Thinking about Breeding....... [Archive]

Ranchnhoney

09-29-2007, 10:54 PM

I am thinking about breeding my JRT in a little over a year (at her 3rd or later heat) but want to know EVERYTHING before making that kind of commitment. So needless to say I have a lot of questions to ask. :confused:

1.) What are the best shows to put her in? She is registered with ACA but can I compete in some of the AKC Competitions?

2.) What is the best Book to get to help me prepare her for these competitions?

3.)What is the best Puppy rearing/ breeding book?

4.) What should I look for in a stud? HOw do you find a reputable one?

5.) How far should I go for a stud (there are really no JRT breeders in this area except for BYB) and what is the common type of payment for thier services?

I want to make an informed decision and am not trying to ruffle anyones feathers or get fussed at. So please if anyone has any helpfull info I would greatly appreciate it. The only breeder I know of breeds Great Danes so while she will be a great help I can't expect her to know everything about breeding JRT"S. Plus if anyone knows of a good JRT breeder close to the New Orleans area That I could talk to I would also be very greatfull. I want to be as informed as I possibally can be because I do understand how big of a commitment it is to breed.

Aussie Red

09-29-2007, 10:58 PM

-------------------------------------------------------

FrenchKissed

09-29-2007, 11:16 PM

"I am thinking about breeding my JRT in a little over a year (at her 3rd or later heat) but want to know EVERYTHING before making that kind of commitment. So needless to say I have a lot of questions to ask. :confused:

1.) What are the best shows to put her in? She is registered with ACA but can I compete in some of the AKC Competitions?"

You can only compete in AKC if she had an ILP number which would require her to be altered. I do not think that the ACA is a legitimate exhibiting registry so they probably do not offer shows. You might be able to get her UKC registered and participate in earthdog events and conformation. I am not 100% sure on the requirements for UKC registration...but I was thinking that they offered an unknown background registration to introduce new stock, but I could be wrong.

"2.) What is the best Book to get to help me prepare her for these competitions?"

There are lots of good books. The book of the bitch, breeding better dogs, the joy of breeding your own show dog...but nothing will help you more than your fellow breeders. Dogs rarely go by "the book".

"3.)What is the best Puppy rearing/ breeding book?"

The above have sections mentioned, my personal favorite is The art of raising a puppy by the monks of new skete.

"4.) What should I look for in a stud? HOw do you find a reputable one?"

This one is going to be hard to answer. But basically you need a stud that has everything your bitch doesn't. The only way to learn this is to get involved in your breed. You may want to try earth dog events as well as conformation.

"5.) How far should I go for a stud (there are really no JRT breeders in this area except for BYB) and what is the common type of payment for thier services?"

No distance can be too far for the right dog. If you have to import frozen semen from across the globe, do it. Never skimp on what you feel is the best choice for your bitch.
Most stud dog owners take normal forms of payment, cash, check, moneyorder, if you use and over seas dog a bank transfer.

"Plus if anyone knows of a good JRT breeder close to the New Orleans area That I could talk to I would also be very greatfull. I want to be as informed as I possibally can be because I do understand how big of a commitment it is to breed."

You can try contacting JRT breeders through the AKC website, they are called the Parsons Terrier there (if I remember right)...other wise try contacting the breed club with the UKC or a UKC earth dog club.

yoko

09-29-2007, 11:16 PM

try going to a breed club :) they might be able to tell you want needs to be done. with health testing and proving the dog:)

noludoru

09-29-2007, 11:33 PM

Couple questions for ya....

1.) Where did you get your dog from? A pet store, a rescue, a breeder? If a breeder, how long is the pedigree you got and how many dogs with titles are in the first few generations? How many dogs in her pedigree have been health tested?

2.) Why do you want to breed her?

Momof2Pups

09-29-2007, 11:56 PM

Good questions nolu. Definitely two of the most important ones.
Since you seem interested in showing, I'll go that direction instead of hunting/other performance/working direction.
Was she sold as show quality? I remember another member got her dog from a breeder and wanted to show and breed her female, and she realized that her dog was not able to be shown due to poor conformation (from a less than great breeder), she will be a beloved spayed pet, and her owner (as far as I last heard) is going to get her next dog from a show breeder with that particular purpose.
Usually reputable breeders will only stud their dogs out to females that meet their criteria of performance and titles or working ability. Studs are carefully selected to even out the qualities of the breeding pair. Sometimes payment is a sum of money and sometimes it's pick of the litter or another sort of deal.

I'd look at your breed clubs and go to a dog show, talk to people in JRTs and that can give you advice.
Really think hard about the responsibilty. Taking a dog to its championship and breeding is extremely expensive and a huge commitment, as you're bringing dogs into an already extremely overpopulated world. Be very careful and make sure you're entirely serious about it.
On another note, I like to see people do additional things to showing like competitive obedience, herding, agility, therapy, etc.

Ranchnhoney

09-30-2007, 12:07 AM

I bought her from a breeder in MO. Her papers go back 4 generations, Not sure what titles her parents had, can't seem to find the papers at this moment. They are in my file cabinet but I am not the most organized. :( But Animals, small animals mostly, have always been my passion. I even went to school for pre-vet and This is lame but having puppies was something I wanted to do since a kid. I have 4 people who already want a JRT, and ever since I was introduced to this breed I love them. I am sure every owner feels this way but I think they are the best breed to have. They are small enough to be unobtrusive in the home, Hardy enough to go and do outdoor activities (hunting, fishing) They are intelligent. And they are fast, they can keep up with a 4-wheeler or a horse. And the true test is they are patient, tough and playfull to stand the test of my little boy. I am a stay at home mom and I know that I will have the time to commit to raising dogs. Plus I know that once my son starts going to school I am going to have even more time to persue something I wanted to do since my first dog (I was 5).

Ranchnhoney

09-30-2007, 12:17 AM

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa318/ranchnhoney/Picture5-23-07537.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>"Was she sold as show quality? "
I am not to sure about that I know her form is but She is almost solid white (they need to have more than 51% of white to show but I don't know if (98% is ok.) and they did not state that she is show quality. I bought her cause I fell in love with her eyes and kinda regret not doing as much research as I should have. She is the one on the left in my profile and this is also her a month ago. Thats the only spot she has.

Ranchnhoney

09-30-2007, 12:18 AM

that didn't work :( Lets try again.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa318/ranchnhoney/Picture5-23-07537.jpg

noludoru

09-30-2007, 12:33 AM

Um... well... If I am not mistaken Missouri is the puppymill capital of the US. If you don't have any champions or dogs with other titles, or health testing done in her pedigree, and you and your breeder didn't have very long talks about her, the breed, your intent to show, etc, she is almost definitely not show quality.

When you visited your breeder you first should have been able to visit the dam and check her out... her breeder ought to have told you all about her accomplishments, her titles, what makes her breed worthy and why her puppies are a great contribution to the breed. She ought to have explained all about their pedigree to you, why she chose the stud and how all of her weak points are his strong ones, and why he is the best stud to sire her litter. She should have extolled his accomplishments (at least a CH) to you, and be full of knowledge about him. In your contract, if your breeder hadn't already discussed with you that your pup is show quality and added into the contract that she needs to be shown (often these dogs, when sold to inexperienced handlers are jointly owned), she ought to have a spay/neuter contract for your pup because your breeder should only be wanting to breed the best of the best.

That brings me to my second question in my above post... why do you want to breed her?

noludoru

09-30-2007, 12:34 AM

OH and a book for you, How To Breed Your Own Show Dog.. looking up the author right now for you, I'll edit my post later. :)

EDIT: The Joys of Breeding Your Own Show Dog by Anne Seranne

HoundedByHounds

09-30-2007, 01:21 AM

I would spay the dog you have now...and spend time at shows meeting Parson people, looking at their dogs. Get to know a breeder who's dogs you like the look and temperament of..let them know you are a new person to showing but love the breed and want to go about breeding and exhibiting them in the right way.

When you find the person that will listen to you, and you feel comfortable with...and they with you....a show puppy or older puppy from them will be the BEST way to break into breeding and showing dogs the right way.

IMO the dog you have now...is not one to breed or show (eta smooths almost never take points accor. to a Parson friend but the good ones are valuable ion the breeding side of things)...but she can teach you many things about the breed..and taking her to handling classes can teach you a lot about showing...but show dogs come from show people...and working dogs from working people...etc....you have to go where they are, learn what they know...and only then should you consider setting out on your own, and even then you should have a mentor guiding you.

Ranchnhoney

09-30-2007, 01:23 AM

But Animals, small animals mostly, have always been my passion. I even went to school for pre-vet and This is lame but having puppies was something I wanted to do since a kid. I have 4 people who already want a JRT, and ever since I was introduced to this breed I love them. I am sure every owner feels this way but I think they are the best breed to have. They are small enough to be unobtrusive in the home, Hardy enough to go and do outdoor activities (hunting, fishing) They are intelligent. And they are fast, they can keep up with a 4-wheeler or a horse. And the true test is they are patient, tough and playfull to stand the test of my little boy. I am a stay at home mom and I know that I will have the time to commit to raising dogs.
I'm not really sure what answer you are looking for.:confused: And I really can't give you an honest great answer because I want to learn everything before I commit to a decision of breeding her. I want to do it but as of now I want to learn and know all of everything (showing, earning titles, breeding and raising good healthy puppies) before I commit myself to anything. That's why I am asking questions. I really don't want to get in a debate "to breed or not to breed" before I know the subject completley. Right now I want to but until I learn enough to make an educated decision i can't I trully tell you my reasons.I don't even know if I'll even feel the same way. I want to learn first through research then decide if breeding her is a good thing and something I will be able to do.

IMO the dog you have now...is not one to breed or show (eta smooths almost never take points accor. to a Parson friend but the good ones are valuable ion the breeding side of things)...

Why aren't smooth ones good? Is there something wrong with them breed wise?
"Jack Russell Terriers have small V-shaped ears that should fold downward, and strong teeth with a scissor bite. The body shape is approximately square.

Jack Russell Terriers come in three coat types: smooth, broken, and rough. In all cases, the coat should be dense and not soft, feathery or linty.

A smooth coated dog should be smooth coated all over, with a dense topcoat that is approximately 1cm long. A rough-coated dog should have a double coat with fur as much as 10cm long, and should be rough-coated over its entire body."

THat's a quote of the breed standard on thier coat. Is there other different show rules.
http://www.jack-russell-terrier-pictures.com/jackrussellterrier.html
This is the sight if that doesn't bring you to it go to the .com part then click on the "Breed Standards"

HoundedByHounds

09-30-2007, 01:32 AM

ahh forgot...the biggest thing when you ask someone about breeding your dog and just about your dog in general...is a thick skin. If you cannot take and use constructive criticism and see without emotion the things people may see lacking in your dogs...responsible breeding is not for you. It's not about cute puppies or carrying on a heart dog's legacy...it's about the breed as a whole and your impact on it.

If that's uppermost in your mind it makes tough decisions, and issues you are faced with easier to resolve.

Hard facts? Puppies die, are born deformed, bitches can also die or require hugely expensive care, the act of placing a puppy with someone is a horrendously gut wrenching thing, and your responsibility NEVER ends. You must bear with grace all the idiotic things people will say when they have problems with a pup or dog you sold them..and you must do so to get your dog back safe with you ;) Breeding is expensive if everything goes right...and the expense is not always measured in dollars...but in tears and sweat and blood as well.

noludoru

09-30-2007, 01:43 AM

I'm sorry, hon, I missed your answer... if it's just puppies you want you should offer to foster a litter with your local JRT rescue or shelter. :) But it sounds to me like you want more than a litter of puppies to love, it sounds to me like you want to improve your breed and really make something of yourself and your dogs. :)

I pretty much agree with what Gina has said... spay the girl you have and really get into showing or the sport of your choice (or both--can't go wrong there!) and get a dog that you know is worthy of breeding.. show that dog, make sure she excels, and find a stud worthy of her. Then breed.

savethebulliedbreeds

09-30-2007, 01:47 AM

I would just like to commend you for wanting to do research before you decide. Not a lot of people are like you nowadays.

I would suggest finding a very reputable breeder to help you. There is also a lady on here that would be perfect for you to talk to.

Again, good for you for wanting to do the research and find out exactly what you are doing.

Ranchnhoney

09-30-2007, 02:02 AM

ahh forgot...the biggest thing when you ask someone about breeding your dog and just about your dog in general...is a thick skin. If you cannot take and use constructive criticism and see without emotion the things people may see lacking in your dogs...

I am not getting mad, I hope it doesn't sound like that. But I did start this thread to get references on books and not to get in a debate. I hate typing I am much more of a "phone" or "in person" communicator because tone is everything and I don't have an angry tone right now. I appreciate the criticism. Less than the advice :D but I want to hear the neg. as well as the pos. But while I appreciate it, I want my voice to be heard too and I don't want you to think that I am just strolling in here with an already pregnate dog saying "hey what you know about breedin'!" I just want some facts so i can come to my own decision. And I want and appreciate these facts coming from all spectrums, including the people here on Chazhound, but not excluding literature.:D

foster a litter with your local JRT rescue
I would love to do that but there isn't any around and the ones i find on the internet are dogs (not puppies) that are 1.) not good with kids (I have a 2 yr old) or are 2.)not good with pets (I have 3 dogs) . If I could get even an adult dog from a rescue I know I could find them a good home quick but I worry about them snapping because of previous experiences and hurting my kid or my dogs or a stranger while under my care. i guess I really am not an ideal foster home, though I wish I could be. Because some people are very cruel and people sometimes give just anybody a dog if they have the cash:mad: .

There is also a lady on here that would be perfect for you to talk to.

what's her screen name?

~Tucker&Me~

09-30-2007, 02:28 AM

Contact Dekka on here. She's very knowledgable about JRTs.

I agree that you should spay your current dog and get a show prospect from a breeder.

However, if I were you I would also look into fostering a pregnant bitch and raise the litter.

~Tucker

Bob4eva

09-30-2007, 07:15 AM

You sound like someone who actually wants to better the breed, so why not nueter her and get a dog you Know is show and breed quality.

I notice your in america.They got a big overpopulation problem over there.So maybe foster a pregnant bitch or an allready born litter?
That way you get the puppies you so crave and also save a few dogs from Euthanasia.

bubbatd

09-30-2007, 10:58 AM

I know dittily-dick about JRTs , but if I had a male requested as a stud ... I would want a female with more color . I'd leave JRT breeding up to a show breeder personally .

mrose_s

09-30-2007, 11:12 AM

I'll leave this up tot he people that know more than me but I wanted to say congratulations and thankyu for wanting to educate yourself before breeding, I would love to breed one day. But my first dog of that breed I will not intend on breeding, showing or working yes but thats to learn about my breed, find a good mentor that can take you through everything, gather allt he info you can so you can answer any prospective buys questions about the breed, get your foundation bitch, show/work, health test and I believe every dog shoul be temp tested aswell.

If you want to breed, its to improve the breed, to ensure future generations have less health problems and are closer to standard then ever before

savethebulliedbreeds

09-30-2007, 11:16 AM

Ok, but I have a question. JRT's are more of a working dog than a show dog right? So looks aren't everything with JRT's right?

What if this dog was proved an amazing working dog? Should she still not breed it because it doesn't have a lot of color?

I am just a bit confused here because if I wanted a working breed dog like the JRT I would be more concerned if it could actually do the work and was healthy than what it looked like.

PWCorgi

09-30-2007, 11:59 AM

You talk about showing, but as far as I know Jack Russell Terriers aren't even recognized by AKC anymore.

FrenchKissed

09-30-2007, 12:03 PM

You talk about showing, but as far as I know Jack Russell Terriers aren't even recognized by AKC anymore.

They were renamed the Parsons Russle terrier...still the same breed though.

PWCorgi

09-30-2007, 12:46 PM

They were renamed the Parsons Russle terrier...still the same breed though.

I thought they had different body structure?
lol, shows how much I know :p

Xerxes

09-30-2007, 01:19 PM

The first thing I would do is to start here:

http://www.akc.org/breeds/parson_russell_terrier/index.cfm

This will give you an idea if your bitch is up to standard.

Personally I would not breed any bitch until at least 2.5 yrs old. That's just me though, I do know some breeders that will finish their dogs and put them into the breeding program at 1.5-2 yrs of age. That's too early in my estimation.

The ACA is not a preferred registry with hobby breeders. The reason for this is that registering with the ACA does not even require a pedigree. Heck, according to their site (http://www.acacanines.com/whyregister.htm)you don't even have to provide breed information.

The ACA does have events. http://www.acacanines.com/ACA%20Website%202007/dogshows.html"]

However it doesn't appear that they are too interested in conformation events at all. The health certifications that the registry offers are, for the most part, a joke.

I tend to agree with Hounded and the majority of the others on this thread so far. You would better serve the breed and yourself by becoming involved in the breed, finding a mentor and spaying the bitch you have now. When it's tme for a new pup, purchase one from show lines, as a conformation dog, and prove her in the show ring and in performance events. That's when you'll truly know what you have.

One of the biggest beefs I have with breeders is that most breeders do not make provision for taking back ALL of the dogs that they've bred. A breeder is responsible for those pups for life. One of my friends was expecting a litter and had 4 adult dogs returned to her for various reasons-the last arriving less than a week before the pups were whelped. She ended up having 17 or 18 dogs in her house for 12 weeks or so.

So be prepared to take back any pups you adopt at any time of their lives-without question.

I don't mean to sound cold or off putting, I'm just very pragmatic when it comes to puppies and dogs. Each of us in our respective breeds tends to be that way though some, like me, are super protective of our breed. Even though I love my breed and they are perfect for me, (as I'm sure you feel about your terrier) I can tell you that these dogs aren't perfect for many people.

Sorry to be so long winded.

JennSLK

09-30-2007, 03:08 PM

They were renamed the Parsons Russle terrier...still the same breed though.

From what I understand and have been told they are NOT the same breed. They are verry simular but not the same. Parsons can be shown here but the JRT can not be. They have different parent clubs and reg clubs here as well.

Here being Canada.

FrenchKissed

09-30-2007, 03:19 PM

From what I understand and have been told they are NOT the same breed. They are verry simular but not the same. Parsons can be shown here but the JRT can not be. They have different parent clubs and reg clubs here as well.

Here being Canada.

Hmmm...they are the same according to history.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/parson_russell_terrier/did_you_know.cfm

Parson Russell Terrier Did You Know?

The Parson Russell Terrier is AKC's 145th breed.

The Parson Russell Terrier was first bred in the south of England in the mid-1800's to hunt European red fox, both over and underground, for the sport of kings.

The breed got its name from the most renowned of British huntsman, Reverend John Russell, "The Sporting Parson," whose passion for fox hunting, hounds, and working terriers is legendary.

Arthur Heinemann, who founded the Parson Jack Russell Terrier Club in 1914, drafted the first Jack Russell breed standard in 1904.

After John Russell's death, the name "Jack Russell" was misused to describe all mix and manner of working and hunt terriers, many of which bore little, if any, similarity to Russell's own terriers.

To date, the Parson Jack Russell has been recognized under the F.C.I. umbrella by News in Germany, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, Italy, South Africa, and Australia

verderben

09-30-2007, 03:35 PM

HarleyD

09-30-2007, 05:30 PM

Some health problems the JRT can face are dislocation of the kneecaps, inherited eye diseases, deafness, Legg Perthes-a disease of the hip joints.

Good breeders get them BAER and CERF tested, and breed only to JRTCA-registered terriers.

http://www.terrier.com/jrtca/ethics.php4 (Breeding code of ethics)

http://www.terrier.com/jrtca/standard.php4 (JRT standard)

I don't see anything about to much white being a fault in competition, however, most have more color than your pup. I'd suggest getting a JRTCA or UKC registered JRT with show or hunting pedigree; then show or do hunting trials with your JRT until she's old enough to be health tested and proven to be a good breeding bitch. Find a good stud through JRTCA.

In the mean time, get your pup spayed and enjoy her as a nice housepet. You sound like you want to try and better the breed, but also want puppies around. THey cost alot and you don't make money breeding. It's a hard, thankless task and you will be responsible for all the pups their whole life...even after they are gone. Make sure you carry on good genes/health and always strive to better the breed above all else.

Not saying "don't breed" just saying "breed right". :)

bubbatd

09-30-2007, 05:34 PM

Have you thought of visiting a JRT breed club and have her evaluated before you go through all the testing and costs ??? Is a practcally all white JRT acceptable ?? I really don't know .. just questioning .

Ranchnhoney

09-30-2007, 06:02 PM

Wow! This is alot of information to digest :) Thank yall for the links and I am going to look at them. I am sad to see that ACA is a joke I didn't know that :mad:. But to answer/ comment some of the things I read.

Sugar isn't my first JRT, she is my second. I also have a male (nuetered) That I was given from an abusive situation. And he is actually who led me to get another.

A parson russell I think is actually slightly bigger, longer legs and 3-8 pounds heavier. Not positive but that's what I have always thought.

I am more interested in the the part of shows that are displaying the dogs "working ability and agility" because she is more of a "working" dog and I think that is what she would excell at. But what shows can I do if AKC won't recognize her and ACA is a joke?:confused:

And I am still looking for a JRT breed club in my area.

I realize the cost of breeding and really am not looking to make money off of it. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't complain if I did, but that really isn't behind any of my reasoning. Mostly I just want to show and breed my dog for no other reason than that. It's hard to explain. These dogs are great and so free spirited it's hard not to get hooked on them.

Also I did look into the breed rescue thing. I found the national sight and filled out an aplication. I am still unsure about the fostering thing because you never know what you are going to get and I have a little boy to protect. But I did mention I was interested in the foster care and I volunteered for other things (calling, checking up) That kinda stuff. So we will see what happens with that.

Man my answers seem to get longer as I go but I think that is everything I wanted to say.......*sigh of release*:D

HarleyD

09-30-2007, 06:23 PM

http://www.akc.org/breederinfo/breeder_search.cfm?requestTimeout=90

Kennel Club listings in Louisiana. Haas is actually my mom's horse vet!

http://www.prtaa.org/
Parson Russel Terrier - But you can see just how different or the same the breeds are or if they are one in the same.

Plus the PRT club can get you info about JRT clubs in Louisiana.

HarleyD

09-30-2007, 06:34 PM

Predominantly white with black, tan, black and tan, or no markings. *From UKC website about colorings - white is o.k. apparently)

http://www.ukcdogs.com/RegistrationBreeds.htm

Tells you about JRT.

Here's a JRT breeder in Louisiana - Brian K. Hartmann 808 Long Lane Dr.,
Farmerville, Louisiana 71241
I'd say contact him and ask him about his dogs (sires and dams) and see if his have any champions or working titles and if they've had health tested AND make sure they are registered with a reputable kennel club.

Hope this helps.

Jynx

09-30-2007, 06:39 PM

The ACA is a pretty "iffy" registration, The only way you could participate in AKC events is to get an ILP (indefinite listing privelage) however, the dog would have to be spayed in order to get an ILP...IF she had an ILP, she could participate, for titles, anything AKC offers except the conformation ring.

Do a "search" on Honey Hill JRT's..she is a good friend of mine who has been "into" JRT's for years, also does rescue and judges. She does everything with her dogs, so maybe could direct you.

If her email is still in intact, it's dlporter01@snet.net her name is Susan Porter and she's located in CT, but has JRT connections all over the US.
diane

Ranchnhoney

09-30-2007, 06:39 PM

QUOTE]Here's a JRT breeder in Louisiana - Brian K. Hartmann 808 Long Lane Dr.,
Farmerville, Louisiana 71241 [/QUOTE]

oOh THANK YOU! I was trying to follow the previous link and I must be computer illiterate because all I was getting was frustrated. Is there a phone number for this guy or do you just mail him. I think Farmville might be a ways away but I will check mapQuest I know that sight.:lol-sign: but thank you!

HarleyD

09-30-2007, 06:44 PM

There is a number but I figured it would be best not to put it on a forum with LOTS of people...especially this day in age. (nothing against chaz or it's peeps, but some people could take advantage of a phone # listed).

Personally I'd mail the guy, tell him your situation and what your looking for, etc. and offer your number so he can call you first. :)

BostonBanker

09-30-2007, 07:22 PM

I know very little about JRTs and even less about breeding, but a friend of mine recently lost hers. He was a retired show champion (not with the AKC obviously due to his age - not sure who they showed under before) and earthdog competitor, and he had about as much color on him as your female. When I commented on it, the woman told me that they preferred mostly white.

HoundedByHounds

09-30-2007, 08:23 PM

ACA is not recognized by UKC either. You need to not be too focused on showing your female...her registration percludes her being a bitch that can be shown with about any reputable registry. You can try JRTA: they have a link here on how to register with them...
http://www.terrier.com/jrtca/register.php4

They do not do conformation from what i see...only trialing...so that'd have to be something you'd be interested in doing.

In short...if you want to do conformation...you'd need to start with a new pup/dog...

If you want to do trialing and title in that....then you could use your bitch if she has the aptitude required...and if you could get her registered with JRTA.

Fran27

09-30-2007, 08:55 PM

My guess is that you didn't get your puppy from a good breeder... Sorry to be blunt but that registry is the registry people use to say their dog is registered, and it doesn't mean anything... any dog can be there, even if they are very far from the standard... and it's probably the case for your dog. It's probably best if you spay her - do you know if any testing was done on her parents? If not, you never know what genetic problems she might carry and it would be risky for the puppies to breed her anyway.

If you really want puppies, and you like JRTs, I would go to shows, talk to breeders, and try to get very knowledgeable about the breed, so you can eventually get a show prospect puppy, win a championship and breed responsibly, in order to improve the breed. But it's probably going to take a long time. Otherwise I would foster a pregnant bitch from a local shelter or rescue.

Boemy

09-30-2007, 09:29 PM

I would suggest spaying her, getting an AKC ILP number, and participating in a dog sport like earthdog or agility. You'll meet lots of people that way and hopefully get to know some good JRT breeders who can help mentor you.

IliamnasQuest

09-30-2007, 10:00 PM

First of all, KUDOS to you for asking questions first and not just breeding without any concept of what you're doing. You are finding that you'll get very honest opinions on this forum - sometimes blunt, but the information you're receiving is going to really help you.

Unfortunately, just the fact that your girl is registered through ACA probably means that she is not really breeding potential if you're wanting to do things right. The reasons that "breeders" choose to use registries like ACA is that they either using stock that isn't registered through a more reputable registry, or that they're using stock that isn't registered at ALL and they may not even know the backgrounds. There are a few of these "fake" registries that allow pretty much anything - even to the point of just accepting a person's word that the pedigree they supply is valid. Breeders who use these registries can and sometimes do just make up a pedigree, so you have no true way of knowing if anything on your dog's pedigree is true.

One of the big things in breeding is health. ALL good breeders have a huge focus on trying to eradicate and/or avoid genetic health problems in their chosen breed. If you were going to breed JRT's or PRT's, you would want to x-ray hips and elbows (through an established organization like Orthopedic Foundation of Animals or OVC, PennHip, etc.). You'd also want patellas checked, as well as thryoid (hypothyroidism appears to be more of a problem in these dogs that I would have thought). And, of course, the BAER hearing test is vitally important.

And just as important is the health of the parents and grandparents of your breeding dog. This is one of the places where it's so important to know what the true pedigree is. YOUR dog may be apparently healthy but be carrying genes for various health problems that just happen to be skipping her generation. Because of this, knowing what kind of health background her relatives had is extremely important.

The same goes for the conformation and working ability. What kind of background does she have - pedigree-wise - in championships and working titles? With an ACA pedigree you just really can't know, because anything listed could be completely false.

I would highly recommend that you choose to make this girl your learning experience. Study up on showing, attend shows, see what it's all about and talk to people (not just JRT people, but other breed people too). Have her spayed, get your ILP (indefinite listing privilege) through AKC and then show her in obedience, rally, agility, tracking, earthdog, etc. EVERY show/trial will be a learning experience and you will gain a certain cameraderie with the other dog people. Tell them that you thought of breeding and then researched and realized that a dog with an ACA registry isn't really a good way to breed, and that instead you had her spayed and you're on a quest to learn all you can before you get your next JRT or PRT. This will impress people .. believe me, dog show people/breeders see all SORTS of people who make the wrong decision, and you will look OH so good when you show them that you made the right decision.

I started off, nearly two decades ago, with purebred but non-registered dogs. I didn't know jacksh*t at the time and might have bred one of mine if I hadn't started into shows and been "educated" by others. And now I've put titles on six dogs (more than 30 performance titles) and I finally have a bitch that is definitely quality. NOW I'm considering breeding but still have a lot to make sure of in my mind before I make that final decision. And it's not all about my dog - it's about how I would feel if anything happened to her (which is always a possibility when you breed), as well as the responsibility of finding long-term, safe and loving homes for the puppies.

There's a part of me that says "yes, yes, YES, I want puppies!!!" and then the other part of me that is logical and realizes that the first part is working completely off of an emotional level .. *L* IF/when I breed my girl, I want to be able to face the dog world KNOWING I did the right thing, instead of having people muttering behind my back about poor breeding techniques.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

adojrts

09-30-2007, 11:18 PM

Ok, well were to start......
Parsons................AKC registered JRT'S, came from the JRTCA registered dogs. The sepration in breed standard between the JRTCA dogs and AKC is getting huge..........in short the AKC dogs are becoming a joke.......large, large unspannable chest, poor coats and straight angulation in the front and over angulation in the hind (sound familiar?)
Russell Terriers are the shorties and are not the same as Jack Russell Terriers (btw our dogs used to be called Parsons.......but considering how the KC dogs are starting to look, glad we have a different name.)

As for breeding for working ability........that in the JRT world meanings EARTHWORK HUNTING. Not agility, not flyball, not jrt racing........that is performance.

From the photo of the pup, it appears to be a shorty, dew claws have not been removed and the tail is docked much too short among other things.

Jrts are have genetic issues just the same as other breeds the main ones are deafness (BAER testing) and eyes (CERF), for eyes cataracts, PRA and PLL are the big ones.

There are huge numbers of JRTS/PRTS and Shorties in rescue, because people have no clue that they are breeding or purchasing a dog that is a HUNTING dog.

I have never heard of ACA, I would expect that its just a paper registry.
As for JRT experience..........well lets see, I have been Working/Breeding/Showing JRTCA reg'd dogs for many many years now, including doing some Rescue. Along with being on Board for the National club a few years ago, before the JRTCC became the shambles that it is now and from the look of things continues to go down that same road.
If you are seriously looking to get involved and becoming a responsible breeder in the future (agree you shouldn't breed the one you have now, spay) then PM me and I can point you in the right direction of breeders/shows/trials or true working people.

Lynn

Buffalo Soldier

10-01-2007, 12:04 AM

PRT and JRT = different breeds, same origin. PRT are leggy meant for the hunt by horse where the JRT goes to ground. It you are interested in a working sport, check out the terrierman. Great site!

http://www.terrierman.com/

adojrts

10-01-2007, 09:09 AM

So your point is?????????? what? that the *leggy* dogs don't go to ground?
That JRT's have short legs? If that is your point you are VERY misinformed.
The length of the leg has very little to do with correct conformantion, everything hinges on the type of quarry and the terrian. ALL earthworking terriers MUST have a small, flexiable, spannable chest regardless of whether the dog is 12 inches tall or 15".
Have you ever had a spade or locating box in your hands? Do you know how to use them? Have you ever Used them??
And please don't spout Form Follows Function unless you KNOW by personal experience from years in the working field, as to how Function relates to Form.

PRT and JRT = different breeds, same origin. PRT are leggy meant for the hunt by horse where the JRT goes to ground. It you are interested in a working sport, check out the terrierman. Great site!

http://www.terrierman.com/

Buffalo Soldier

10-01-2007, 05:51 PM

So your point is?????????? what? that the *leggy* dogs don't go to ground?
That JRT's have short legs? If that is your point you are VERY misinformed.
The length of the leg has very little to do with correct conformantion, everything hinges on the type of quarry and the terrian. ALL earthworking terriers MUST have a small, flexiable, spannable chest regardless of whether the dog is 12 inches tall or 15".
Have you ever had a spade or locating box in your hands? Do you know how to use them? Have you ever Used them??
And please don't spout Form Follows Function unless you KNOW by personal experience from years in the working field, as to how Function relates to Form.

Geeze, don't put words into people's mouths. :lol-sign:

And no, I don't have to dig a hole to appreciate working terriers or the above mentioned website.

Why not just say...

"Hi, your opinion is wrong. This is the difference (if there is any, which there obviously must be to some extent) based on my experience." Inserting an educational tidbit would have been a nice touch as well.

Thanks for the nasty-gram though. :lol-sign:

BTW, not ALL tunneling terriers have small chests as you stated above. But I won't ride you for YOUR opinion. :)

bubbatd

10-01-2007, 08:24 PM

I personally am waiting for JRT owners/breeders to come in as to a practically white female . Isn't more color wanted ???

adojrts

10-01-2007, 10:21 PM

I personally am waiting for JRT owners/breeders to come in as to a practically white female . Isn't more color wanted ???

All white Jrts are acceptable, it is not uncommon to see them. All white terriers can produce lots of colour or a dog with the max amount of colour can produce all white dogs.
Hope that helps
Lynn

Dekka

10-01-2007, 10:29 PM

Dekka had 2 pretty much pure white sisters. All white is fine, as long as there is no deafness. (not too common, but not unheard of)

I would spay her, see if she can be recorded with the JRTCA, and start going to terrier trials. Meet some JRT breeders, make some contacts, have a blast :D and learn lots.

I too have never heard of that registry.

adojrts

10-01-2007, 11:00 PM

Ah you are correct to some degree.........I should have stated it a bit better.
It is preferrable to have a small flexiable spannable chest, it is much easier for the dog to be successful. With a large chest, one often has to dig to help the dog more and of course one hopes that the quarry doesn't dig away by the time that large chested loaded dog manages to get to it. Or worse, that large chested dog gets stuck and the quarry ends up trashing that dog or killing it....................because the dog can't move correctly in the earth. Now a Terrier that is too small, can also be in trouble....they can enter and locate quickly, but they are often not large enough to hold the quarry there, or the quarry digs away or it gets trashed. If you open up an earth to smaller terriers, it is often best to have a larger dog there as a draw dog.
Again it comes down to the terrian, quarry and soil conditions.

Geeze, don't put words into people's mouths. :lol-sign:

And no, I don't have to dig a hole to appreciate working terriers or the above mentioned website.

Why not just say...

"Hi, your opinion is wrong. This is the difference (if there is any, which there obviously must be to some extent) based on my experience." Inserting an educational tidbit would have been a nice touch as well.

Thanks for the nasty-gram though. :lol-sign:

BTW, not ALL tunneling terriers have small chests as you stated above. But I won't ride you for YOUR opinion. :)

bubbatd

10-01-2007, 11:13 PM

Thanks !!! I like to see, if a litter is in the planning , that no faults are passed on . I'll now leave this to those who know JRTs !

Buffalo Soldier

10-02-2007, 12:22 AM

Ah you are correct to some degree.........I should have stated it a bit better.
It is preferrable to have a small flexiable spannable chest, it is much easier for the dog to be successful. With a large chest, one often has to dig to help the dog more and of course one hopes that the quarry doesn't dig away by the time that large chested loaded dog manages to get to it. Or worse, that large chested dog gets stuck and the quarry ends up trashing that dog or killing it....................because the dog can't move correctly in the earth. Now a Terrier that is too small, can also be in trouble....they can enter and locate quickly, but they are often not large enough to hold the quarry there, or the quarry digs away or it gets trashed. If you open up an earth to smaller terriers, it is often best to have a larger dog there as a draw dog.
Again it comes down to the terrian, quarry and soil conditions.

So, does the Scottish Terrier fit into you plans as far as small chest?

"The ribs should be well sprung out from the spine, forming a broad, strong back, then curving down and inward to form a deep body that would be nearly heart-shaped if viewed in cross-section. The topline of the back should be firm and level. The chest should be broad, very deep and well let down between the forelegs. The forechest should extend well in front of the legs and drop well down into the brisket. The chest should not be flat or concave, and the brisket should nicely fill an average man's slightly-cupped hand."

http://www.akc.org/breeds/scottish_terrier/

This description doesn't automatically proclaim small chest, does it. Then again, they are shorter dogs. :)

Dekka

10-02-2007, 07:25 AM

Buffalo Soldier, most breeds now can no longer do what they are bred to do. A fox terrier could no longer get its chest, or shoulders down a fox hole if their life depended on it.

Is a scottish terrier supposed to go underground? If so to what quarry. The chest of the hunting dog can't be much bigger than the chest of the quarry. Dekka fits down holes after groundhogs. Snip's chest is bigger, and he has a hard time, has to dig to move himself along.

adojrts

10-02-2007, 11:29 AM

Agreed, most terriers these days, regardless of some KC standard, CAN'T or WONT work. There are very few breeds of Terriers these days that continue to work as they were bred to do or maintain a working conformation to be able to do that job.

HoundedByHounds

10-02-2007, 11:48 AM

I was under the impression that a good many terrier were bred for ratting which does not so much involves holes in the ground out in nature, as scenting ability, tenacity, and agility and willingness to shake the life out of anything small and squeaky? Ratting was/is done with the human flushing the rats out into the room where the dog then kills them no?

In fact weren't some terriers used in those "sports" when a barrel of rats were poured out into a pen and the dog was graded on how many it could dispatch?

houndlove

10-02-2007, 11:50 AM

In fact weren't some terriers used in those "sports" when a barrel of rats were poured out into a pen and the dog was graded on how many it could dispatch?

Marlowe would like to know where he could sign up for this?

Xerxes

10-02-2007, 12:16 PM

Marlowe would like to know where he could sign up for this?

Xerxes wants to know if Marlowe wants a partner.

Herschel

10-02-2007, 12:53 PM

Xerxes wants to know if Marlowe wants a partner.

Herschel wants to know if rats squeak like squeaky toys.

adojrts

10-02-2007, 01:22 PM

That is correct, there were dogs used for ratting and yes they did test the dogs by over turning a barrel full of rats to see how fast and how many rats a dog could kill.
If I am not mistaken, Manchesters and Min Pins are a couple of the breeds/types that were bred/raised as topside vermin control specialists.

Many different types of Terriers had several jobs back in the 1700-1800's, they were used as pest control, both in the earth and within the Keeps/Castles, homes and barns.
Some dogs did it all, kept the rats and mice at bay, worked the riverbanks for Otter (which was considered to be vermin as well), fox and badger.
It completely depended on the terrian and quarry as to what type of terrier was used.

To my knowledge the Scottish Terrier was used to all of the above in the 1800's, photo's show a dog that was a bit leggy and a chest not as deep as seen today.
Artwork shows a dog that is similiar to todays dog, but there is no reference to them being a working dog for about a 100 years. Also the standard was changed once they came to N.A and I believe that standard was modified in the 20's or 30's.

Recently I was reading about which breeds were used and developed for ratting, along with the tests (sport lol). I saw the records etc. I'll see if I can find it again and post the link, it was interesting.

Lynn

adojrts

10-02-2007, 04:35 PM

Here is a quote from the Manchester website concerning ratting.

'Originally bred as a "ratting machine" Manchester's made frequent and highly acclaimed appearances in the rat pits. One Manchester named Billy is still lauded for his accomplishments, having in 1827 killed 100 rats in only 12 minutes! It was during the mid-1900s that smaller versions of the Black and Tan began to appear due to a trend toward miniaturization. Not to be outdone at least one of these smaller versions, a five pounder appropriately named "Tiny," is known to have killed 100 rats in the astonishing time of 5 1/2 minutes!'

HoundedByHounds

10-02-2007, 04:44 PM

I also think that saying a dog could not do what is was bred to do is a subjective statement considering the kills many terrier breeds have racked up simply in their own backyards. Show dogs can and will gamely attend to the task of killing a small rodent...whih is just as much a part of their heritage as going/fitting down a hole, no?

IMO the fact that they are Terriers still, today...is evidenced by about everyone who owns one's comments like "This dog drives me nuts but I love him!"

Terriers are NOT easy dogs to own...and that IMO is directly due to the fact that they VERY MUCH retain their instincts to kill small things, be territorial, dig holes, escape, etc....and IMO from my experience I see plenty of gameness left in MOST Terrier breed regardless of the size of their bodies.

Now physically incapable of fitting down a hole? I can certainly buy that in some cases...but Airedales and Kerry's perhaps weren't SUPPOSED to fit entirely down a rabbit hole...so making all encompassing remarks about and entire GROUP is IMO unfair.

adojrts

10-02-2007, 08:18 PM

Sorry I don't agree, considering that most terrier breeds did actually enter the earth and either bolted the quarry or bottled it up until dug to. Killing a rat or a mole topside is in no way the same, any dog can be brave enough to do that. Many of the terriers bred to do such jobs do not have the instincts or the moxy to enter a live earth. Let alone locate the quarry and work it, especially when the quarry has teeth and claws that they readily use. Keep in mind that while in the earth, the terrier follows their nose, there is no light.

I know all kinds of terriers (jrts plus other breeds), that will kill a cat, mole, rat etc, they will even take on a raccoon topside, but that same dog doesn't have what it takes to be a earthworking terrier.

.*..so making all encompassing remarks about and entire GROUP is IMO unfair.*

Unfair?? No in the opinion of earthworking terriermen/woman from around the world it is fact. Trying to find a true earthworking breed of dog that is a proven earthworker can be very very difficult.
A friend of mine is a breeder of working Jrts, he wanted to have a 'coloured terrier', he decided on Border Terriers. He couldn't find ONE breeder in N.A that would PROVE they had earthworking BT's. They all said, yep they are workers.......but when he wanted to make the trip to them and go hunting with them, not one of those breeders would take him up on the offer. He ended up purchasing from Ireland, of course he went there first for two weeks and spent that time hunting. THEN he purchased from that earthworking terrierman. And those BT's that he purchased, although are very similiar to what we see here in N.A, there are very noticeable differences, especially in the shape and size of the chest. I made a point of asking people that I knew with BT's here, if I could span their dogs to do a comparison to my friends BT's from Ireland.............HUGE difference........oh yeah and several of them are Titled Conformation dogs/bitches.
Hey did ya know that back in the 1700's, Bassetts were used to enter earths to badger?? yep true, but they are certainly not called Terriers. Just like there are dogs that are now called Terriers by Kennel Club that may have not been earthworking dogs, or they have changed in size etc to such an extreme that they can't do the job.
When I seek info about a breed (meaning Terriers for me) I don't read the standards in Kennel Club. I check out my very old books (first editions being in the 1800's or very early 1900's), I find the histories in those books to be a better referance than KC. Too many breed historys and standards have been too modified over the years. And of course I am always picking the brains of my working terriermen/women brains.
And most of the earthworking jrts that I know, are quiet laid back dogs, they have an 'off' switch. They are not hyper, yappy little things, although they can and do rise to the occassion. My dogs don't drive me nuts, except for one bitch that I purchased from a show kennel...............

Lynn

HoundedByHounds

10-02-2007, 09:17 PM

Sorry I don't agree,

That's the great thing...we don't have to agree. And believe it or not...the world will still turn.

adojrts

10-02-2007, 09:55 PM

That's the great thing...we don't have to agree. And believe it or not...the world will still turn.
Yep your right, it does turn, especially the stomach as one working (or was working) breed after another gets ruined by KC breeders or now what are they called Fanciers?????

summitview

10-06-2007, 10:58 AM

To the OP - I just wanted to add my vote for spaying your current dog and acquiring a breeding quality dog from an ethical breeder later down the road.

Xerxes

10-06-2007, 01:34 PM

Yep your right, it does turn, especially the stomach as one working (or was working) breed after another gets ruined by KC breeders or now what are they called Fanciers?????

I don't mean to be too argumentative here but isn't that a broad brush you're using? Not all hobby breeders or fanciers are breeding for form over function. There are those few that breed for function and form. Of course this form deviates from the current "popular" look of the particular breed, in most cases.

I can only speak of sighthounds-and even then they've dumbed down the afghan hound, fattened up the bloodhound, and are trying to oversize the pharaoh hound. But most will probably agree that the hound group probably has the most retention of function meeting form.

I do see your point in terriers-but given that true working terriers aren't as necessary in your everyday companion dog, it is certainly hard to evaluate whether a dog has "gumption" enough to go to ground, especially when said terrier breeder doesn't want to take the risk of allowing said animal to do so.

sheepjoke

10-06-2007, 03:42 PM

not a stretch that some terrier people are just as tenacious as their dogs, eh.
since most terriers today are pets and not 'working' dogs i think it is a good thing that they have a bit less prey drive. most people dont want a dog that is good on a farm because they dont have a farm. dogs evolve, times change and things are different now. dogs live in the house and are family members and do not have to have a job. there is no shame in a breeder breeding temperaments that are better suited as pets in my opinion. high drive dogs like malinois and border collies are not good pets for the most part if they are true 'working/herding' dogs. if you want to breed for working temperament, by all means do so, but sell your dogs as such, not as pets, and dont criticise those of us who breed for well tempered pets instead. can my dogs kill a rat, sure, will they? i dont know, but they have no need to do so here. they are good at chasing squirrels and i did find a piece of a squirrel tail one time in the yard. most dogs in rescue are ones that are not suitable to be pets due to temperament issues. i have no beef w/ those who want their dogs to do their intended purpose but that is not the only thing they can do.

sheepjoke