Help fading out treats and clicker?

[MonChiChi]

I'm trying to train my 5 month Corgi, Beasley. He's too smart for his own good I think. He picks up new commands so fast it astounds me, but he's also learned to ignore me and that I won't punish him.

My problem is this, for example: I have taught Beasley 'come' and he does it faithfully when we are having a little training session, OR if he knows I've got either treats or the clicker in hand. I'm trying to fade out treats because he's become a bit of a treat monger if you will, after he does the command he's going crazy for the treat - to the point where he doesn't even take it nice anymore, he just snaps it up and nips my fingers sometimes. I'll tell him come and he does, then I click and try to pat his head and tell him 'good come', but he backs up and pulls away and turns his head before I can pat him, because he's looking for the treat I am supposed to have in my fingers.

Another command he chooses to ignore at will (specifically if he can see I do not have the treats handy) is the 'leave it' command.

I want him to respond to these commands all the time because the point is I want to be able to call him to me if there is danger (a car in the street, or a person or another dog I don't know) or drop/leave something he's picked up that he shouldn't have (medicine, etc. - and NO, I don't leave medicine laying around on the floor, but it's a good example. perhaps a better one would be all of the rabbit poops he eats outside...).

I've tried sproadically giving treats and what not - but what is the best way to 'wean' him off the positve rewards (read: bribes) so that he will repond to me when it's really important, and the treats aren't handy?

[houndlove]

Try this article (and the other articles linked in it): http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1104

It's really important even from the beginning of your training, to get the food out of your hand. I will often put my treats in a cup or jar and then put the cup way on the top of a book shelf on the other side of the room from where I'm training. That way, me holding food is never part of the equation for the dog. The dog never learns to look for it because I never have it in my hand before the behavior has been executed. It can really easily become part of the behavior cue without you meaning for it to. Dogs are taking in the whole picture of what's going on prior to them doing their behavior--the way you are sitting or standing, what you say, what your hands do, what your posture is, what room you are in, and what you are holding in your hand. All of that becomes part of the "command" to them. They don't know just to focus on what you say or just on a hand signal. They take in the whole picture.

[adojrts]

Check out www.clickersolutions.com

If he will only do the desired behaviours when you have food or a clicker on you, then I expect you haven't used the clicker correctly. Because clicker training is not bribing and we don't have the reward in our hands when using the clicker. You may also check the other threads on this forum on how to use a clicker correctly and the misconceptions about it.

[MonChiChi]

Thanks guys, for helping me see what I was missing. I never realized I wasn't using the clicker properly... this is what they taught me when they gave me the clicker and I gave them a hundred bucks at Petsmart. Great investment I guess. I'll check out the links.

[lizzybeth727]

I'd say at least half of all "clicker trainers" teach it wrong, that's why there are so many articles out there about "real" clicker training.

[adojrts]

I'd say at least half of all "clicker trainers" teach it wrong, that's why there are so many articles out there about "real" clicker training.
There is a rumor that there is a 'trainer' about an hour or so from me that is 'clicker training'.......1 click for sit.......2 clicks for down.........3 clicks for a recall and so on..........
That certainly takes clicker training misconceptions to a whole new level !!! Is it true? gezz I hope not. I have no idea who it is, if it is true, but many of us have had a great time chatting about it and having a very good laugh :D
It's actually very hard (at least for me :yikes:) to wrap my brain around how you could possibly even THINK you could progress and how many clicks for anything more than the simplist behaviours???? Just a little limiting huh?

Lynn

[lizzybeth727]

There is a rumor that there is a 'trainer' about an hour or so from me that is 'clicker training'.......1 click for sit.......2 clicks for down.........3 clicks for a recall and so on..........
I know there are a lot of "average" pet owners who believe this... It was my joke when I was teaching classes, "It's a marker, not morse code...." but it's just appalling that there's a professional charging people money to learn this.

How confusing for the dog, too! A clicker actually clicks twice for every button push, so, say, roll over is 4 clicks, that's actually 8. How many dogs loose count!

[houndlove]

The thing that amazes me about professionals teaching it all wrong is that...it's not rocket science! There are a few really basic concepts that you need to have a complete grasp of, but once you've got those down, you can teach anything with them.

The problem with the treats becoming part of the cue is really basic if you understand A-B-C: antecedent, behavior, consequence. That is basic behaviorism! I could probably teach anyone everything they needed to know to begin clicker training in an hour, and I'm in no way even a professional (though I do have my degrees in social sciences and education and work in educational psychology, but the ins and outs of behaviorism and operant conditioning play nearly no role in the work I do in my actual professional life). The rest is just developing and practicing skills (timing, body language, not being a klutz, reading your dog).

Unfortunately, MonChiChi, the Big Box Store trainers don't really have the greatest of reputations. Every now and then you get a trainer there who is a good knowledgeable professional trainer just moonlighting to make some extra dough, or someone with a natural gift just starting out in the profession, but generally the rule of "if they knew what they were talking about, they wouldn't be working for $9/hour here" applies.

[corgipower]

There is a rumor that there is a 'trainer' about an hour or so from me that is 'clicker training'.......1 click for sit.......2 clicks for down.........3 clicks for a recall and so on..........


if nothing else, the dog can learn valuable counting skills. and then we can ask him to balance the checkbook
:popcorn:

"It's a marker, not morse code...."

let me know if anyone figures out how to teach the dog to decipher morse code :hail:

[lizzybeth727]

generally the rule of "if they knew what they were talking about, they wouldn't be working for $9/hour here" applies.
I worked full time at Petsmart for three years (I guarantee I wouldn't have stayed that long if I made $9 an hour). I left then to work for a service dog training organization, where I took a several-thousand-dollar paycut. Another trainer who started with me made almost twice as much at Petsmart (after working a few more years than I have) as she does now. So your can't value your professional worth based on your paycheck.

By the way, I think it says something about our new organization that we want to work here bad enough to make such a financial sacrifice!