Put yourself in my place - opinions please

[IliamnasQuest]

Hi all -

Some of you have already heard some of this, but I'd like to bring it up again and just get some honest opinions. What I'd like you to do is imagine yourself with this dog, imagine that you're not against breeding a quality animal, and forget about cost, risks, etc. This is purely based on your feelings about breeding this specific dog with these specific qualifications.

Here it is: imagine that you own this girl: Chow, born 11/3/04 so will be three years old this November. She's conformationally correct with just a few slight imperfections: body is slightly long (which is your preference, because the very square dogs have problems being physically agile); she's moderate in bone and face (also your preference, in order to avoid the ponderous, snorting chow type).

She has an exquisite temperament with zero aggression toward humans OR dogs. She does have prey drive and would like to catch squirrels, however.

She's earned points in both AKC and CKC (Canada) conformation, both in just one weekend of showing in each venue. There have been no available majors in your area and you have chosen not to pursue a championship because of this. Instead, you've shown her in AKC rally and obedience, and she's qualified 11 of the 12 times she's been in the ring, earning all three rally titles and 2/3 of her CD (with the CD expected to be finished with the upcoming weekend of trials which would mean she's earned three titles since March). She's started in agility and is very athletic and capable, learning to weave six poles (inline, no wires) in about one week. She also learned a "foot" command for the contacts within about a week. The only thing holding her back in agility is YOU and your limitations.

She's well started on retrieving and jumps and your intention is to train toward a CDX and possibly a UD, as well as tracking.

She has also certified as a therapy dog and has visited the local nursing home as well as Boys and Girls Club.

In the past six months, you've concentrated on health certifications. She has passed OFA hips (good), elbows, patellas, thyroid, cardiac and eyes (CERF). She is only the sixth chow ever to pass all of these, and her father was the first. Her uncle is also one of the six. In her four generation pedigree, 25 of the 30 dogs show health certifications - many with multiple certifications and several with OFA excellent rated hips. Also in the four generation pedigree, 19 dogs have championships and there's also a scattering of obedience titles (NOT common in the breed).

You're sure that you would keep one pup and it's likely that a pup would go to her breeder and another to the breeder of her sire. Chow litters are generally around four pups. You haven't even begun to put out the word since you haven't decided to breed her, so it's pretty sure that finding quality homes would not be an issue.

Based on this information and from a non-emotional standpoint, what would be the pro's and con's that you would consider regarding breeding of this particular bitch?

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[showpug]

I see absolutely no issue breeding this bitch IMO.

[mrose_s]

I can't have an opinion on this but GOOD JOB with her! you have obvisouly put in a lot of work and its paid off.

[Doberluv]

I don't see any problem with it either. As long as she is better than loads of Chows out there and you think she will improve upon the breed as a whole, go for it.

[noludoru]

I'm definitely not experienced here, but she sounds like she would be a great contributor to the breed.

Your only cons are that she doesn't have a CH. I would love to see her achieve that.

[HoundedByHounds]

One thing I might consider doing, just really to see what might happen, is showing her at your National to get an overview for what is out there right now...and let people in your breed have a look at her, and also to get a hands on look at stud dogs.

I would agree with those that see no big issue with breeding this bitch.

[SummerRiot]

Ohh.. I really like the idea of Checking out the national for the ChowChows!

Other then that, I think you are doing all the right things for your breed and dont see any fault in it.

You would be truely bettering the breed.

Would you keep a pup?

[Zoom]

I dont' have anything new to add...I agree with the idea of taking her to a Special just to get a chow judge to size her up again. Otherwise, she sounds pretty good.

[Buffalo Soldier]

What would the purpose be for the pups? Would one or two go on to contribute to the breed by being bred or would they all just be pets? Do you have a plan?

[SizzleDog]

I see no problem in breeding this girl, IMO.

[daaqa]

if i had a choice between buying a pup whose dam had a CH, or one of your pups, i would takes yours hands down. good job. sounds like a great contribution to the breed.

[IliamnasQuest]

Thanks so much for the comments - I appreciate the honest opinions. I want to consider and resolve any questions (for myself) that there may be about breeding her, and then make an educated choice. I'm NOT a breeder, this would be my first litter and I take it seriously.

On the nationals/specialty: I really WANTED to go to nationals this year (have been twice before with a different chow) but it didn't work out. It takes a certain kind of judge to place her over the heavier style out there. There ARE judges who are going for more leg and overall balance, but there are more who are still into the heavy bone, heavy head (in fact, some base their judging nearly all on how heavy the faces are). At nationals she would have been more likely to take High in Trial than a breed win .. *L* .. BUT I got her because I wanted a chow that could DO something and that's the style of this line.

We have few chows in Alaska and NO specialties, so it becomes a huge expense/commitment to travel clear down to the lower 48 to attend trials. I will admit that to ME, a conformation championship for a chow is not nearly as important as proof of temperament, athletic ability, working ability and intelligence. There currently are no working lines in this breed, and this was once an extremely versatile breed that hunted, herded, packed, pulled, etc. The lack of a conformation championship in a chow that has earned four other titles, is working in agility and is a therapy dog is of little consequence to my personal decision whether or not to breed. However, I do understand that other people do consider a CH as proof of a certain level of quality, so I understand the questions/concerns on that.

She HAS been assessed by numerous experienced chow people and they have commented freely on both her good points and her weaker points. Her breeder and the breeder of her sire are very active in the conformation world. The breeder who bred her sire is very well known and this winter was showcased in the national breed magazine. She discussed three important dogs she's had since she started in chows 30 years ago, and Khana's sire was one of them. And after Khana passed her health clearances, she contacted me and asked that I consider the possibility of breeding.

I would definitely plan on keeping a pup. MY plans for a pup are much like I've done with Khana - primarily performance events. Khana's breeder is working on establishing her lines and would be interested in a pup for show and obedience. It would all, of course, depend on what she produced as to what the pups would do - but, given the mentorship of the experienced breeders, we would weigh the pros and cons of various studs and what they would offer that would complement the qualities she already has.

Given Khana's health certifications and the fact that so few chows have passed all of these (AND that her father also passed them, plus her father's brother), a litter from her could very well produce a pup or two that would go back to the original breeder of the line to continue the solidification of health. In chows, health is a huge consideration - 47% have elbow dysplasia, and hips/thyroid/patellas/eyes are all a problem in the breed. A large number of breeders - including show breeders - still try to ignore the health problems.

And any pups in the litter that would best be pet puppies would hopefully carry on the good health AND the amazing temperament (another area that chows need to improve).

Hopefully that answered some of the questions. I'm hitting a time frame where I have to decide one way or the other. She'll soon be three and she'll be in a lapse between trials (once she completes her CD, she's not trained enough to go on yet and isn't ready for agility either, so we have no plans to trial for some time now). In all honesty I'm probably 25% toward breeding her, 75% toward not. I have a lot to consider and if it weren't for the encouragement of the various other chow breeders, I probably wouldn't even be 25%.

And then, on the other hand, there just aren't many things cuter than a litter of chow puppies .. *LOL*

Thanks again, and I'd appreciate any more comments about things to consider.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

http://www.kippsdogs.com/khana1augheel4sm.jpg

[FrenchKissed]

Hi all -

Melanie and the gang in Alaska



In your heart of hearts if you know the breeding is what you want, then that is the answer you need to follow. No one can tell you right from wrong in something like this, because it is so personal.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

[FoxyWench]

personally from everything you said, i would have no problme including this dog in a breeding program.
personally i prefer the look of the "older" style chows who arnt as overdone and can actually still do the work they were originally bred for...seems like this girl has proven that she has everything this breed SHOULD have in terms of ability AND she looks like a chow should in my opinion, i dont like the overly heavy chows that cant breath properly!

[corgipower]

i love the working titles on a chow!! you don't see a lot of them in the obedience and agility rings, probably because the athleticism and temperament has been bred out of them. sounds like she would be a great one to help bring working abilities back into the breed.

i always look for working titles in the line before i look for conformation titles when i buy a pup.

i see no reason not to breed her.

[HoundedByHounds]

On the nationals/specialty: I really WANTED to go to nationals this year (have been twice before with a different chow) but it didn't work out. It takes a certain kind of judge to place her over the heavier style out there. There ARE judges who are going for more leg and overall balance, but there are more who are still into the heavy bone, heavy head (in fact, some base their judging nearly all on how heavy the faces are). At nationals she would have been more likely to take High in Trial than a breed win

I can totally understand this but...in the end more dogs at a National will LOSE than will win...and that to me winning, IMO is not the reason to enter a Nats. The reason is as I said to gain input from your peers and allow different types to be shown and exposed to said peers. They cannot get used to a type or style of dog if they are left home because they are "different"...if they are correct, to standard dogs then they should be shown and d*mn the torpedoes. ;)

I understand you wanting just the right judge, completely...we have the same thing in Beagles with color...but...I just wanted to throw the idea out there.

[BostonBanker]

I have a question that may or may not have anything to do with your original question, but it's something I've been wondering and I think you are the best person to answer it.

I know that chows are supposed to be aloof (is that actually in the standard?). How would a less aloof/more "friendly" (outgoing is maybe a better word) temperment affect the dog's quality? I mean, I can see advantages to trying to make the temperment more of what America expects a dog to be, but then of course you are losing part of what makes them a chow. Khana obviously has a great and friendly temperment with the therapy work she does; does she still retain the chow aloofness, or is she more outgoing than most?

Does that make any sense? It's something I've wondered about with a few breeds.

[planet molosser]

PRO PRO All PRO :) Her bloodline needs to be bred. AAAAAAAAAAA Thumbs Up

Con A you will have a hard time giving up one puppy let alone all.
Con B You run the risk of anything going wrong during the pregnancy that in RARE cases you can lose her
CON C She wont be able to compete for a while.
CON Sometimes the best homes turn out to be the worst.

[IliamnasQuest]

Ahh, some more great comments - thank you!

FrenchK - thanks - I posted this because I do want to be fully aware of anything I may have missed in my consideration. Just wanting to breed her isn't enough. I need to be sure that this will be a proper contribution to the breed and not just some half-baked idea to produce some puppies for sale.

FoaxyWench and corgi - yeah, the working side is a HUGE draw to me! One of the things that impressed me about her (before I got her) was that there were some obedience titles in her pedigree.

Hounded - that's a very valid point, thank you. I've tried to get her out and seen by people "in the know" but it is a tad bit limited here. If I were to make it to nationals, however, I would probably enter her in obedience and not breed. She can still be assessed by people without me having to go through the trouble of showing her in the breed ring (something I'm truly not fond of).

BostonBanker - that's a good question and one I get asked occasionally. The concept of "aloof" is really open to interpretation, and a lot of people excuse their dog's aggression because of that term (not only in chows). What I've found with my girls is that they can be friendly and accepting of people and dogs, and yet still be aloof in the sense that once they acknowledge a person they then go off and do their own thing. Chows don't NEED people like so many other breeds do. They're usually not tremendously cuddly dogs.

Khana, on the other hand, was raised in a very cuddly atmosphere (I was pretty much bedridden the first three months I had her). She started out with a great temperament through heredity, and I shaped that into her being a very warm and loving dog just through the necessity at the time. I don't think she would have been near this cuddly if things had been more normal. She's very outgoing with people and I've encouraged that, too, but as she matures I'm starting to see a bit more of that aloof nature come through. She wants to greet people but then will settle and do her own thing.

None of my chows are allowed to be in the least aggressive, so that's never been OUR definition of "aloof". I would actually prefer Khana to be a bit more aloof as she can go overboard in greeting .. *L* .. but I do think that will develop more as she matures more. I do expect that she'll always be a very kind, very loving girl.

Planet molosser - some good points, thank you. Finding good homes would be one of my most difficult tasks, I think. I would hope that if I bred, pups would go back to the other breeders as that would be much easier than finding homes with strangers. But yes .. I'd agonize over that and be tempted to keep them ALL. Long before I bred her I'd be searching for possible homes.

All good comments, thanks again!

Melanie

[FrenchKissed]

Ahh, some more great comments - thank you!

FrenchK - thanks - I posted this because I do want to be fully aware of anything I may have missed in my consideration. Just wanting to breed her isn't enough. I need to be sure that this will be a proper contribution to the breed and not just some half-baked idea to produce some puppies for sale.



I don't think anyone would have ever thought that of you. You have obviously thought long and hard about the whole ordeal.
Good luck.

[BostonBanker]

Thanks for answering. I certainly have fallen into the trap of aloof = aggressive in terms of chows; we have two very bad local breeders, and I've seen a lot of their dogs with some serious issues. It is often just passed off as "chow personality". I realized even as I was typing, that I referred to "friendly" as the opposite of aloof, when outgoing is probably more appropriate.

Whether you breed her or not, you have an awful lot to be proud of with her. Despite all my bad experiences with the breed, I think she is not only stunning, but has a pretty impressive resume! Good luck in whatever you choose.

[Fran27]

I think she should definitely be bred, especially considering the problems in the breed. The question would be, what would you look for in a stud?

[IliamnasQuest]

Thanks for answering. I certainly have fallen into the trap of aloof = aggressive in terms of chows; we have two very bad local breeders, and I've seen a lot of their dogs with some serious issues. It is often just passed off as "chow personality". I realized even as I was typing, that I referred to "friendly" as the opposite of aloof, when outgoing is probably more appropriate.

Whether you breed her or not, you have an awful lot to be proud of with her. Despite all my bad experiences with the breed, I think she is not only stunning, but has a pretty impressive resume! Good luck in whatever you choose.

Thank you for the compliments - I'm really proud of her, she's a fun dog and I love her to death.

It's no wonder that non-chow people fall into the "trap" of thinking of aloof as aggressive when chow owners and breeders USE that excuse. It's wrong for them to do so, especially in this day and age of BSL. I get really irritated with chow people who excuse their dog's behavior by attributing it to "chow personality". The personality excuse is also the reason why most people don't bother to obedience train or title their dogs. Chows are perfectly capable of being obedient. I won't say they're as easy to train as shepherds .. *L* .. but it's certainly do-able. But breeders don't want to feel that they HAVE to put performance titles on their chows, I'm sure.

I'm of the mindset that dogs should only earn championships if they pass appropriate temperament testing as well as some sort of proof of athletic ability and/or intelligence. As you can imagine, my opinion is not popular with many people .. *L*

Fran - well, that's a BIG question! *L* I would definitely use the knowledge and experience of the breeders behind Khana's pedigree when looking for a stud. She's mostly of the Redcloud line of chows and I REALLY like the health and temperament of this line. It's likely I would breed to a dog with some similar lines. A few dogs have already been suggested by these breeders. We have an eye on her physical weaknesses and that would be a huge consideration in the choice to make sure we bred away from those. Her body is slightly long but in all honesty I LIKE that as it helps her be very athletic and flexible (compared to the typical very square chow of today) so I'm not sure I would want to push for a pups that are really square. One possibility is a dog that is a very close relative and is the same basic lines on the mother's side, but the stud they chose as the father was a dog from the 80's (frozen semen, of course) who is an outcrossing. There's some validity to the "old vigor" and the pup produced is a very good-looking dog. He's not quite two so he hasn't had his health certifications done yet.

There are many other things I have to take into consideration, too, such as the impracticality of breeding via AI (which is the only way it could really be done, given where I live and that there are no males within thousands of miles that would complement her lines). There's also the fact that we don't have a really knowledgeable vet in my immediate area that could do AI. I'd have to travel to Anchorage (150 miles) to have any reproductive work done. And then, of course, there's the consideration of the cost which could be quite high. These are all things I'm thinking about.

It'd be a lot easier if I could just collect her eggs and send them out like they collect semen and send it .. *L* .. the breeding procedure seems way more complicated than I'd like it to be. I don't mind raising puppies and would truly enjoy that side of it, but the breeding/AI/pregnancy/birth are not something I look forward to.

Ack. After all this I'm down to about 20% for and 80% against .. :D

Melanie and the gang

[oc_spirit]

I'd say breed her. She is a VERY valuable dog to the Chow breed and she could bring so much good especially considering how down hill the breed seems to be going (with people over-exaggerating conformation). She's such an impressive bitch who has proven herself repeatedly! I say go for it!

[HarleyD]

I don't want to be a downer, but after reading 2 pages of the "good stuff" I feel someone should bring this up.

What if something goes wrong when you breed her? What if the puppies are deformed or don't make it? What will you do if the pups can live but are deformed due to some genetic throwback (it's a long shot but possible)? What will you do if your 3 yo, otherwise healthy, Chow doesn't make it...or has to go into surgery and there are complications?

I really don't want to be a downer and I do think your dog would better the breed and be great to breed with...especially if you have a great sire. It's just that I don't want you to think of all the good things and forget that bad things do happen sometimes.

Sorry...don't hate me.

[OutlineACDs]

I don't want to be a downer, but after reading 2 pages of the "good stuff" I feel someone should bring this up.

What if something goes wrong when you breed her? What if the puppies are deformed or don't make it? What will you do if the pups can live but are deformed due to some genetic throwback (it's a long shot but possible)? What will you do if your 3 yo, otherwise healthy, Chow doesn't make it...or has to go into surgery and there are complications?

I really don't want to be a downer and I do think your dog would better the breed and be great to breed with...especially if you have a great sire. It's just that I don't want you to think of all the good things and forget that bad things do happen sometimes.

Sorry...don't hate me.


This is something everyone who breeds a litter must face. I think Melanie knows the risks. She is just trying to decide if she should breed Khana or not.

[HoundedByHounds]

Last thing I'll add is to consider all the bitches in the pedigree and make sure they were good breeders, mothers, and whelpers.

That's very much a genetic thing and reproductive vigor should be higher on folks lists than it often is.

[Bahamutt99]

I would do it. Especially if you feel your girl excels in an area in which your breed usually lacks.

[Boemy]

Given her health tests, temperament, and achievements, I think she would do nothing but improve the breed! :) It's great that she's a working chow.

[sheepjoke]

I think your breed NEEDS your bitch! With all the aggression and health issues in chows, I'd not be concerned at all if she doesnt get her Ch....that is not the only determinating factor in breeding. And yes there are risks...but I am assuming you know those, but are considering "ethical" aspects of breeding your bitch. She's not perfect conformationally...but no dog is! Her head is not her fortune, but I think their heads are getting too extreme anywya...jmnsho. The problem would be finding a suitable typey stud dog who is health tested and has a good, stable temperament. Decding to breed her is the easy part...then you have to stud dog shop! I'd rather have a healthy temperamentally sane dog anyday over a typy basket case sickly dog.





sheepjoke

[IliamnasQuest]

Thanks for the continued comments - I appreciate both the compliments AND the cautionary responses.

I've definitely considered the "what if's" and that's probably what holds me back as much as anything. I worked as a vet tech for years and saw some of the problems that can occur. I'd be devastated if I made this choice and then Khana paid the price (I'm sure, at this point, that she doesn't care one way or the other about having puppies, although I DO think she is a mothering type and would be a good brood bitch). I've also considered the "what if's" on the puppies. As far as I know on her background (in talking with her breeder, and the breeder of her sire and many of her relatives) this line tends to do well in the breeding department.

You know, this forum has been accused of being "anti-breeder" but this thread - and others recently - should prove that the people here are NOT "anti-breeder" at all .. they're more "anti-BAD-breeder" than anything else. I think when people do the right things and take careful consideration of the breedings they plan, then this forum is very supportive. Everyone just wants to see what is right for the dogs, and even though rescue is stressed here most people can see the reasons behind producing physically and mentally healthy puppies in specific breeds. I encourage people to adopt or rescue, but if they want a purebred puppy and that's what is important to them, then helping them understand what makes a good breeding is vital.

Khana is sprawled out on the floor beside me, sound asleep. Puppies are probably the farthest thing from her mind .. *L*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[HarleyD]

Of course it's not against breeding. I haven't been around long, but from what I can see chaz is more against bad breeding (health/temperament,etc), bad breeders (byb's/puppy mills/store dogs) and poor pedigree (no proven hunting/show/agility/CGC, etc). Those are the 3 important things. Health, good breeder doing it for the right reasons and that the dog is actually improving the breed...not just breeding for puppies or designer dogs or to make money.

Granted, accidents do happen sometimes...but people and dogs usually pay the price and learn to prevent those accidents in the future.

Seems to me like you've got it planned out pretty good. Cover your bases, do research on whelping *if you haven't already* and make sure Khana stays healthy and happy and that all the pups are too. :)

[HarleyD]

Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is telling the truth about their dog so people can get a little testy if they don't believe you...but it seems like you know exactly what you're talking about and I don't think you could be lying at all! :) Some are easy to see through and those are the one's that chaz is worried about/for.

[sheepjoke]

Off topic here, but I want to say to HarleyD:
Your Harley is VERY PRETTY!! Buster is handsome, too...but Harley is just awesome!



sheepjoke

[HarleyD]

Thanks. :) However, I can not take credit for these pups. Even though they all look exactly like mine they are simply internet pictures cause I don't have any on the computer. :(
Considering Harley and Buster look EXACTLY like those pictures, I can take a little credit...but alas, poor Cocoa's pic does not do justice to the real dog.