stopped right in his tracks. The soldier kept telling his dog to move forward, but the dog refused, disobeying his command. So the soldier went ahead of the dog and as soon as he got 2 steps ahead the dog jumped in front of him and wouldn't let him go any further. The soldier closely examined the ground in front of him and discovered a trip line that led to a deadly bomb. This dog was a GSD, and if it wasn't for the dog disobeying its command, they both would have died that day. It made the hair on my back raise on end when I heard that story.

Maybe it is true that most GSDs aren't that way and do everything they are told, but this story kinda stuck out in my mind. I like both breeds. Both are amazing.

[doberkim]

Reggin, first there are always exceptions to every story about every breed of dog. So someone will always have a story of any breed to say "Well, I knew of a time when... "

Second, a highly trained dog (such as those used by the military, etc) are ALWAYS exceptions for the most part to anything, because those are not dogs that most people want to live with.

[Chikadee77]

I've never been around a lot of Dobes, but the few I've had in my training classes/or here for grooming have been silly, fun dogs to work with.

My sister has 2 Shepherds, a 3 year old female and a 12 week old male. Her husband is a police officer and their female is a drug detection dog for the police force where they live (Teller County). I believe they will also be training the male for this later on. Both are very sweet dogs, though her female is a bit more aloof and shy with strangers. The male is very goofy, but he's also pretty young too. They are both big velcro dogs, she can't even stand up without both of them doing the same and watching her intently. "Whacha doing mom? Need help with anything?" They are obsessed with her every move.

They are great with their two kids, even though the female is a police dog, though Teller County's dog training program is more geared towards good working dogs AND family dogs. Teller County's police dogs aren't nearly as aggressive as most (I should say ALL) military dogs and most of the officers of Teller county bring their dogs home at night and they live as family dogs off-duty.

[sheplovr]

Dobes are in the family, but personally I have no experience owning one ever. I feel they are a smaller boned dog, not for real intense work, their necks look like they might break easily if hit hard enough?'

GSD's from European countries with show n working lines have both beauty, and hard working abilities. Heavier boned East Shepherds with much more nervous type of drive is used alot for narcotic and bomb detecting work.

West lines I breed for are good also, but more sounder nerves, great search n rescue dogs and super companions. They bond so closely to one or the family, their r natural protectors not just to bark, but to protect!!

Yes, coats are heavier than Dobes but all dogs shed, even non shedders drop some hair, I can deal with that brushing daily 15 minutes helps alot and giving good supplements for skin n coats. I think the importing of Shepherds than American are healthier, easier to train, more close to people, yet u can show at Seiger shows and have fun, train for Shutzhund Sport that kinda comes natural for most.

A fun dog to own, breed, and train. I have had many varieties of dogs and turned to the West German Shepherd. Super temperments, never had a mean one and imported alot of them, as puppies and raised them, also as year olds and older.

[Dakotah]

wow I have learned alot from this thread.
I'm glad to cause I am looking into adopting a GSD and hopefully getting a puppy GSD in the future, if it comes down to it. I would also like a Lab pup, but thats off topic.

I have met MAYBE 2 Dobes and one I met was a male and he was the funniest dog ever but very serious when need be.
As far as GSD goes, I've met and been around one and he is a sweetheart. The lady that has him has 3 kids and that GSD follows her 2 sons around like his life depends on it and is the most loyal dog I have EVER met.
I dont think I would own a Dobe but they are stunning dogs in all aspect of the word.
GSD I would love to own and they are also stunning dogs.

I will continue to keep up with this thread since I am getting tons of info off of it as well. :D

[multiple paws]

I think both breeds are beautiful, but I prefer a good coat for outside activities.

[IcyHound]

I'll add my comment.

I've been a GSD owner for the last 7 years. I just got my Doberman.

I will agree with the fact that the Doberman is more person oriented. Nyx is already focused on us. She has already managed to figure out that she has *two* people and enjoys that fact. She likes her toys and the other dogs but she will grab a toy and come and flop on us. She can even take naps on the bed at 10 weeks because she is interested in us. She is calm and focused. Its quite fascinating in such a young dog to see that.

Nox, my GSD loves us, he adores us, he is a Velcro dog, but he is more thing oriented. Toys, the other dogs, what is happening now, let him count the cats. He is most spastic in general and he vibrates with energy. You can almost see it pouring off of him. As a puppy he'd start screaming and twitching from sheer excitement at seeing a toy.

The end result is very similar but the dogs are very different. I don't think I'll get another GSD but I can see myself with more then one Doberman.

Also the GSD BLOWS his coat. I wind up using the forced air dryer on him in an attempt to get the coat out quickly. Bleh.

[SizzleDog]

I feel they are a smaller boned dog, not for real intense work, their necks look like they might break easily if hit hard enough?'

Dobes are similar in bone and build to Malinois and Dutch Shepherds - is that to say that mals and dutchies aren't good sport dogs either?

Sorry, I hear that a lot, that my breed isn't big and thick enough to be an effective sport dog. I myself do not do bitework with my dogs, but I do take issue with people who say they're ill-suited physically do it.

[IcyHound]

For one that does not think a Doberman can be an effective working dog.

Please go here DVG America National Champion List (http://www.dvgamerica.com/champion.html) and look at the year 2005.

I happen to know that dog and that handler. My GSD and both of my mothers dog comes from him.

Doberman are excellent working dogs. Just because they are exquisitely beautiful doesn't mean they are functional. As an afghan hound owner I know that my dogs are judges on their hair quality and many people think they can not hunt just because they are lovely to look at.

The two should not be confused.

[SizzleDog]

Just because they are exquisitely beautiful doesn't mean they aren't functional.

I fixed it... :D

[RD]

I actually think the gigantic dogs are at a disadvantage compared to the medium-sized, smaller-boned and more athletic working dogs.

I also have to wonder how realistic sport work is compared to actual personal protection. In real life, is a dog honestly going to hit an assailant's conveniently extended arm every time? Are they really going to hit with such force as they would on a padded sleeve on a stationary target? :confused:

[SizzleDog]

I agree RD - just becuase a dog is small, it doesn't mean that he's not solid.

Ronin is small for a dobe - a little less than 27" at the shoulder and 70lbs... but he's a friggin' tank:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/lhartlep/Houseguests/11Feb158.jpg

[IcyHound]

I fixed it... :D

Thanks, I was trying to get it out before I went and made lunch.

[DanL]

Just like many working breeds, there are breeding lines that are better suited for work than others. Not every Doberman can or will work, but if you find the right lines, they can be hard working dogs. We had a woman come to our dog club recently with a 1 year old male Dobe. There was no way he would work. He was fearful and terrified of men. Obviously he had some issues, and obviously there was no way he had the temperament or genetics to work. He was a nice looking dog and all but the mental part just wasn't there. Another girl who I train with has a nice Dobe male who is good sized, very athletic and graceful in his movements, and probably could at least pass the evaluation test for our club.

As far as build goes, our Dane looks like a fragile dog, with her long legs and long neck and thin build. I tell you what, she is one of the strongest dogs I've ever seen. Don't let looks deceive you.

I don't see much difference between medium sized dogs like Mals and some of the GSDs, and the larger dogs like the Bouvs and the bigger GSDs at our club. The smaller dog isn't always quicker and more agile, and can't hit as hard. The male Bouv and Gunnar are both dogs who are larger, but are also fast and agile, and hit like a tank. When you hear a nice thump when one of them hits the decoy, and they drive him to the ground, you know they are hitting hard. I have yet to see the smaller GSD (who is from Czech lines and is a VERY hard dog, but is only 67lbs) or any of the mals do that.

RD, regarding your question about how a protection dog will hit vs a sport dog- a protection dog will hit the center mass of the target. In training the decoy will try and sidestep the dog, so they learn not to fly through the air (what makes a Sch dog look so dramatic), but to slow down a bit, hunker down, and then target the center of the target. That could be the middle of the back, the butt, legs, armpits, whatever is there. That's what they are trained to do. Even if an arm is hanging out, they hit center mass. There is definitely a technique to catching a dog on the sleeve when he's learning to target center mass. You need to absorb the dog into you, as you can injure the dog if you resist him. It only takes one bad catch to jam a dogs neck and put him out of protection training for good.

There are dogs that succeed in Sch who could do real protection work, but not all of them. Sch never really tests a dogs limits. Sch is a choreographed routine. Same thing every time, and the decoys are there to make the dog look good and play them up, not break them down and drive them off the field like a French Ring or PSA decoy tries to do. I would say that ANY dog who can do true protection work can do Sch with an adjustment to training methods- the stability and temperament is there in that kind of dog.

[Psyfalcon]

But for their original jobs, I think the lighter build is fine.

GSDs (after they became police/military dogs vs sheep herders) have to hit and hold. On the streets it would probably be a very good idea to take the guy to the ground. It favors size and strength to hang on.

The Dobie however, is personal protection. It would seem that for the original breeding by a tax collector, the dog would not have to hold very long, it would be first a deterrent and then allow the owner to escape. You don't need a 90lb GSD or Bouvier to create a big time distraction to the attacker.

[showdawgz]

My oldest Czech male who is nearly 70# hits very hard and can easily knock the decoy down. He moves so fast that his impact is incredible. Bigger doesnt mean stronger or more powerful.

It is MUCH harder to get a dog that does PP to move to Schutzhund than vice versa. PP dogs civil drives are way higher and would more and likely be considered "dirty" in the sport of schutzhund. Protection is not a game to these dogs. Its alot easier to give a dog a little (ie a sleeve in schutzhund) then giving them more (body suits) than to give them full range and then tell them they can only bite one specific area.

PP dogs have a wider range of personalities than schutzhund dogs. Sch dogs only need a decent prey drive to get titled. PP dogs need to be confident (either as a whole or can be over confident where they love a good fight and know they will win, and seek out a fight). Then there are sharp dogs who are always on guard (these can be great PP dogs IN THE RIGHT HANDS ONLY!!! These are not for family/home protection. They are for people with experience who know how to ease the dog's stress throughout its life. It doesnt necessarily mean they are weak nerved, its just they have a very low threshold for agression, and these dogs must be watched. It all depends on what kind of dog YOU want. And what you expect from him/her.

[DanL]

showdawgs my point on pp dogs moving to sch is based on ability only. The pp dog has the ability to do sch- it might not be easy to retrain the dog to do a bark and hold instead of a bite, and other aspects of the sport, but the overall drive and ability is there, where many sch dogs wouldn't make it in pp at all.

Bigger doesn't always mean more powerful, but bigger doesn't always mean slower either. A 90# dog moving at the same speed as a 70# dog is going to hit harder simply because of the difference in mass. It's like being hit by a linebacker instead of a defensive back.

[showdawgz]

showdawgs my point on pp dogs moving to sch is based on ability only. The pp dog has the ability to do sch- it might not be easy to retrain the dog to do a bark and hold instead of a bite, and other aspects of the sport, but the overall drive and ability is there, where many sch dogs wouldn't make it in pp at all.

Bigger doesn't always mean more powerful, but bigger doesn't always mean slower either. A 90# dog moving at the same speed as a 70# dog is going to hit harder simply because of the difference in mass. It's like being hit by a linebacker instead of a defensive back.

Ok, I understand that, and I completely agree that most Sch dogs cannot do PP.

My WG working line male (100#) is very fast and agile for his size, but my 70# male can run circles around him, not because he is smaller, but because he is very intense in all that he does, including running. It depends on the dogs drive and intensity not size. I used to think that smaller GSD's weren't powerful until I got a smaller male and realized that Czech line dogs (who tend to be smaller) do make up for their size with their agression and drive.

[DanL]

Something else I was thinking of- regarding targeting bites in PP. We actually spend a good bit of time teaching the dog to target bites on the suit. Back bites on each shoulder, middle of the back, frontal bites, leg bites. It's not so much of a run down field and bite anywhere you want, though, if a dog does bite anywhere and has a good full bite and doesn't act dirty by moving all over, that's ok. Our unfortunate decoy got one right in the butt from Gunnar last weekend, and it was a good bite and he didn't let go, and dragged him to the ground by the rear. If he was all over, biting the rear, then moving to other targets, then we'd go back to more basics to reinforce one good clean bite. Targeting is important because if you get to more advanced stages where weapons are involved, you want the dog to target the weapon hand. Doing a leg bite on a bad guy who has a knife or gun isn't going to be very productive for the dog.

[showdawgz]

I completely understand. Thats why I feel true PP dogs cannot do sch because they target areas of the body that can cause them harm instead of just focusing on a sleeve. In sch they would target the stick/whip. I learned that the hard way. I started Schutzhund with Keelo (my czech male) and realized his civil drive was to high. He has a nice full bite but when the helper went to tap him with the stick he immediately went for that arm. I dont like giving my dog only one option when it comes to biting. I dont want them to think they can only go for the arm if a dangerous situation does arise. And in all honesty, if I was in danger I could care less if my dog has a nice full grip, I want that person taken down any way they can.

[Dakotah]

what is PP?
I cant understand showdawgz or DanL post without knowing what PP is. haha.

[Zoom]

Personal Protection.

This is fascinating information...I really want to go see a trial now.

[heartofglass]

What exactly is personal protection? I keep reading that Dobermans are people-oriented because they were originally bred for that specific job, but I'm not entirely sure what it entails. Take the human bodyguard who protects a public figure from being harmed/harassed, could his/her job be done by a protection-trained Doberman?

I've never interacted with a Doberman, so I don't know what the breed's personality is like, but appearance-wise they are my favorite breed -- they're such insanely beautiful dogs!