Another Mill - Poms

[mrose_s]

okay, I know its not nice to show so many bad breeders but omg this is horrific
http://www.allstarpoms.net/index.html

16 expected litters between now and the end of next month

...they have merle poms (http://www.allstarpoms.net/MERLEGALLERY.html). are they even real?

[LappieLover]

Yes, there are merle pomeranians. They come in almost any color combination you can imagine, including wolf sable and "regular" sable (similar to what we think of as a traditional coloring for collies).

[bubbatd]

Ah yes .... yet another flashy site to impress people . Flashsy prices too ! Yuck !!!

[FoxyWench]

merle poms are allowed in standard...

definatly a mill, prices reflect, shame because some of those pups are absoluty gorgoeus in face and thats what will sell them

[mrose_s]

there are merlse poms? I did not know that. God they are GORGEOUS! People will get sucked it.

[stevinski]

its a horrible place, but you have to admit, the merle poms are absolutely stunning!

[Fran27]

Yeah I remember seeing that site when I was looking at poms breeder... So expensive, and they're selling their females for $800 for breeding, and to 'small hobby breeders only'... plus no health testing, maybe three of the parents were shown... Ugh!!!!!!

But gosh they are cute :(

[Punkygirl0101]

OMG, 6 litters? That is absolutely horrible.

They don't health test, they don't have homes lined up..they have WAAY too many dogs.

[Lilavati]

Those merle poms are really, really cool. I want one. Alas, I doubt I will ever find one from someone I'd care to buy a dog from.

That said, I'm going to make a statement that is sure to get me flamed. Taking her site at face value (i.e. construing the evidence in a manner most favorable to the defendant) . . . well, there's a lot worse out there. As a resident of VA, we've seen a lot of the worst the past few weeks.

I'm beginning to think that places like this are . . . well, inevitable, and as things go, not so bad . . .

WAIT! Don't flame yet!

I am a firm supporter of responsible breeding, health testing, breeding for some purpose other than money making. . . but . . .

People want dogs. They want purebred dogs. They often want very special purebred dogs of a certain color (whether its a real color or not). No ammount of education is going to get most people to join a waiting list for a puppy from a responsible breeder, or even do the legwork to find a responsible breeder. This is a culture of instant gratification. Sure, if there's a responsible breeder in the area who has a litter (and I don't think they ALL have to have waiting lists) they'll be happy to purchase there. But they want their dog, and they want it now and they want EXACTLY the dog they want.

That said, I'd rather have people like this, who raise their dogs in clean conditions, who give health tips and warnings about genetic diseases (no health testing, but perhaps she's not had any overt problems, that leaves you with DNA tests, which are expensive). This seems to be how she makes her living, not a hobby for a few extra bucks. Yes, I'd rather have her out there, providing puppies to the ignorant and impatient, than the horror shows we saw in VA, or even many of the BYBs, who don't know a dang thing about dogs. With that many dogs its hard to believe this lady hasn't learned something.

She's a liscensed kennel . . .that means she's inspected and regulated. Good. I'd much prefer that to people doing this in secret. And someone will do it. There's too much money to be made. We may have to accept that this sort of thing will go on . . . it can go on with people who seem to at least rather like their breed and care fairly well for their dogs . . . or it can go on in the backs of barns, in tiny filthy cages, in secret. But it will go on.

Will I buy a dog from her? No. Will I recommend someone buy a dog from her? No. Will I shrug if someone does and say, well, you coulda done worse? Yep.

[Sweet72947]

She's a liscensed kennel . . .that means she's inspected and regulated. Good.

*snort* the USDA does not have the time or resources to inspect and regulate everybody, nor is it at the top of their priority list. Here are a few links on the subject (I had to do some deep googling to find the good stuff that is not on PETA, HSUS or the like, because I know how people on here don't trust them):

USDA: Who Does it Really Protect? Not the Dogs! (http://igsafehouse.org/livestockreports/LSReport6.pdf)

Performance Audit of Animal Care Facilities Inspection Program (http://www.auditor.mo.gov/press/2001-09.pdf)

Follow Up Review of Animal Care Facilities Inspection Program (http://www.auditor.mo.gov/press/2004-91.pdf)

And you can obtain real USDA inspection reports if you want, but it costs a fee.

[Fran27]

I agree with Lilavati to an extent... It's almost impossible to find good breeders sometimes. When I was looking for a newfie I contacted the best breeders of PA and never even got a reply from most of them. I was going to get on the list for a pup and see the parents 4 months later, then got an email saying they were not going to breed for another year at least, and sent me to another breeder who never contacted me back... When I looked at good pom breeders in the nearby states I couldn't find any.

I totally understand that some people don't want to wait, especially if they are ignorant of breeding practices, and let's face it BYBs will always answer your emails. I'm lucky that I like big dogs and they are easy to find in rescues, but for people who wants small dogs... BYBs are unfortunately the easiest choice, and I think it beats pet store pups...

[Lilavati]

*snort* the USDA does not have the time or resources to inspect and regulate everybody, nor is it at the top of their priority list. Here are a few links on the subject (I had to do some deep googling to find the good stuff that is not on PETA, HSUS or the like, because I know how people on here don't trust them):

USDA: Who Does it Really Protect? Not the Dogs! (http://igsafehouse.org/livestockreports/LSReport6.pdf)

Performance Audit of Animal Care Facilities Inspection Program (http://www.auditor.mo.gov/press/2001-09.pdf)

Follow Up Review of Animal Care Facilities Inspection Program (http://www.auditor.mo.gov/press/2004-91.pdf)

And you can obtain real USDA inspection reports if you want, but it costs a fee.

No, its not all that great. But its better than nothing. And often local kennel laws are stricter. If you've been watching the news, we've seen "nothing" recently here in VA. Of course, they rarely actually do inspect, and some of their regulations are idiotic . . . but the solution is to tighten up the regulations (and make them sensible) and have more inspections . . that's a problem across the board with all animal facilities . . . whether its pet dogs or the animals you eat.

Besides, since I am taking this woman's assertions at face value, I'll assume she meets and exceeds the USDA requirements. Its not like its hard, as you pointed out. And I'd rather have the pathetic USDA regulations than breeding operations go underground . . .

[bubbatd]

Every State has their Breed Clubs and screens breeders .

[Lilavati]

Every State has their Breed Clubs and screens breeders .

Of course they do, and that would be my first suggestion to someone looking for a puppy.

Don't mistake me. This is not the best way to get a dog, its not even a good way. But the nature of our culture, and probably of people in general, is such that they will not be willing to jump through the hoops

(And there can be a lot of hoops . . . I know someone who can not get a German Shepherd puppy because she has a six year old child. No rescue or shelter will adopt to her, and no reputable breeder in the area will sell because of the kid. Fortunatley, she said she'd wait rather than get a dog from a mill . . . but most people have neither that much sense or that much patience. In fact, many people would be so ticked off that they'd get a puppy from a pet store just to spite the 'breeders')

and wait the time required to get a puppy from a responsible breeder. Therefore, they will buy from other sources. My only point is I'd rather see operations like this then the horrific, filithy conditions that tend to prevail when breeding operations go underground. I'd also rather see this than a lot of BYBs who are just utterly clueless. As long as the demand is there someone will fill it. We can protest all we want . . but the demand will be filled . . . My only point is on the great scale of filling the demand of the ignorant for puppies, I'd rather see this kind of operation (assuming the woman is honest on her website) than many other kinds.

Its sort of like abortions (more flames!) I'd rather they not happen at all, (I'd rather they not need to happen!) but if they are going to happen (and they will) I'd rather it be in a doctor's office than a back alley.

[Vivien]

I didn't have much time to look at the site so I don'y have an opinion yet. However, where does she get her prices from ...from what I saw the puppies ranged from 500-2500. Does she pull the price out of a hat?? Lol
At least the people that but these dogs have the money to care for them.

[Lilavati]

I didn't have much time to look at the site so I don'y have an opinion yet. However, where does she get her prices from ...from what I saw the puppies ranged from 500-2500. Does she pull the price out of a hat?? Lol
At least the people that but these dogs have the money to care for them.

That's pretty much the going rate for 'special' puppies .. . interpret 'special' in whatever sense you want.

Or just call it the market price . . . what people are willing to pay.

[Melissa_W]

Horrible breeder, but I love the merle poms!

[Sweet72947]

Of course they do, and that would be my first suggestion to someone looking for a puppy.

Don't mistake me. This is not the best way to get a dog, its not even a good way. But the nature of our culture, and probably of people in general, is such that they will not be willing to jump through the hoops

(And there can be a lot of hoops . . . I know someone who can not get a German Shepherd puppy because she has a six year old child. No rescue or shelter will adopt to her, and no reputable breeder in the area will sell because of the kid. Fortunatley, she said she'd wait rather than get a dog from a mill . . . but most people have neither that much sense or that much patience. In fact, many people would be so ticked off that they'd get a puppy from a pet store just to spite the 'breeders')

and wait the time required to get a puppy from a responsible breeder. Therefore, they will buy from other sources. My only point is I'd rather see operations like this then the horrific, filithy conditions that tend to prevail when breeding operations go underground. I'd also rather see this than a lot of BYBs who are just utterly clueless. As long as the demand is there someone will fill it. We can protest all we want . . but the demand will be filled . . . My only point is on the great scale of filling the demand of the ignorant for puppies, I'd rather see this kind of operation (assuming the woman is honest on her website) than many other kinds.

Its sort of like abortions (more flames!) I'd rather they not happen at all, (I'd rather they not need to happen!) but if they are going to happen (and they will) I'd rather it be in a doctor's office than a back alley.

I understand what you're saying, and agree partially.

As a sidenote, if your friend is still willing to consider rescue, tell her to check out foha.org. We adopt to families with kids of all ages, and we have a few nice GSDs right now. ;)

[Lilavati]

I'll definately forward it to her . . . I"ve looked at your site before . . . You do good work :D Didn't know about the kids rule! That's great that someone still does that.

[chanda]

I worry for those dogs that are in puppy mills some of them dont get any veterinary care.

http://pet-planet.blogspot.com/2007/09/puppy-mills.html

[Lilavati]

I worry for those dogs that are in puppy mills some of them dont get any veterinary care.

http://pet-planet.blogspot.com/2007/09/puppy-mills.html

That is something of my point. Again, I'm assuming this woman is as she presents herself: her dogs get care, love and attention. (and yes, I know that's a big assumption). Do I know for a fact that it is possible to have a very large number of dogs and care for them properly. I would rather have someone running that kind of "commerical" operation: pumping out puppies, but with medical care, some check on genetics (if only by not breeding the unhealthy), advice for purchasers, and a clear fondness for the animals, than the sort of nightmares that they've been calling "comerical" operations here in Virginia, which bear a closer resemblance to canine concentration camps than to breeding facilities.

I'm not really supporting this kind of operation. I'm simply observing that there is a market for such things, and markets are filled . . . one way or another. The only way to try and prevent it is onerous legistlation, which A) always nets poeple you don't want it to, and B) when there is money to be made, simply drives it underground.

If a neighbor, against my advice, bought I puppy from this woman, I would probably shrug and say, well, your choice and good luck. And oh, that's cute puppy, can I pet him?

If the same neighbor got one from a pet store, or the shadier type of BYB, or the type of mills that have been being busted around here, my first reactions would be "My god, what were you THINKING?!?" followed by insisting we get the little creature to a vet right NOW. I'll drive. Let's go. And I hope you're prepared for housetraining issues . . .

To me there's a difference between disapproving and being struck dumb with horror.

[~Tucker&Me~]

The merle's are oh so pretty. Shame they are from such a disgusting breeder.

~Tucker

[FoxyWench]

unfortunately in the internet world you cannot take ANYTHING for face value...

from personal expereience...a fancy website makes room for people to make the most...hope for the best, and assume since the site is nice and she "seems" like she cares then the breeder must.

however these are BIG buisnesses, they sell puppies by the ton to whoever buy them...
puppymills have the NICEST sites because they can afford to cover it up with fancy pictures lots of nice graphics and sparkle...
youd be suprised at how discusting these places are behind the scenes and usda lisencing means NOTHING...the mills in misourie, the amish puppy famrs ect are ALL USDA lisenced and we all know what those places are like when you get into the barns and auctions...

a flashy website means nothing...
the parents arnte health tested any more than the dogs at mills...or shown... and in order to keep that many dogs and litters contained there IS caging going on...plain and simple...it wouldnt suprise me if this was a small barn or farm setup...its a comercial kennel...hidden behind alot of flash! and unfortunatly wiht the expansion and popularity of the internet, there are more and more of these terrible places setting up flashy websites and relying on pretty pictures.
these places ARE puppymills...the only difference between these places and the amish farms are these folks have spent the money on a fancy web site...

[Lilavati]

unfortunately in the internet world you cannot take ANYTHING for face value...

from personal expereience...a fancy website makes room for people to make the most...hope for the best, and assume since the site is nice and she "seems" like she cares then the breeder must.

however these are BIG buisnesses, they sell puppies by the ton to whoever buy them...
puppymills have the NICEST sites because they can afford to cover it up with fancy pictures lots of nice graphics and sparkle...
youd be suprised at how discusting these places are behind the scenes and usda lisencing means NOTHING...the mills in misourie, the amish puppy famrs ect are ALL USDA lisenced and we all know what those places are like when you get into the barns and auctions...

a flashy website means nothing...
the parents arnte health tested any more than the dogs at mills...or shown... and in order to keep that many dogs and litters contained there IS caging going on...plain and simple...it wouldnt suprise me if this was a small barn or farm setup...its a comercial kennel...hidden behind alot of flash! and unfortunatly wiht the expansion and popularity of the internet, there are more and more of these terrible places setting up flashy websites and relying on pretty pictures.
these places ARE puppymills...the only difference between these places and the amish farms are these folks have spent the money on a fancy web site...

I did say I was making the assumption she was up front. I have known, as acquaintances (not the sort of people I'd really make friends with, to be sure), people who have operations that are similar to what this lady claims, so that sort of half-decent mass breeding operation exists. And I know from personal experience that is certainly possible to have a very large number of dogs and care for them properly. I make no claim that she is what she says . . . I was really making a philosophical/ethical point: that there's shades of grey in this issue. She may the worst sort of puppy-miller, but for the sake of arguement, I just took as a premise that she was as she presented herself.

I would tell anyone who was thinking of getting a dog from such a place (if I couldn't talk them out of it, and I would try!) that it is an absolute MUST to go in person and demand to see everything, and if not permitted to do so, to walk away without a glance back. I'm well aware what websites can hide . . .

Also, remember my point wasn't that this was fine, simply that the demand for puppies will create mass breeding operations, and short of onerous legistlation, I don't see any way to avoid that. So, I'd rather have hypothetical breeders who are actually as this woman claims to be (clean, healthy--if not tested--stock, some socialization, etc) over nightmare dog Auschwitzes or deeply clueless BYBs.

You'll have to forgive me, but my state has seen too much of the horror shows recently . . . its made me more tolerant of the alternatives, even if I find them distasteful.

[ihartgonzo]

You'll have to forgive me, but my state has seen too much of the horror shows recently . . . its made me more tolerant of the alternatives, even if I find them distasteful.

Honestly, I cannot agree with you LESS... I can understand where you're coming from, but apathy won't solve anything.

What's the difference between this "breeder" and a filthy puppy mill? The filth, maybe. You really don't know what kind of situation the parents of those puppies are living in, as it's pretty easy to clean up a puppy for a picture. In both cases, the dogs are suffering from neglect - mental, if nothing else. One person, even several people, cannot possibly provide for the emotional & social needs of hundreds of dogs and puppies at once. The bottom line is, they are pumping out massive numbers of puppies for the sake of greed, which is never ever ok.

[blue]

With only one exception I will stick with mutts.

[Lilavati]

Honestly, I cannot agree with you LESS... I can understand where you're coming from, but apathy won't solve anything.

What's the difference between this "breeder" and a filthy puppy mill? The filth, maybe. You really don't know what kind of situation the parents of those puppies are living in, as it's pretty easy to clean up a puppy for a picture. In both cases, the dogs are suffering from neglect - mental, if nothing else. One person, even several people, cannot possibly provide for the emotional & social needs of hundreds of dogs and puppies at once. The bottom line is, they are pumping out massive numbers of puppies for the sake of greed, which is never ever ok.

I don't view it as apathy, but rather has a conscious public policy decision. I've not said its ok. (its not) or that we shouldn't critique it (we shoudl), only that one way or another, this will go on. I've also said I am taking the woman at face value for the sake of arguement . . . I DON'T know what this "breeder" is actually like, and have said so numerous times. I haven't a clue. I'm assuming she's telling the truth ONLY for the sake of argument.

I'm making the lesser of two evils argument: it may be wrong, but its better than the alternative. Its not that I don't care, its that I have come to the conclusion that the demand for puppies will cause them to be cranked out one way or another. As a practical matter, I don't see a way to stop it (I'd like to, but I just don't see a way to do it). Since it IS going to happen anyway (and it will) I'd rather see large, but clean and halfway "responsible" breeders out there than filthy puppy mills and BYBs. I really never meant to get into this debate . . . I was mostly just making an observation . . . that the deman for puppies (and the puppies that people believe they want) will be satisfied . . . we can have it in the open (and thus subject to regulation, including local laws that are stronger than the USDA) or we can drive it underground. There is a difference (though it can be a fine line, I confess) between apathy and pragmatism. In my mind, apathy would be throwing my hands up . . . pragmatism is . . . can we arrange an inspection of this woman twice a year? Oh, and do we have puppy lemon laws? Unfortunately, I see no way to legistlate love.

[Lilavati]

After thinking about this while feeding Sarama, I'm going to try to lay out my argument like this:

People want dogs. This is a good thing. Dogs are good for people, psychologically and emotionally. We want people to want dogs.

We also want them to want dogs because we have dogs, and our biggest protection against BSL and other restrictions are a voting public that has and likes dogs.

But people, being people, want certain kinds of dogs. Sometimes for practical reasons (lifestyle) some times because humans are status seeking animals. This won't change.

Because people want certain kinds of dogs, they will seek out purebred dogs. And because we are status seekers (and living in a consumer society) people will seek what they consider to be the perfect dog, which includes not only breed, but gender, color, etc.

There are more people who want dogs than the kind of responsible breeders that we advocate on this board can possibly produce. Sending people who want dogs to shelters sometimes works (Sarama has been a poster child for rescues in my neighborhood) but many times, they want the type of dog they want. And they are not willing to wait. They want that puppy for Christmas, or the kid's birthday (yes, this is ill advised, but that's what they want). People will spend their money on what they want. That's the foundation of a capitalist society.

Therefore, they will buy puppies from breeders who are less than ideal. (For reasons I won't go into here, we can not legistlate ideal breeding practices . . . there's too much that goes into them and the legistlators are far to ignorant for it to ever work)

Since people will buy puppies from less than idea breeders, then we have to decide what sort of less than ideal breeders we wish to tolerate. Unless we want to tolerate them all. It is possible to legistlate against out and out abuse . . .and it is possible with spay/neuter laws and liscensing to prevent some backyard breeding. But unless we want to try to prevent all dog breeding (at which point it will go underground) we will have to have enough give in the laws that some less than responsible breeding will slip through.

With all this in mind, people like this woman CLAIMS TO BE (and I don't say she is, all I did was skim her site . . . I don't know her, and I don't really care to) are a preferable way to satisfy the demand for puppies than the sort BYBs (who know nothing and care nothing) who dump their unsold suppies at shelters (see the story about the Boxers elsewhere on this site) and filthy puppy mills. Not to mention pet stores.

We don't live the world we'd like to. In the world I'd like to live in, everyone who breeds dogs adores their breed, selects for health, temperment and at least a close approximation of the breed standard. In the world I'd like to live in most people get their dogs from shelters, unless they have a reason to need a specific breed. I don't live there. I'd like to make the world a better place, to be sure, but I also know that 1) You can only change so much, and human nature is not one of those things, and 2) Passing laws to help a situation can often have the effect of making it worse, or creating a problem you didn't think of.

Do I approve of this woman? No. I don't know her, but I don't approve of the scale of her business, even if she does run it as she says. Will I hunt her down and spit on her? If she is as she says, no, I wouldn't. Would I suggest to animal control that they should poke their heads in? Yes. Would I recommend someone get a dog there? Hell no. Do I think she should be put out of business, IF she is as she says? Alas, no. I might like that, but there will be another, and possibly something worse, to take her place.

People want puppies. People will buy puppies. Since we live in a generally free and capitalist society, they will buy puppies they want. For practical reasons, the best we can do, other than education (the best we WANT to do, in a legal sense, but that's another argument) is to prevent abuse. Moreover, our energies should be dedicated (since we have limited resources) to preventing and punishing abuse.

You can condemn people like this (be my guest) but at some point you have to throw up your hands and say, well, I don't like it, but its not THAT bad. It could be a lot worse. Pardon me while I go throw the #$@#$% in jail that are raising puppies in filthy wire cages and scaming their customers into thinking they are purebred.

I could also make a libertarian argument, but I'll spare us all :)

[Herschel]

ALTHOUGH SEVERAL OF MY PUPS ARE SHOW/BREEDING POTENTIAL I PREFER TO PLACE THEM IN PET HOMES TO BE LOVED AND SPOILED. I HAVE PLACED A FEW IN SHOW AND BREEDING HOMES BUT ONLY TO SMALL HOBBY BREEDERS. I WILL NOT SELL TO LARGE BREEDERS, BACKYARD BREEDERS OR PUPPY MILLS!!

Looks like she doesn't want any competition.

[FoxyWench]

my personal opinion is supporting the lesser of "two evils" like this is simply encoraging pther bybs and mills to continue because "if i have a flashy website why is it not ok for me"
instead force these places out of buisness by making it VERY publically known that this place is MOST likely just like every other mill with a flashy site.

if we can get places like these out of buisness (because thats what it is...a buisness...) people will find their supply elsewhere, we continue this untill as many as possible of these people are out of buisness and peopel have no option but to adopt or wait for a respectable breeders litter...

we as a race (and the american nation in general) have become so demanding, they EXPECT that if they have the money and they want it they can have it now...my entire picture of our race as a whole (not including thirdworld) is of a nation of seemingly spoilt brats..."i want it now" what is needed if a huge lesson in patients for the right causes...

but with ANY support for places liek these, that will never happen because "i want it now" is rewarded with "well i have it for you!"

sigh, im just rambling...
it just drives me crazy, the internet is a wonderfull tool, however its too easy for terrible places to put a flashy face on things...

convenience alone is making the world worse.

[Kayota]

THe merles are being marketed as rare and are WAAAAY overpriced... they should be priced the same as the rest :\

[Lilavati]

my personal opinion is supporting the lesser of "two evils" like this is simply encoraging pther bybs and mills to continue because "if i have a flashy website why is it not ok for me"
instead force these places out of buisness by making it VERY publically known that this place is MOST likely just like every other mill with a flashy site.

if we can get places like these out of buisness (because thats what it is...a buisness...) people will find their supply elsewhere, we continue this untill as many as possible of these people are out of buisness and peopel have no option but to adopt or wait for a respectable breeders litter...

we as a race (and the american nation in general) have become so demanding, they EXPECT that if they have the money and they want it they can have it now...my entire picture of our race as a whole (not including thirdworld) is of a nation of seemingly spoilt brats..."i want it now" what is needed if a huge lesson in patients for the right causes...

but with ANY support for places liek these, that will never happen because "i want it now" is rewarded with "well i have it for you!"

sigh, im just rambling...
it just drives me crazy, the internet is a wonderfull tool, however its too easy for terrible places to put a flashy face on things...

convenience alone is making the world worse.

I agree with you that I wish the internet could not be used to sell dogs . . . but again, that would hit legitimate breeders who are trying to get the word out to those looking for them, about their working standard poodles, or whatever unusual (but ethical) thing they have.

Note I was taking her website at face value, but that's because its the source of info I have. I certainly hope, since she had a kennel license, that someone inspects her facility. If for some reason I lost my mind I wanted to buy one of her dogs, I'd call her, and then visit in person.

But such things existed before the internet, they just used the classifieds.

What really, really worries me, is the people (and our Pom breeder here does this) is the ability for someone to shop for, buy and have delivered a puppy from across the country without ever laying eyes on it. Although that has happened legitimately for years (my father's top gun dog was bought that way, though through word of mouth and not the internet), throw in the internet and people are ordering dogs like they are ordering sweaters. That is deeply alarming. I'm not sure if I blame the breeders, or the idiots who are willing to buy a dog that way for the problem, and I can't think of a way to addresss it, except to point out as often as possible that you don't buy a living thing that will live 14 years and inhabit your home without knowing a BIT more about it . . . not if you have any sense.

As for the merles being overpriced . . . well, yes . . . and they are rare: I've never even heard of a merle pom before this thread. That's what the market will support for them I guess. As a personal matter, I agree with you, but I don't think anyone denies she's doing this to make money (I suspect that's how she makes her living). Should she charge more for them? As matter of principle, no. But I can't really blame her for doing so if people will pay those prices. If that's how she makes her living, a couple of those pups pay the property taxes!

[FoxyWench]

the merle marking is not considered "RARE" its harder to breed correctly due to the chances of double merles and health problems...however they are NOT rare...

just as a blue chihuahua shouldnt cost more than a black and tan chihuahua ect...

[Lilavati]

the merle marking is not considered "RARE" its harder to breed correctly due to the chances of double merles and health problems...however they are NOT rare...

just as a blue chihuahua shouldnt cost more than a black and tan chihuahua ect...

I'm aware of the genetics of merles.

I'm not saying its 'rare' in the sense that its a freak mutation . . . I'm saying its rare because there are few merle pomeranians out there . . . because few people breed them for whatever reason (I can think of many). I suspect if, for some reason, I had my heart set on a merle pom, I would have a very limited selection of breeders, where as if I wanted a ordinary (sable? not sure of the name for the color in poms) brown one or a black one I'd be able to find one within days, or from a good breeder in a matter of months or weeks.

I do agree with you in prinicple, but on the other hand, if a color is hard to find and in demand, people will pay more for it, and I can't really hold it against someone to take advantage of that if that's how they make their living. To take a breed I know slightly better, red poodles are in demand, and are harder to find. Therefore, they often cost a more. That's just market economics. All issues of puppy mills and commerical breeders aside, I really don't blame the responsible breeders of red poodles for charging more . . they can, people will pay it, and they have to work harder to turn out good poodles from the more limited stock available.

In principle, color simply shouldn't matter. But it does to many people and they will pay for it. Unfortunately, color is a major excuse for puppy mills to breed bad dogs at outrageous prices . . . BUT if you breed good dogs of an unusual (but legitimate) color, I really don't see why you shouldn't charge what the market will pay for them or at least charge a premium. Does this woman breed good dogs worth $2500? Almost certainly not, even if she is what she claims . . . but charging extra for merles would be the least of my issues with her.

[OutlineACDs]

The only thing that I see that wasn't pointed out is the fact that it really isn't that hard to get a dog from a responsible breeder.

What's hard is showing them that you are dedicated. When I started showing, it wasn't easy to get my hands on a nice dog. A breeder trusted me with one of her dogs, and when I took that dog, and cared for it, showed it, health tested it etc, the other breeders/exhibitors realized that I was serious. When everyone realized that I was dedicated to my dogs, and loved them, it was much easier for me to get my foot in the door with different people. I have been offered other puppies/older dogs, but I'm not ready for another yet. When I am, it will be a matter of picking out which lines I like and contacting the person. Through showing etc, I have met others in different breeds who would probably sell me one of their dogs if I asked. Those breeders also know that I wouldn't refer anyone to them who I didn't trust.

Most of these people who contact responsible breeders say, "Hi, I'm so-and-so and I want a blue merle pomeranian." It sounds much better if you say "I was researching breeds and joined my local kennel club to learn more, through my kennel club I met so-and-so, and they referred me to you." A lot of serious breeders who have long waiting lists won't reply to the first e-mail because there is no background info there. If you don't appear knowledgable in your first e-mail, phone call, letter, etc you probably won't get much response. I guarantee that 98% of puppy inquiries never follow through. This is why responsible breeders aren't likely to reply to these e-mails.

JMO

[FoxyWench]

totally agree with you outlineACD's

[Lilavati]

totally agree with you outlineACD's

I will second that. When I think about it, you're right. And, of course, that's how I would contact a breeder . . . not, "hey, do you have a color-breed that I can buy" . . . but "I've been looking into your breed and . . . "


But that means those of us who have dogs, and know them well, have an advantage when it comes to getting a good dog . . .what are people who don't have those advantages going to do . . . even if they would be good owners . . . let alone the people who, alas, will never really 'get it' . . . they'll sit get dogs from somewhere . . . and unless they are truely horrible owners . . . we can't prevent them from getting dogs.

I really didn't mean to turn this into so much of a debate. Responsible breeders are the way to go. I would never recommend anything else. On the other hand, it can be a little difficult, if you don't have a history with dogs, to get in the door. Moreover, most people don't know enough, or care enough, to jump through the hoops. And sometimes, the hoops are stupid (no kids!). So they get dogs elsewhere . . . some elsewheres are much, much worse than others. That was really all I meant to say when I started musing on this woman and her very cute, but somewhat scary dogs.