Contact help..

[Bear Luv]

Hi,

My dog Honey Bear and I have been doing agility for a couple of months (since june/july) and we worked really hard on contacts at first, and she had them down, and when we started trialing, she totally blew them every chance she got.

I have asked others for help, and they suggest videos and methods I have tried, and didnt work. Bear wont target. She wont stop to touch a little thing with her nose no matter how tempting the cookie lol. We have been working on 2o2o, but if she is going to fast, she wont stop. I am just looking for a good way to teach a "solid" running contact. Or maybe another method.

Also focusing! I think sometimes if she paid attention to me we would do better. If anyone has any focusing tricks, how we can get better at it. Please PLEASE let me know! I am love agility so much and really want to be able to compete with her.

Diane:D

[MafiaPrincess]

After 6 months of training you were trialling, really? I'd wonder if you didn't spend enough time on foundation behaviours honestly. But now, she knows she can get away without doing her contact behaviour. Depending what venue you trial in, (if it's not usdaa) I'd be putting her back on if she blew them, or blowing the run and just redoing contact equipment. There was a recent discussion about running contacts on the bark list. They can be fairly complicated. I'm not sure there's a tried and true method necessarily to get them, as some dogs stride wrong at times and still miss. So running contacts aren't necessarily a fix.

[Bear Luv]

Yeah I realized that we werent ready. We do NADAC. And have been going to them, not expecting to do well, mainly just to get experience under her belt. So that she isnt completely crazy, she gets distracted easily. It helps to focus. I am a JH, so entry fees arent to expensive.

Its been hard to find a method that works for her. I have decided we arent going to compete anymore for awhile. Not until we work on her contacts. I just thought I might get some good helpful tips here.

I dont expect her to do them at all, its just hard to train since my a-frame is only 6' and not regulation size.

Diane

[Brandyb]

Hi Diane,
personally, I would start right from scratch again with contact training. Begin as though you've never done it before and retrain. My girlie does somewhat of a running contact, and I use a slow command as she nears the zone - sometimes I make her wait, others I don't - depends on the obstacle and how fast we need to go. I won't say what I do is best, or even close, but it works for us, and you need to use something that works for your dog. If you're not comfortable with using a target (I never used it) then try something else. Keep in mind, not to reward her for anything but the correct behaviour. Build her up to the contact behaviour, use a contact trainer if you can. Start slow, having her stop on the zone, then reward. Do this until you see that she's getting it. Then reward intermitantly. You can also throw in an "easy" or "slow" command, to slow her down right before the zone, and a "wait" if you like to hold her in the zone for a second to make sure that she gets it. In the beginning I rewarded from the contact ... placing the food on the zone as she got there. I now reward from me. Rewarding from yourself, instead of the equipment can help with focusing issues - rewarding from the contact point itself helps the dog to associate the "where" of the contact training. I would also recommend making her stop on the contact, especially if she's "hyper" in the ring. Allows you to get control of her for a second or two.
Two things that I like to do for focusing issues are, rewarding the dog from your mouth - I know it sounds gross, and make sure to use a dry reward (like a cookie) instead of a rollover or something really meaty (trust me, they taste disgusting). Do a few drops from you mouth standing over your dog, or in the heel position. After she realizes where the treats are coming from, use a look at me command or just look, and then reward from your mouth. So every time you say look, dog looks at your face, you drop reward. Obviously, begin to work up the time between the command and reward. you now have a look at me command that gives you full attention with hopefully some good eye contact.
Another thing that's worked out very well for me is during play, ie. fetch, every time the dog brings back the ball, hold it slightly to the side, and do not release it until the dog has looked at your face. Start very close to your face, and then slowly work away. It doesn't take long for the dog to understand the concept. In the dogs mind, once they grasp this, attention equals reward, and assuming that you have a good retrieve, throw the ball as soon as the attention is on your face. Again, build up time they hold eye contact, and build up distance of the ball (or object or treat) is from your face - out to the left, right, above, below etc etc. You can use a look command with this exercise as well, but I like to let the dog figure it out first in the begining. Its amazing how quickly they will.
I also like to make sure that the reward i'm using is attractive to the dog. If you're using kibble, and your dog prefers rollover, switch ... you'll see a better performance if the reward is more salient.
Hope this makes some sense and helps a bit, I'm sure others will have much more to add. Good luck!!!

[adojrts]

You have admitted that trialing to soon was a mistake, that is good and is the first step. It is an unfair expectation to take a dog that is easily distracted, over stimulated etc and with limited training and trial them. There is little if any positive 'experiences' that the dog will gain. We can all relate with the desire to go out and 'run' agility, even if you don't have the expectation of doing well as you stated. BUT if you train correctly and over enough time, you can often go out and be completely successful at your first trial by Q'ing and winning the class. BUT if you change your critria when 'running' at a trial from how you have trained, the dog learns that we train one way and trial another. That is a very common mistake and EVERYONE has done it at one time or another and it can takes months or years to fix it.
Training a contact behaviour takes far longer than a couple of months, regardless of which contact behaviour is trained. You have to pick one contact behaviour and train it completely, you can't try each one, train it for a short period of time and decide that the method isn't working for her. How can it, if it hasn't been trained fully and over time?
Running contacts can be very successful, but even the people who use them and have developed some excellent methods of training, will say the rate of missing a contact is HIGHER, than some of the other contact behaviours like 2o2o etc. None of them are fool proof and none of them can be trained quickly or incompletely.
Focus- you need Focus away from the agility field first, then add distractions, THEN train using the agility equipment.

You say that others have suggested Video's and other methods that you have tried. Which ones?
I have a few questions first before giving ideas on how to retrain.
When you say that she is distracted, how? Please give examples.
How much or how little control do you have? Does she break away from you and do equipment without being asked? Does she bark or bite at you when very excited? Will she hold a stay while near the equipment? Does she get the 'zoomies'?
Can you run and turn while she is either in a heel or side position? (not doing equipment, just on the flat)

I just read on the other thread that you are trying not to give up, please don't agility can be the BEST fun, its very addicting. It isn't easy, not on any level, although millions of people make it look like it is. Agility takes time to train, it is full of challenges both in training and on the course.
Yes there are some people that can start trialing quickly but the faster and higher drive your dog has, the longer you have to train.
We will certainly try to help you to the best of our abilities on this forum.
A couple more questions.....Do you continue to take classes or are you training alone? How old is your dog?

Lynn

[Bear Luv]

I havent tried any videos, and I still trying to decide which method I want to do before I go out and spend $50 on a video.

Usually she is really focused, Bear loves to run, but she also likes to smell, especially the air. And she will stop and sniff the air. Not at home, just at trials. She also is very obsessed with other dogs, so if I am not careful before a run, she will not pay attention to me, Instead, she will try and find the dog that just ran.

No, she doesnt break away and do equipment without being asked. I am not the best handler, so sometimes I do send her to wrong obstacles. She is really good about doing the course right. Out of all of our runs, she only really screwed up her Reg. 2, and weavers round. Her reg. 2 round, she wouldnt go up the DW, there was a tunnel, and she was confused, and took the tunnel. Other then that, the course was perfect. And her weavers round. The first run of the day, we were late, I didnt have time to warm her up, so she ran through two tunnels and ignored me to run around the course, she didnt go through any obstacles through. She doesnt bite at me when excited, or bark. She will bark before I let her run at home though. She has a very nice start line stay. She has gotten the zoomies once during a run.

I dont understand that question. I dont think I have ever tried it. I can do a jog heel with her on the flat.

I really dont want to give up, I am addicted.

Thats disappointing lol, my dog can be really slow, but only when distracted. Otherwise she is a really fast strongly driven dog. I am hoping I can get the most help possible on this forum, as I dont take classes.

I have never taken a class, which could be a mistake, but its not very possible to start. The closest classes offered are over an hour away. And I cant ask my parents to take me once a week to that, its not fair to them. They are trying to be supportive, but they dont understand enough to be. They wouldnt do it either. I am trying my hardest to do this on my own, and I think even if we are never good enough to be the best, thats ok with me. I just want to try and make it fun for her and me. And Bear is 4, she will be 5 this coming June.

Also, I decided to lower the contacts as far as I can, and teach 2o2o, or at least teach her to drive it to the end and try to stop, she has trouble with stopping because of her shoulders.

Diane:)

[adojrts]

Diane;
Well training on your own isn't the best, but it has been done (I did for a year). But be prepared to retrain some stuff, which in the long term takes longer and is more expensive. What you need to do is arm yourself with as much good ref. material that you can get your hands on. I can't remember if it has been suggested but get a subscription to Clean Run, its an amazing agility mag. and worth every penny.
Also if weekly classes are not possible, then even one class on month or a private once a month works.
If you can find someone near you to buddy up with when training is always a good plan. Especially if it is someone who is already competing and doing well.

Good luck
Lynn

[Bear Luv]

I havent subscribed to clean run just yet but I plan too. The closest place that offers agility, is like 15 minutes away. But they are full with classes for the next like...3 months. I havent been able to find anyone directly in my area willing to train with me. But I think one day. I hope to join a club and take lessons at one point.

Thanks for the advice!

Diane

[adojrts]

Hey,
I sent you a Pm with some info in it, hope it helps.
Also check out Calling all Agility Addicts (in this forum), there is some info there on contact training.
Lynn

[Bear Luv]

I havent thanked you yet, but I have been meaning to. We are working with a 2o2o method. We tried a bit of backchaining(as seen in a clean run issue) and it killed her drive. Then I got out the tunnel, and it picked up her speed and drive for the a-frame, and so she stopped only 50% of the time after that lol, but we are working on it!

Right now, I really dont want to stop and take lessons. I know it would make us better, but I want to see how far we can get on our own.

I do have a question though, for those who compete with their dogs,

Does rewarding after a run(tugging, or a treat) help focus during the run? Like they know they are going to get a cookie or something after they run, so they pay attention to you?

Diane

[adojrts]

I am not to sure what you mean but I ll give it a go.
There are different types of focus when running a course, there is handler focus, which is being ready to focus on the handler to follow a directional.
And there is obstacle focus, we need our dogs to focus on the task at hand instead of where or what the handler is doing. Weaves and contacts require the dog to be much more focused on what they are doing, not what the handler is doing. Therefore we require a dog on any given sequence or course to change back and forth between obstacle focus and handler focus.

Focus during a run or sequence when training should be rewarded. But having said that focus has to be trained, some dogs get very distracted or are being asked to do far more than the level of training that they have had, therefore they can be 'unfocused'.
You have to be careful not to confuse unfocused and stress behaviours.
Your dog can give you stress behaviours for many reasons, one of the main ones is handler unrealistic expectations and the dog not knowing its job well enough, in short not enough correct training but the handler still wants to 'run agility'.
Do we reward after a run for attention? No, we reward for a job well done, even if there are mistakes and NQ's, which focus is a huge part of.
Do I reward my dog for blowing me off and being unfocused? Well that would depend on why the dog did what it did and what it did. If the dog left the ring to go visit someone.........no I wouldn't reward them. If they started to get the zoomies, I would try to figure out why, is he just feeling very good and over the top? If so I need to leave the agility equipment alone and work on expelling some of that energy and gaining focus on me, then try again.
If the dog is sniffing and tuning out, we need to work on focus and fun games, lower the difficulty level to the level that we know the dog is successful.

Check out this link

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67311
This is a pic of Petie and I, it a perfect example of a dog working in obstacle focus, he is looking and driving forward at speed. He is not concerned about where I am or what I am doing. He has been trained to carry on no matter what I do, I can take off running in the opposite direction and he will continue on with what he was directed to do. Now having said that, obviously he is not a novice dog, it takes A LOT of dedicated training to get to this point (plus its fun!!)

[BostonBanker]

I'm FAR from the expert on contacts (I'm one of the ones spending the entire winter working on it after realizing we didn't have them down well enough to compete), but your comment on the backchaining killing the drive is something I've dealt with. My dog is VERY soft and had practically no drive when we started. Every bit of training we do with her takes that into account, and her confidence and drive have soared with the help of my instructors. I don't think someone watching her work today would believe how she used to be.

Backchaining did slow her down at first, but I think it had to. She needed to figure out what I wanted and to get it right 99.9% of the time (because much less success than that and she shuts down:p), and she wasn't physically or mentally capable of doing it at speed at the time. Nothing shuts her drive off faster than her being uncertain. Once she understood the behavior, she was able to add more speed. We've been working on her 2on2off for almost four months now, and we are just barely to the point where she does complete (but very low) contact equipment in short sequences. It took that long for her to really understand the behavior enough to perform it with confidence at speed.

So, in other words, I wouldn't turn away from backchaining immediately just because it slowed your dog down. Take the time to really train it, and in my experience, you can add the speed back in later.

[Bear Luv]

I just feel like her focus and drive has been completely off lately. After our last trial, I had really been considering giving up, my mind was elsewhere, and I didnt take her outside and run her, because, when I did, she wouldnt do it.

before our trial, she was really speedy and focused on me completely. But for some reason, no matter what, I cant get that focus back, so having the backchaining kill her the little drive she had left, just about killed me on the inside. Its why I stopped training them.

I realize being able to compete takes a lot of hard work, and I want to get there, just the last two days feel like its never gonna happen.

I have tried focus games, like dropping a piece of food on the ground, and having her look at me till I tell her she can have it, but thats not it, outside, its like she doesnt want to do it anymore....

Diane

[BostonBanker]

Like I said, that's exactly the sort of behavior I get from Meg when she is uncertain. For her, it has nothing to do with focus; her focus on me is incredible. But if she doesn't know what I want and is worried, she won't make eye contact, and will just slink around and refuse to play with me. Luckily it has been a long time since we've gotten to that point.

I'll repeat what others have said - even a few sessions with a good pro may be enough to get you back on track for a while. I'd be lost without the help of my instructors, and would have given up a long time ago. You can educate yourself all you want with books, dvds, and information from message boards, but these are people who have seen hundreds of dogs go through the same sort of stuff. That sort of education has to be "earned" for lack of a better word.

What if you just left contacts alone for a while and did some really simple stuff to get your dog going again? If Meg is ever started to appear worried, I'll do really easy things like a speed circle (just jumps and tunnels, with a reward thrown at any point where she starts to pick up speed) or just a line of jumps with a bait bag at the end that she can target to.

Ado, step in and correct any mistakes I've made!

[Bear Luv]

I dont know whats up with her. I really would rather not take lessons, I know it would be beneficial, but I would really like to see how far we can go. I would love to train dogs for a living, and I think, even if its just for a few months, till I give in, I would like to try it.

I am giving it till the end of February, not for her to learn her contacts, but if she isnt really improving...

I am going to be getting actual weave poles tomorrow, and we are going to work on those, and small courses.

if you were curious about what her contacts looked like...here is our video from a few days ago.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vgms5FTxE8A

I cut out most of her bad runs, and for her, this is out of it, I can try, and get a video to compare her regular drive to, but in this video, and that practice, it was like down 5 notches.

Diane:)

[adojrts]

I dont know whats up with her. I really would rather not take lessons, I know it would be beneficial, but I would really like to see how far we can go. I would love to train dogs for a living, and I think, even if its just for a few months, till I give in, I would like to try it.

I am giving it till the end of February, not for her to learn her contacts, but if she isnt really improving...

I am going to be getting actual weave poles tomorrow, and we are going to work on those, and small courses.

if you were curious about what her contacts looked like...here is our video from a few days ago.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vgms5FTxE8A

I cut out most of her bad runs, and for her, this is out of it, I can try, and get a video to compare her regular drive to, but in this video, and that practice, it was like down 5 notches.

Diane:)

Boston, you did great, no need for me to comment on what you posted :D

Diane:
Are you ready for this? This is what I see, what I will be posting is the notes that I made while watching the video many times. BTW, your dog is focused on you.

Notes:

Is there a target on the ground? - dog is looking at toy and handler, no nose touch for a proper 2o2o, the toy/tug tossed out in front of the contact only a couple of times (which the dog finds most rewarding, from just viewing this video), sharp turns with one stride to a full height jump, is the dog always trained with full height jumps? handler sometimes using 'evil arm/hand' - arm/hand on opposite side of body, which is an unclear cue to the dog because it is blocked by the handlers body. Cueing should always be done from the same side as the dog, with the exception of RFP. Toy/tug is always present and visable, being used as a lure, should be hidden when carried by the handler. Tug/toy should be thrown by the hand closest to the dog, never happens. Contact means to the dog, don't do it until the handler is close and hovering. Dog slows down after the apex of frame, waiting for handler to get into position. Handler often stepping closer or using lower body to block as pelvis rocks forward and knee is bent, dog is cueing off that as well, handler is often facing dog, instead of facing forward (lucky that the dog doesn't swing hindend off the contact). Handler nevers forward with the dog after the contact to reward. Sometimes there is a hand cue, sometimes there isn't, dog doesn't do the contact unless the handler uses that hand cue. Handler never works from the other side, nor runs different sequences. Dog does the contact as the handler requires after many attempts, then the dog is asked to jump and THEN is rewarded, not when it should have been after the contact was done. Dog is focused more on the handler, looking for all those cues and is not doing obstacle focus.

Did I count 21 times of doing the frame??? All in one session? If so that is ONE of the reasons she doesn't want to play- Drilling.

And you cut out most of her bad runs? This looks like it was taped all in one session, just how long do you train?
She looks like a lovely dog, who is trying very hard to please you btw.

[Bear Luv]

Mmkay, the session was about 20 minutes long, give or take.

I am not sure how else I am supposed to train contact...lol. To be honest, thats why I am looking for direction, no one on youtube has given me much advice on how to train effectively.

I cut out the runs she wasnt focusing.

I know I am supposed to work on the other side, and distance, but I wanted to make sure she understood that she needed to stop first, and usually, I dont train with 24" jumps, I didnt realize it was that high, normally they are at 18".

I tried training with a target, but she wont stop and touch it, at all. She know ths command, and will do it, just not on the A-frame. Or dog walk, or any part of agility. Its been torture just trying to get her to stop, she likes to move.

I havent trained this way before, ever, I seriously just guessed at where to begin, but since then, have added a tunnel in front, so she has to go through that then turn, then stop for 2o2o, then toy is throw over a jump after she makes a 2o2o. Sometimes I throw the toy, sometimes I dont. I am right handed, and it feels more comfortable to throw it in that hand.

Should I use a food plate? or something to see if that works?

I am a noob when it comes to this kind of thing, and I admit I have no idea what I am doing when it comes to contacts, I am training them they way I think I should, and what seems logical to me. That was our first day doing 2o2o, also with a new command. Getting her to stop was very hard :x.

Thank you for your comments, I understand that if it does come down to the fact you all believe I am beyond help, then I will seek out a trainer. But for me, this is just very important.

Diane

[adojrts]

Diane,
It's not that you are beyond help and I hope you don't think I was being too hard.
I teach agility and I often have people come that have started at home or some place else and the contacts are often a little messed up lol.

How did you teach your dog to target? Did you teach it away from the contact equipment or a plank first or did you put it at the bottom?
Let me know and we can help.
Look at what I posted from my notes and watch your video, you will see what I am talking about. Once you become aware of this kind of stuff, then you can fix it. That is why having someone watch you train that has experience can be such a benefit.

Lynn

[BostonBanker]

I am not sure how else I am supposed to train contact...lol. To be honest, thats why I am looking for direction, no one on youtube has given me much advice on how to train effectively.


So you will seek help from random people on YouTube, but not from an actual qualified instructor? If you really don't want to put your dog in a class, what about asking if you can "audit" some foundation agility classes? It might help you figure out exercises and such, and if you want to train professionally, would probably be extremely helpful. Our classes always include a lot of learning theory discussion and back-and-forth brainstorming. I love that sort of stuff, and it often helps clarify things for me. Plus it has resulted in some really good friendships. Even if you don't put your dog in the class, I bet you would get a ton out of it, at a fraction of the price.

I saw some of the same stuff in your video as Ado, although not nearly as much. The big thing that stood out to me as the owner of a relatively low-drive dog was that you weren't ever really rewarding the contact; the dog either got an extremely short chance to "grab" the toy or, more often, had to continue on to a jump before being rewarded. I also wouldn't reward out of your hand as much. I did that a lot with Meg, and the end result was her looking up at me and swinging her butt of the plank (this was when we weren't doing any actual equipment, just plank and stair work). You could mark the behavior with a clicker or word, and then throw the reward out in front of the obstacle to keep your dog driving (and looking) forward.

I feel like I'm being a pest about the whole class thing, so I promise this is the last I will mention of it! I've altered my plan for teaching contacts three main times (from teaching a down on the obstacle, to running, to 2o2o). My techinques for training each one changed over time as well. I've seen how hard that was for her to handle. Even with everything I did to keep it simple and have a really high rate of reinforcement, she would often give me a behavior that she used to get rewarded for, then get frustrated when it didn't earn her a reward. And then she would start shutting down. I just feel that almost all dogs have a limit to the amount of re-training they can take before they just don't want to play anymore. I wish wish wish that I had started contacts correctly right from the start. It would have saved my dog a lot of confusion and frustration. I guess I just don't understand the attitude of trying by yourself "until you are beyond help" and then trying to get help. Why not save your dog the frustration and make sure you are taking the right path right from the start? Getting help isn't going to ruin your chances of becoming a professional trainer - it is going to help it.

Please don't take this personally - it isn't meant to offend. I'm just trying to offer my advice from someone who is in a fairly similar place as you.

[adojrts]

So you will seek help from random people on YouTube, but not from an actual qualified instructor? If you really don't want to put your dog in a class, what about asking if you can "audit" some foundation agility classes? It might help you figure out exercises and such, and if you want to train professionally, would probably be extremely helpful. Our classes always include a lot of learning theory discussion and back-and-forth brainstorming. I love that sort of stuff, and it often helps clarify things for me. Plus it has resulted in some really good friendships. Even if you don't put your dog in the class, I bet you would get a ton out of it, at a fraction of the price.

I saw some of the same stuff in your video as Ado, although not nearly as much. The big thing that stood out to me as the owner of a relatively low-drive dog was that you weren't ever really rewarding the contact; the dog either got an extremely short chance to "grab" the toy or, more often, had to continue on to a jump before being rewarded. I also wouldn't reward out of your hand as much. I did that a lot with Meg, and the end result was her looking up at me and swinging her butt of the plank (this was when we weren't doing any actual equipment, just plank and stair work). You could mark the behavior with a clicker or word, and then throw the reward out in front of the obstacle to keep your dog driving (and looking) forward.

I feel like I'm being a pest about the whole class thing, so I promise this is the last I will mention of it! I've altered my plan for teaching contacts three main times (from teaching a down on the obstacle, to running, to 2o2o). My techinques for training each one changed over time as well. I've seen how hard that was for her to handle. Even with everything I did to keep it simple and have a really high rate of reinforcement, she would often give me a behavior that she used to get rewarded for, then get frustrated when it didn't earn her a reward. And then she would start shutting down. I just feel that almost all dogs have a limit to the amount of re-training they can take before they just don't want to play anymore. I wish wish wish that I had started contacts correctly right from the start. It would have saved my dog a lot of confusion and frustration. I guess I just don't understand the attitude of trying by yourself "until you are beyond help" and then trying to get help. Why not save your dog the frustration and make sure you are taking the right path right from the start? Getting help isn't going to ruin your chances of becoming a professional trainer - it is going to help it.

Please don't take this personally - it isn't meant to offend. I'm just trying to offer my advice from someone who is in a fairly similar place as you.

BB, well said :hail::hail::hail::hail: awesome advice on auditing !!!

[~Tucker&Me~]

I just wanted to mention that when training my low drive dog, I had to get super into the game of tug or he would eventually lose interest. When you rewarded her with it you seemed to barely be playing with her. It was almost as if she just got to have it in her mouth for a couple seconds....

Remember to get have fun with it! Make noises, jump around, play a nice little game of tug with her. Pump her up a little!

And I agree with everything else said.

~Tucker

[adojrts]

Agreed, I don't think you are rewarding enough.

I have a few more questions too, lol thats me :D
How did you start the 2o2o training? On the frame? On a contact board, stairs, plank? Did you teach a target touch along with the 2o2o before putting her on the equipment?

And have you done any target and backchaining for sequences? (not contact training)

Thanks
Lynn

[Bear Luv]

I do give her a nice long tug. You just dont see that because I edited it out for a shorter video. Just so you know. I am all about rewarding her, I would never shorten a reward for her. You can have at most a 10 minutes video, and my video was almost 5 minutes. My computer almost froze, it doesnt like me uploading anything over 3. I left out a lot of footage...

She knows "Touch" as a targeting command(with a plate), but she wont do it, unless you are holding the plate, or have it away from the agility course. She wont "Touch" at all, so we didnt use that when I started 2o2o training.

I just kind of got her on the A-frame, not running up it and stopping, but at the end, and just kind of guided her onto the end, Said, Target, and Stay, then moved that to Target, and a hand signal, and slowly, I am taking away the hand signal.

I have thought about classes, really I have, but part of me really doesnt want to do it, I want to see how far I can go with this, she is already, in my eyes, improving with the 2o2o, I realize no where near ready to compete, but when it stops raining I will take a video of what we have been doing.

The random youtube people are juniors, just like me, some of them have successfully trained their dogs on their own, and some take classes. A couple of them train with really great instructors. But usually when I ask for advice, I get nothing, or something that really doesnt work for us. :x.

I do sometimes(when I can) sit in on the agility classes they offer for free to the 4-H dog club in my area. A lot of people know the trainer, but she does it for nothing. I have talked to her, and eventually, I will probably take private lessons with her. I just dont want to start at this time. Like I said, I am going to give it till February.

I am doing this just for fun, to bond with my dog, so if I screw up her contacts beyond repair, I am not going to be upset. Sure, I love to compete with her, but it wont upset me if we cant.

I have never heard of Backchaining before the article I read in cleanrun. So, no, I havent used it before :x

Diane

[adojrts]

Diane,
How did you teach 'touch' on a target (plate)?
Please give details, I expect we can fix this and get you to a 100 % success rate without drilling your dog on the contacts.
Also how far are you from Marriott Ohio? Did you know that one of the nations top agility trainers/judges is there? It is my hope to go to at least one agility camp there in 2008, unbelievable in how cheap those camps are.
I am looking to make an 8 hr drive one way to them :D

Lynn

[Bear Luv]

I used a clicker, and got a lime green lid from our cabinet, and shook it in front of her so she could get interested in it, then I would put it in front of her and say "Touch" she would sniff it, and I would click and treat. Later one she started trying to hit it with her paw, and it was a long process of "Touch" - "No" back and forth until finally she touched it with her nose, and I would click and treat. It took her a couple of days to get this down. We still work on it a little bit, but if I put it on the ground, she tries to eat it :x

I live in maryland, so probably around 6 hours (give or take). Is the trainer you are talking about named Jenn something, and owns a training facility called Wild Weavers. I think thats the right names and everything...not sure...But I know two people who train under her. Is there a link to the website about this camp? I will look into it if so. I am not to educated on famous agility people lol :x so you will have to excuse my daftness.

Right now, we stopped working on contacts, for a week. I just got new Weaves, and we are working on distance with them.

I have a question, do you think, taking an advanced obedience class would help with focus on me in different areas? At home she is pretty good about focus, unless she has to go to the bathroom, but I think along with contacts, thats another major thing we need to improve on.

Diane:)

[adojrts]

Ok, it sounds like there were some holes in your target training.
First thing you need to do is pick another word for the target, 'touch' can't be used now. Some people use 'bottom', spot or just 'target'.
But you are not going to use any word at first, until she is 100% successful.
Use a clear plastic lid about 4 inches across, or get some plexie glass 4 x 4, cost about 4 dollars.
Hold the target, when she touches her nose c/r. Do this many times 20x. Great time is her meal. Then places the target on the ground, take a handful of her food or treats, quickly place them in the middle of the target, everytime she takes the reward, click. You want her standing, not in a sit or a down, if she goes down, move the target and start again. Do at least 30 -50 reps of this, never say your target word at this point. Then you put your reward where she can't see it, pocket bait bag, fanny pack etc. Wait for her to offer the touch to the target, click and put the reward on the middle of the target. If she puts a paw on it, pick up the target, move a couple of feet away and start at the beginning again, don't tell her no, don't say anything to her. She WILL figure out that putting a paw on it, doesn't get her anything.
This is your critria, you want her to stare at the target and to nose tap it, while standing, you can also have her tapping the target 2-3 times you just build to that point. You don't want her tapping her nose and then looking at you. If at anytime she gets confused or stops giving you the desired behaviours then go back to the point that she was successful and work up again.
Then you start moving around her, so that she understands that she is to remain at the target and not move, that she is to remain staring at the target, giving nose taps. For duration, randomly click and put the reward on the target, the same for distance and lateral distance.
Then you take it to a plank or to a contact board and train it there, you can also train it on steps/stairs (actually that is very much recommended). When she is 100% successful (nothing less than 80%), THEN you train it on the contact equipment.
Each session should be no longer than 3-4 minutes when training this, although you can train several times a day. Your rate of rewards and reinforcements has to be high. Don't prompt her by pointing to the target.
Don't lure the target with the exception of the very first stage.
Take your frame, fold it up and lay it on the ground,
put the target on the ground (you have to judge by her size what would be the most comfortable for her), you stand facing forward with clicker and rewards ready (rewards not in your hand) have her get on the frame (don't call it frame or whatever your name for it is) she should give you a nose tap and stare at the target, c/r. At this point when she can do it, continue on training lateral distance, you running away to then release her etc. And from both sides.
Then backchain it, until you can lead out, run by and send to the target and don't forget that release word each time.
When she can do that, put up a lowered frame, do all of it again!!
To fade the clear target, have her in the 2o2o, have her touch, then reach down and slide it to the side, wait for her to nose touch the ground, c/r, slide the target back, have her touch c/r. I would also give a very high rate of rewards (c/r) for anytime that she continues to nose tap without the target there, don't waste that break through.

When she is giving you a reliable 2o2o, by being sent to, run bys and lead outs, lateral distance, speed and with you being in any position from her (ahead, to the side, behind, stopping etc), THEN you can label it.

Good luck, have patience, it takes a long time to properly train a dog for agility and it takes longer to retrain.
The trainer that I am talking about is Bud Houston Country Dream Agility
www.dogagility.org/
Lynn

[Bear Luv]

All right, I will try that.

I will look into his camp, if its during the summer I can probably go.

Thanks for the advice! I will let you guys know how she has progressed.

Diane:)