This is a Forum.

[Renee750il]

There's been a run of controversies over various and sundry issues lately, and terms like "troll" have been used pretty promiscuously. A few of you have wondered why we haven't banned people for touting methods and philosophies that a great many of us have great distaste for, that, don't agree with the "philosophy" here.

This is a forum.

A forum, ideally, is a place for free exchange of ideas - not for a handful of people to eschew their own philosophies to an audience of sycophants. That goes for both sides of the hot issues.

As moderators, we aren't here to "steer" things in any particular direction. Moderation is just that - we are here to moderate and keep things from escalating TOO violently.

"Steering" a forum and dictating that it have a particular philosophy is what makes a forum irrelevant and what kills a forum.

It needs to be remembered, also, that good intentions don't negate the ill effects of poor behavior. It's a real shame when the people who we condemn for their treatment of dogs - or any animal - can exhibit more self-discipline in the presentation of their arguments for their methods than those who are on the opposite side of that fence. And what is even more sad, is to observers, it tends to give more credibility to their harsher methods . . . . Damnshame, too.

[Dizzy]

I nearly wrote "good observation".

But reading your post, I agree.

It's a real shame when the people who we condemn for their treatment of dogs - or any animal - can exhibit more self-discipline in the presentation of their arguments for their methods than those who are on the opposite side of that fence.

People may not like the way I put my own ideas across, but I never name call, or resort to kiddie tactics. And sadly, most of the new members to this site have had to witness this.

Some people need to pull their socks up, straighten their shirts and remember, what goes around, comes around.

Either way, well put.

[Charliesmommy]

I personally see nothing wrong with a forum that dictates a particular philosophy, when that philosophy is the humane treatment of animals. I joined this forum because I thought it was for people who love dogs and want what is best for them. Lately I see a lot of people who abuse and neglect their dogs hanging out here and I have no use for reading what they have to say.

[Aussie Red]

Yes I too thought that it was a forum built on the love and betterment of dogs. While I do believe in freedom of speech I also see that as a forum of animal lovers it is out of place here. Kind of similar to allowing Satan worshipers free speech in a house of God if you will. As a person who works so many hours daily to free animals from the pits of abuse and death I can not agree with allowing these to be in a place made solely to bring in animal lovers and let us face it that was the reason Chaz was started. I can agree that one needs to try to help a person who does not know what to do but when given the advice spends deals of time arguing why they can't do it I see them as trolls. When I see them coming in waves and not being stopped I have to wonder if it is where I need to be. I can not or will not be nice and supportive of ones willing to hurt an animal or breed them for profit. It goes against every grain of my being. I think that there are great people here but that being nice to these is something I can not support. I think that if you want to sit on the fence and not take a stand and go with not stepping on toes ok then ,but it is my opinion and always has been that if you stand in favor of one thing then you stand all the way and and go full guns. I stand up against animal abuse and mass breeding and that means I will continue non support of these types of people even if it costs my popularity and friends because I am not sure they ever were if they support this stuff.

[Renee750il]

If you'll notice, there is absolutely nothing there that even implies supporting those methods or the people who espouse them. You can make a more effective stand by being persuasive and rational than you ever will by being hysterical and throwing haymakers.

If you only preach to the choir, you'll never convert anyone.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

People HAVE been supporting them. People have tried talking to some of these people with wrong ideas of how to raise and train dogs and it doesn't work. People like Aus can nicely talk a person's ears off and still it never gets through these peoples thick skulls.

I tried and tried to be nice to a particular member while she was rude as he!! to everyone else. It took her how many weeks to finally be banned?

Being nice doesn't always work.

When I joined this forum, I joined it because people had the same set of guidelines for what is acceptable and what isn't. For some reason it seems that those guidelines have changed and now it is ok for someone to run a puppymill and give advice on how to do it or beat a dog to train it.

It actually makes me sick. If people here are not going to stand up and defend what is right then what is the point. Some of us will try and explain what a person is doing wrong and others will come along and basically say "shut up you don't know what your talking about", "you are being hypocritical", "you don't know this person" etc.

[ACooper]

If you only preach to the choir, you'll never convert anyone.

:hail: :hail: :hail:

BUT, at the same time alot of these "type" of threads are looking for trouble purposely, Trolling if you will, I know it, you all know it, and yet you give them exactly what they want time and again............CRAZY.

How can a troll BE a troll without willing participants?? I know if MY intent were trolling, nothing would tick me off more than to be ignored!

So who is really to blame in these situations? the Troll? Chaz? The mods? or all the people who keep coming back and keep that thread right at the top while the troll laughs their behind off :confused:

[jess2416]

Well, if everyone knows what a trolling thread is, and people know how people are going to react to those types of threads then maybe it should be deleted/closed before trouble even starts, instead of letting it get 15 pages long...

But maybe thats too complicated

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I agree. Why bother letting trolling threads even go on? Oh because we were told to give them a chance.

[ACooper]

But see, no one said NOT to go and give your advice or opinion. Because there very well could be a chance that it is a legitimate question or issue.

ONE post is usually more than enough........unless of course you have something NEW to add that wasn't said in your first post. But there are those that keep coming and coming saying the same thing that THEY themselves have already said, but getting more aggressive and rude EACH time they do so. As if saying it rudely will somehow make the "supposed" troll give up or understand YOUR point of view...........ya, good logic there :rolleyes:

[chazhound]

Chazhound has not changed one bit since it's creation. Just more visitors.

We have always been about dogs and animal well being. We are an open forum that values the different views and discussions on dog issues. We don't censor views or close a thread unless it is just plain exhausted or going abusive. We can be much more restrictive, but then we wouldn't be an open forum and the dogs in the end will lose. Besides, experience has shown the members do a much better job of maintaining the order as a whole. We all here love dogs in the end.

If a member is trolling in your view, then report them to a Moderator or myself and we will handle it, especially if you think a dog is being harmed.

Chazhound

[Doberluv]

A DOG’S PLEA

Treat me kindly, my beloved friend, for no heart in all the world is more grateful for kindness than the loving heart of me.

Do not break my spirit with a stick, for though I should lick your hand between blows, your patience and understanding will more quickly teach me the things you would have me learn.

Speak to me often, for your voice is the world’s sweetest music, as you must know by the fierce wagging of my tail when your footstep falls upon my waiting ears.

Please take me inside when it is cold and wet, for I am a domesticated animal, no longer accustomed to bitter elements. I ask no greater glory than the privilege of sitting at your feet beside the hearth.

Keep my pan filled with fresh water, for I cannot tell you when I suffer thirst. Feed me clean food that I may stay well, to romp and play and do your bidding, to walk by your side and stand ready, willing and able to protect you with my life, should your life be in danger.

And, my friend, when I am old, and I no longer enjoy good health, hearing and sight, do not make heroic efforts to keep me going. I am not having any fun. Please see that my trusting life is taken gently. I shall leave this earth knowing with the last breath I draw that my fate was always safest in your hands.

Graphic:

http://www.shershihtzus.com/about_puppy_mills.htm

Let me put it this way. People who don't abide by the dog's prayer, who hit dogs, choke dogs, half drown dogs....people who mass produce dogs for money like the above link.....people who fight dogs with other dogs, who promote molestation and abuse of any kind.... I wouldn't invite them into my house for tea.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I am sorry to say but this will be my last post at this place.

Chaz HAS changed. I see it along with many other people. I used to like this forum a LOT but it has turned into a gongshow. Long standing members are being warned while newbies run the show and get to call names, talk about running puppy mills and teach people that it is "ok" abuse dogs.

I understand the whole freedom of speech thing but it has to stop somewhere. People that sit here and say it is fine to beat a dog with a stick or shove their head in a hole filled with water. People are defending disgusting breeding operations.

I am sorry but I am sick of being b!tched at for standing up for what I believe in. You all have to remember that this is very well known forum and people come here for advice. When they come here and see posts about Richling training being ok, puppymills being ok, how many people are going to take that information and run with it. How detrimental is people reading that kind of crap and running with it. But then again, I think this forum has become all about how many members it can get. The more the merrier right? Who cares what they stand for.

If this is the way you want it here, you can have it. But I refuse to be a part of it.

[Reggin]

I am sorry but I am sick of being b!tched at for standing up for what I believe in. You all have to remember that this is very well known forum and people come here for advice. When they come here and see posts about Richling training being ok, puppymills being ok, how many people are going to take that information and run with it. How detrimental is people reading that kind of crap and running with it. But then again, I think this forum has become all about how many members it can get. The more the merrier right? Who cares what they stand for.

Not trying to be rude in any way, but from the threads I have read about abusive training techniques I have seen that chaz members do great at explaining why its wrong and the correct way of training, EXCEPT for a few that are immature about it and resort to name calling. I just cant see someone reading one of those threads and decide to be on richlings side when all the members disagree with his methods and explain exactly why its so wrong. Someone would have to be a fool to run with richlings information. I dont see it happening unless they agree with richling type teachings before even reading his threads.

[Dizzy]

I am sorry to say but this will be my last post at this place.

Chaz HAS changed. I see it along with many other people. I used to like this forum a LOT but it has turned into a gongshow.

Someone says this nearly every week.

It's never changed.

And it's a forum. You need to learn to not get emotionally attached.

You can't fight for any cause if you are caught up in a whirlwind of anger, tears or frustration. You have to be cool, calm and logical.

I know someone who "crusades" for disability. He lectured us for a year. But he was SO wrapped up in it, and so emotionally involved.... He didn't change anything.., he came across as desperate, and not very coherent.

A fantastic cause ruined by poor control.

People learn in a number of ways. Unfortunately 90% is how you present your case, not what you say.


If you can't manage that, and you get flummoxed by the internet, I fail to see what impact you can have on a face to face level.

[smkie]

People HAVE been supporting them. People have tried talking to some of these people with wrong ideas of how to raise and train dogs and it doesn't work. People like Aus can nicely talk a person's ears off and still it never gets through these peoples thick skulls.

I tried and tried to be nice to a particular member while she was rude as he!! to everyone else. It took her how many weeks to finally be banned?

Being nice doesn't always work.

When I joined this forum, I joined it because people had the same set of guidelines for what is acceptable and what isn't. For some reason it seems that those guidelines have changed and now it is ok for someone to run a puppymill and give advice on how to do it or beat a dog to train it.

It actually makes me sick. If people here are not going to stand up and defend what is right then what is the point. Some of us will try and explain what a person is doing wrong and others will come along and basically say "shut up you don't know what your talking about", "you are being hypocritical", "you don't know this person" etc.

But what about the many that read what is written, the ones not posting, and can hear both sides of the issue? They are the ones that might make a difference you never know about. I may never convince the poster that prongs, and chokes, and electic shock is not neccessary to train an animal. They have already made up their mind before they started. But if i can reach one person that is debating, and frustrated with the training they have been trying, and show them a different way, then that is enough for me.
or not docking,,,or not breeding...or kenneling, you name it.

[Gempress]

I am sorry to say but this will be my last post at this place.

Chaz HAS changed. I see it along with many other people. I used to like this forum a LOT but it has turned into a gongshow. Long standing members are being warned while newbies run the show and get to call names, talk about running puppy mills and teach people that it is "ok" abuse dogs.

Are you suggesting that mods should overlook transgressions by long-term members? I don't believe in that at all. It's just a form a favoritism. EVERYONE on Chaz is held to the same standard of behavior.

I understand the whole freedom of speech thing but it has to stop somewhere. People that sit here and say it is fine to beat a dog with a stick or shove their head in a hole filled with water. People are defending disgusting breeding operations.

Freedom of speech shouldn't end because somebody says something you don't agree with. That's why it's called "freedom of speech" and not "freedom to speak until you say something I don't like."

And yes, people are posting things about dogs that other members don't agree with. But you have to consider this: These posts also give an opportunity for people to speak against them.

You all have to remember that this is very well known forum and people come here for advice. When they come here and see posts about Richling training being ok, puppymills being ok, how many people are going to take that information and run with it.

Do you think people will read one post out of the thread and simply go with it? Or will they read the ENTIRE thread, including the tons of posts arguing against it? It's exactly like smkie said. Perhaps your reasoning won't convince the original poster. But you *could* convince any of the thousands of lurkers who happen to read it.

[mjb]

Like someone said earlier in this thread, you can't argue if there's no one to argue with.

So once everyone who wants to posts their reasons why a certain training method is inhumane, for example, they probably don't need to continue restating what they've already said if they want the thread to die. It only continues the person arguing in favor of that method and keeps the thread alive.

[smkie]

Its my opinion that some people just like to argue, get off on stirring the pot. Others want 100 percent agreement. THat is what gets weary. THe unpleasant drama gets a thousand fold more attention then anything that is postive. Gee i wonder why, since our media is the same way. Maybe "we" are "trained" to get off on adreniline. (sp?) and need that surge to get through another day. Sad to say. As for me, i give you my opinion based on my experience. THen that's it. You can take it, drop it, laff at it, or toss it in the river i really don't care. I spend my effort in the hopes that maybe a person will try it, and it will work for them. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, and frankly i don't care if they do or not. I care about their dog, and that is why i try. I also know that you can find unexpected answers to problems in places just like this. WHen i first got VIc, even after years and years of puppies, i never had one like this. You could not get him to have 4 on the floor for love nor money. Creature Teacher told me to teach him up to teach him down. GUess what worked like a charm. I love CHazhound, i will always love Chazhound. Some people here are closer to me then my own siblings. I love their dogs and enjoy in their successes, and share in their losses. I want to learn different approaches to new problems and better answers to old ones. THat is why i am here.

[Laurelin]

Just my 2 cents...

I've been here about a year, and I think Chaz is relatively the same. Things change on any forum you're on. They go through phases, then most the time they correct themselves. Memers that were here when I firstg ot here have left or don't post as much, new people come... it's just the way it works.

Chaz is the best dog forum I've been on because people are allowed to say more than what people are allowed to sayon other forums. The amount of censorship on other forums is astonishing. I like the freedom.

I wish other people would step back and try not to be so rude as I think that undermines their arguments. A topic that you disagree with is a great chance to logically explain your point of view. It's foolish to think you'll 100% change the OP but at least your side is out there.

There are plenty of posters both long time members or newbies that I disagree with on key topics, but I just don't take it too personally. A forum is a place to discuss and debate and if everyone thought the same way, then none of us would be learning anything. I'm not saying you should condone what you feel to be abusive training methods, but instead reply with logic and reason and argue against it!

I'd hate to see a lot of favoritism towards the 'senior members'. To me a newbie and a long time poster are equally as valuable as contributing members. Of the many newbies we've gotten recently, I can only think of a couple that really rub me the wrong way. One of those was taken care of by the mods, and rightfully so. They are doing their jobs, but they shouldn't be the 'newbie police'. The rules should apply to all of us.

Also, I think people need to remember that not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.

[malmo]

I agree. I'm mostly here to talk about dogs and to learn more about training and behavior from people who have more experience than I. I don't mind when someone comes in touting a training method that I disagree with, because it reiterates why I choose positive methods. I also learn from forum members' responses to those threads. It does get a bit tiring when someone asks question after question and doesn't really seem to want the help. But, we can do self-monitoring by not responding to those threads and they will die a natural death.

I appreciate mods regulating spammers and sometimes wonder if more judicious use of "Thread Closed" commands would be helpful, but overall I don't mind the healthy debate.

I'd rather see threads get closed when they have played out rather than people banned. That's just me.

[IliamnasQuest]

Personally I think that the more controversial topics are the better threads on the Chazhound forum.

I often don't agree with what's being said, but that's when I dig my heels in and try to make a logical and clear-minded response so as to put MY point across. The exchange of one opinion against another is exactly what creates learning. Yes, there's tons of information online about puppy mills, but a fresh thread about how terrible they are is likely going to reach some new eyes. A thread about why you shouldn't breed your dog, even though we've talked that to death at other times, is going to reach some new eyes. A thread about why a certain positive training method is better than a harsh corrective method is valuable because that, too, will reach new eyes. These are important posts, much more important than the "how cute is my dog?" and "my dog earned a new title" posts.

The controversial threads are generally the most popular threads, too - look at the number of hits they get! People are coming back here just to click on that topic again to see what's been said. No one is forcing them to do that, nor are they forcing them to respond. That's a personal choice and it's up to each of us to exercise control if we don't want to be part of a particular thread.

It's sad when people say "I"m never coming back" because they can't control the forum the way they want to, or they can't control themselves on the forum. That's what it all comes down to - personal control. Yes, it's easy to get emotional about a topic. Yes, it's easy to post from emotion instead of from logic and reason. Yes, there are times when it's good to step back and say "whew, I need a break .. I'm getting too caught up in this". We don't look our best when we lose control. And it's hard sometimes not to just plain get mad or upset. But we teach others better when we think, and compose ourselves BEFORE we post.

I don't think trolling has much to do with many of the heated posts on this forum. It's an easy thing for people to fall back on - they don't like the topic? Well, the OP must be a TROLL. Sometimes they may be, but there's no way we can truly know. And saying someone is a troll doesn't help those who may be contemplating using the same techniques as the original poster. There will always be people who want trouble, but logical replies are not what they want - they want emotional responses. If you post calmly and logically it works against them .. you're educating instead of reacting.

Personally I hate to see threads closed. If people could control their responses then no thread would need to be closed.

And, of course, this is all just my opinion and you're all welcome to disagree .. *G*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[MoonStr80]

I so much agree with this person! Also I will add when the person doesn't want to learn & rave on and on. Theirs no doubt in my mind that anybody is gonna want to listen to it

Yes ... I'm tired of seeing & witness abuse, neglect and when we try to help, they just deny it all! I'm running out of patients

I will only stick with people who wants to LEARN!

I personally see nothing wrong with a forum that dictates a particular philosophy, when that philosophy is the humane treatment of animals. I joined this forum because I thought it was for people who love dogs and want what is best for them. Lately I see a lot of people who abuse and neglect their dogs hanging out here and I have no use for reading what they have to say.

[jess2416]

and yet people are still missing the point...

but anyhoo..

Carry on..

[CanadianK9]

Ive worked with ALOT of people, and if you want my opinion theres 6 types of people



- People who strive to understand/learn things and educate, truly the ones interested in the betterment of something

- People who are set in their ways and refuse to understand/learn things

- People who are never happy no matter what happens

- People that never speak up at all, what ever the reason may be, and then wonder why everyone just passes em by

- People that like to be the victim, outcast, drama machine

- And last but not least people that voice, but dont get taken seriously at all, cause people think they are crazy for getting SO caught up with something that its taking up their life




Choose what one you are, go with it, the path you take is your own choice, dont expect others to pick up your slack, hike your pants and live with what you chose. Took the wrong path? guess thatll learn ya for next time.

K9 out >_>

[goldiefur]

I LOVE Chazhound! To me this place is a Godsend I really feel like my dogs lives have been saved if not greatly extended from all the GREAT advice I have received here. I did not have my dogs on heart worm preventative and they were eating crap food.

There are a few things I have disagreed with but I just go on my merry way or debate but I'm not going to lose my mind over it. The majority of the posts I have read stay on topic and do not get out of hand. I do not believe in closing threads unless they become very abusive or go way off subject with personal attacks. All I can say is just keep up the GREAT work!:) To much moderation will kill this site.

[malmo]

I meant judicious use of closing threads. After each side has been presented sanely, and then people are getting out of hand. Just to clarify.

[Renee750il]

Ive worked with ALOT of people, and if you want my opinion theres 6 types of people



- People who strive to understand/learn things and educate, truly the ones interested in the betterment of something

- People who are set in their ways and refuse to understand/learn things

- People who are never happy no matter what happens

- People that never speak up at all, what ever the reason may be, and then wonder why everyone just passes em by

- People that like to be the victim, outcast, drama machine

- And last but not least people that voice, but dont get taken seriously at all, cause people think they are crazy for getting SO caught up with something that its taking up their life




Choose what one you are, go with it, the path you take is your own choice, dont expect others to pick up your slack, hike your pants and live with what you chose. Took the wrong path? guess thatll learn ya for next time.

K9 out >_>

Whoa, Alf . . . . . whodathunkyahaditinya? ;) Astute assessment.

[jess2416]

.....

[Doberluv]

I'm all for controversial topics and differences of opinion. I like a hearty debate as much as the next guy, even if does get heated and tempers spike a bit. It can stretch the mind and be exhilarating. Differences in opinion is what generates discussion, the opportunity to see different view points and to learn. There is NO argument from me on that score. NONE. We've had many such debates and that is the very nature and essence of a forum. So, please stop insinuating that people who are leaving this forum or spending less time here are against that. They're against people who abuse and mistreat animals.

What I am staunchly against, is supporting people who molest, abuse and exploit animals to the animals' ruination. Cruelty to animals is not a mistake or a mere difference of opinion. If anyone has the ability to half drown a dog, make a dog "think" he is drowning or can helicopter a dog until it passes out from lack of blood and oxygen to its brain, who strikes dogs with sticks or mass produces puppies and houses them in little tiny cages, one on top of another, where puppies are lying and dying in their own feces, NO AMOUNT OF EDUCATION or discussion is going to make a hill of beans of a difference. If it doesn't occur to someone that these things are cruel, they do not possess empathy. Without empathy, they can not put themselves in anyone else's shoes and therefore are unable to process information the way normal people do. There is something so very wrong with people with no empathy, that (you can ask any psychologist) there is an extreme inability or impossibility to modify that.

To allow people like Martin Richling, for example....(probably a narcissist) to linger on a forum is to give him "air time." It is to support him. The point isn't whether people will follow him or not. Only a real monster would do those things to animals. The point is that it is a reinforcer for him to be allowed to spew his abuse all over a dog forum, to upset people and very importantly to draw everyone into his outlandish, attention seeking, trolling behavior. (Behavior reinforced is behavior which is perpetuated.) It draws people AWAY from regular members who are perhaps seeking help with a serious behavior problem, health problem, who want to share a success story and more. So, other members do not get the attention they would otherwise likely get.

There is no controversy with someone like that. His treatment of animals is flat out nothing any half-witted, half humane person would engage in. There is no good reason to have someone like that linger on the forum. NONE. The only reason he was banned when he was because he used multiple user names. And not because he is an animal molester. (moderators usually come to a consensus to ban someone and like everywhere, there are different opinions there as well)

Of course, no one has to read that crap. No one is holding the proverbial gun to anyone's head. But it is human nature to get caught up in the drama. Most people will begin to read something like that (because they don't what its about yet) to check it out and will have definitely have something to say. It is very difficult to get everyone together to stop responding, at least for some time until they finally give up the arduous fight.

Now, it has been said that the regular members are more rude, more hysterical than someone like Richling or some other troll or person who abuses or mistreats animals. How dare we? Is this to say that all should respect and be nice to someone who is a criminal and molester of animals? How is that possible that anyone could expect any normal, humane person to speak nicely to the worst scum of the earth? Isn't that being a little unreasonable? And to say that "you'll draw more bees with honey" is a non-issue with people with no conscience. You won't teach anyone anything by having these types of people on a forum or by being tolerant of them. All you do is support animal abuse by supporting THEM. You do support them when you allow them in your house, you in proximity to them, converse with them, pay attention to them, reinforce their agenda by attending to them.

Of course, there are milder situations where it is not known at first what the person's intentions are or what they're about. And of course, you don't rush to make conclusions or take definitive action against them. So don't bring that up again to imply that I don't recognize that fact. But there has been a rash of people coming here lately, (we have a little reprieve right now, it seems) who, it became apparent in varying amounts of time were here for one reason: to stir up, upset and disrupt the forum and for no other reason. These come in waves, I'm sure and it is not a thing of continuity or regularity. But when it comes, it ought to be dismissed as expediently as possible. Yes, it happens on most all forums. The point isn't that it doesn't. The point is that they should be eliminated in a timely fashion. These kinds of people are like a disease and will run members off who are here FOR animals, who STAND for animals and who do not want to read all about abuse. We already know it exists, don't we. We see it in all kinds of places and venues, in the media. Why do you want it shoved in your face in your own home? What good does it do? What right should they have? Personally, I take a stand against abuse. I am FOR animals. I will gladly discuss and argue any subject relevant to dogs, even if it gets heated. Controversy is fine and often interesting. But mistreatment isn't controversy.

There are many ways to perhaps, unknowingly support abuse. To allow blatant animal molesters or abusers "air time," is to support animal abuse just as it would be to allow a child molester on this board to gush forth his "opinion." Would you expect people to speak respectfully and calmly to such as that? Is animal molestation less a crime than human molestation or abuse?

Is mass producing and raising puppies in such a way as was pictured in the link I posted on my last post merely just a different opinion that we should respect and talk about with a member who is a puppy miller? Did any of you even look at it? Or are you afraid to face it, to face what you are perhaps unknowingly, even subconsciously condoning by co-habitation with people like that on this forum? If a puppy miller is allowed to brag about this practice, whatever the degree of it is, shall we remain calm, respectful and "educate" them and others who might be just "reading?" Are you really that gullible to think that education has anything to do with it?

How about someone whose dog is having seizures, bleeding from his nose and mouth, losing control of his bowel and bladder: Should we remain civil and calm, respectful as they post away on the forum, page after page of why they can not go to a vet? 10-15 pages later, a day later, they're still posting about why none of our advice will work and then jumping on us for being so "mean." And then we see them posting the same, identical post on several other forums. Shall we still trust that anything they say is even true? Oh yes, remain civil and polite, respectful of a different opinion. Lets have a healthy debate, shall we. We just need to "educate." "You draw more bees with honey."

If you think you are doing good or being moral by being respectful and polite, tolerant and welcoming of all opinions, regardless of what is being done to animals by those people with those opinions, think again. You are doing just the opposite. You are not doing good or right by animals. By allowing these things to continue, to get a foot hold here and to let that foot hold grow, is to reward abusers....inadvertently, I'm sure, but nevertheless, your are reinforcing behavior and talk of behavior which promotes and exercises abuse of animals.

What will you do if a few child molesters join and post on Fire hydrant and start spewing their opinion and discussing their details? Will you be as tolerant and allow the right to "voice" their opinion? From their point of view, they're not doing wrong. Shall we "educate" them and remain calm and not lose control and show respect for another person's opinion or a "controversial" subject?

Stop arguing that there is nothing wrong with a debate on differing opinions about various subjects. Stop using that as an argument here. Can you really not get the concept that controversy about different opinions on training methods, health care, responsible breeding isn't the issue? Trolling, animal abusers, exploitation of animals to the point of causing their demise is the issue. And yes, there most certainly have been several of those types here and some are still here, perhaps not as severe, but nonetheless, people who mistreat animals in a substantial way. Do you think it takes an architectural engineer to draw a line between what is just a different training method and mistreatment or abuse of a dog?

If you want that kind of low-life hanging out with you, you go ahead. You can either turn a blind eye, hide your head in the sand and don't look at those threads.... or you can engage in a "healthy" debate... and don't let those low lifes out-do you in polite, respectful, calm and rational discussion.

[Doberluv]

A-h-h....it's only 13 or 14 paragraphs. Come on...you can do it. I dare ya.;)

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Ok, one last post.

THANK YOU CARRIE, for saying what the rest of us have been trying to say. Maybe they will understand you!

[Fruit bat]

Excellent post Carrie....:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

[jess2416]

Excellent post Carrie....:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

Agreed... ^^

[smkie]

I have always been pretty darn persistant in the things i believe here. Gentle training, no cropping,no docking, no breeding (not until 50 million animals are not dying daily from lack of homes, not spending money on dna testing when that money could spay two dogs at the shelter so more puppies don't end up dying the hard way sighs..and i will bet dimes to doughnuts that 5 people already are disagreeing with me.I don't believe in dogs kept outside at all times, or having one dog untrained and getting another. I don't believe in having more dogs then you can give SOME training to every day. I don't believe in crates or having puppies when someone is not home during the day, i believe you could find a sitter before you stick a dog in a box for 8 hours if you tried hard enough. So now i have disagreed with the croppers and dockers, some of the craters, breeders, and some of the trainers. DOesn't make me popular by any means but those are things i believe in strongly and will post my opinion where ever i think it would have some purpose, maybe not to the person that has begun the thread, but to anyone else that is reading what i write as well.

DOes it mean i get mad when someone disagrees with me? OR i leave if they tell me i am wrong, or call me out, please call me out. I will debate these issues with anyone willing to take the time. I believe this forum is important because i CAN stand for what i believe in. As long as i do so with some tact. If i did get mad i would lose the chance that maybe one person might not do any of those things i believe in so passionatly. I love dogs more then just about anything else on the planet. I have had a lot of experience, more then your average bear so i can back up what i have learned, and maybe pass on some information to someone that could use it. THat is why i am here and i put in a good amount of time just as i do in my efforts for the humane society. FOr me it is all for the puppies.:)


I only wish one thing of the members here that they would speak respectfully about what they believe in and respect others their right to disagree. Why is that so hard to do?

[Renee750il]

Except, Carrie, that you're so intent on one trail that you've missed the entire point.

But - as this is Chazhound and we have always and will continue to have a policy of openness, the really swooft thing is you get to follow your own trail and are free to ignore - or disagree with, or argue about - whatever disagrees with your view of how things should be done.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

And again, the point is missed!

[jess2416]

I think Carrie has explained the point quite well, too bad its being missed....

[smkie]

IT isn't that is missed, it is that there isn't necessarily agreement. THe idea that CHazhound has changed is not agreed with by my point of view. THe idea that there are certain people causing waves, nothing different there. THat some people want other people to agree when they don't, is that your point? IF that is the case, then maybe a blog would be a better way for those that feel so to communicate.

The "point" as i understand it is that this is a forum to exchange ideas about training breeding health and so on. And when you have that there will always be at least two conflicting opinions on any topic. TO me that is what a forum is. SO what is your "point"? Exactly?

[Renee750il]

No, it isn't. Carrie's made that same point over and over again, at length, both on the open forum and in the moderator's forum. Just because we aren't in agreement to close ranks doesn't mean the point isn't understood.

Carrie's ethics and principles have always been held in high esteem and it's a shame all trainers don't have those kinds of values. And no, people like Richling are unlikely to ever be swayed, but maybe one or two people reading might take heed and look to find better trainers by being exposed to the debate - or they might be completely turned off by a clicquish group who summarily silences and bans anyone who dares to disagree with them.

But, regardless, this IS a forum - and an open one. And that IS the point.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Yet again....

This is the very reason I am leaving this forum.

This is a forum this, this is a forum that. We get it already! It's a **** forum!!!

What people are trying to tell you is that letting people stay here that believe in drowning dogs and beating them and breeding a thousand puppies and then go ahead and boast about how they do it is ridiculous!!!

Get it now???

Like I said, this place has turned into a numbers thing. It is all of a sudden about quantity NOT quality, like it used to be.

I don't give a crap about discussions or arguements. What I do care about is when a, what used to be quality forum, all of a sudden has no problems having the scum of the earth here and lets them spew their crap about.

[Renee750il]

Actually, we've allowed the members to - by and large - deal with those sorts of training and ethical issues, and, in large part, most have been extremely effective and used good arguments and rational thoughts and have avoided the pitfalls of personal terms like "scum" and sensational, National Enquirer-esque (or Rovian, or Goebbel-esque) tactics such as comparing them to child molesters, as if beating and holding a dog under water isn't heinous enough to be condemned for its own sake. That sort of manipulative, hysterical rhetoric doesn't achieve anything other than to make the user of lose credibility.

[Debi]

sometimes people have to be made aware of the evil in the world to obtain the good. and I think people understand the good in your posts against that very evil. dog lovers in general do want to do what is best for their pet. they'll see that when you post against what you hate most.

[shadowfacedanes]

as if beating and holding a dog under water isn't heinous enough to be condemned for its own sake. .

I think that is the whole point....they are NOT condemned. They are welcomed to continue posting their slop, while they summon other folks from other forums to come over and support them and then they carry on find and dandy. Next thing you know, the thread in in shambles and they just go start another one.

Freedom of speech is one thing. Allowing someone to discuss barbaric methods and call the rest of us animal lovers "less" of a pet owner because we don't hit our pets....well, I shouldn't even have to comment on that.

...Que sera...:confused:

[Doberluv]

Lose credibility? Whoever sees a loss of credibility for the upholding of standards of good over evil, of right over wrong, of moral over immoral, of cruelty over kindness, regardless of the adjectives they use, are not people from which credibility is of value. Are there really that many people who can not make a distinction between those things? Is everything just one big gray area? No right or wrong answer. Is everything up to interreptation? That is what is wrong with this world, why criminals get more rights than the victims often times. No standards to live by. Why would someone who is able to see a distinction between good and evil need to see crediblity thereof anyway? And for those who can't, as I mentioned before....empathy will not be replentished by credibility for those who never had it.

[Purdue#1]

know your words please:


empathy

1.Direct identification with, understanding of, and vicarious experience of another person's situation, feelings, and motives.

2.The projection of one's own feelings or emotional state onto an object or animal.

[Renee750il]

Being allowed to speak their piece is NOT the same as being welcomed.

And, I remember that some of you were every bit as vehemently dead set against some of our good APBT friends when they first joined us.

Do I like the practices some of these people preach? Hardly, and I have stated such, as have numerous others here. As unwelcome as that contingent is, they will likely get bored with pissing up a rope here and go find someplace else to try to find converts. Or, they'll enjoy all their ability to lead some of you around by the nose and keep you busy lashing out at everything and everyone who doesn't do EVERYTHING your way. And laughing at you.

For a bunch who advocates positive reinforcement training you sure are quick with the harsh words and corrections and clamoring for the forum equivalent of choke chains and staves.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Gee a tad p!ssy are we? We stand for things and refuse to be part of something that is allowing people here that abuse and neglect animals. People that will give other people advice that come here.

Since when did standing up for what is right become such a crime to you people.

Maybe we should all just sit back and let them do and say what they want. Yeah that'll fix things.

IMO if someone comes here that admits to abusing dogs they should be gone. No if's, and's or but's.

Comparing our feelings of this forum to using choke chains and staves is kind of stupid actually.

I am sorry if some of you are mad because certain people left. People that have been here for a very long time. Obviously if those people leave there IS something wrong.

By the way, shouldn't things said in the Mod forum stay between mods and not put out here for everyone to read about?

Carrie, has been a wonderful member here and a great mod. She has helped sooooo many people with training issues etc. For people to sit here and talk bad about her because she has a different mindset on a certain subject just goes to show how some of the people here REALLY are and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

[smkie]

I was thinking that earlier, i wonder if the person that "trolled" this into a froth is sitting back and laughing there heads off.THis is a meal AND dessert. Why can't people disagree about things and stay civil? I disagree with a lot of opinions on here but i don't find it necessary to call out names. Or to keep drama going on forever. I know this thread has become an unpleasant task, to read through. Just more of the same thing that has been ground into dust.ANd that is a shame, i think i would rather read about dogs. Guess i will head to the dog chat and see what is happening around there. THat is what i love about a forum. If you find something you don't like, your perfectly welcome to do something else.

[jess2416]

If people want to be civil to people that beat their dogs and half-drown them, or to people that are puppy-millers then be my guest...

I for one will have no part of being civil to someone like that...

I'm done..

Carry on..

[sparks19]

My opinion.....

State your opinion and move on.....

If you want to leave the forum.... leave. no one is stopping you. If you don't want to see the cr@p posted by people who don't agree with your ways or whom you disagree with.... ignore them or stop reading the threads.

You all seem to be getting pretty "p!ssy" that things aren't going YOUR way. I'm sorry but all I see is a bunch of p!ssing and moaning about how the forum should conform to your beliefs and no one else should be allowed to say otherwise. And PLEASE don't tell me I am missing the point.... I am not missing the point.... I am just not telling you what you want to hear. I am with Renee on this one. there is no need to censor the forum. If you can't deal with that then perhaps you would be better off not participating in open discussion.

But IMO Chaz has NOT changed since the day I joined it. There will ALWAYS be people who make you angry.... there will ALWAYS be people who preach methods you strongly disagree with..... There will ALWAYS be people saying "I am leaving this forum and never coming back".... and there will ALWAYS be those same people returning to the forum after taking a break and calming down. the forum has NOT changed.... it's always been the same. Times sometimes get tough around here whether it's the newbies or long standing members that are the cause.

But in the end YOU are in charge of what you see, believe, and feel.... YOU are in charge of what threads you read and how you respond to them.... YOU are in charge of reporting posts or ignoring members you disagree with.... YOU are in charge of making the forum a pleasant place for YOU. Don't expect the mods to police every little thing just because it puts a knot in your panties. YOU handle your own grievances with the ignore feature or by simply NOT opening a thread.

But I know I know.... I'm missing the point right?

[HoundedByHounds]

savethe...if I may be so bold...you made similar statements at other forums...for different reasons...

Maybe forums in general, at least public ones...just aren't your thing? Have you considered that aspect? Not everyone is a "forum" person...and if you find yourself leaving forum after forum in this huff or that...slinging profanity or insults as you have here...maybe it's not the forums? Maybe it's just not for you?

[blue]

Im still suprised I wasnt banned for one of the first threads I started, as I would have been on other forums.

And somehow a short while later I was asked to be a mod.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

savethe...if I may be so bold...you made similar statements at other forums...for different reasons...

Maybe forums in general, at least public ones...just aren't your thing? Have you considered that aspect? Not everyone is a "forum" person...and if you find yourself leaving forum after forum in this huff or that...slinging profanity or insults as you have here...maybe it's not the forums? Maybe it's just not for you?

Ummmm funny!!! Especially considering I don't go to any other forums! I don't know where or how you are getting your info but you are WAY WRONG! I have been to dog.com a couple times and that is about it.

Me slinging profanity and insults? What about all the backstabbing and b!tching people have done to and about Carrie??

It's fine, you can think I am a whackjob for not wanting to be part of a forum where animal abusers and puppymillers are allowed to come and discuss their horrible (as someone here called it) "beliefs".

It is also funny that someone brought up mods policing everything that goes on. I got a warning for telling FK that is was unethical to sell dogs on NextDayPets! To me it seems they are policing every little thing. I get a warning for that yet idiots can come here and say "I half drown my dog to teach it to not dig holes in my yard and you should too!" and get away with it.

Yeah that makes a TON of sense to me.:rolleyes:

[blue]

Basicly this is an open forum, not a closed forum where you are going to be tased for harassing John Kerry.

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a992/a992_bm.gif

[chazhound]

Jaclyn,
You have seemed to make this thread all about you and Carrie.
I will tolerate a bit but not when you speak of what Chazhound represents. You don't know me or what I stand for and don't speak for Chazhound.

To suggest that Chazhound would condone puppymills or dog abusers is plain not true. I take that as a personal insult for the ones who has built Chazhound. Especially when you didn't report any abusive members or actions. Why didn't you report right off if it was bad.

Your idea of an dog abuser may be very different from what we find. I can find no evidence of dog abuse that has been reported to me. If you have some prove of dog abusers on Chazhound I would love to have it.

Chazhound

[jess2416]

Jaclyn,
You have seemed to make this thread all about you and Carrie.
I will tolerate a bit but not when you speak of what Chazhound represents. You don't know me or what I stand for and don't speak for Chazhound.

To suggest that Chazhound would condone puppymills or dog abusers is plain not true. I take that as a personal insult for the ones who has built Chazhound. Especially when you didn't report any abusive members or actions. Why didn't you report right off if it was bad.

Your idea of an dog abuser may be very different from what we find. I can find no evidence of dog abuse that has been reported to me. If you have some prove of dog abusers on Chazhound I would love to have it.

Chazhound

Whats the point of reporting anything, when people get told over and over again that everyone is entitled to their opinion (even if their opinion is ok that people half-drown dogs and hit them with sticks while training, and dont see a problems with dogs living in cages and breeding them every chance they get)

But I guess thats ok, cause they get to have an opinion cause this is an Open forum right... Guess it doesnt matter that some people actually care right ??





and Sparks Im not even going to go there with you, but your one to be talking...

[Reggin]

My opinion.....

State your opinion and move on.....

If you want to leave the forum.... leave. no one is stopping you. If you don't want to see the cr@p posted by people who don't agree with your ways or whom you disagree with.... ignore them or stop reading the threads.

You all seem to be getting pretty "p!ssy" that things aren't going YOUR way. I'm sorry but all I see is a bunch of p!ssing and moaning about how the forum should conform to your beliefs and no one else should be allowed to say otherwise. And PLEASE don't tell me I am missing the point.... I am not missing the point.... I am just not telling you what you want to hear. I am with Renee on this one. there is no need to censor the forum. If you can't deal with that then perhaps you would be better off not participating in open discussion.

But IMO Chaz has NOT changed since the day I joined it. There will ALWAYS be people who make you angry.... there will ALWAYS be people who preach methods you strongly disagree with..... There will ALWAYS be people saying "I am leaving this forum and never coming back".... and there will ALWAYS be those same people returning to the forum after taking a break and calming down. the forum has NOT changed.... it's always been the same. Times sometimes get tough around here whether it's the newbies or long standing members that are the cause.

But in the end YOU are in charge of what you see, believe, and feel.... YOU are in charge of what threads you read and how you respond to them.... YOU are in charge of reporting posts or ignoring members you disagree with.... YOU are in charge of making the forum a pleasant place for YOU. Don't expect the mods to police every little thing just because it puts a knot in your panties. YOU handle your own grievances with the ignore feature or by simply NOT opening a thread.

But I know I know.... I'm missing the point right?

:hail: :hail:

I have to say that I agree with renee, sparks, and chazhound on this one.

If some people don't want to be apart of an open forum such as chaz, then why did they become members in the first place?

Like renee said... letting a person speak their piece is NOT the same thing as welcoming them. In fact, I am sure any animal abuser who does happen to come here feels very unwelcomed.

I am sure I will be hated by some members for what I just said, but hey, its my own opinion.

Thats all.

[CanadianK9]

I think your ALL missing the point, your all argueing over what we should all think and what we should not, when truly it should be about dogs, wellness, betterment, and happiness.

Argueing over it all is taking away from what we should be focussing on, its sad really, I will take no part in this discussion anymore as I see it as silly now

K9 out

[HoundedByHounds]

Ummmm funny!!! Especially considering I don't go to any other forums! I don't know where or how you are getting your info but you are WAY WRONG! I have been to dog.com a couple times and that is about it.

Me slinging profanity and insults? What about all the backstabbing and b!tching people have done to and about Carrie??


Rrrright...lol, as more profanity slings forth. One of the first things people on the defensive do is deflect blame and use misdirection. My kiddos, 6 and 4 y/o BTW, do that a lot...mostly when they know they've done something worth being defensive about.

"Yeah...but she did this that or the other!", "Why doesn't xxx ever get in trouble...it's not fair!" etc

I ask again...have you considered that perhaps public forums...in general...are not the best choice for you? Maybe something private and super moderated...maybe you could even start one yourself?

[SharkyX]

Rrrright...lol, as more profanity slings forth. One of the first things people on the defensive do is deflect blame and use misdirection. My kiddos, 6 and 4 y/o BTW, do that a lot...mostly when they know they've done something worth being defensive about.



You just used the same tactic your condeming Save for using. You didn't answer which other forums you've seen her say "this is my last post because etc."

Couple of observations from reading here:

1. The forum has changed. To say other wise is a tad bit nieve. Forums always change, new members join and old members leave, thus the tone and discussion topics of a forum change and evolve over time. A forum might still hold it's original intent but the way it's conveyed is different now then it was last month which is different from last year and it will be different a year from now also. In order to stay afloat it has to change. Whether you notice the change or not as it goes with what you want the forum to be or do or do not have any problem with the changes that take place.
If you still want to believe the forum has never changed, I have a Hendrix air guitar for sale that you might be interested in.

2. When old members, core members and some of the mod staff start bickering in open public like is happening right now generally there is something pretty darn wrong. In this case it seems to be about the types of members and freedom of speach afforded to them that have joined of late. I've seen more then a few topics and wondered "how the hell isn't this locked yet". Of course I don't always report it so I suppose that makes me just as guilty as the moron posting blatantly stupid comments... however I've noticed that on the occassions I have hit the report post button it still takes a while for anything to get done... and what thats complained about we get told that people here have the right to free speach and that moderators don't exist to do members bidding.
So then what becomes the value behind hitting that button to report trolls and other unpleasantries... look at how many people a certain member who was recently banned offended and that was pretty well agreed on that they weren't a beneficial member to the community, before corrective action was taken?

3. Lastly I'm probably going to step out of line here... but Chazhound I find it pretty interesting your criticising somebody else for speaking about what Chazhound is all about when, in my time here, this is the most active I've ever seen you in a single topic with all of two posts. You are the least active, yet still present, administrator I've seen on any of them dozen plus forums I've been to over the years. You don't speak about what Chazhound is all about anymore... I'm sure there was a time when you were fairly active but in the basically year that I've been lurking and then joined and began posting you haven't spoken up, you've let your members and moderators do the speaking for you in regards to what this forum is about.
I'm sure you've got a lot of other things to do as we can all agree, web forums don't control any of our lives (unless you create web forums and work for some of the forum companies for a living I guess) but perhaps having a bit more visible presence wouldn't be such a terrible thing for the sake of the community. At least that way we might be able to avoid the part of the arguement where what the community is about comes into play.

Please note, this is not meant as attack or to be offensive so hopefully it will not be taken as such, trying to be helpful in the only way I know how :)

[MelissaCato]

I think this is one of the most active and perceptible forums I've ever been a member.
I like Chazzzzz.

[HoundedByHounds]

You just used the same tactic your condeming Save for using. You didn't answer which other forums you've seen her say "this is my last post because etc."

:)

Actually, you have no idea if I answered her or not..if it was done in PM...which I might or might not have done today...tomorrow...three days from now...or yesterday.

I explained her behavior reminded me of my kids...which it does...and I asked her if she'd considered a possibility...which is a valid thing to ask...I offered her a solution....which is also valid.

No deflection here.

[SharkyX]

Actually, you have no idea if I answered her or not..if it was done in PM...which I might or might not have done today...tomorrow...three days from now...or yesterday.

I explained her behavior reminded me of my kids...which it does...and I asked her if she'd considered a possibility...which is a valid thing to ask...I offered her a solution....which is also valid.

No deflection here.

True I don't know if you privately messaged Save. However you made the accusations in a public setting and then the defense was put to you in a public setting.
To continue on your course of action of pointing out/proving this isn't the first time she's done this you'd have to post at least one other forum where she's taken this route in order to make your statement credible.

[HoundedByHounds]

To agree with you I'd have to agree that an accusation, rather than an observation was made...so we're at a likely permanent...impasse.

[SharkyX]

To agree with you I'd have to agree that an accusation, rather than an observation was made...so we're at a likely permanent...impasse.

That's true, since i'm not about to budge in my belief in was an accusation and I'd highly doubt you're going to yield and say it wasn't an observation :p

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Dekka]

Thoughtful post Sharky.

I have stayed out of this thread for the most part, because I find it silly.

I like trolls, they are fun. If you don't like them no one makes you read the threads. I like a good debate, its stimulating, and hones your arguments. Some people are made uncomfortable by debates-no one is making you read them.

Holding your dogs head under water is wrong. So is child abuse. Linking them isn't a bad thing. Most people know child abuse is wrong. Obviously the people holding their dog's heads underwater, don't know it's wrong. Linking them rhetorically could shock people into seeing the connection of violence done to those with less power, and see that behaviour as dog abuse.

I agree that letting people speak their mind isn't the same as welcoming them. I thought the MR threads were beneficial to the dog world in general. Now when people google his name, these threads come up. They can now read them and decide if he is the sort of trainer they want; training styles, and as a person. MR, and his cronies, joining in harmed them far more than they may realize. If it stops only one person from choosing abusive methods, then that thread was a success.

The more things change, the more things stay the same. This is a public forum, there are always these issues on a public forum. But the tone and feel of a forum will change to match those of the members.

So really what is the this fuss all about?

[chazhound]

Whats the point of reporting anything, when people get told over and over again that everyone is entitled to their opinion (even if their opinion is ok that people half-drown dogs and hit them with sticks while training, and dont see a problems with dogs living in cages and breeding them every chance they get)

But I guess thats ok, cause they get to have an opinion cause this is an Open forum right... Guess it doesnt matter that some people actually care right ??

and Sparks Im not even going to go there with you, but your one to be talking...

Where do you see me OK half-drowned dogs? Where so I say it is OK to hit dogs with sticks? Or living in Cages? Or Breeding abuse? What makes you think you love and care for dogs more than Chazhound or it's mods?

If you see abusive behavior you can report it anytime you want, but you decided not too. We have over 1000 posts a day and we can't read them all. But we investigate every reported post. We have much better tools than you to find out the real stories and associations. We don't guess or run someone off just because a member says they are bad or got rubbed the wrong way.

We have over 800,000 posts on this forum and I only hear of the same example over and over. It is like you don't see any of the vast good Chazhound has to offer.

Chazhound

[smkie]

THat's the kind of private stuff i don't want to read. THe mud slinging, the name calling, the pointing out, the insulting. YOur given two options, the ignore button and the pm. WHy must it be dragged out where someone has to read it? WHen i come to Chazhound, i feel like i am coming to an establishment. A place where we all sit down and discuss what we care about. A place provided by someone willing to make the time and effort to allow us to discuss what we care about. Insulting how that person does this, or how much imput they have to me is beyond rude. Maybe it effects no one else that way, but it does me. If they don't like the way this forum is run, then they should go make one of their own. I once wrote i found a treasure when i was a newbie. Not one bit of that has changed for me. I do find this whole unpleasant business to be stirred by a few that seem to enjoy keeping it going. I hate to think that newbies come in and see this and think wtf. I know it will blow over, and that will be that, but to insult CHazhound, what it stands for, what it is about, is just wrong.

[HoundedByHounds]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Absolutely! :)

Agreeing to disagree is a great tool, that should be used more often, in forum life and "real life", both.

[SharkyX]

If they don't like the way this forum is run, then they should go make one of their own.

The "don't let the door hit your @ss on the way out" mentality isn't always the best approach though.
If people didn't care about the forum they wouldn't have this arguement, they would simply leave and nobody would ever know why or if anything could be done to improve.

Criticism isn't always easy to hear but it's sometimes a very useful tool and great improvements can come from it.

[smkie]

IF they really cared about this forum, the would work together in a postive manner instead of grooving on the bashing.

When i went to art school our director of the dept was a tall, thin, stern man who seldom smiled. He was available for any questions at anytime. He kept the order of our dept which was small but still very complicated. He however didn't lean over our desks and tell us what to do.
I sat at a student meeting where i listened to half a dozen students criticize this man for being unfeeling, stern, fatherlike, and i thought wtf. WHat did they want after all? He had always answered anything i had to ask him, since when does someone have to have a smile pasted on their face. WHat they didnt' know about this "uncaring, unjovial man" that didn't respond the way they wanted him to, was how unbelievably educated he was. WHat i learned from him is a part of who i am today. Not only that he fostered-raised a dozen children and put all through college. Those students got a burr under their saddle because he didnt' lean over and make them do good work. He let them find their own ways. If he had leaned over our desks we would have been doing his work, not our own. Listening to this criticizm of CHazhound by certain members is like listening to those students back then. Your not looking at the whole picture here, only your perspective of it, which IMO is a nearsighted. And because of that everyone is affected, yet you have not been silenced. Sometimes i wish people when they are ranting and raving would look around and see who is being quiet and think why? could it be because they have nothing good to say? ANd are choosing to say nothing at all?

[Melissa_W]

I just hate to see the forum torn apart like this. I hope that everyone can somehow put their differences aside and move forward. I think everyone contributes to the forum in their own way and I would hate to see anyone go.

[malmo]

Your idea of an dog abuser may be very different from what we find. I can find no evidence of dog abuse that has been reported to me. If you have some prove of dog abusers on Chazhound I would love to have it.

To me, this is the big problem with this discussion -- what constitutes "abuse" to one person may not to another. As someone who has to make decisions every day about whether to report child abuse or not, I can say that it is all very subjective. Even when I hear something in a therapy session and think, "That is ABUSE!" it all depends on the person who answers the phone at DCS whether or not there will be a formal report made. The word "abuse" is just too open for interpretation. Subjective.

It's not subjective for me, in my life. I would never hit a child OR an adult OR a dog. I can't say I was ever so surprised on chazhound as I was during the thread in which people who would have jumped ALL OVER someone for hitting a dog then turn around and talk about how they feel fine spanking children. But, that was my own response and not an issue of moderation. No one was condoning "abuse" but in my experience, abusers seldom feel they are abusing.

Unless you want to write a 15-page manifesto on exactly where the fine line is between training, correcting, abusing, and maltreating dogs, I think it's fine to let the forum more or less moderate itself. We should all take responsibility for reporting the things we are uncomfortable with. Then, though, we have to accept that the mods will do what they feel best about. If you continue to disagree with the decisions after that, then that's a personal issue.

[Dekka]

I agree there is a fine line. But the blatant things, like hitting with sticks, hanging, half drowning, seem to me to be far enough over the line, it should be obvious.

[Fruit bat]

If I may, I know people are upset by the subject of Frenchkissed. Her websites have been put up and is a self proclaimed puppy farmer. When other members are working so hard to rescue and face the sad looks of those they can't help, those hundreds that die, it is a slap in the face to have a person who does this for profit get on here and give everyone advice. I just don't really understand why that person or one who admittedly let an animal starve to death were ever allowed to stay. There are more examples here to. I was really not aware of the fact that I should have reported those directly to Chazhound. Live and learn. Since the mods were sometimes involved in those convos. I never thought it needed to go further. That that was it, if you will. These people get everyone upset and are just here to stir sh!t, Chaz would be a better place without them. 3 or 4 months ago I could hardly leave my computer and Chaz. Now it just plain sucks, It is not the same.

I know Chaz has said he doesn't think allowing them to stay is the same as condoning or supporting their actions , but from a members standpoint that IS how it seems.

[chazhound]

I agree there is a fine line. But the blatant things, like hitting with sticks, hanging, half drowning, seem to me to be far enough over the line, it should be obvious.

It should be, but it isn't. You didn't report none of these things. If it is ok with you then don't blame Chazhound. Most everyone who has problems with the mentioned posts, did not report nothing. We deal with every reported post.

Chazhound

[Fruit bat]

It should be, but it isn't. You didn't report none of these things. If it is ok with you then don't blame Chazhound. Most everyone who has problems with the mentioned posts, did not report nothing. We deal with every reported post.

Chazhound

I can't speak for everyone else but when a mod is posting on the threads I assume no more reporting is necessary.

[chazhound]

If I may, I know people are upset by the subject of Frenchkissed. Her websites have been put up and is a self proclaimed puppy farmer. When other members are working so hard to rescue and face the sad looks of those they can't help, those hundreds that die, it is a slap in the face to have a person who does this for profit get on here and give everyone advice. I just don't really understand why that person or one who admittedly let an animal starve to death were ever allowed to stay. There are more examples here to. I was really not aware of the fact that I should have reported those directly to Chazhound. Live and learn. Since the mods were sometimes involved in those convos. I never thought it needed to go further. That that was it, if you will. These people get everyone upset and are just here to stir sh!t, Chaz would be a better place without them. 3 or 4 months ago I could hardly leave my computer and Chaz. Now it just plain sucks, It is not the same.

I know Chaz has said he doesn't think allowing them to stay is the same as condoning or supporting their actions , but from a members standpoint that IS how it seems.

I do understand how you feel and come to that conclusion. We will never be able to root out all the bad apples, some will sneak around and just stay within the guildlines to stay. Remember, you have to have prove before I act. I have seen none. Do you actually know anyone who bought a puppy from her? A puppy farm sells huge amounts of puppies. A site with no traffic or desire will get no business. Anyone going to such a site from Chazhound will already have a negative view before landing on the site. I have to look at the whole picture here.

We allow mods to be members too and voice their own individual opinions and beliefs. If you think a mod is involved in a thread and not addressing abuse, then report it to another mod, me, or Renee. I know all our mods love and care dearly for dogs.

Remember, it is easy for me to just delete this thread. I do want an open forum. The members has always and will always report the bad apples and maintain order. If you don't, then don't blame me. We as dog lovers, will investigate the complaint based on merit, not emotion. On facts, not accusations. Rest assured that has always been the way here.

Chazhound

[Dekka]

It should be, but it isn't. You didn't report none of these things. If it is ok with you then don't blame Chazhound. Most everyone who has problems with the mentioned posts, did not report nothing. We deal with every reported post.

Chazhound
?? I didn't report it cause I wanted to discuss it. If I reported it, the thread could have been locked. I addressed how it wasn't ok with me, from within the thread, so others could come and see the arguments. And as there were a few mods in there too, I too thought all who needed to know, were in the know.

[chazhound]

Now that is truely how to handle most heated post. Debate it. I much rather see it hashed out right there in the thread. :)

Chazhound

[Debi]

see...just like this thread. where else can you have the opportunity to have your say like this?? anywhere else you would be told that 'it's policy as stated'. the end. you know...that's what Chaz could have said from the beginning. his forum..his rules. but he doesn't do that, and that is the nature of his forum. gotta respect it.

[Charliesmommy]

It is all the constant fighting and bitching, just like this entire thread, that makes me want to stay away lately. Every thread I try to read ends up in a bitchfest.

[Debi]

I consider it talking. guess it's all how you look at it. :) :) when you think it's a bitchfest, then it's time to just walk away from the computer. and that happens to all of us from time to time. but...it's just 'talking', hashing things out.......freely, openly, and without the restriction you get everywhere else. and that is the point. not all the bad dog people out there or the people intent on insisting we ban people immediately. the point is Chaz has created the ultimate discussion forum. and I think we really should all just stop...and thank him for that. free discussion.....that is the point. for everyone that keeps insisting on repeating their view on the evil in the world, that isn't and never was the point. nobody agrees with bad, horrible behavior toward dogs. if you step back a moment, I think you'll finally get it. and we all admire you for your kindness and love of dogs......just like the rest of us. ((hugs))

happy weekend!!!!!!!!!

[sparks19]

and Sparks Im not even going to go there with you, but your one to be talking...



I'm not denying that I have been involved in some heated discussions.... nor am I denying that I have gotten emotionally involved in some threads.... however I don't turn around and bash the forum and the people that keep it going for us just because I am p!ssed off. I don't p!ss and moan about how "the forum has changed" "I hate it here" "this forum should be run the way I see fit"

Honestly if you have such rude things to say about a place that has given us such joy and provided so many new friends for so many people then perhaps you ARE in the wrong place. I just can't see why someone would personally attack Chazhound, Renee or any of the mods because they didn't do something that you thought they should have. Be GLAD they don't ban members at the drop of a hat because MANY MANY MANY of us.... including myself.... would no longer be here.... we would all be banned

and like it has been stated MANY times.... we the members are also in charge of policing our own forum. You have options... USE them. if you don't use the options at your disposal then you have no one to blame for the breakdown of this forum but yourself. Don't expect everyone to know what you want or what you think.... MAKE it known.... without the whining... the temper tantrums .... or the hissy fits. Use the tools Chazhound has provided for you to handle such situations and perhaps threads like THIS would not be nessecary.

But like smkie said.... eventually this will all blow over and Chaz will be back to "normal"

ETA: I have been a member of forums that are very strict and I have been a member of forums who have NO moderation what so ever. Chaz is a nice balance. You should see the forums that have strict or NO moderation.... you think things get crazy here?

[Debi]

forgot to say one more thing. lol the most wonderful thing about Chaz??? for all the people that have expressed hurt feelings, bashed, said they were leaving etc...........if you posted tomorrow we'd all welcome you with open arms. cause that's another thing about free discussion...you vent, you rage, you say your piece, you get angry.........and we still just like you. :) so...if you DID say you were leaving and you change your mind........we'd always be so happy you came back. and there would not be any hard feelings. cause it's just a group of friends talking things out. :)

[sparks19]

forgot to say one more thing. lol the most wonderful thing about Chaz??? for all the people that have expressed hurt feelings, bashed, said they were leaving etc...........if you posted tomorrow we'd all welcome you with open arms. cause that's another thing about free discussion...you vent, you rage, you say your piece, you get angry.........and we still just like you. :) so...if you DID say you were leaving and you change your mind........we'd always be so happy you came back. and there would not be any hard feelings. cause it's just a group of friends talking things out.

Unless it was you, Debi. :p ;)

Kidding :D

[Red_ACD_for_me]

I'm not reading through all 9 pages of this thread but I did read and glance through the first 5............Alls I have to add is that I came to Chaz because of its popularity and well educated people. I had been to a couple of other forums that were just dead and would have at most 5 members on at once. I liked how chaz was more busy. I'm a pretty layed back person and stay away from some of these heated threads that tend to get ugly unless a poster really makes my blood boil I may add my two cents but what is the sense when it has already been said and explained 20 times over to the OP. I came to Chaz to make friends and talk about my beloved animals and my strong love for dogs not to fight, argue, and bitch. I can do that in person with many people in real life so what is the use over the internet ;) As far as some of these new members who post BS threads I tend to get a feeling of sincerity from the post before I waist my time, energy, and thoughts on what they post about. You aren't going to get through to everyone who wants to breed (even though they don't have a clue), you can't convince everyone to spay and neuter just because you are a firm believer in it, and you can't change the minds of irresponsibility in general by being rude and nasty to the OP. Remember you get further with sugar than vinegar and if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all :D I remember last year I helped a teenage brother and sister who lived with their mean grandmother down south and had a dog who they had to leave outside. She had posted about her dogs health issues and concerns of symptoms. Alls she got was bashed in her thread about what she wasn't doing for her dog and how she needed to take it to the vet which was said over and over again. Long story short she got very upset with the members on chaz and luckily she kept contact with me through PM and updated me on her dog and the vet care she was getting her. She ended up having heartworm and a urinary tract infection but was treatable. She was very thankful I was here to help her and that I was nice and compassionate to her and not mean (just an example of one of my experiences). Lets not forget that some people really do come to chaz for help and aren't just here to spam and cause trouble. I know that can be tough to figure out through the internet, but more people need to find out all the info before they start being mean and tearing people apart. JMO and quick genralization of things ;)

[IliamnasQuest]

Just because we aren't in agreement to close ranks doesn't mean the point isn't understood.

<snip>And no, people like Richling are unlikely to ever be swayed, but maybe one or two people reading might take heed and look to find better trainers by being exposed to the debate - or they might be completely turned off by a clicquish group who summarily silences and bans anyone who dares to disagree with them.

But, regardless, this IS a forum - and an open one. And that IS the point.

It's interesting reading through this thread. I hadn't been back since I posted originally and I was surprised to see that there was such a debate.

I agree with Renee on the above - just because people don't agree doesn't mean they're missing the point. The concept of what should be allowed and what shouldn't is very subjective. Yes, I think that people who believe in using drowning as a training aid are wrong, and I believe that puppy mill type breeding is wrong, but I also believe that cropping ears and tails primarily for appearance-sake is inhumane and cruel, too. And yet others who loudly proclaim how wrong it is to allow someone to talk about over-breeding or abusive training techniques DO believe in cropping or docking because they want their dog to have a certain "look". So where, exactly, do we draw the line? Do we ban those who crop/dock just because some of us think it's cruel? Or do we just state our opinion and let others reading make their own conclusions? When it comes to threads that we feel strongly about, if we're logical and make a good argument we can possibly change some people's minds who may be on the border between two concepts. That's the value of a forum that allows a high level of freedom.

There just isn't a solid line between the good and bad. Some people really don't see that what they're doing is wrong. Maybe they grew up in a "spare the rod, spoil the child" household and punishment has always been a way of life to them. Maybe they grew up seeing dogs as being nothing more than livestock, to be raised and sold as a business. And in all honesty, when you look at Chazhound, the vast majority of threads are NOT about things that get people all worked up. We keep hearing about the same few "bad" threads over and over and over. Yes, there were things in those threads that I felt were abusive (and obviously others did too). Did it help when people got emotional and ranted or posted incoherently because they were upset? No, not really. Did it make a difference when logical and reasonable arguments were presented? Sometimes. And if someone comes to Chaz and reads those posts, they may learn something that they didn't know - and may make a good decision instead of a bad one.

Education is absolutely the key. If we all think back to what we thought we knew when we first got a dog - some of the things we did back then we wouldn't even DREAM of doing now. I let my dog ride in the back of the pick-up. Everybody did back then. I trained with a choke chain. Everybody did back then. I fed the cheap food. It was what I knew and what those around me knew. And as I grew as a dog owner and learned, I changed my ways. Who are we to say that trying to offer education to others, regardless of where they are in dogs at this point, is ever WRONG?? Maybe we won't change that particular person, but we may change others who read the thread. And that can't be anything but good.

When it comes right down to it, there's no one here who has a right to say what happens to this forum except for the person who pays the bills. We're not forced to stay here, certainly, and if a person is really upset then stepping away is probably the most healthy thing to do. There's no shame in taking a break.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[chazhound]

Excellent post Melanie... Thanks much for sharing.

Chazhound

[Psyfalcon]

I pray (a rare thing!) that this is my only foray into this thread. I've been on enough forums to know not to get attached. I've worked up quite a number of posts, but I do not want to be "a regular here." That is developing a connotation that I don't want to be part of.

There is a very strange social dynamic here, compared to many other forums. People seem to treat the forum as family. Short of illness or death, I do not care if any person comes, goes, or throws a fit about leaving for the 10th time. There is a thread weekly about people not coming back. It gets old, since they almost always come back. It really is a attention ploy when the poster is not getting their way! No single person makes the forum (well, Chaz excepted, I suppose) so I do not care if any person stays or goes.

If it starts getting to be too much, just take a step back, don't visit, or only open picture threads.

The response to Richling is actually still bothering me. A narcissist? Perhaps, but what does calling him in this, or any thread serve? Just because you (in general) do not agree with method "X" does not mean that others don't. Clearly at least 3 incarnations of one person does.

If you want to fight that kind of thinking, you HAVE to understand it. Why does this person think that it is ok to train that way? In some cultures, dogs are just food. In others they are Paris Hilton's dog. Most of us will fall in between these extremes. Most people here have a VERY narrow view on it. In the scheme of things, the difference between a halti harness, a prong collar or a clicker are effectively the same to most dogs, at least compared to a baseball bat or dinner fork, yet we still argue over that for days.

If someone really does have strongly held beliefs contrary to what the "general forum opinion" is, it is going to take more than a couple forum posts to make them change their minds. Find out why they feel that way and address those reasons.

There is no reason to let it get personal. If you attack one of those members unfairly (yes, you can unfairly attack an animal abuser/a puppy miller or negligent owner) they will stop listening, and the battle to change their minds is lost. The first person to loose their cool can do this. This means that those conditions will still prevail.

[Island dog]

Renee:

After reading this entire thread I now have a better understanding of the responses I've received to date. A simple solution would be to specify in your rules the beliefs you expect members to possess. It would prevent the problems which now plague this forum. Had I known at the time of signing up that purchasing a poodle/retriever cross was considered 'wrong', I would simply have not bothered and proceeded to another forum where it was acceptable. The members who have posted in this thread declaring that they can't be civil etc. because it's condoning or supporting abuse clearly want a 'private' forum and expect standards to be strictly enforced. The rules as they exist give no indication differing views will not be tolerated. In order to be fair to everyone, you need to specify only certain beliefs are welcome and that way the forum stays the same.

Rules: 1. Please be respectful to other members and moderators. You don’t have to like or agree with everyone, but please state your thoughts in a respectful manner. Absolutely no name calling. No personal attacks.

2. Do not “bash” new members because they don’t know about puppymills, backyard breeding or any other practice you may not agree with. Don't jump to conclusion about new members. They may not be a "troll" just because they ask a question that seems obvious to others. Education is the best way the change any problem.

[Dizzy]

A fantastic view from a new member.

Every venture benefits from new inputs from new eyes.

People get stale and stuck in their own ways and means. If I've learnt anything recently, it's never to discredit what someone who is new can bring to a project - they have valuable new things to add.

[ACooper]

Island Dog I would just like to say I am sorry for what you and goldendoodler was exposed to right off the bat.

It's true that Chazhound is an open forum and members have LOTS of freedoms here that you won't get at other forums...........which also leaves it wide open for what you have just went through.

All I can say is, you have an option to put some people on "ignore list" to do this you click the person's user name (right by their picture) and click "view public profile" and then you can find "add person to ignore list".........I would DO IT and still stick around, because you will find that NOT all members here are that way :)

[Island dog]

Thanks ACooper, I have used the 'ignore' - hopefully I won't have to use it often. Look forward to learning a lot from this forum to give Molly a great life.

[Goldendoodler]

I didn't know there was a Ignore button, thanks Acooper, no-one told me that.They'd rather Carry on flaming me.
I will use it hopefully not too often. :)

[PoodleMommy]

could someone explain the ignore button to those of us (probably only me) too slow to understand.

Say I pick to ignore Lizmo (sorry Jennifer, your the last person in the world I would not want to talk to thats why i picked you,lol)... so anyway, would she no longer see my posts or would I no longer see her posts, or both?

I was unaware of this feature as well and would love to use it in order to cut controversy.

thanks.

elissa

[Dizzy]

could someone explain the ignore button to those of us (probably only me) too slow to understand.

Say I pick to ignore Lizmo (sorry Jennifer, your the last person in the world I would not want to talk to thats why i picked you,lol)... so anyway, would she no longer see my posts or would I no longer see her posts, or both?

I was unaware of this feature as well and would love to use it in order to cut controversy.

thanks.

elissa

Just pick someone and have a play - you can turn it off again.

I think you can see when they post, but you can't read it.

And they can see you I think.

[SharkyX]

They can see everything you write, you can see that they posted, however you don't see the content... so if you get truely curious you can disable the ignore read what they said and then turn ignore back on again.

[PoodleMommy]

They can see everything you write, you can see that they posted, however you don't see the content... so if you get truely curious you can disable the ignore read what they said and then turn ignore back on again.

that seems pointless...lol

I thought it would be more along the lines of you not seeing them and them not seeing you, like they were zapped out of cyber world, haha... that would have been soo much better... oh well..

thanks for the explanation.

Elissa

[SharkyX]

Well in order for them to not see you, they'd also have to put you on ignore... basically you'd have to agree you didn't like each other...

The ignore function here really just offers you the escape of reading some of the inane ramblings of some of the members if you find it to be really that annoying.

I tried it for a while with some members... I found it to be kind of annoying... there are members here whom I find it pretty easy to argue with... but it's just the web and sometimes a healthy debate can be alot of fun.

[ACooper]

Yes sadly you still see their name..........but nothing they write in a post. It's not perfect, but better than nothing :)

[Island dog]

Works for me. It's like call display on the phone - not interested in what they have to say so I don't answer. Eliminates the nuisance - easy.

[SharkyX]

I just skip over there posts but each to there own :)

[labman]

I think this is one of the main reasons I like this site.The moderators are open-minded and tolerant of other views about worldly problems-politics,religion etc.
But it is also kind of a "bummer" when others try to twist ones (opinion)or(point) around just because they don't agree,understand or conceive it, but that is to be expected.

[Renee750il]

I think this is one of the main reasons I like this site.The moderators are open-minded and tolerant of other views about worldly problems-politics,religion etc.
But it is also kind of a "bummer" when others try to twist ones (opinion)or(point) around just because they don't agree,understand or conceive it, but that is to be expected.

Kinda like out in the flesh and blood world, hmm? ;)

[LilyoftheValley]

Ok, I'm sorry if this is a newbie question. I'm quite new to forums and things, What is 'Trolling'?? What is the true definiton? I have no clue

Thankyou!

LilyoftheValley

[Renee750il]

Here you go, Lily: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10544

A humorous, but good explanation of what a "troll" is :)

[LilyoftheValley]

Thankyou Renee :)

[noludoru]

*bump*

I went and re-read the thread.. I think it will be a good read for everyone.