agility contact zones

[corgipower]

i know there are a number of people here who do agility, and i have no doubt many of you understand the importance of contact zones. but i just need to get this said.

the contact zones are there for more than just qualifying. they are a real safety issue. please make sure in your foundation training that you make your dog solid on the contact zones.

ares started his agility training when he was a pup. as he grew and as he did more agility, it became clear that he had huge amounts of potential as an agility dog. he loved it. he was very talented, and i was becoming more skilled as a handler. but i underestimated the contact zone training early on and then struggled to fix his problem of missing the contacts. he DQ'd a number of times for missing the contacts. but that was ok, there was always another chance to trial, and besides we still had fun, which was the most important thing.

and i was wrong.

when ares was four, we were practicing agility, and he missed the down side contact on the a-frame. his nose was the first thing that hit the ground. he never fully recovered from the neck injury, never was able to continue agility training, and had to be retired from obedience at the age of six.

i'm by no means an expert when it comes to agility training, but i hope that someone can learn from my errors and misjudgement.

[BostonBanker]

What a scary experience! I'm so sorry your boy had to go through that.

After months of being so slow (naturally cautious) that she never once missed a contact, Meg's drive turned on and she started missing some this summer. I pulled her out of the rest of our planned trials for the fall, and we are currently doing as many reps a day as we can (about 100+) on a plank, at least 5 days a week. My whole agility class has been retraining contacts (I refer to the class as Contacts for Dummies), and we'll hopefully be ready to go again come late winter.

[Melissa_W]

I'm so sorry about what happened to Ares. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[adojrts]

What a scary experience! I'm so sorry your boy had to go through that.

After months of being so slow (naturally cautious) that she never once missed a contact, Meg's drive turned on and she started missing some this summer. I pulled her out of the rest of our planned trials for the fall, and we are currently doing as many reps a day as we can (about 100+) on a plank, at least 5 days a week. My whole agility class has been retraining contacts (I refer to the class as Contacts for Dummies), and we'll hopefully be ready to go again come late winter.

SMART!!!!!!!!!!!! So many people don't, so many people settle for 'good enough' and that attitude bites them in the butt. Btw, you would go to the head of the class in my books and you also wouldn't be in a class called Contacts for Dummies.......rather a class called The Wise Handlers Class!!!!!!

Corgipower, you are absolutely correct!!!!!!!!! It is first and foremost a safety issue and getting some people to understand that can be very frustrating. People just want to 'run agility' and don't understand, nor do they want to understand why foundation skills and proper training is so important.

Take care and kudos
Lynn

[Dekka]

So true. And with some dogs contacts are a never ending process. Dekka is fantastic, holds a great 2o/2o at home, or in fun matches. But I must 'feel' different to her at a trial....

Kudos to you for calling attention to this issue.

[mrose_s]

I've only started training contacts with Buster in the last few months, long way to go yet. I tried with the 2o2o thing but it doesn't seem to click at all.

[adojrts]

I've only started training contacts with Buster in the last few months, long way to go yet. I tried with the 2o2o thing but it doesn't seem to click at all.

Are you training with a trainer or on your own? How have you taught the
2o2o?
I am sure there are many of us here that would be happy to help you figure out how to get solid 2o2o's. There are absolutely a few things that make or break this method of contacts.

Take care
Lynn

[Dekka]

LOL now that I own an amazing dog, but one who is not a solid in cometition as I would like, I will never relax my criteria for a contact behaviour again. At her first trial, she was soo wound up and didn't stop on the contact (our trained behaviour) and I continued. Now she thinks contacts are optional at trials. It gets very expensive to train this now (17.50 a run)

So mrose_s you really really want a good contact behaviour. It doesn't have to be a 2o/2o but it has to be clear to the dog. Zo downs on the contact with her nose in the grass. There is also the 1rto (one rear toe on) and the four on the floor (a down right after the contact) It is totally worth the time and effort it takes to train it. Now it is the first thing I start teach puppies after come and sit.

[Lissa]

Excellent thread... I couldn't agree more - contact training is vital and so often overlooked.
And I too am so sorry about Ares injury and early retirement! :(

so many people settle for 'good enough' and that attitude bites them in the butt.
People just want to 'run agility' and don't understand, nor do they want to understand why foundation skills and proper training is so important.

My thoughts exactly. Many handlers seem to think that running courses in competition is the one and only ultimate goal and want to get there as fast as possible. Conditioning, training and handling seem to be after thoughts.
What stopped me from following agility teams from class was an article by Kim Collins about evaluating whether your dog was trial ready... What has always stayed with me about it is she thinks every dog should be able to run at the highest level you plan on competing at before you enter your first trial.... Her requirements sounded extreme and daunting but after attending numerous novice trials as an observer I know where she's coming from!

I trained Dodger with 2o2o. There were no exceptions...until I went to a fun match and let my competitive side take over. I wanted to finish clean and quickly and didn't reinforce the 2o2o pause I usually expected. Luckily Dodger never started missing the contacts (because he had so many proper reps behind him) but he did stop pausing... So we've pretty much transitioned to running contacts.
Contacts are something I never stop training and reinforcing - I still bring targets out!

[adojrts]

Excellent thread... I couldn't agree more - contact training is vital and so often overlooked.
And I too am so sorry about Ares injury and early retirement! :(



My thoughts exactly. Many handlers seem to think that running courses in competition is the one and only ultimate goal and want to get there as fast as possible. Conditioning, training and handling seem to be after thoughts.
What stopped me from following agility teams from class was an article by Kim Collins about evaluating whether your dog was trial ready... What has always stayed with me about it is she thinks every dog should be able to run at the highest level you plan on competing at before you enter your first trial.... Her requirements sounded extreme and daunting but after attending numerous novice trials as an observer I know where she's coming from!

I trained Dodger with 2o2o. There were no exceptions...until I went to a fun match and let my competitive side take over. I wanted to finish clean and quickly and didn't reinforce the 2o2o pause I usually expected. Luckily Dodger never started missing the contacts (because he had so many proper reps behind him) but he did stop pausing... So we've pretty much transitioned to running contacts.
Contacts are something I never stop training and reinforcing - I still bring targets out!


I remember that article!! I do believe it was in Dog Sport a few years ago. I agree it was excellent.
I also think it depends on the dog, if you have a 'steady eddie' that just runs beside you, then trialing can come earlier than for those with speed demons. Now having said that, it doesn't mean that both types of dogs shouldn't be trained with all the skills needed and trained to a higher level than what they are going to compete. It just usually takes longer with those speed demons.
And just because a novice handler has to work so hard on their timing and footwork, nothing like doing a FC at a dead run!! Often trying to remember what happened during one of the runs is hard because everything happened so fast, plus it takes a few minutes for you to catch your breath. I think the body starts to rest and the brain now has O2 to remember :D

[BostonBanker]

Maybe you guys can answer the question I have - I've gotten a bunch of different answers from different people (I know, surprising-dog people with differing opinions!).

I'm trying hard to get this right. We are doing a million reps (2on2off, training with a target). But when we go out and compete again, how do you enforce your criteria in the ring? Say your dog gets going, is having a nice course, and then misses the dogwalk down contact. What do you do now?

[Dekka]

With Dekka, I stop the run. Right then and there. She loves the game so much continuing is a huge reward for her. Same if she breaks her start line stay. She is perfect at home...

[corgipower]

nothing like doing a FC at a dead run!!

what's FC?

[adojrts]

what's FC?

FC is a Front Cross.

[Dekka]

FC= Front Cross

[BostonBanker]

With Dekka, I stop the run. Right then and there. She loves the game so much continuing is a huge reward for her. Same if she breaks her start line stay. She is perfect at home...


That's the answer I tend to hear. My trainer's argument (and I tend to agree, at least with my dog) is that stopping the run means your dog leaves the ring with you - and that going with you should never be something that could be considered 'punishment'. I know it wouldn't work with Meg - agility will never mean as much to her as just being with me, because she isn't an intense, drivey dog.

[corgipower]

stopping the run means your dog leaves the ring with you - and that going with you should never be something that could be considered 'punishment'.

it's the not being able to continue on to the next obstacle that is the "punishment." and when you leave with your dog in this situation, you do so in a neutral manner. you don't give your dog praise and attention, just "come on, we're done here" as opposed to at the end of a successful run, where you leave while praising and playing with the dog.

[BostonBanker]

I do think I 'get' what it is people use it for - I'm just not sure it works for all dogs (or even most). I do know for my dog, anything other than "oh my god, you are amazing, what a super job!" sort of enthusiasm will cause her to not want to play anymore. Can you say soft;)?

The whole reason she's missing the contacts now is because all the drive and joy and enthusiasm we've built up into this soft, cautious dog is now over-riding the minimal contact training I've put into her. That's my mistake for not training it better in the beginning. I never imagined we would need it! That "let's go" attitude is critical to me, and I'm not willing to risk losing it. And even in her pumped up mode, leaving the ring with me will always be her #1 reward, whether I'm cheering her on or just calling her to follow.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to argue! Like I said, I think I understand the 'why' of the training technique; I just don't think it would work for us. I'm curious if people have other techniques they use. The suggestion I've received (and will likely use) is to not do any correction/ending the run/ignoring etc., even if she misses the contact in the ring. Keep running and letting her think she's a genius. I'll give it 2 or 3 trials to see if our new training sticks, and if not, we pull from trials and train more at home.

[corgipower]

ahhh i get ya now, BB. i'll let those with more experience answer though.

[adojrts]

What about training her with stride regulators? There is an excellent DVD out by Barb Davis on this method. It's an easy method to train. You certainly wouldn't have to worry about shutting her down nor would she lose all that drive that you have worked so hard to get.

Lynn

[BostonBanker]

What about training her with stride regulators?

:lol-sign: I'm so indecisive about these sorts of things. I think that's why none of the earlier contact training stuck (well, that and, as I've said, I never did enough); I went through about 4 different techniques in a year before I was forced to choose one, the deal being we would stick with it until Feb. and then re-evaluate.

Right now, I'm training the 2o2o using a small square of bathmat as a foot target (because I screwed that up and taught her to foot target instead of nose). We've done about a month so far on the plank, back and forth, and she is definitely driving for it and doing a very clear two-paw slam onto the mat. We did it flat for about 2 weeks, then with one end raised a bit. I've also been using stairs, mounting blocks, stall entryways, horse jumps, and anything else I can find. There's been a very clear change in how she approaches the target on two levels like that. She started off getting to the end (ex: last stair), pausing, and then slowly putting her front feet down. She can now do it without a pause, even on the higher mounting block steps. I have no idea if it is physical strength that has improved, or understanding of the behavior, or confidence. Something does seem to be working!

I think this week in class we are going to try it on a full-sized, but very low dogwalk and start trying to transfer it over to actual equipment.