PLEASE HELP!! Recall=Crap

[SharkBait]

Matisse is my first dog so i don't know what i should expect from him at this age...

Anyways, he's 5 months old now but I'm getting frustrated cause he's so disobedient when it comes to calling him back to me if he's off leash.

If he's with other dogs i feel a lot safer because he usually will follow them and not stray to far.

BUT i had a big scare the other week because i let him off the lead in the park, he doesn't get off that much (that might contribute to why he doesn't come back... which kinda starts the viscious cycle of me not letting him off because of that)

Anyways, he was doing ok, i called him and shouted 'come here' with some treats in my hand (usually visible to him to entice him over) and he ran over got the treat and stayed there for a couple of senconds (probably expecting more food), then ran off again to run around.

I had to shout many times to get him back when he started to follow someone and their leashed labrador.
That was ok, atleast he did come back this time.

THEN nearing the end of the park i tried to call him back but he completely just ran off, onto a car park :yikes: and i tried to catch him and it was just a whole dramatic scene... the only reason i was able to get him in the end was when he stopped to eat someone's leftover sandwich he found on the ground!!

He's grasped sit, down, leave it, stay etc so quickly so i can't understand why he won't learn perhaps the most important command!
He seems so devilish when i call him back cause he will just ignore me and knows i'm gonna run after him in order to catch him. :mad:

Can some please tell me what i'm doing wrong?? it's getting serious now. :(
Any advice at all will be appreciated!

[adojrts]

First thing, no point in getting mad or angry at your pup. It is an unrealistic expectation for him to come without some serious recall training especially with all the excitment of those distractions.
You start in the home, he is to earn EVERY meal from your hand, start with sits/downs/ etc, whatever he knows. Each time he does it, say YES! and give him a piece of kibble.
Then kneel down, have a piece of kibble in your hand, hold him by the collar, roll the kibble a few feet away (he has to see it go) and tell him to 'go get it!!'. When he comes back to you, say Yes!! and give him another piece.
Once he understands the game and he is RELIABLY coming back 100% of the time, add your recall word when he turns to come back to you, COME! YES! in a happy friendly voice. Don't hold it in your hands during the recall, you don't want him seeing or knowing that you have the food, it is produced after he comes to you. The reason for this is, you don't want the food being part of the recall cue and you don't want to lure him. He has to be 100 % successful.
Then have someone hold him across the room from you, this is called a restrained recall. Say your recall word, he should fly to you, you then reward him for nothing less than 30 seconds, giving each piece quickly. When he can do that 100 % successful, have someone take him to another room and do the same thing.
Then you take it outside to a fenced yard, if you don't then you obviously have to be careful, of where you train off leash.
When you go to the park for the first time (personally I wouldn't have a pup off leash in a park but...) make sure you go when there are no other dogs around, do your recall training. It helps if they are hungry, so I take their meals when training.
Number one rule when about recalls, Don't call your dog/pup unless you know they have the training to respond correctly. If they are moving away from you, are distracted, or are not looking at you, DON'T call them.
I use a clicker when teaching this with great results. Pups learn very quickly to keep an eye on me, no matter what the distractions are and when they look at me (even hundreds of feet away) I click and call Yes! They come flying because they know that the click or Yes means good things are coming.
But you would have to train everything that I have wrote using a clicker AND you will need more info on how to use the clicker correctly first.
Also dogs and puppies are Masters at the 'catch me game', they love it, its how dogs play. So when you are running after your pup, he thinks its a game!! Try running the other way or at an angle to him, when he starts chasing you, stop and give a reward.
I got a new jrt puppy a few months ago, she was 5 1/2 months old. She came from a kennel, wasn't leash trained and certainly had had no recall training, she also had never out free except for in a fenced yard. She also had a bad little habit, when you reached for her, she jumped back and dodged being pick up or touched.
In one week using this method and a clicker she had an awesome recall, BUT I never called her when I knew she wouldn't. I didn't want her to learn to ignore my voice. I also played many many focus games with her during that time (of course continuing on) and taught her to play the catch me game on my terms not hers.


Lynn

[Lilavati]

First thing, no point in getting mad or angry at your pup. It is an unrealistic expectation for him to come without some serious recall training especially with all the excitment of those distractions.
You start in the home, he is to earn EVERY meal from your hand, start with sits/downs/ etc, whatever he knows. Each time he does it, say YES! and give him a piece of kibble.
Then kneel down, have a piece of kibble in your hand, hold him by the collar, roll the kibble a few feet away (he has to see it go) and tell him to 'go get it!!'. When he comes back to you, say Yes!! and give him another piece.
Once he understands the game and he is RELIABLY coming back 100% of the time, add your recall word when he turns to come back to you, COME! YES! in a happy friendly voice. Don't hold it in your hands during the recall, you don't want him seeing or knowing that you have the food, it is produced after he comes to you. The reason for this is, you don't want the food being part of the recall cue and you don't want to lure him. He has to be 100 % successful.
Then have someone hold him across the room from you, this is called a restrained recall. Say your recall word, he should fly to you, you then reward him for nothing less than 30 seconds, giving each piece quickly. When he can do that 100 % successful, have someone take him to another room and do the same thing.
Then you take it outside to a fenced yard, if you don't then you obviously have to be careful, of where you train off leash.
When you go to the park for the first time (personally I wouldn't have a pup off leash in a park but...) make sure you go when there are no other dogs around, do your recall training. It helps if they are hungry, so I take their meals when training.
Number one rule when about recalls, Don't call your dog/pup unless you know they have the training to respond correctly. If they are moving away from you, are distracted, or are not looking at you, DON'T call them.
I use a clicker when teaching this with great results. Pups learn very quickly to keep an eye on me, no matter what the distractions are and when they look at me (even hundreds of feet away) I click and call Yes! They come flying because they know that the click or Yes means good things are coming.
But you would have to train everything that I have wrote using a clicker AND you will need more info on how to use the clicker correctly first.
Also dogs and puppies are Masters at the 'catch me game', they love it, its how dogs play. So when you are running after your pup, he thinks its a game!! Try running the other way or at an angle to him, when he starts chasing you, stop and give a reward.
I got a new jrt puppy a few months ago, she was 5 1/2 months old. She came from a kennel, wasn't leash trained and certainly had had no recall training, she also had never out free except for in a fenced yard. She also had a bad little habit, when you reached for her, she jumped back and dodged being pick up or touched.
In one week using this method and a clicker she had an awesome recall, BUT I never called her when I knew she wouldn't. I didn't want her to learn to ignore my voice. I also played many many focus games with her during that time (of course continuing on) and taught her to play the catch me game on my terms not hers.


Lynn

I second this. But I would also note . . . that unless its a fenced park (such as the dog park when no one was there) I would never, ever, ever have a pup that age off a leash, even if I thought they had an iron recall. Its too dangerous, and there are too many distractions. Get a long line to practice your recalls outside of a fence. Not to haul the pup back, but to keep them safe, and if all else fails to gently guide them back to you.

Also, I second the never call if you know they won't come. I don't call Sarama if I even suspect she won't come. I find some other way to get her to me (Touch!) usually works, since is an easy trick and fun.

Also, read the section about emergency recalls . . . this is something you want to train . . . its the last ditch, dear-god-no, recall.

[adojrts]

Lilavati
Agreed, I wouldn't have a pup loose either in a park. I put that in there, but maybe should have made it very clear lol. Or at the very least put a very long line on them. And not with any strange dogs around..........one grab, one shake, one dead pup. Yes that is a worst case scenario but it can happen, socalizing a pup has been done so carefully. (of course that is for the benefit of the OP, not you Lilavati).

Lynn

[SharkBait]

Whoa... thank you guys so much. I've been hearing completely the wrong thing then from my neighbour and friends, they encouraged me to let Matisse off leash more often so we could practice. But atleast now i won't feel pressured to let him free!

I appreciate your advice adojrts, it's v helpful and i shall start training tommorrow! ( i would today, but its 11.30 pm here in the UK. And Lilavati, thanks for your input too :)

Lilavati- what is this 'touch' thing you speak of?

Adojrts- what kind've focus games do you do? And you know that last thing you said about playing the 'catch me' games, how can you get your dog to do this (play one your terms?)

I enjoy training Matisse, he's recently learned 'Leave it..' 'ok!' and he responds so well to it. I guess thats the collie part of him coming through, but when he's being a stubborn wee thing, that must be his terrier side lol.

I really was desperate so, again, thanks guys. :)

[houndlove]

I'll talk about "touch" because I am a huge fan. A "touch" or "target" command is where you teach a dog to touch something--an object or your hand or your knee or whatever--with his nose or paw, on command.

I have taught both dogs a few different kinds of targeting, and the one I get the most mileage out of is "Here!" which is where they touch their noses to my open palm. I do sometimes use it for recall, though mostly I use it to regain Conrad's focus and attention when we're on walks because he's reactive and gets way overstimulated. Giving him the "here" command brings him back down to earth, gives him a job to do, and lets him earn a reward for doing something very easy and confidence-building. But out in the yard if they're playing and being a little naughty, I can "here" and hold my palm out and they both come shooting over to me like rockets to touch my palm with their wet little noses. It's extremely useful.

A good targeting behavior can also be used to teach heeling, or any new behavior that involves the dog moving in to a certain position. Where the dog's nose goes, the body follows.

[SharkBait]

Ah i see... sounds useful! :D

So how do i go about teaching Matisse this?
Hold out my palm, bump his nose saying 'touch/here' at the same time and give him a treat? (to begin with).

[protodog]

To teach "touch," I've always started with a new object that the dog will want to sniff and to investigate. In my case, I use a ball-like pool toy I found at Walgreens stuck onto the end of a wooden spoon. You can be creative. :D I act all excited and then show the toy to the dog, placing the toy near the dog's nose but not actually touching it. The dog will naturally want to sniff the toy and while doing so will usually bump the toy with her nose. (It doesn't matter that the touch of the nose to the toy is accidental.) As soon as the dog touches the toy with her nose, I click and produce a treat for the dog. I don't show the dog the treats ahead of time because I want the dog to focus on the new object, not the treats.

The dog will want to know what she did to earn the click and the treat. I hold the toy back in front of the dog's nose again and wait. The dog will try to repeat her previous behavior because she will want to earn another click and treat. As soon as she touches the toy, I click and treat again. Once the dog figures out the game (that touching the toy with her nose leads to the click and treat), I add the word "touch" when I put the toy near the dog's nose. After the dog is doing really well touching on cue, I start to move the toy farther away from the dog's nose so that she has to reach more to get to it. Once the dog has gotten really good at touching the toy when I have it over her head, on the ground, or several feet away from her, then I go back and produce my palm instead of the toy along with the "touch" cue.

Most dogs like "touch." It's fun and easy. I like teaching "touch" with a toy on the end of a stick because I can later use it to direct the dog to move in certain directions or to move away from me.

[SharkBait]

Thanks for that! You make it sound easy, so i'll give it a go later!

You said you can later get your dog to move in different directions away from you, how do you mean? Like can you point left and your dog runs to the left of you or..?

I'm getting quite excited, can't wait to try these methods out! too bad it's 2 in the morning lol.

[adojrts]

Glad it was of some use.
I use hand targets the same as how Houndlove posted, very useful.

For Focus, we play the 'watch me' game, I start all pups with a clicker (you can also mark the desired response with a Yes) I use both because I have to fade the clicker at some point......
Watch Me, at anytime your pup looks at you, say Yes and give a reward.
To start you can put a reward between your fingers and then put your fingers up between your eyes. Mark and reward everytime they look, but then you want them to make eye contact with you, therefore taking their eyes away from your fingers (much easier and more successful if you have already faded the food reward from in between your fingers). When they are doing that reliably you can say Watch Me. The goal is to have them make eye contact with you and hold it until given a release. You can use it when they are in another room and have them come flying to you. Once it has been trained it can be very useful for when your pup/dog is distracted, scared, worried etc. Ideally you would say the 'watch me' before they became upset or very distracted.
Other focus games are hide and seek, huge rewards for the pup finding you.
I play the 'keep away' at first in a fenced yard or somewhere secured. I do it when the pup is hungry and use their meal as the rewards. But I don't have their rewards visable, they are either in a fanny pack, in a bait bag or in my pocket.
I don't say a word, when the pup comes to me it is marked and rewarded. I then reach forward to touch the pup, if they moved backwards or dodge away, I don't say anything, but I turn away from them and leave the fenced in area and hide or go in the house for 5 mins. When I come back, I don't say a word to them, I kneel down and reach for them, if they don't move backwards or dodge I mark it with a click and a yes, then give one piece of kibble/reward. If they dodge away, I leave again, this time for 10 mins........and so on.
I also progress to picking them up, they get the reward after they are in my arms. When they are doing this reliably, I give it a label, I use 'settle'. Then the fun begins, I chase the pup, they chase me, they run circles around me while I pretend to be scary etc. At anytime I say 'settle', they are to allow me to touch them, put a leash on them if I want (usually to go for a 30 sec walk, then release them for more playing, this way they don't associate having a leash put as the end to all things fun and free.), or pick them up for some cuddling and rewards. While I am playing this game, I often throw in some hand targets, some fast fun obedience etc.
Some thing that I forgot to mention in the first post, when training a recall, it is best to also train a release, something like 'done'. So when your pup comes to you, click/reward/mark, before they take off, give the release word to go play.
There are also many excellent books out there that give all this and much more, they can be found at www.cleanrun.com or at www.dogwise.com

Good luck
Lynn

[OsaBarbosa]

We have a 9 month old puppy and are currently working with training her off leash. When we go to a park, we tie a long string (25 - 30 ft) to her collar so she has the ability to move around and run but if she gets too far, we can reel her back in. It seems to be working and she loves to be able to run.

[Lilavati]

I've been out of town, and they covered touch for me :-)

The way I taught Sarama, is that I just held my hand, flat and spread fingered in front of her, and waited her her to bump it with her nose. Most dogs will do this naturally. Then I clicked and treated. After a couple of repeats, I just said "Touch!" when she bumped my hand. From there on, it was really just a matter of getting her to understand that if I hold out my hand like that, no matter where, and say "touch" she needs to hit it with her nose. Its one of the easiest things to teach. Sarama picked it up in a day.

That's how I did it. I keep meaning to move it to a stick, but I haven't yet.