Ok, so do you train with or without treats? I'm confused... Need opinions.. [Archive] - Chazhound Dog Forum

PDA

View Full Version : Ok, so do you train with or without treats? I'm confused... Need opinions..


Spirit2010
10-27-2007, 08:38 AM
Well, I burrowed a video from the library on dog training, and the guy said, all you need is your voice for training. And the dog of course. And three tones of voice also.

Command
Correction
Praise

Thats it. So which do you guys think is better, treats for training, or praise? I'm confused. Because there are soo many different ways. Thank you for reading!

houndlove
10-27-2007, 08:45 AM
If you want to motivate your dog to work without the use of threatening him with pain if he doesn't, you need to find something your dog really loves. For most but not all dogs this is food treats. But some dogs have certain toys that they would die to get a chance to play with. Praise is a mild motivator for some dogs, but mainly because it's been conditioned in the dog that that tone of voice means something good is likely to head it's way some time soon. If you used a "paise" tone of voice and then smacked the dog a few times right after, you'd make your dog afraid of praise, not motivated by it.

People who poo-poo using motivators in dog training just don't understand the proper way to use them. They usually think we're bribing our dogs and that we have to keep treats on our person all the time for the rest of our lives in order for the dogs to do anything. This is not at all the case. Rewards are used when teaching a new behavior. Once the behavior is learned, you start to slowly fade out the treats until they're gone completely (well, gone nearly completely---if you stopped rewarding in any way for a behavior forever and ever, after a while you'd see the behavior go away because there's no longer any reason at all for the dog to perform it).

Dogs understand two things: "good for me", and "bad for me." Those are the two options you've got working for you when you train a dog. You can either train so that performing becomes "good for me" or you can train so that not performing becomes "bad for me". I prefer the former because in order to convince a dog that not performing is "bad for me" you have to be willing to punish in a way that makes an impression, and I am not willing to do that.

Spirit2010
10-27-2007, 08:49 AM
Ok, I'd rather do the "good for me" tactics. That was good info! Thank you!

houndlove
10-27-2007, 09:15 AM
Pat Miller's book "The Power of Positive Dog Training" is extremely popular and your library may have it (ours does--but I live in a large city with a huge public library system). I've seen it also sold at PetCo and PetSmart. It's very easy to understand, outlines what positive training is all about and why it works, and then takes you through a "course" of several weeks long that goes from basic obedience to fun tricks and more advanced work, step by step, with pictures. I highly recommend it.

Goldendoodler
10-27-2007, 09:27 AM
I think it depends on the dog, if their food-orientated or respond better to your voice, or at least thats how all my puppies are trained.
Personally, I think praise should be backed up with a treat or toy, or maybe even a trip to the park ect, because when you praise they think they're going to get a reward, and ussually they respond to you more when you do this because before it had a really positive outcome.

Lizmo
10-27-2007, 09:55 AM
I agree with Golden. Different dogs need different things. Some have a high food drive and are willing to obey with a voice praise and treat. Other dogs like hearing their owner's voice and obey with just that.

But with all things, I think there comes a time when treats need to be only given some of the time, but the dogs needs to obey all the time.

Spirit2010
10-27-2007, 10:08 AM
Alright, thank you! Would it be alright if there is a treat used twice in training? If they knew it really well, and then cut down to one treat after the session? With praise of course. On review things, such as Sit, Stay, Down. Things like that?

smkie
10-27-2007, 10:15 AM
WE never used treats at the kennels. WE trained obedience, and field work. I do not like to use treats for i believe that it causes the focus to be on the food and not on you. YOu do not need to train with pain ever, praise has been more then enough for every dog i have ever worked with. THere is one exception..sit pretty.

lilprairiemutt
10-27-2007, 10:34 AM
*sarcastic bull sh** alert,LOL*

Of course don't forget, if your dog is a puppy then you shouldn't go anywhere near it for the first six months so that you don't inadvertantly train it. Purina said so.

Goldendoodler
10-27-2007, 10:47 AM
LOL.
Spirit, do whatever works with your dog.It might take ages, but eventually they will just do as thier told without expecting untold treats.

Maxy24
10-27-2007, 11:07 AM
With treats it is important to wean them off. You basically do this by, once the dog knows the command and performs every time, being more picky. So say you're teaching sit. The dog sits every time you say sit, you give a treat every time. Now what you would do is only give treats when the sit is as fast as you would like, stop giving treats for slow sits (still give verbal praise). If you desire for the sit to be in a certain position (facing you directly, not sideways or anything) start only giving treats for fast and correctly positioned sits, continue verbal praise for the others. So basically work your way down to the perfect sit in your mind. Then you can begin to completely wean them off of treats by only giving every once and a while throughout the session (make sure those times are never when the dog does sloppy sits) and eventually none at all. Make sure your verbal praise is still there.

As far as whether or not to use treats...I think they are great. I just think it is important that the dog see them as a reward and not a bribe (with some behaviors it is ok to use them as a bribe to begin but transition them to a reward as quickly as possible) and that they learn that the seeing the treat is not the only time they will get them, in fact they are more likely to get a treat when they don't see it (treats should be held out of the dog's sight when you give a command).

I also believe that treats are not always the most appropriate reward. For instance a dog that jumps up when he greets you really wants attention. The proper reward to train that dog not to jump will be attention, he will get it when he sits or behaves. For a dog that pulls on walks the proper reward would be walking, when he does not pull his walk continues, when he does it stops. For a puppy that nips the proper reward is usually play, he does not nip playing continues, he nips playing ends. Plus some dogs are more toy motivated than food motivated so using a small play session as a reward instead of a treat works great for them. SOME dogs even care enough about physical petting to be used as a good reward. I have not met any who will perform for simply verbal praise without being weaned from treats first or unless there is a painful/fear inducing/uncomfortable result if they do not obey. I'm not saying that certain dogs don't respond to it, I'm just saying I've never met any who do.

corgipower
10-27-2007, 11:28 AM
i use treats, toys and verbal praise. my praise is very enthusiastic. a lot of people have a hard time praising a dog in a way that the dog understands that it is praise. my dogs are very willing to work for the praise alone. i use treats to fine tune position and as a quieter reinforcer when the praise might be overwhelming. i use toys when i need a super strong motivator, if i'm training difficult exercises, and i use a toy at the end of the session as a reward for the entire training routine. i did have a dog that didn't take treats in training and didn't want a toy, but he lit up with praise.

Xerxes
10-27-2007, 11:43 AM
Thats it. So which do you guys think is better, treats for training, or praise? I'm confused. Because there are soo many different ways. Thank you for reading!

I train with and without treats. I use play, praise, food and everything else I can as a motivator.

elegy
10-27-2007, 11:58 AM
i use whatever works for the dog i'm training- food, play, toys, pets, praise (though praise is a pretty low level reward).

i absolutely second the recommendation of picking up a copy of pat miller's book. pam dennison's idiots guide to positive dog training is another good one. they both lay out when and how to fade rewards, how to make rewards the most effective, the difference between a reward, a lure, and a bribe and when it's appropriate to use all of those things. good stuff, and all in user-friendly layout.

corgipower
10-27-2007, 12:31 PM
(though praise is a pretty low level reward).

for my guys praise is higher level than food. and mine are total chow hounds. i have seen them spit out the food or completely ignore it when i praise. then again, when tyr was younger, and starting his protection work, i couldn't praise him while he was biting, because he would come off the sleeve and come over to me. so i guess it's something in the way i give praise.

houndlove
10-27-2007, 01:55 PM
Use whatever motivates your dog, but you have to find something that really motivates the dog and gives him a good reason to work. What that thing (or several things) will be will differ for every dog, but every dog needs a reason to work. A lot of people operate under "my dog should work for this" assumptions. But what you think your dog should be happy working for and what your dog actually is happy working for may be two different things. Sometimes people get personally offended if their dog doesn't work for their praise. It isn't personal. It's not a shortcoming of you or your dog. It just doesn't ring the dog's bell and that's fine, find something that does ring his bell.

Cheetah
10-27-2007, 02:25 PM
I train using treats, but then I phase them out once the dog knows the command.

Purdue#1
10-27-2007, 03:34 PM
i don't use treats ever. I want my dogs doing the commands because i said so not because they are going to get a treat or think they are going to get a treat. Bribery/luring are the same thing in my book.

CelticxConnections
10-27-2007, 04:00 PM
Depending on the dog I use differnt things as a reward.

Baron is a dog that simply loves to be praised, patted, and told he's pretty. If I'm just doing some practice obedience with him I'll just use praise as a reward because he loves it. However there are times I feel its easier to use treats to train him. Generally when I'm training him something new such as a bow. No amount of praise or coaxing is going to lure him into that silly posistion, a treat will do it very fast though. Also a treat every one in a while with praise is a cool reward (come on, if you stopped at stopsigns and got a cookie once in a while you would be more motivate too).

Gimli really doesn't care for praise and toys don't really seem to great if it means work. If you have food though he will do darn near anything.

Duke is not really praise motivated and he use to focus on his toy more than the command when he was younger. I found food mixed with praise was the best and now that he's settled down a little I can replace the food with a toy if I want.

Zoom
10-27-2007, 04:22 PM
I use treats for some things, praise for others and "life rewards" for still others. Those are the things like say, chasing a squirrel...the dog REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to go chase that squirrel, there is nothing more on his mind right now than that squirrel. If they perform the behavior I ask for (and provided it's an appropriate time and space for them to do so) then they get to go chase that squirrel. Or like today, we were out at the park and Virgo wanted to REALLY REALLY REALLY go play in the creek and found a hole in the fence. She came back immediately when called because she's learned that quicker obedience at the park means she get to go play in the water.

So basically, I vary and switch it up. I taught my Aussie what "front" meant in about 10 minutes using some really good treats, to the point that he would "front" so fast he would do a sliding stop into the correct position. After that, I pretty much just quit using treats altogether, because for him, praise is such a huge motivator after he knows he knows the behavior that I don't have to keep them on me. My lab responds well to praise, but if we're learning a new behavior (she has a huge "why should I?" streak) then treats make things go a lot faster, then she as well will work well for praise or a toy. I very rarely carry treats on me at all. It's not necessary at this point.

BostonBanker
10-27-2007, 04:42 PM
While I often use rewards other than just treats (playtime, access to something else she wants, a toy, etc), I don't ever stop using treats entirely. I probably could with many of her behaviors...but why? She likes treats - they are a great reward for her. I like to give my dog things that make her happy, especially after she's done something to please me. I just can't seem to comprehend why treats get such a bad rap. Yes, wean your dog off of the notion that you get a treat every time. My dog can go out and do a 15 + obstacle agility course, and never once turn to me expecting a treat, but it doesn't mean she doesn't get them in training.

I love it when my boss praises me and compliments the work I do. I have a ton of respect for him. But let me tell you, if I didn't get a decent paycheck as well, I wouldn't be dragging my butt out of bed to go into work in the middle of winter!

elegy
10-27-2007, 05:19 PM
i don't use treats ever. I want my dogs doing the commands because i said so not because they are going to get a treat or think they are going to get a treat. Bribery/luring are the same thing in my book.

of course they are. in your book. but not in the books of those who are knowledgeable about learning theory.

i expect my dogs to do what i ask because i said so, also, but i also reward them because it's the best way i know of for letting them know that yes, that is what i wanted, and that i appreciate their efforts.

Boemy
10-27-2007, 05:55 PM
It depends on the dog. For my dog praise was the best reward. After she already knew a command, I would give her treats, not every time, but occasionally. But it was the "GOOD dog!!" that really got her tail wagging.

IliamnasQuest
10-27-2007, 06:33 PM
It all boils down to each individual dog and what motivates that particular animal. A good, flexible, savvy trainer will use a large variety of motivators.

I remember the days when I was told that using food was bribing the dog, and that dogs should mind JUST because we told them to (and evidently they were to live to please me). I successfully trained some dogs that way, but the behaviors I got from them were not nearly as enthusiastic and in competition, the dogs burned out much earlier than the dogs I trained later using a large variety of rewards.

Food is no more a bribe to a dog than a paycheck is to those of us who work (as BostonBanker already mentioned). There aren't many people out there who are willing to work for a minimal reward. While dogs don't think "I have to earn this amount in order to pay for this item" - they do require a certain amount of reward in order to retain and repeat behaviors (or a certain amount of compulsion in order to avoid a behavior). Dogs do what works for them, plain and simple. Yes, they can be forced into behaviors by use of pain/fear/discomfort, but as the saying goes - you get what you pay for. If you're stingy and you only want to use minimal rewards, you'll get a dog that works with minimal desire. If you use rewards that are very exciting to the dog, you've increased the dog's desire to work for the reward.

It's very hard for people who have never properly trained using a high level of motivation to understand what a difference there is between the two concepts. They will defend vehemently that their dogs are motivated, enthusiastic, and happy. But when you've trained both ways, you see an obvious difference in the attitude of the dog and the longevity of the behaviors.

There are some dogs who really enjoy praise. But praise, alone, becomes dull compared to using a variety of rewards (treats, toys, running the dog out the door to pee on a bush, whatever). And if you want to train a breed like the chow, you better have an aresenal of motivators at hand! *L*

I often hear the old "well, if you train with treats then the dog won't ever work unless you have treats on you". That's just not true. If that's the way it turns out, then the trainer has made some serious mistakes. Properly done, using treats and other highly motivating rewards will result in a dog that eagerly responds whether you have a treat or not. And if you use treats to help increase the motivational level of praise and petting (by pairing them together) you can teach a dog to enjoy praise and petting more than it would normally.

"Silly trainer...Treats are for tricks!"

This is exactly the type of quote that proves a person's lack of understanding of dog behavior. Why would treats be for tricks and yet not for other training areas? A behavior is a behavior - the concept of what is a "trick" and what is an "obedience command" is purely in the mind of a human. To the dog, they're just responding to a set cue with a behavior that has been linked to the cue. I don't view teaching my dog to heel as any different than teaching my dog to roll over - they're both merely trained behaviors.

If a person is willing to use a treat for "tricks" and yet not for other behaviors, they're just being hypocritical. Maybe there's some macho "I don't wanna bribe my dog" crap going on, but that's all it is. And for those who teach their dogs tricks using treats, what does the dog tend to offer you freely when not given a command? Most dogs are going to offer the behaviors that are the most fun for them - which is whatever behavior is the most highly rewarded. People tend to give more treats for silly behaviors, and when a dog starts offering behaviors you'll see them sitting up, spinning circles, barking, raising the paw, etc. - the behaviors that get them the most treats.

Anyway, to the OP .. *L* .. use what works for YOUR dog. Some dogs are not particularly food motivated. My shepherds love toys and Trick was often rewarded in the winter by a thrown snowball. The chows would probably be most highly rewarded if I let them chase and kill something, but there ARE limits to what I'll use as a motivator! *L* So we use food rewards and good deep scratching in the thick fur (something my chows love, and my shepherds hate).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Zoom
10-27-2007, 07:25 PM
Well, really when you think about it, what is obedience other than tricks that we've attatched a mountain of importance to? So yeah, in that case, treats are for tricks. ;)

I always ask people if they've trained their dog to do anything like shake or sit pretty and then ask which behavior their dog is more likely to do on the first command. "Sit" or "shake"...and usually shake wins out. Because it was fun for the dog to do and it's nothing but fun for the dog to continue to do it. So the dog offers that behavior willingly consistantly and joyfully, even without treats, and everyone is happy. Try training the rest of your behaviors that way and see what happens.

Purdue#1
10-27-2007, 07:47 PM
of course they are. in your book. but not in the books of those who are knowledgeable about learning theory.

i expect my dogs to do what i ask because i said so, also, but i also reward them because it's the best way i know of for letting them know that yes, that is what i wanted, and that i appreciate their efforts.

no. not that book. the other book I have. its called a Thesaurus and works really well.

I reward too with sincer praise and petting. Sorry but treats are bribery no matter what you call them, if you hide them so your dogs apparently "don't know" they are there, or if you phase them out and give them a treat just every once in a while.

Zoom
10-27-2007, 08:21 PM
Well isn't praising bribery too? "Do what I ask and you'll get petted instead of being dealt a measure of pain?"

EVERYTHING is bribery at a basic level. Some of us just enjoy making our dogs happy to work instead of making them relieved that they avoided a painful correction.

houndlove
10-27-2007, 08:51 PM
This BS is also why some breeds have gotten the reputation of being "untrainable". A dog who does not care about praise, no matter what kind of squeaky voice you use, and you refuse to use any other kind of motivator and who shuts down, sulks and refuses to move the second you apply any kind of force--what would you do with such a dog?

Hounds languish in shelters and are euthanized by the thousands because they have gotten the reputation for being "dumb" and "untrainable" because by and large they do not work for praise and they do not cooperate if you start trying to use force with them. They shut down, sulk, and become immovable objects. This "don't ever use anything but praise" crap has doomed thousands of dogs to death becuase some people just can't get over the fact that the majority of dogs don't want to be your slave working just for a kind word from you. And because people take that personally for some reason that I just can not fathom, the dogs get dumped in shelters.

I'm pretty excited though because I just ordered a real dead raccoon tail to use as an alternate motivator for Marlowe. I'm going to stuff it in a jackpot tug toy and see how he likes them apples! He's not toy motivated because most toys don't really activate his prey drive. But the smell of dead coon ought to do something for him!

dogoviz
10-27-2007, 09:45 PM
I use treats for some things and not for others. If it is training I use treats always in the beginning, I always use some kind of treat for recalls. I do not use treats for behaviour issues. Example would be if I ask the dog to get off the couch, and I know the dog understands the command to get off the couch, I would not use a treat to get the dog off the couch. I would expect him to just move.

SarahFish
10-27-2007, 09:50 PM
Personally, I think treats are good for training. But as you (hopefully) progress quickly with the training, cut back on them, or ask the dog to do a string of commands before a reward, or just substitute every second or third treat with a "Good Dog (or it's name).
At the moment I am doing heaps of training with my dog, and I'm trying to do this. I've noticed that the treat definitely motivates them to do stuff, especially if they really like it.
However, some people will think differently, I think it all depends on the dog-owner relationship.

elegy
10-27-2007, 10:16 PM
I'm pretty excited though because I just ordered a real dead raccoon tail to use as an alternate motivator for Marlowe.

from where? luce would LOVE that.

Purdue#1
10-27-2007, 10:56 PM
[QUOTE=houndlove;888554] This "don't ever use anything but praise" crap has doomed thousands of dogs to death becuase some people just can't get over the fact that the majority of dogs don't want to be your slave working just for a kind word from you. And because people take that personally for some reason that I just can not fathom, the dogs get dumped in shelters.
QUOTE]

for your info our methods Have Saved a lot of dogs from shelters and death.*GASP* The trainers They went to were all P+ trainers and told them to put the dog down. Dog clubs have told some of them to put the dog down because of its aggressiveness. Any dog can be trained wether it be pit, ott, hound, shepherd,etc. Some might be a little tougher than others, but they are all the same: dogs.

I don't use a squeaky voice to praise my dog either. that IS annoying.
If i told you what i would do with a dog refusing a command you wouldn't read it so there is no point in me typing it. waste of energy.

DanL
10-27-2007, 11:21 PM
A few lashes from my stave is all the motivation my dogs need. They snap to attention when they see the stave. One time I caught one of them giving me the finger while my back was turned, but they didn't know I could see their reflection in the glass door. That dog got many a lash that night, and I made him sleep outside in the rain chained up to a tire. That dog was my best dog ever after that night.

Zoom
10-27-2007, 11:43 PM
Dan, oh is that what I'm doing wrong? I just make mine sleep in the tub after a whipping...maybe I should make them sleep outside balanced on the railing?

I know I'm wasting precious time and energy here on Purdue, but for the others that are reading this thread...it's up to you whether or not you want to use treats. They work for some dogs, they don't work for others. It's also up to you to find a good trainer who can help you with your issues and doesn't have to resort to beating a dog to get it to do what is asked.

silverpawz
10-27-2007, 11:51 PM
If you are enforcing known commands so the dog knows it's not optional, but ALSO rewarding good responses with food....how can you be against that? What harm can the treats possibly do?

They are just a reward.

Purdue, if you spent a week training exactly the way you are now, doing exactly what Richling tells you, but you also reward those extra good responses with a little tidbit every now and then (not even every time) I bet your dog will be even more excited about training with you then he already is. And wouldn't that be a good thing?

You've got nothing to loose. You're still enforcing those commands, there is no chance your dog won't obey, right? So why not make him even happier to do so?

Saintgirl
10-28-2007, 08:44 AM
A few lashes from my stave is all the motivation my dogs need. They snap to attention when they see the stave. One time I caught one of them giving me the finger while my back was turned, but they didn't know I could see their reflection in the glass door. That dog got many a lash that night, and I made him sleep outside in the rain chained up to a tire. That dog was my best dog ever after that night.

LMAO!!

Purdue, if you spent a week training exactly the way you are now, doing exactly what Richling tells you, but you also reward those extra good responses with a little tidbit every now and then (not even every time) I bet your dog will be even more excited about training with you then he already is. And wouldn't that be a good thing?

You've got nothing to loose. You're still enforcing those commands, there is no chance your dog won't obey, right? So why not make him even happier to do so?

Great point! What do you have to lose Purdue? Maybe a little faith in your own training methods?

IliamnasQuest
10-28-2007, 09:34 AM
I'm pretty excited though because I just ordered a real dead raccoon tail to use as an alternate motivator for Marlowe. I'm going to stuff it in a jackpot tug toy and see how he likes them apples! He's not toy motivated because most toys don't really activate his prey drive. But the smell of dead coon ought to do something for him!

Ahhh, neat idea for a motivator!

I was watching Khana today as she played with a chunk of thick bark (the kind used in decorative outdoor areas) - she pounced on it, threw it around, made huge leaps over it, grabbed it and shook her head, dropped it and rubbed her face on it - she was just like a cat with a mouse. Chows tend to be really "into" little rodents and I was thinking "I wonder where I could get the skin from a mouse carcass" .. *LOL* .. it would be the same kind of thing as the raccoon tail for your dog. Khana would go ballistic for something like that!

Melanie and the gang

AgilityPup
10-28-2007, 10:10 AM
Might be a little late, but for me, even with a dog I am TRYING to get toy motivateed, not treat motivated, there are some things I use treats for (contacts, recalls, downs, stays etc.) and some I use toys for (weaves, ect) but then there are some things, if we're working over and over on, I use my voice until I say it's time for a treat, at the end. That way my dog isn't always expecting a treat :)

Good luck!

Dekka
10-28-2007, 10:23 AM
LOL it is so true about finding the motivator for your dogs. After owning JRTs for so long, I am sooo used to dogs who really don't give a rats ass for praise. Its not valuable to them. (except the one that was abused/neglected..praise was a marker that meant no punishment was coming. She was my only dog that ever worked for praise) The whippet puppies how ever will work for praise and a pat. It funny really, and it astounds me every time they do it. I still play tug and give little treats when training. But they will repeat behavior for a pat on the head :yikes:

Very good point about the diff between a trick, and an obed behaviour is all in the mind of the human.

And yes positively trained dogs can be as reliable as force trained dogs. It just takes a bit more effort on the part of the trainer. Really I think it is laziness as much as ignorance of learning behaviour that keeps people from trying to positively train their dogs.

houndlove
10-28-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm getting that coon tail from Clean Run. They actually have a whole host of real fur tug and jackpot toys. One of them is a jackpot tug toy but it's made out of rabbit skin on top of the nylon. They have a lot of natural sheepskin/wool ones as well, and one that's a bumper tug toy that has raccoon hair in the stuffing for it. I had a hard time deciding!

So, here's my question. If dogs trained with motivators other than praise are so inferior to dogs trained only with force and praise, how come so many of the top dogs in competitive obedience, rally-o, agility, and freestyle are positive-trained? You can't use any kind of rewards other than praise in those events (and in obedience not even praise). So how come those dogs perform? Are their owners actually secretly out back beating them with staves in between matches? Or could it be that, correctly done, positive rewards-based training works to create a dog who is accurate, enthusiastic, obedient and happy to work even when treats or other motivators are not present? Here's several pages of multiple clicker-trained perfomance champion dogs: http://www.clickertraining.com/honorroll_test Some of these dogs have so many titles after their names they don't even fit on one line. So, if that style of training doesn't work, explain this, please.

Dekka
10-28-2007, 11:43 AM
http://www.clickertraining.com/honorroll_test Some of these dogs have so many titles after their names they don't even fit on one line. So, if that style of training doesn't work, explain this, please.

They can't, so they won't.

I have JRTs that win in obed. Even have a few HITs and have won the obed at the JRT Can Nats 2 years in a row (there wasn't any this year) Kaiden is one leg away from his CDX and runs masters games/advanced standard in agility. But my positive accomplishments don't mean squat to some people :rolleyes:.

elegy
10-28-2007, 01:46 PM
I'm getting that coon tail from Clean Run.

awesome! i just ordered one. and a tshirt that says sit. stay. find me a boyfriend. bwahaha!

MafiaPrincess
10-28-2007, 02:03 PM
I know a lady with a jrt who bought a clean run coon tail she tied onto the end of a riding crop so she can have it in front of her dog. They love it, Cider goes crazy for it. I destroyed an old rabbit fur hat I had and Smudge loves to tug and play with the pieces. Cider on the other hand turns her nose up. Poor girl has snobby tastes.

ihartgonzo
10-28-2007, 05:57 PM
From the get-go, I've trained my dogs with a variety of rewards. Sometimes it's a treat, sometimes it's a toy, sometimes it's praise. The most important thing as that whatever it is, they are highly motivated and focused on ME... and I want them to consistently & quickly respond to commands, whatever the reward is.

Xerxes
10-28-2007, 06:36 PM
i don't use treats ever. I want my dogs doing the commands because i said so not because they are going to get a treat or think they are going to get a treat. Bribery/luring are the same thing in my book.

My well behaved dog is glad that I don't have the same book that you do.

BostonBanker
10-28-2007, 07:29 PM
I wonder where I could get the skin from a mouse carcass

Offer Khana's services to a mouse infested barn for a while?;) Meg caught one just today while we were at work - something tells me it wouldn't ship well, though!

adojrts
10-28-2007, 07:45 PM
Coon and Fox tails can usually be purchased from most Furiers, check your local listings. I purchase coon and fox tails by the bag full and the price is typically about $20.00 for the bag of about 25 tails. Also check your Grandmothers closet for an old fur coat and start cutting!! (second hand stores oftne have them cheap as well..........lots of tugs per coat!!)
And if you really want them to tug on the fur, go to your local hunting store and purchase some fox or coon scent, use a couple of drops with equal portions of glyercine and put it on the tug.

Lynn

noludoru
10-28-2007, 07:49 PM
I use whatever is available. For Middie often me putting on his collar is a reward for him, because he associates that with going outside (it's a low-level reward, though), and I can ask him to do something else for me to put on the leash, and do something else for me to open the door, wait for me to go out so then he can, etc. I do use treats, as good ones are motivators. Toys are a BIG thing around here... a cuz or ball or tug toy is practically heaven. So whatever he will work for is what I use.

A few lashes from my stave is all the motivation my dogs need. They snap to attention when they see the stave. One time I caught one of them giving me the finger while my back was turned, but they didn't know I could see their reflection in the glass door. That dog got many a lash that night, and I made him sleep outside in the rain chained up to a tire. That dog was my best dog ever after that night.

LMAO! Standing ovation for that one.

Bribe
1. money or any other valuable consideration given or promised with a view to corrupting the behavior of a person, esp. in that person's performance as an athlete, public official, etc.: The motorist offered the arresting officer a bribe to let him go.
2. anything given or serving to persuade or induce: The children were given candy as a bribe to be good.

Lure
1. anything that attracts, entices, or allures.
2. the power of attracting or enticing.

A Thesaurus lists the synonyms of words. Synonyms are words with similar definitions, but are not quite the same, such as bribe and lure. When trying to prove whether something is the same or not, most of use dictionaries. Common sense helps, too.

adojrts
10-28-2007, 08:02 PM
Look down lol

adojrts
10-28-2007, 08:12 PM
[QUOTE=Purdue#1;888725][

for your info our methods Have Saved a lot of dogs from shelters and death.*GASP* The trainers They went to were all P+ trainers and told them to put the dog down. Dog clubs have told some of them to put the dog down because of its aggressiveness. Any dog can be trained wether it be pit, ott, hound, shepherd,etc. Some might be a little tougher than others, but they are all the same: dogs.

QUOTE]


You have said this before and I asked you before PROVE IT, find the hard facts and PROVE IT. ( you didn't before and I highly doubt you will this time either)
The last study I saw, stated that many dogs ended up in shelters for aggression because NOTHING had been done with them as pups, NO TRAINING and the dog had lead a life of EVERYTHING IS FREE ( a permissive home), once the dog reached maturity and was no longer a cute little pup, people started expecting that same dog to behave and the dog backed up its position with some/alot aggression. I will see if I can find that study and I ll post it. And don't confuse a permissive home with a dog trained in +R, not the same on any level.

Also luring and bribery ARE the same BUT they are NOT the same as CORRECT REWARD based TRAINING.

BTW saw your little OB video...........how long have you been training now??? 4-5 months?--------dog doesn't know the job, had to be asked twice and was VERY worried about making a mistake, which it did.

Purdue#1
10-28-2007, 09:10 PM
[QUOTE=Purdue#1;888725][

for your info our methods Have Saved a lot of dogs from shelters and death.*GASP* The trainers They went to were all P+ trainers and told them to put the dog down. Dog clubs have told some of them to put the dog down because of its aggressiveness. Any dog can be trained wether it be pit, ott, hound, shepherd,etc. Some might be a little tougher than others, but they are all the same: dogs.

QUOTE]


You have said this before and I asked you before PROVE IT, find the hard facts and PROVE IT. ( you didn't before and I highly doubt you will this time either)
The last study I saw, stated that many dogs ended up in shelters for aggression because NOTHING had been done with them as pups, NO TRAINING and the dog had lead a life of EVERYTHING IS FREE ( a permissive home), once the dog reached maturity and was no longer a cute little pup, people started expecting that same dog to behave and the dog backed up its position with some/alot aggression. I will see if I can find that study and I ll post it. And don't confuse a permissive home with a dog trained in +R, not the same on any level.

Also luring and bribery ARE the same BUT they are NOT the same as CORRECT REWARD based TRAINING.

BTW saw your little OB video...........how long have you been training now??? 4-5 months?--------dog doesn't know the job, had to be asked twice and was VERY worried about making a mistake, which it did.

1. How would using a treats show faith in our methods?
2. sorry the physical proof is here, in our dogs and their masters. Its not typeable unless you can teleport people and dogs through the internet.common sense
3. i don't remember on any of the vids i posted double commanding or correcting my dog. He had a perfect stay on one and on the other before the time warp had flawless sits and downs.
4. a title proves nothing to me. I don't care how long a dog's name is. The competition is in a small ring with nothing but dogs and he smell of food to distract them. BIG woopty doo!:rolleyes:

now let me go through the thread so i don't leave out any questions....hmmmmm...no......not there...the silly dictionary thing.......I really need to get a new stave......boring.......nothing there............ Dekka is a slave to her dog........treat trainers have no backbone.......sly needs more chips in his diet.....nothing here.............................................. ............

adojrts
10-28-2007, 09:33 PM
[QUOTE=adojrts;889402]

1. How would using a treats show faith in our methods?
2. sorry the physical proof is here, in our dogs and their masters. Its not typeable unless you can teleport people and dogs through the internet.common sense
3. i don't remember on any of the vids i posted double commanding or correcting my dog. He had a perfect stay on one and on the other before the time warp had flawless sits and downs.
4. a title proves nothing to me. I don't care how long a dog's name is. The competition is in a small ring with nothing but dogs and he smell of food to distract them. BIG woopty doo!:rolleyes:

now let me go through the thread so i don't leave out any questions....hmmmmm...no......not there...the silly dictionary thing.......I really need to get a new stave......boring.......nothing there............ Dekka is a slave to her dog........treat trainers have no backbone.......sly needs more chips in his diet.....nothing here.............................................. ............

Prudue, it was the video that your dog was cowering to you during the sits/down, which you did ask twice because the dog DIDN'T go down all the way, and it was at an agility trial.

And what are you babbling on about Tiltes for?? and how long a name is??

Btw, I keep asking for proof of dogs in shelters and how they got there, I have no need nor desire to see your methods, been there done that, moved on to BETTER methods.

Purdue#1
10-28-2007, 10:15 PM
I NEVER double commanded him on sits and downs. I just watched the video. he was not cowering either.

yep you really saw the behavior there. He was really cowering when i was telling him down and he was going on a down.

houndlove
10-28-2007, 10:32 PM
Titles don't mean anything? Because the dog is alone in the ring? (except the long down stay in obedience of course which is done right next to other dogs) Have you been to a match? Just because another dog isn't up the performing dog's butt doesn't mean that dog is working with no distractions. The last show I went to they were simultaneously running agility in one ring, jumpers in the next ring, rally-o across the way and next to that obedience. Dogs and people everywhere.

How, then, would you evaluate for Companion Dog or Utility or Rally? So that it meant something, to your high exacting standards?

And frankly, for the good of my soul, I'd rather be the slave than the slave-owner.

malmo
10-28-2007, 10:38 PM
Pat Miller's book "The Power of Positive Dog Training" is extremely popular and your library may have it (ours does--but I live in a large city with a huge public library system). I've seen it also sold at PetCo and PetSmart. It's very easy to understand, outlines what positive training is all about and why it works, and then takes you through a "course" of several weeks long that goes from basic obedience to fun tricks and more advanced work, step by step, with pictures. I highly recommend it.

I agree with this book recommendation. I read it recently, and found that most of the best advice I've heard and read seems to come straight from its pages. I could have saved myself a lot of time and read it long ago.

silverpawz
10-29-2007, 01:03 AM
Purdue, you never answered my question. Here's a copy of my previous post just in case you missed it.

If you are enforcing known commands so the dog knows it's not optional, but ALSO rewarding good responses with food....how can you be against that? What harm can the treats possibly do?

They are just a reward.

Purdue, if you spent a week training exactly the way you are now, doing exactly what Richling tells you, but you also reward those extra good responses with a little tidbit every now and then (not even every time) I bet your dog will be even more excited about training with you then he already is. And wouldn't that be a good thing?

You've got nothing to loose. You're still enforcing those commands, there is no chance your dog won't obey, right? So why not make him even happier to do so?

And no, I'm not trying to harrass you. Unlike some folks I don't think you're a hopeless case. I think you love your dogs very much and it's obvious you are trying to do what you think is best. I just think you've been given bad information and simply refuse to believe that right now.

I just hope that you'll have an open mind some day, like you want others to have about the methods you use. It goes both ways.

Zoom
10-29-2007, 01:17 AM
Does anyone else get a kick out of watching Richling post via Purdue?

Purdue#1
10-29-2007, 06:54 AM
A treat I believe is something that is freely given. My dogs don't need to work for it in order to get their toy or food. they will get it anyway wether they are good or not. i give sly a piece of my steak or sandwich sometimes. he gets it no strings attached. You want to use treats, that's fine, i just see no point in using them.

Saintgirl
10-29-2007, 11:14 AM
Purdue, seriously, I'm not flaming you here, I'm offereing you some information on behavior modification if you are interested. I know the titles of some modern university used books that are easy and informative to read. They discuss the use of rewards to increase behaviors and make them more reliable. I am not saying drop your methods, I am only wondering why you have discredited certain methods without understanding the foundations and the evidence behind them? There are many ways to train a dog, many ways that work, but some are kinder than others.

silverpawz
10-29-2007, 02:33 PM
Ok, you know what? You haven't even answered my question despite being asked twice and despite that fact that I'm trying to be nice to you.

I give up. Go abuse your dog and call it training. I'm done.

Purdue#1
10-29-2007, 05:02 PM
well here's the answer to your question even though i had already answered it:

i won't be using treats the whole life of my dog so there is no reason to start now. He knows the commands and what is asked of him. Don't you phase out treats completly once the dog knows the command or do you use for the entire life of the dog? I'm confused.

Zoom
10-29-2007, 05:05 PM
Do you use a prong collar the entire life of the dog? Or don't you phase that out eventually as well? Why start using a prong now if you won't be using it the entire life of your dog?

Cheetah
10-29-2007, 05:22 PM
If you continue to treat a dog constantly throughout its life, then you're not doing it right. Once the dog learns the behavior, they really don't need treats all the time.

Both my dogs will do anything I ask, without me having to "bribe" them with treats. And I DID train with treats. And if I am training something NEW, I DO use treats. After they know each command, I phase out the treats. I also use life rewards (if you want your meal, you have to sit, if you want outside, you have to wait, if you want to chase the ball, you have to down).

So there is nothing wrong with training with treats if it is done right.

Dekka
10-29-2007, 05:28 PM
To say you need treats the whole life of the dog, shows that the person doing it, doesn't have a good grasp on training. Conversely if you train with a corrective type collar, if the dog has to wear it for its whole life, you are not training correctly.

Purdue#1
10-29-2007, 06:07 PM
All collars and leads are eventually taken off the dog so they will no longer need a lead or collar EVER. Sly is right now where he has a tab on. he does long sit and down stays now. I will make a vid. it might be better to explain to you.

silverpawz
10-29-2007, 06:13 PM
All collars and leads are eventually taken off the dog so they will no longer need a lead or collar EVER. Sly is right now where he has a tab on. he does long sit and down stays now. I will make a vid. it might be better to explain to you.

Then what the heck is difference in using treats? You're not making any sense you realize that right?

The training collar is ok to use because it will eventually stop being used? But treats are not ok even though they will eventually stop being used. How is that logical?

Cheetah
10-29-2007, 06:16 PM
Then what the heck is difference in using treats? You're not making any sense you realize that right?

The training collar is ok to use because it will eventually stop being used? But treats are not ok even though they will eventually stop being used. How is that logical?

I agree. I also don't understand the logic.

Whisper
10-29-2007, 06:42 PM
Ditto. I'm not quite sure I understand where you're coming from, either.

Lizmo
10-29-2007, 06:47 PM
My dog can do long stays, downs, or sits. I can tell her to stay from a distance and go down. She heels perfectly. Sits everytime I stop while heeling. She knows millions of tricks.

All while using treats.

And *gasp* looks FORWARD to obedience training!

houndlove
10-29-2007, 09:16 PM
Purdue I'm not sure how many times we have to say this before you stop being confused (because honestly I think thus far every post in this topic has explicitly said this, but you seem to like the big shouty sized letters so here):

TREATS ARE PHASED OUT!

We use them for the same sort of reason you use those correction collars: to teach a new behavior and then proof it to make it reliable. You phase your collars out, we phase our treats out. The difference is only that we use something to motivate our dogs to want to perform and you use something to make the dog afraid to not perform.

heartdogs
10-30-2007, 07:35 AM
It's a myth that you shouldn't use treats for the life of your dog. But, you need to think of the rewards not as "treats" but as reinforcers. A reinforcer is ANYTHING that causes behavior to continue to happen. So, it's really about what your dog thinks is reinforcing, rather than what you think he should be reinforced by.
I use tons of roast beef, liver, chicken, turkey, etc. when I am training my dogs to do a new behavior. Do I carry liver in my pocket for the rest of my life? No. I don't have to, because I've done such a good job convincing my dogs that I "pay" for what I like. They never quite know, once they have achieved fluency in a behavior, when that reinforcement will come, but they know it's a sure bet it will - at some point. So, they continue to offer the behavior I like - and I "pay" this time with a pat, that time with a toy, maybe the eighth time with food, etc. Can my dogs make it through an agility course without food? Of course they can. Do they expect food every time I say "sit" or they won't sit? Certainly not.
If you embrace the principles of operant conditioning, you can train successfully with food, without pain, and without encumbrance from all the myths about your dog wanting to please you. He really wants to please you, sure, but he's more motivated most of the time to please himself. Dogs do what works - it's one of the things that helps you survive in the wild. So, if we make training work for the dog, instead of insisting that it only work for us, we get a dog that really does want to please us - because he gets something out of the deal, too. How long would you go to work without a paycheck? Sure, I know there are some altruistic volunteers, but if you never even got a thank you, or saw any result from your labor, then how long would you participate. Your cheerleader attitude would eventually become lackadaisical. Google "extinguish" & operant. It's one reason why ignoring the dog that is jumping on you works better than shoving a knee in his chest or screaming "off".
You don't need to carry food forever, just in the beginning. You don't need to carry a clicker forever (but most of us want to - you never know when you might "capture" a great behavior), and you don't need to resort to forcing your dog to do anything if you can figure out what motivates him. A great sit/stay might be built by doing it at the doorway - and reinforce it with the release command as you open the door. No food involved there. But, if you think you can train a dog just by your voice, I think you will be disappointed. You either reinforce or you ignore or you correct. Personally I like to reinforce (reward) good and ignore bad (extinguish).
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/primer.htm

heartdogs
10-30-2007, 07:38 AM
Then what the heck is difference in using treats? You're not making any sense you realize that right?

The training collar is ok to use because it will eventually stop being used? But treats are not ok even though they will eventually stop being used. How is that logical?

It's really simple. Treats don't hurt your neck.

Lilavati
10-30-2007, 08:08 AM
Although I do use a training collar (gently, very gently) its purpose is mostly to get her attention in situations when she's hopelessly distracted. I don't use it around home or on walks around the neighborhood. I don't need to.

I frankly can't imagine training a dog without treats. Why would I work without a paycheck? And when you are just starting out, especially with a rescue, why the heck would they work for praise? You don't mean anything to them yet. Treats do get phased out, but they are a form of reinforcement, and they are much nicer to use than jerks and yanks. Why use force when you can use something positive? I think there's something deeply Puritan in this 'no treats it spoils them' mentality . . . anything good must be bad. Force is better than willing co-operation. I don't often agree with PETA on anything, but when I see someone jerking their dog around, never rewarding them, only disciplining, it does look a lot like slavery to me. Sarama works for a living, but she gets paid for it. And hot dogs, jerky and string cheese come pretty cheap compared to her friendship and her eagerness to work with me and be trained. When I come out in the morning with a clicker and treats, she's iching to go. Why? Because its fun, because she'll get paid. When she'd rather not work, she does anyway, because she knows she'll get something yummy for her co-operation, even if she'd rather chew on a bone, lie in the sun, or chase a squarrel. She also knows that if she does do those things, she won't get a treat, in fact, she'll likely be told 'uh-uh' and ignored in the yard for an hour or two. Since she'd MUCH rather be with me, it works just fine.

I know why I go to work in the morning and it doesn't have a **** thing to do with being yelled at.

DanL
10-30-2007, 11:35 AM
I frankly can't imagine training a dog without treats. Why would I work without a paycheck? And when you are just starting out, especially with a rescue, why the heck would they work for praise? You don't mean anything to them yet. Treats do get phased out, but they are a form of reinforcement, and they are much nicer to use than jerks and yanks. Why use force when you can use something positive?

1st- I'm not taking sides here....

I can fully imagine training without treats. You have to understand what motivates your dog and use that. My GSD Gunnar could care less for treats while training, and while he'll take them, it takes him literally 30 seconds to eat a pea sized tidbit, which breaks our momentum. For him it's all about a toy reward, and we can do several tasks and then reward at the end of those tasks with some tug or ball play. He will go nuts when I show him his tug, and his commands are done with speed and enthusiasm, much more when I show him a cookie. I use a prong collar on him. The only time he's corrected with it is when he refuses to do a command that we have proofed- meaning, he's been taught the command and he has been exposed to increasing distraction and still performs the task as requested. Prime example- on the protection field, he's in high drive, he wants the decoy bad. He's put in a down/stay. If he makes a motion toward the decoy, he gets corrected. Most of the time it's a verbal, because it's faster for me to react that way, and 99% of the time he'll drop back down again. His leash is hooked to his harness, with a small traffic tab hooked to the prong. The only way he'd get a prong correction would be if he ignored the verbal, and engaged the decoy, he'd be pronged off of the decoy. Once he was taken back and put in a down, and he listened, then he'd be rewarded with a bite.

Daisy is 100% food motivated, so we use treats for teaching her new tasks. She's also toy motivated, and I can slip obedience in when she's playing fetch- things like long downs while I toss her ball away as a distraction, and then release her to go get it, stuff like that.

I think everyone's ultimate goal is to phase out whatever motivators you need. I also think that doing certain tasks, like running the agility course or things like that, I will always give a toy reward for.

Lilavati
10-30-2007, 06:23 PM
1st- I'm not taking sides here....

I can fully imagine training without treats. You have to understand what motivates your dog and use that. My GSD Gunnar could care less for treats while training, and while he'll take them, it takes him literally 30 seconds to eat a pea sized tidbit, which breaks our momentum. For him it's all about a toy reward, and we can do several tasks and then reward at the end of those tasks with some tug or ball play. He will go nuts when I show him his tug, and his commands are done with speed and enthusiasm, much more when I show him a cookie. I use a prong collar on him. The only time he's corrected with it is when he refuses to do a command that we have proofed- meaning, he's been taught the command and he has been exposed to increasing distraction and still performs the task as requested. Prime example- on the protection field, he's in high drive, he wants the decoy bad. He's put in a down/stay. If he makes a motion toward the decoy, he gets corrected. Most of the time it's a verbal, because it's faster for me to react that way, and 99% of the time he'll drop back down again. His leash is hooked to his harness, with a small traffic tab hooked to the prong. The only way he'd get a prong correction would be if he ignored the verbal, and engaged the decoy, he'd be pronged off of the decoy. Once he was taken back and put in a down, and he listened, then he'd be rewarded with a bite.

Daisy is 100% food motivated, so we use treats for teaching her new tasks. She's also toy motivated, and I can slip obedience in when she's playing fetch- things like long downs while I toss her ball away as a distraction, and then release her to go get it, stuff like that.

I think everyone's ultimate goal is to phase out whatever motivators you need. I also think that doing certain tasks, like running the agility course or things like that, I will always give a toy reward for.

Granted, there are other positive motovators. I just think treats are the like most common one. Toys are useless with Sarama . . . she doesn't feel rewarded unless I give it to her, and that really breaks our momentum . . . Just showing it to her or letting her sniff it just breaks her concentration . . . and getting it back after 10 seconds makes her dejected. She'll give it to me, but its nto the desired effect.

elegy
10-30-2007, 07:35 PM
yup, luce works very well without treats. i find treats better for some things (like when i want her to be calm for stays) and high energy play/toys work extremely well for other things (stuff in motion- heeling, recalls, fast downs).

treats *are* the most common reward for dogs, and i think that we'd do a lot better in general with training our dogs if we started to think further outside the box. treats are easy, but easy is not always best. it's not always the most effective. and honestly? i think it's easy to get boring and predictable when you're always handing out food rewards.

it's a lot easier to keep a dog engaged when they're interested in the game, and the game is often much more interesting if it's unpredictable. consequently *you* as a trainer are more interesting if you shake things up.

IliamnasQuest
10-31-2007, 05:37 PM
I really think it all boils down to those who try hard to understand their dogs and use the things that bring a high level of motivation to their dogs (based on that particular dog), and those who prefer that a dog do it "just because they're told to" without any concern for the attitude of the dog.

I'm not against a correction, but I'm against basing all of training on the concept of correction with just praise as the motivating factor (which I feel happens when people depend on the use of a corrective collar throughout their training - an occasional use on a really tough dog is not necessarily bad).

It kind of boggles the mind that anyone, in this day and age, would be against positive reinforcement training - something that is so basic and has been proven to work so effectively. I could easily train my dogs with force and no reward except for praise (I did it for years). But the reality is that you get stronger, longer-lasting behaviors when the dogs have been highly reinforced for them. I know - I've seen the difference and will never go back to the neanderthal methods of correction/praise only. Refusal to acknowledge how various rewards work - including treats - is blatant proof of a lack of understanding of dog behavior.

On the "titles mean nothing" comment .. *LOL* .. I hear that from people who haven't managed to earn much in the way of titles. To take a dog out into a strange place, where there are hundreds of other dogs milling about and tons of strange people, expect them to work off-leash, expect them to avoid the temptations around them with people giving treats to their dogs, throwing toys, females in heat, etc., expect them to hold a stay in a line-up of strange dogs with dogs on either side just a few feet away - these are MUCH more demanding requirements than most dogs get at any time during their life with a person. Only someone who has never been there or never managed to earn titles would fail to realize the accomplishment. Making it sound like titles are useless is just a petty attempt to cover your own inadequacies.

And this is where I should mention the old adage of why "little" men get big trucks, hmmm? *LOL*

My bad! :D :D :D

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

CanadianK9
11-01-2007, 02:48 AM
^^^^

Melanie, I love you ROFL

angelzeus
11-01-2007, 02:34 PM
i always used treats it helps alot

MafiaPrincess
11-01-2007, 02:50 PM
Awesome post Melanie.

Cider had to be taught toy drive. It was there, as I'm sure it would have never been rewarding to her if it wasn't.. but we needed to build it. Now, she works harder for a tug toy, or a ball than she does for food. But somedays.. She'd rather have the food if she sees it/smells it. But it's nice to have the versatility of both.

adojrts
11-01-2007, 05:23 PM
I really think it all boils down to those who try hard to understand their dogs and use the things that bring a high level of motivation to their dogs (based on that particular dog), and those who prefer that a dog do it "just because they're told to" without any concern for the attitude of the dog.

I'm not against a correction, but I'm against basing all of training on the concept of correction with just praise as the motivating factor (which I feel happens when people depend on the use of a corrective collar throughout their training - an occasional use on a really tough dog is not necessarily bad).

It kind of boggles the mind that anyone, in this day and age, would be against positive reinforcement training - something that is so basic and has been proven to work so effectively. I could easily train my dogs with force and no reward except for praise (I did it for years). But the reality is that you get stronger, longer-lasting behaviors when the dogs have been highly reinforced for them. I know - I've seen the difference and will never go back to the neanderthal methods of correction/praise only. Refusal to acknowledge how various rewards work - including treats - is blatant proof of a lack of understanding of dog behavior.

On the "titles mean nothing" comment .. *LOL* .. I hear that from people who haven't managed to earn much in the way of titles. To take a dog out into a strange place, where there are hundreds of other dogs milling about and tons of strange people, expect them to work off-leash, expect them to avoid the temptations around them with people giving treats to their dogs, throwing toys, females in heat, etc., expect them to hold a stay in a line-up of strange dogs with dogs on either side just a few feet away - these are MUCH more demanding requirements than most dogs get at any time during their life with a person. Only someone who has never been there or never managed to earn titles would fail to realize the accomplishment. Making it sound like titles are useless is just a petty attempt to cover your own inadequacies.

And this is where I should mention the old adage of why "little" men get big trucks, hmmm? *LOL*

My bad! :D :D :D

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

BRAVO!!!!!!!!! :hail: WELL SAID............obviously I agree, got to run, have to continue tug training with my new pup!! Petie needs a run too........

MelissaCato
11-01-2007, 05:54 PM
Well, I burrowed a video from the library on dog training, and the guy said, all you need is your voice for training. And the dog of course. And three tones of voice also.

Command
Correction
Praise

Thats it. So which do you guys think is better, treats for training, or praise? I'm confused. Because there are soo many different ways. Thank you for reading!

I find you don't need treats to train a dog. I find you don't need treats to motivate a dog. Treats will not stop a high drive dog, period. If you care to know what I think. Once a dog is pumped they have focus on a high... they could care less about treats. IMO.
I can only assume treats are for lower drive dogs, either way I've never used treats for sports or endurance regardless of drive. As high as my current dogs get working/training, treats would harm them. They get milk/water breaks and that's it.

On the flipside, now that I'm trying to stack and make my dogs stand still either for pictures or at a local dog clinic ... I find treats keep them standing still. As long as I don't give them too many :rolleyes: I noticed if I give them to many the more it doesn't work. :cool: So, I try to keep one treat in my hand as long as I can for one dog and everything goes good for the most part.

I use my voice to train. Command, Correction, Praise. My 9 year old son can control all our dogs on high with his voice. That was my goal.

JMO.

Purdue#1
11-01-2007, 07:26 PM
good post melissa. Mickey has very low drive and when we tried treats with her a few days after we got her she could care less, but we don't use treats at all now. its not needed.

your dogs look sooooo awesome! i love the pic of your son holding all 3 together. you have a very handsome son and he is in control of 3 very driven breeds. kudos!

MelissaCato
11-01-2007, 07:52 PM
Thanks Purdue... I like your siggy! :D

Purdue#1
11-01-2007, 08:11 PM
thanks. its sooo beautiful.

Dekka
11-01-2007, 09:35 PM
Hehe I love your siggy, makes me think of people in fetish gear. (whips and chains etc etc) Thanx for the smile :D

No one is saying punishment training doesn't work. Just saying it doesn't work as well. Some people don't wish to suppress. Yes Melissa and Purdue, we know you really enjoy suppression. That is fine. BUT it is not the most effective way to train. Yes it takes the least effort on the owner (or person in black leather fetish gear :D) to train using corrections. But I want snappy behaviours that can happen at a distance in distracting environments (with no correction or rewards in sight)

IliamnasQuest
11-02-2007, 05:22 AM
I find you don't need treats to train a dog. I find you don't need treats to motivate a dog. Treats will not stop a high drive dog, period. If you care to know what I think. Once a dog is pumped they have focus on a high... they could care less about treats. IMO.
I can only assume treats are for lower drive dogs, either way I've never used treats for sports or endurance regardless of drive. As high as my current dogs get working/training, treats would harm them. They get milk/water breaks and that's it.

On the flipside, now that I'm trying to stack and make my dogs stand still either for pictures or at a local dog clinic ... I find treats keep them standing still. As long as I don't give them too many :rolleyes: I noticed if I give them to many the more it doesn't work. :cool: So, I try to keep one treat in my hand as long as I can for one dog and everything goes good for the most part.

I use my voice to train. Command, Correction, Praise. My 9 year old son can control all our dogs on high with his voice. That was my goal.

JMO.

Stepping away from the Purdue/MelissaCato mutual admiration society for a second .. *chuckles*

So what do you do to build drive in your dogs? How do you get them "pumped"? Is it excitement of a chase? Holding them back while someone runs away? A tease with a toy, perhaps? Or has your training ONLY been with your voice, and no other motivational techniques? How does your voice get them pumped? Is it fear-based? How could treats "HARM" your dogs?

The point is (perhaps deliberately) being missed here. All dogs have things that motivate them, and a highly motivated dog is overall a better performer than a non-motivated dog. The use of treats is only ONE means of building enthusiasm. Maybe they're not the best way for your dog. My shepherds have high toy drive and chasing a stick or a ball is a huge reinforcement to them. But that doesn't mean that saying that "you don't need treats to motivate a dog" is valid - that shows a very narrow-minded training philosophy.

I find it very interesting that you, too, seem to fail to differentiate between behaviors. You use a treat to teach a stand-stay (a very basic behavior) because you can't work the dog in drive for that, but don't seem to understand that the premise of reinforcement is the same regardless. A behavior is a behavior - we just have to know how to reward our dogs in a way that they enjoy. If treats work for your dogs in a stand-stay, then that tells me that treats are an effective reward for your dog and it's your inability to be versatile as a trainer that makes you think that treats are not a valid method of reinforcement. In all honesty, you contradict yourself in a huge way in your post. You start off saying you don't need treats, and then later say you use treats to stack your dogs.

It's easy to teach a high-drive dog. They're a piece of cake compared to a dog that is not easily motivated. My working line shepherds are extremely energetic and driven and it's really easy to channel that into the behaviors I want. I can use toys, or playing with them (Trick likes me to pound on her sides), or throwing a twig and they're enthusiastic and happy. My chows, on the other hand, don't respond to that sort of thing. You have to be an extemely versatile trainer to get the best out of dogs like that. You have to think outside of the box and not fool yourself into thinking that they live to please you. If treats are what works, then a savvy trainer uses treats as a reinforcement.

Adaptation to the dog's needs are the signs of a good trainer. When I look at a trainer, especially if I plan to go to a seminar, I want to see that they work with dogs other than working-style dogs. I want to know that they have experience and techniques that will benefit all dogs and not just those that are easy to train. I want them to show that they realize that not all dogs are driven in the same manner. People who primarily train working dogs don't always grasp this concept.

I really suggest that those of you who are so against the use of treats JUST because they're treats should avoid getting dogs that are a challenge to train. It would really show you how little you know about dog behavior. And heaven forbid you be disappointed in your own abilities.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Purdue#1
11-02-2007, 07:49 AM
several weeks ago i had to help with a kids' pedal pull. put sly on a down-stay and went to help my friend move the tractor back to the line. a boy was there with a small pumkin and was waving it around sly's face. he was watching intently. the boy kept acting like he threw it. he was watching and looking, but never broke. that was a good distraction for a few minutes, then i moved him behind a hay bale out of the kids view. i even took off his leash and just had his tab on and worked him with just that on. my friends were amazed and other people were amazed. he even rode shotgun on a wagon with draft horses in front of him. ears perked up. acted like he was on top of the world.

showdawgz
11-02-2007, 09:57 AM
Just give it up already. Everyone says the same things over and over and over again. We all know how our opinions differ, just respect it and move on. Everyone has different methods that WORK, and no one can judge what works better, we dont know how each others dogs "perform".