FrenchKissed - The Website.

[Herschel]

Look familiar?

http://www.tsuwa-snapdraggon.com/SnapDraggon/Page_7/IMAG000.JPG

Here is her website:
http://www.tsuwa-snapdraggon.com/

[Lizmo]

I'm confused, she's a breeder?

If so, none of her Golden's have any titles. =/

[PWCorgi]

Laurell Tsuwa Grand Theft Auto
Crash is our current stud dog.
If all goes well, Crash will be heading to Canada for his CH.

Breeding dog's before they're titled. Nice. :cool:

[Herschel]

If so, none of her Golden's have any titles. =/

Oh wait.
http://www.tsuwa-snapdraggon.com/Tsuwa/Page_2.html

You're right. Sorry. I was reading the names of their parents. Most of the parents are titled, but her dogs themselves aren't.

[Herschel]

The kennel:
http://www.tsuwa-snapdraggon.com/Tsuwa/Page_32.html

http://www.tsuwa-snapdraggon.com/Tsuwa/Page_32/IMAG000.JPG

[PWCorgi]

A lot of the dogs on there have titles.

ROFL! Yea...parents!
Though I think someone is playing dumb on that one
*cough* Herchel *cough*

[Lizmo]

Oh wait.
http://www.tsuwa-snapdraggon.com/Tsuwa/Page_2.html

You're right. Sorry. I was reading the names of their parents. Most of the parents are titled, but her dogs themselves aren't.

I was looking at the parent's name too, and was like "Wait, whats he talking about? All the dogs have titles, ect"

Yeah :rolleyes:

Oh, and 2 breeds?

BYB!

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Is this supposed to be making her look better or worse?

[Herschel]

I'm not taking a side. I was just posting it in case anyone was confused. I didn't want to read through 30 pages of bashing in the other thread.

[Momof2Pups]

http://www.tsuwa-snapdraggon.com/Tsuwa/Page_32/IMAG014.JPG

Lovely.

[Fran27]

No pedigree for the pups. Odd.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Lovely.

Thats what I thought too:rolleyes:

[shadowfacedanes]

Oh, and 2 breeds?



Don't forget the Great Pyrs too:
http://www.nextdaypets.com/directory/dogs/12a19712-37b1.aspx

She claims those are a friends...yet she's the one selling them.

Doesn't that make her a broker?

:popcorn:

[rosiesowner]

Ok, I have not replied to the other threads , but after seeing the site, I must say, this does not make her look better. I did not want to "pick a side", but this just did it for me.
Thanks for posting.

Stacy

[FrenchKissed]

Don't forget the Great Pyrs too:
http://www.nextdaypets.com/directory/dogs/12a19712-37b1.aspx

She claims those are a friends...yet she's the one selling them.

Doesn't that make her a broker?

:popcorn:


I would have to buy them first and then resell them for me to qualify as a broker. They never leave her home (until they are placed) and I never get any money. Sorry to disapoint.

[shadowfacedanes]

She can't post her own sale ads? Post her own phone number? Odd to me.

And honey, you disappointed me LOOOOOOOOONG ago.

[FrenchKissed]

She can't post her own sale ads? Post her own phone number? Odd to me.

And honey, you disappointed me LOOOOOOOOONG ago.


Well I find many things odd, but it doesn't change the fact that that is the way it is.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

You sure do have a way of running in circles.

May I ask WHY you post ads for her and get people to phone YOU?

[ACooper]

I'm not taking a side. I was just posting it in case anyone was confused. I didn't want to read through 30 pages of bashing in the other thread.

Her web link and adds on nextdaypets were already posted in the thread that is now locked.........this isn't new news.

[bubbatd]

Thanks Herchel !!! Pretty is ,, what pretty does.

[FrenchKissed]

You sure do have a way of running in circles.

May I ask WHY you post ads for her and get people to phone YOU?


Because when you create a profile they default to who has the account.

It's not that hard to give out an email or phone number you know.

[PWCorgi]

May I ask why you are *helping* her by posting on NextDayPets of all places?

[ToscasMom]

Don't forget the Great Pyrs too:
http://www.nextdaypets.com/directory/dogs/12a19712-37b1.aspx

She claims those are a friends...yet she's the one selling them.

Doesn't that make her a broker?
:popcorn:
No, it's kind of like if you go to a furniture website and they tell you that the chairs are going to be "Shipped directly from the manufacturer";)

[savethebulliedbreeds]

And why you couldn't make a new account for her, or have her do it herself?

[FrenchKissed]

May I ask why you are *helping* her by posting on NextDayPets of all places?


Where the ad is posted does not change the quality of the dog or the ethics of the breeder. Nextday pets has a high traffic site, it gets exposure. Nothing more, nothing less.

[FrenchKissed]

And why you couldn't make a new account for her, or have her do it herself?


Is it unethical to help someone now?

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Wow, can you never answer an honest question?

No it doesn't, just suspicious.

And yes, if you post on NextDayPets (Moderated Out). Just point and click and buy a dog. Thats always good.

If you are a good breeder you shouldn't need exposure. People will want your dogs, you shouldn't have to sell them on a site like that.

People selling to basically unknown people via mastercard or visa truly prove that they are in it for nothing more than the money!

[jess2416]

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, then it must be a duck...

nuff said...

[blue]

It makes (Moderated Out).

[shadowfacedanes]

It's not just nextdaypets...it's:

http://www.cyberpet.com/dogs/tsuwagoldens.html

http://www.merchantcircle.com/business/Tsuwa.706-864-6739

http://www.qualitydogs.com/138682/JPCH/memberprofile.html

http://www.dogpage.us/tsuwa/

http://www.versatiledogs.com/kennels/golden4.html

http://www.terrificpets.com/dog_breeders/viewad.asp?adid=5826

http://puppydogweb.com/puppies/index.php?a=14&b=366

http://www.puppy-central.com/japanese-chin-puppy/puppy-breeder-directory.html

http://ga.allpages.com/dahlonega/agriculture/animals/

Tyloon.com (direct link not provided since it shows driving directions to her home....)

I'm not saying anything further aside from what I said before....If you're producing quality, people will come to you. No need to advertise on every square inch of cyberspace. That's desperation, not the mark of a good breeder.

[FrenchKissed]

Wow, can you never answer an honest question?
No it doesn't, just suspicious.
And yes, if you post on NextDayPets you ARE unethical. Just point and click and buy a dog. Thats always good.
If you are a good breeder you shouldn't need exposure. People will want your dogs, you shouldn't have to sell them on a site like that.
People selling to basically unknown people via mastercard or visa truly prove that they are in it for nothing more than the money!


I have answered every question you have asked (if I have seen it).

[shadowfacedanes]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r43/KSD75/avatars/19980104idiot.gif

[FrenchKissed]

I'm not saying anything further aside from what I said before....If you're producing quality, people will come to you. No need to advertise on every square inch of cyberspace. That's desperation, not the mark of a good breeder.


Yup and lots of those sites I didn't even have to ask to be listed. They simply spider you and go on.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Yeeeeahhhh

[Fran27]

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Momof2Pups]

Why are hardly any of your breeding goldens titled at all?

[FrenchKissed]

Why are hardly any of your breeding goldens titled at all?


Because the cost of showing a golden to a CH title on average is about $15,000. The hunt test titles are not cheap either.....but at least those are based on the merits of the dog.

[bubbatd]

And you faulted me ??? A meager " BYB" who only had the best interest of the breed in mind and did all the testings ? Come on !! You make more in one year than I did through 30 years of breeding !

[bubbatd]

Agree FK ..... go into porn sites and you will spider on too !

[FrenchKissed]

And you faulted me ??? A meager " BYB" who only had the best interest of the breed in mind and did all the testings ? Come on !! You make more in one year than I did through 30 years of breeding !


I never faulted you. I pointed out how your choices could and would be veiwed by some others. I told you many times I did not agree.
As for not doing clearances you are again mistaken.

[FrenchKissed]

Agree FK ..... go into porn sites and you will spider on too !


Sorry I have no need for porn, I have a husband.

[blue]

Yup and lots of those sites I didn't even have to ask to be listed. They simply spider you and go on.

(Moderated Out)

http://www.cyberpet.com/advertising/index.html

http://www.merchantcircle.com/signup?utm_medium=business&utm_source=menu&business=Tsuwa.706-864-6739

http://www.qualitydogs.com/memberapp1.asp

This one is free but not a spider.
http://www.versatiledogs.com/contactus.html#kennel

Not giving this one my email to see if its legit or not, and Im to lazy to create a new email to do so.
https://www.terrificpets.com/secure/new-user.asp

http://puppydogweb.com/advertis.htm

http://www.puppy-central.com/advertising/

[FrenchKissed]

http://www.merchantcircle.com/signup?utm_medium=business&utm_source=menu&business=Tsuwa.706-864-6739][/quote]


Never even heard of these folks. I will have to write them and thank them for the free ad.

[ToscasMom]

This is kind of like if I were to go off and breed Tosca. She's never done a thing other than be a great companion, but her parentage is CH and her five generation history shows CHs. These breeding dogs are the kinds of dogs my breeder would demand a spay/neuter contract for, unless she was planning an agreement to show/prove the dog.

[Jules]

It just saddens me so much when people who are part of the problem justify their actions with a full blown good conscience.

I really wish that people would see the bigger picture.

[SummerRiot]

I think this has gone along enough.. how has a Mod not closed this??

[Herschel]

This is kind of like if I were to go off and breed Tosca. She's never done a thing other than be a great companion, but her parentage is CH and her five generation history shows CHs. These breeding dogs are the kinds of dogs my breeder would demand a spay/neuter contract for, unless she was planning an agreement to show/prove the dog.

There's your problem. You shouldn't have signed that spay/neuter contract! Now how are you going to make any money?

[shadowfacedanes]

This is kind of like if I were to go off and breed Tosca. She's never done a thing other than be a great companion, but her parentage is CH and her five generation history shows CHs. These breeding dogs are the kinds of dogs my breeder would demand a spay/neuter contract for, unless she was planning an agreement to show/prove the dog.


Yep, but showing is expensive. Why invest the money to PROVE your breeding stock when you can just peddle pups and make money...and hope no one ever catches onto your little scheme....

I mean, Duh, TM. Really, I thought you'd know better.

Now get out there and get you a puppy peddlin' business. It's all the rage.

Alls you have to do is go an get you one of them there dogs with a Ch title somewhere in it's pedigree so you can advertise Champion Bloodlines.

Then you say you are "working on" finishing the dog, knowing you never intend to or even want to. But it makes a good selling point.

Then you find another unethical breeder who actually has a point or two on her bitch so you can say "Dam is pointed"

Viola. You're in business. And you've almost passed yourself off as ethical to many unsuspecting folks.

[FrenchKissed]

Then you say you are "working on" finishing the dog, knowing you never intend to or even want to. But it makes a good selling point.



Titles don't just go on the front. They go on the end as well.

[blue]

Never even heard of these folks. I will have to write them and thank them for the free ad.

You have to sign up for the free advertizing, try again. الكذاب.

[ToscasMom]

Yep, but showing is expensive. Why invest the money to PROVE your breeding stock when you can just peddle pups and make money...and hope no one ever catches onto your little scheme....

I mean, Duh, TM. Really, I thought you'd know better.

Now get out there and get you a puppy peddlin' business. It's all the rage.

Alls you have to do is go an get you one of them there dogs with a Ch title somewhere in it's pedigree so you can advertise Champion Bloodlines.

Then you say you are "working on" finishing the dog, knowing you never intend to or even want to. But it makes a good selling point.

Then you find another unethical breeder who actually has a point or two on her bitch so you can say "Dam is pointed"

Viola. You're in business. And you've almost passed yourself off as ethical to many unsuspecting folks.

Well as we all know, Tosca is up to the task!:lol-sign:

[shadowfacedanes]

Titles don't just go on the front. They go on the end as well.

Oh yeah?

Wow, thanks for clarifying that.

I thought CGC, TT, TDI, and those other titles I've had on my dogs were just extra letters that the AKC gave me.

Gawd. :rolleyes:

[FrenchKissed]

You have to sign up for the free advertizing, try again. الكذاب.

Well considering I have never even seen the site before I must have done it in my sleep.

[Renee750il]

Tosca doesn't need points or Ch-es after her name. She's perfect, you know. ;)

[FrenchKissed]

Oh yeah?

Wow, thanks for clarifying that.

I thought CGC, TT, TDI, and those other titles I've had on my dogs were just extra letters that the AKC gave me.

Gawd. :rolleyes:



CGC, TT, TDI are not competative titles given by AKC.

[shadowfacedanes]

Tosca doesn't need points or Ch-es after her name. She's perfect, you know. ;)

'Cept for the lacking ovaries part. She coulda been a real money maker too.

[ToscasMom]

Dayum! Now she just sluts around for free! I can't catch a break!

[cockerchaos]

I think this has gone along enough.. how has a Mod not closed this??

I agree. This thread was started as no more than a personal attack on one person...which I believe is a violation of the site rules.

[shadowfacedanes]

CGC, TT, TDI are not competative titles given by AKC.

Dang, got me again. There's just no pulling one over on you is there.

:rolleyes:

I'd rather have titles that show I trained and interacted with my dogs and have a wonderful bond with them than any title you have managed to pay someone to slap on your dogs' names.

[ACooper]

Tosca doesn't need points or Ch-es after her name. She's perfect, you know. ;)

But lest we forget all her OTHER letters that are WAAAAAAAY better than CH??

Hmmmmmmmm, I can't remember all of them, refresh my memory here TM!

[bubbatd]

It's not mine to close .... I do think it will open many lurker's eyes as to what is out beyond " Good " breeding . To me one pup not bought from such sites help bring them down . Sadly , that's just a drop in the bucket . My beloved Golden breed has been ruined by such sites . Once popular the mills and BYBS took over . Today I see too many Goldens on Chaz that are hyper etc..... why ?? Poor breeding . My grand dog Golden Seger is the true Golden of yesterday . Sure 6 months of waiting , but well woth it !

[Psyfalcon]

Now, while I wouldn't count versatiledogs in the same breath as the other ones (its more of a breeder listing than a market- thats how a lot of hunting dogs are advertised since they likely wont be winning Westminster ;)) I'm surprised you got an add up there since yours do not appear to be working dogs.

So, not only are you peddling puppies, you are deceiving buyers? The bane of the hunting dog world, sure, they'll hunt!

[ToscasMom]

Tosca has letters too!

PC - Perfect Collie
EA1, EA2, EA3- Eater of anything
CCW - Companion to Crazy Woman
KHT - Kid Herding Tested
CW-Cat Whipped
CNC-1, CNC-2,CNC-3- Chewbacca Noise Competition
CEX-Couch Eater Excellent
MX - Moaner Excellent
FJA - Fence Jumper Advanced
AFC-Advanced Floor Cleaner
SB-Serious Barker
FB3 - Foot Biter Advanced
SC- Squirrel Chaser
CE3 - Couch Eater Advanced
MDX - Major Diva Excellent
BDB - Best Of Breed, Diva Category
FJ X-Fence Jumper Excellent
PC - Perfect Collie (worth mentioning twice)
BFK Big Face Kisser
BWX -Butt Wagger Excellent
CSX - Counter Surfer Extraordinaire
DCX - Duckie Chewer Excellent
MTS - Midnight Toy Squeaker
GFIY - Go Fetch It Yourself
IDDI - I Didn't Do It
IWFF - I work for food
TGAN - Terribly Good at Nothing
TSIM - That seat is Mine
TTIM - That Toy is Mine
UNCDQ - Under Cover Dog, Quilt Category

[blue]

Well considering I have never even seen the site before I must have done it in my sleep.

From your posts that that type of advertising is ethical, why should you be beleived?

In order to advertise on that site you have to join, maybe you husband thought you were slacking.

[FrenchKissed]

So, not only are you peddling puppies, you are deceiving buyers? The bane of the hunting dog world, sure, they'll hunt!


And yes. They do hunt.

[FrenchKissed]

From your posts that that type of advertising is ethical, why should you be beleived?

In order to advertise on that site you have to join, maybe you husband thought you were slacking.


Yes. I do think advertising is ethical. It makes no sense for it not to be.

[blue]

I agree. This thread was started as no more than a personal attack on one person...which I believe is a violation of the site rules.

No this thread was started as an informational post for those that have not seen Frenchkissed website, or her addvertising. At least thats how I see it.

If I missed a post you can PM it to me.

[blue]

Yes. I do think advertising is ethical. It makes no sense for it not to be.

Spoken like a true car salesman.

[PoodleMommy]

No this thread was started as an informational post for those that have not seen Frenchkissed website, or her addvertising. At least thats how I see it.

If I missed a post you can PM it to me.

You cant be that naive.

I havent got involved in any of these threads and personally have more important things to do that concern myself with whether or not this poster is a good breeder or not... but the fact that the mods let one thread go over 60 pages and another couple of threads have allowed to be started on this topic is ridiculous.

I guess its whatever makes them happy at the time:rolleyes:

[ACooper]

Tosca has letters too!

PC - Perfect Collie
EA1, EA2, EA3- Eater of anything
CCW - Companion to Crazy Woman
KHT - Kid Herding Tested
CW-Cat Whipped
CNC-1, CNC-2,CNC-3- Chewbacca Noise Competition
CEX-Couch Eater Excellent
MX - Moaner Excellent
FJA - Fence Jumper Advanced
AFC-Advanced Floor Cleaner
SB-Serious Barker
FB3 - Foot Biter Advanced
SC- Squirrel Chaser
CE3 - Couch Eater Advanced
MDX - Major Diva Excellent
BDB - Best Of Breed, Diva Category
FJ X-Fence Jumper Excellent
PC - Perfect Collie (worth mentioning twice)
BFK Big Face Kisser
BWX -Butt Wagger Excellent
CSX - Counter Surfer Extraordinaire
DCX - Duckie Chewer Excellent
MTS - Midnight Toy Squeaker
GFIY - Go Fetch It Yourself
IDDI - I Didn't Do It
IWFF - I work for food
TGAN - Terribly Good at Nothing
TSIM - That seat is Mine
TTIM - That Toy is Mine
UNCDQ - Under Cover Dog, Quilt Category

See? Who the heck needs the AKC? Hehehehehhe........I would like to see all those letters before and after her name on some type of certificate...........:lol-sign:

[ToscasMom]

See? Who the heck needs the AKC? Hehehehehhe........I would like to see all those letters before and after her name on some type of certificate...........:lol-sign:

From your lips to the ears of somebody who knows how to do it.

[ACooper]

From your lips to the ears of somebody who knows how to do it.

Well if it wasn't so late I would attempt it.........perhaps tomorrow if someone else hasn't already taken care of it :D

[jess2416]

The reason its not closed is because some people are having too much fun with it, while its making other people sick...

*carry on*

[~Jessie~]

Wow, Tosca has so many titles! Those are way better than any AKC titles... you forgot "DKG", though... Derty Kolly Dogg.

[PoodleMommy]

The reason its not closed is because some people are having too much fun with it, while its making other people sick...

*carry on*

Its a matter of mods picking and choosing who they "reprimand" and who they tolerate certain behaviors from.

[blue]

You cant be that naive.

I havent got involved in any of these threads and personally have more important things to do that concern myself with whether or not this poster is a good breeder or not... but the fact that the mods let one thread go over 60 pages and another couple of threads have allowed to be started on this topic is ridiculous.

I guess its whatever makes them happy at the time:rolleyes:


I pay attention to the way people post. Herschel meant no malice in starting this thread.

[ToscasMom]

Wow, Tosca has so many titles! Those are way better than any AKC titles... you forgot "DKG", though... Derty Kolly Dogg.
Harumph!™©®

[PoodleMommy]

I pay attention to the way people post. Herschel meant no malice in starting this thread.

A 5 year old could have figured out where this thread would go.

[ACooper]

Its a matter of mods picking and choosing who they "reprimand" and who they tolerate certain behaviors from.

That wasn't a very kind thing to say Poodle :(

[PoodleMommy]

That wasn't a very kind thing to say Poodle :(

It may not be nice but its true...

im happy to PM proof to anyone who feels they need it.

[blue]

A 5 year old could have figured out where this thread would go.

The 5 year olds are steering this thread, not Herschel.

[blue]

It may not be nice but its true...

im happy to PM proof to anyone who feels they need it.

PM away.

[PoodleMommy]

The 5 year olds are steering this thread, not Herschel.

point taken.

And I did not mean anything against Herschel...

just pointing out the fact that all this should have been ended 60 pages ago.

[blue]

Lets have that Pm then.

[PoodleMommy]

Lets have that Pm then.

sorry took me a minute to figure out forwarding... PM sent

[Herschel]

I agree. This thread was started as no more than a personal attack on one person...which I believe is a violation of the site rules.

You cant be that naive.

I havent got involved in any of these threads and personally have more important things to do that concern myself with whether or not this poster is a good breeder or not... but the fact that the mods let one thread go over 60 pages and another couple of threads have allowed to be started on this topic is ridiculous.

I guess its whatever makes them happy at the time:rolleyes:

I couldn't stand to read the other thread because it was too confounded by so many irrational, emotional posts. I honestly wasn't sure if FrenchKissed was running a respectable breeding program so I looked up the website. I formed my own decision after seeing it.

In fact, for a while, I thought FrenchKissed was the same as many people in the hunting community. Dogs live outside in kennels, have a purpose, and are working tools more than they are members of the family. She also showed some level of knowledge about a couple of breeds so I was even more intrigued. After I found the website, I thought it might be helpful to some other people so I posted it here. Read the original post.

Go make assumptions about someone else, same goes for you PoodleMommy. http://emoticons4u.com/mad/boese036.gif

Edit:

I have more to say. I hate having to justify threads like this. If I didn't state a purpose for starting the thread, then get off my back. You don't know me and you don't know my intentions.

By the way, so what if the Mods favor certain people? There are several people on this board (I'm not one of them) that a lot of us would consider invaluable. If they want get emotional once in a while it seems absolutely reasonable that a Mod would be willing to overlook it. Why should a longtime, constructive member be thrown in the same boat as someone that just joined? It may not be fair, but it is just.
http://emoticons4u.com/mad/1106.gif

[cockerchaos]

No this thread was started as an informational post for those that have not seen Frenchkissed website, or her addvertising. At least thats how I see it.

If I missed a post you can PM it to me.

No need to PM.
The forum rules are publicly posted...and number one is:

Chazhound Forum Participation Guildlines:

1. Please be respectful to other members and moderators. You don’t have to like or agree with everyone, but please state your thoughts in a respectful manner. Absolutely no name calling. No personal attacks.


FK's website was already public knowledge from previous threads (discussed as well) and also publicly available for those wishing to go view it. I don't see much in the way of being respectful to her as a member when a topic is started with her as the subject and then being called a puppy pimper, puppy peddler, and puppy miller (personal attacks and name calling).
Clear enough for you now?

[PoodleMommy]

No need to PM.
The forum rules are publicly posted...and number one is:

Chazhound Forum Participation Guildlines:

1. Please be respectful to other members and moderators. You don’t have to like or agree with everyone, but please state your thoughts in a respectful manner. Absolutely no name calling. No personal attacks.


FK's website was already public knowledge from previous threads (discussed as well) and also publicly available for those wishing to go view it. I don't see much in the way of being respectful to her as a member when a topic is started with her as the subject and then being called a puppy pimper, puppy peddler, and puppy miller (personal attacks and name calling).
Clear enough for you now?


You seem to be new here and you have ALOT to learn.

The rules only apply to those the mods choose to apply them to.

:popcorn:

[blue]

Ive been called a racist, a bigot, and a Ahole recently by a fellow mod on this forum. FK fights for the rights of BYBs comercial breeders and unethical breeders, so how is using the term puppy peddler an attack?

[Herschel]

No need to PM.
The forum rules are publicly posted...and number one is:

Chazhound Forum Participation Guildlines:

1. Please be respectful to other members and moderators. You don’t have to like or agree with everyone, but please state your thoughts in a respectful manner. Absolutely no name calling. No personal attacks.


FK's website was already public knowledge from previous threads (discussed as well) and also publicly available for those wishing to go view it. I don't see much in the way of being respectful to her as a member when a topic is started with her as the subject and then being called a puppy pimper, puppy peddler, and puppy miller (personal attacks and name calling).
Clear enough for you now?

Are you saying that screen names should not be allowed in the titles of threads? That is your interpretation, not the rule. This thread was not started out of malice, or out of support for FrenchKissed. It was to visibly provide information that some people, like myself, may not have seen.

Puppy - 1 : a young domestic dog; specifically : one less than a year old
Peddle - 1 : to sell or offer for sale from place to place

Does she sell puppies in more than one place? Puppy peddler. Not an insult, an accurate label. http://emoticons4u.com/violent/sterb003.gif

[cockerchaos]

Ive been called a racist, a bigot, and a Ahole recently by a fellow mod on this forum. FK fights for the rights of BYBs comercial breeders and unethical breeders, so how is using the term puppy peddler an attack?

Because it is a derogatory title pinned to someone for standing up for the legal rights of others and not for something she may or may not personally do herself.

[ACooper]

Honestly people........this thread has gone WAY beyond any type of usefullness (if there ever was any)

Lets all give it a rest for awhile, shall we?

[PoodleMommy]

Honestly people........this thread has gone WAY beyond any type of usefullness (if there ever was any)

Lets all give it a rest for awhile, shall we?

lets see a mod be useful and lock it.

[blue]

Because it is a derogatory title pinned to someone for standing up for the legal rights of others and not for something she may or may not personally do herself.

Legal and ethical are not the same thing.

[cockerchaos]

Are you saying that screen names should not be allowed in the titles of threads? That is your interpretation, not the rule. This thread was not started out of malice, or out of support for FrenchKissed. It was to visibly provide information that some people, like myself, may not have seen.

Puppy - 1 : a young domestic dog; specifically : one less than a year old
Peddle - 1 : to sell or offer for sale from place to place

Does she sell puppies in more than one place? Puppy peddler. Not an insult, an accurate label. http://emoticons4u.com/violent/sterb003.gif

It may not have been (or may have if one were to follow the trend of assumption on this board) started in malice...but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where it would ultimately go.

[blue]

lets see a mod be useful and lock it.

Yes ma'am, we are here to do your bidding.

[PoodleMommy]

Yes ma'am, we are here to do your bidding.

when i feel like getting banned ill tell you what the mods are here to do.

[ACooper]

I don't want to lock it.........I would rather see people who don't want to be here go away from the thread and leave it alone.

Hey, how about we all go over to the penis hair thread and see if we can gain some info?? Probably more informative right now than this thread! LOL

[cockerchaos]

Legal and ethical are not the same thing.


Ethics are like opinions are like as......well, you get the picture.
So, there are 2 sets of forum rules somewhere...one based on ethics and one based on legal rights?
I thought the same forum rules applied to everyone regardless of what thier beliefs and opinions were....stupid me.

[yoko]

i really feel for the horses :( they're the ones really hurt

[Psyfalcon]

Lots of things are legal but not ethical.

Simply stated, I would not buy a puppy from someone like this. The websites, the multiple breeds, lack of titles or shown hunting ability (sorry, the one picture of a Golden holding a duck does not cut it).
To be fair though, it appears there are health tests done. This is good, but not enough in my book.

I think once a person advertises a litter or kennel, and posts online about it, their breeding practices ARE fair game. People here can be harsh with people who do not do exactly what they think is best, but this is not the case here. We have a person defending breeding practices that are looked down upon by the vast majority of the board members, and can not produce an effective debate. That person then generally gets run over by the board ;)

[blue]

Ethics are like opinions are like as......well, you get the picture.
So, there are 2 sets of forum rules somewhere...one based on ethics and one based on legal rights?
I thought the same forum rules applied to everyone regardless of what thier beliefs and opinions were....stupid me.

Yes stoopid yuo. Ethics and opinions are not the same thing.

[Aussie Red]

______________________/\/\/\/\/\/\/\_________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________________ And Don't Even Bother To Restart It. I Am So Damned Sick Of Fighting Puppy Millers Who Think They Are Doing The Right Thing. Ask Me How My Day Was Yesterday, You Should Have Been There !!!!

[ACooper]

Hey..........I thought everyone went over to the penis hair forum?? I have been waiting there for ya'll for like 15 minutes!!

Geeeeeeeeeeesh!

[PoodleMommy]

Hey..........I thought everyone went over to the penis hair forum?? I have been waiting there for ya'll for like 15 minutes!!

Geeeeeeeeeeesh!

I am having much more fun here...

allowing the mods to prove how hypocritical they are.

:popcorn:

[MafiaPrincess]

JH IS an AKC hunt title. 2 dogs have it. That should be proof of dogs hunting no?

[Georgygirl]

Hey..........I thought everyone went over to the penis hair forum?? I have been waiting there for ya'll for like 15 minutes!!

Geeeeeeeeeeesh!

Why are ya gonna post some more Orson porn?:D ;) Honestly though......it's making Joey feel a little inadequate....:(

[yoko]

i went there but it was empty :(

[Georgygirl]

I am having much more fun here...

allowing the mods to prove how hypocritical they are.

:popcorn:

and furthering the thread you dispise so much.........good for you!

[ACooper]

I am having much more fun here...

allowing the mods to prove how hypocritical they are.

:popcorn:

I for one AM NOT hypocritical...........I must follow the rules as well poodle. If this thread is bothering you WHY are you still here??

I asked that the people who don't want to see it go away and leave it.........

*sigh*

[PoodleMommy]

are you a mod Cooper?

If so, I wasnt aware of it... but maybe you need to check with your fellow mods on the whole hypocritical thing.

[ACooper]

Why are ya gonna post some more Orson porn?:D ;) Honestly though......it's making Joey feel a little inadequate....:(

Hhahahahhahahahaha.......poor Joey! Tell him size doesn't matter! :lol-sign:

[jess2416]

Because this thread is like a 3 ring circus... and the penis hair thread is like the park...

who wants to go to the park when there is a circus in town..

So of course people arent going to leave...this thread

[ACooper]

are you a mod Cooper?

If so, I wasnt aware of it... but maybe you need to check with your fellow mods on the whole hypocritical thing.

Yes I am..........haven't been one for long and I am still trying to learn the ropes.

Bare with me, LOL

[Buddy'sParents]

I am having much more fun here...

allowing the mods to prove how hypocritical they are.

:popcorn:

Too funny.

If you are so unhappy here, surely there is a forum somewhere that will suit your needs.

You could always be the bigger person and just leave.

But wait, let's smear chazhound and the moderators, first.

Nicely done.

[blue]

are you a mod Cooper?

If so, I wasnt aware of it... but maybe you need to check with your fellow mods on the whole hypocritical thing.

She is a new recruit and we dont publicly announce new mods.

Bahamamutt recieved the same PM you did, thats hypocrytical?

[PoodleMommy]

Yes I am..........haven't been one for long and I am still trying to learn the ropes.

Bare with me, LOL

Ok... well my comments had not been directed towards you... although I am sure it seemed that way since you were posting on the thread... I was honestly not aware of the fact that you were a mod... good luck with your new position.

Elissa

[Laurelin]

****, I missed all the excitement again! ;)

[Buddy'sParents]

One more thing- don't assume that you (generalized you for those that are reading) know all that goes on behind the scenes- for any thread of matter.

More PM's are sent to members than public slaps on the wrist.

Perhaps it would make some feel better if there were public tar and featherings, lol, but we don't care to oblige- to suit anyone's wants. ;)

[PoodleMommy]

Too funny.

If you are so unhappy here, surely there is a forum somewhere that will suit your needs.

You could always be the bigger person and just leave.

But wait, let's smear chazhound and the moderators, first.

Nicely done.

I did find another board that I love, thank you.

[Georgygirl]

Hhahahahhahahahaha.......poor Joey! Tell him size doesn't matter! :lol-sign:

I'll try...maybe a nice pair of neuticles in his christmas stocking will brighten his holiday.:D

[cockerchaos]

Yes stoopid yuo. Ethics and opinions are not the same thing.

In a definative form of course not. :rolleyes:
In the context I was trying to convey, yes...ethics are an individual set values and morals that some may share or may not share with others and opinions are an individuals personal thoughts on something that others may or may not share.
In other words...everyone has them but they are not necessarily the same.

[PoodleMommy]

One more thing- don't assume that you (generalized you for those that are reading) know all that goes on behind the scenes- for any thread of matter.

More PM's are sent to members than public slaps on the wrist.

Perhaps it would make some feel better if there were public tar and featherings, lol, but we don't care to oblige- to suit anyone's wants. ;)

Oh Im SOO sure you sent any PM's to anyone who was posting on any of these threads. the mods let the last one go over 60 pages and dont tell me any "pets" got PM's.

[PoodleMommy]

She is a new recruit and we dont publicly announce new mods.

Bahamamutt recieved the same PM you did, thats hypocrytical?

whats hypocritical is me getting told to stop posting for standing up for myself and everyone else getting to go on and on as long as they feel like it.

[ACooper]

Ok... well my comments had not been directed towards you... although I am sure it seemed that way since you were posting on the thread... I was honestly not aware of the fact that you were a mod... good luck with your new position.

Elissa

Thank you poodle. I did think you meant me too but I should have realized that most people don't go look to see who the mods are, especially after they have been here awhile.

I hope the new forum you found is just going to be added to the list and you aren't leaving Chaz.........that would be a shame.

[Buddy'sParents]

Oh Im SOO sure you sent any PM's to anyone who was posting on any of these threads. the mods let the last one go over 60 pages and dont tell me any "pets" got PM's.

Heh. Since it's none of your business, I won't post them. But go ahead with the poor me act- if it makes you feel better. ;)

And, really, you're one of my favorite members. Are favorite members "pets"? Because, if so, well- you got one. Just because I don't agree with your personal vendettas doesn't mean I don't remember the who and what you were before your unhappiness here.

ETA:

I asked that you take your grievances to PM. Not to stop "standing up for yourself". I hope you're happier at this other forum you found. Because you're obviously not here. Good luck.

Enough is enough, now. Ciao.

[cockerchaos]

Bare with me, LOL

I, for one, ain't getting 'bare' with anyone here! :lol-sign:

[PoodleMommy]

Thank you poodle. I did think you meant me too but I should have realized that most people don't go look to see who the mods are, especially after they have been here awhile.

I hope the new forum you found is just going to be added to the list and you aren't leaving Chaz.........that would be a shame.

to be 100% honest... it will probably soon be the only board I post on. Its a much friendlier place.

I have only been back to Chaz in the last few weeks and the first day or two back I was already being attacked again... so I clearly remember now why I left the first time.

I only use Chaz to PM certain members who have remained normal.

Elissa

[blue]

I am having much more fun here...

allowing the mods to prove how hypocritical they are.

:popcorn:

So you are pushing the limits then? Push on then we will let you dig your own hole.

[Georgygirl]

I, for one, ain't getting 'bare' with anyone here! :lol-sign:

Spoilsport!! **puts away the mud wresting pit**

[blue]

I did find another board that I love, thank you.

1 Im sure bans and censors its users to your satisfaction. Bring out the dead!

[ACooper]

I, for one, ain't getting 'bare' with anyone here! :lol-sign:

FINALLY! I was just waiting for SOMEONE to mention that.....hehehehehehhe

[blue]

In a definative form of course not. :rolleyes:
In the context I was trying to convey, yes...ethics are an individual set values and morals that some may share or may not share with others and opinions are an individuals personal thoughts on something that others may or may not share.
In other words...everyone has them but they are not necessarily the same.

Next your going to tell me its moral for a teacher to bang a student.

[Doberluv]

I am having much more fun here...

allowing the mods to prove how hypocritical they are.

Hypocritical? Now, that's complimentary. Thank you very much.

to be 100% honest... it will probably soon be the only board I post on. Its a much friendlier place.

I have only been back to Chaz in the last few weeks and the first day or two back I was already being attacked again... so I clearly remember now why I left the first time.

I only use Chaz to PM certain members who have remained normal.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/Carriebrent/boohoo.gif

Weah, weah....Why are you still here then if you're so miserabe? Being attacked????? Isn't that a little melodramatic?

Hark! I think I hear your other forum beckoning you. Don't let the door slam you in the arse when you leave.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/Carriebrent/alienabduction.gif

[blue]

In a definative form of course not. :rolleyes:
In the context I was trying to convey, yes...ethics are an individual set values and morals that some may share or may not share with others and opinions are an individuals personal thoughts on something that others may or may not share.
In other words...everyone has them but they are not necessarily the same.

Be it IRA or the Proddies, bad ethics are bad ethics. Stalin had the same bad ethics as Hitler. Morales are subject, ethics are not.

[Laurelin]

First off, I love that Chaz isn't modded like most forums I'm on. It gets silly and EVERYTHING is censored.

Secondly, I think enough is enough and am really tired of discussing FrenchKissed's breeding practices...

So what about some fun threads, eh?

Just saying...

*runs and hides in a corner*

[goldiefur]

It's not mine to close .... I do think it will open many lurker's eyes as to what is out beyond " Good " breeding . To me one pup not bought from such sites help bring them down . Sadly , that's just a drop in the bucket . My beloved Golden breed has been ruined by such sites . Once popular the mills and BYBS took over . Today I see too many Goldens on Chaz that are hyper etc..... why ?? Poor breeding . My grand dog Golden Seger is the true Golden of yesterday . Sure 6 months of waiting , but well woth it !

Oh I saw the pictures of Seger:) :hail: He is an absolutely gorgeous dog!!! I'm in love with him! Seger is beautiful!!! We waited a year for Baxter it seems from my memory that we were on waiting lists for all of our Goldens. I'm not to sure of the whole story here but this Frenchkissed person seems to seriously be breeding for profit. How many dogs does she have breeding? How many different breeds? It sounds bad to me.

[blue]

The only mod that has no hypocriscy is Buckshot. He stands for nothing as he believes in nothing. Chaos theory is a fantastic subject.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

More PM's are sent to members than public slaps on the wrist.

Perhaps it would make some feel better if there were public tar and featherings, lol, but we don't care to oblige- to suit anyone's wants. ;)

Funny you mention that. I just got one!!! I am wondering if we have the 3 strikes rule here? Cause if we do then I still have two more strikes baby!

[cockerchaos]

Next your going to tell me its moral for a teacher to bang a student.


But of course, so long as both are of legal consenting age...doesn't hurt if teacher is hot as well ;)

[blue]

But of course, so long as both are of legal consenting age...doesn't hurt if teacher is hot as well ;)

How about if the age of consent is 16 and the adult is a cop?

[Doberluv]

That really hurts Poodlemommy. I thought you liked me. I enjoyed seeing your pictures and talking about Poodles. I had no idea you thought I was a hypocrit or those other things you said about the mods. This seems to have come out of the blue.

I know some of these mods pretty well and know them to have big hearts. So, sometimes we get a little passionate or heated about certain things, but that doesn't make us those horrible things you said. It is very hurtful. We don't get paid for this job and do the best we can. We can't spend all day long analyzing and weighing every little thing. Do you know how many members we have??????? We do the best we can.

I do sincerely hope you'll enjoy the other forum better. No sense hanging around here where you feel the way you do. It is run differently than most. The style of it here might not suit everyone. But everyone is free to choose what forum they want to go on.

As for the puppy mill concept. It is, IMO (and anyone who knows what's going on behind closed doors) a rotten way to treat man's best friend. Rotten!

[chazhound]

Please refrain from any personal attacks.
I Moderated Out any personal attacks I saw. Anything with any valid point I left. Let's discuss the issue of the many channels dogs are marketed, especially online.

Chazhound

[chazhound]

Keep it on topic please....
Personal notes should be PM'ed :)

Chazhound

[Psyfalcon]

JH IS an AKC hunt title. 2 dogs have it. That should be proof of dogs hunting no?

JH does not mean much, I'm sorry to say. It does show basic ability, but a rather poor dog can pass JH, it appears relatively common that show line Am. Cockers can title at JH, while I know of only one that managed Master Hunter. I wouldn't say its a valid test of breedability. Good, but still not good enough!

AKC Junior Hunting Test
The Junior Hunter Test requires two single marks on land and two single marks on water. A single mark means a single bird is thrown and the dog watches the bird fall. Upon command, dog should promptly retrieve and deliver the bird to the hand (i.e.. hold onto the bird so that the handler takes it directly from the dog's mouth).

The distance of the marks should not be more than 100 yards. Dogs should be steady, but may be brought to the line on leash. Dogs may be restrained gently with a slip cord, or held gently by the collar until sent to retrieve.

In order to be recorded as a Junior Hunter, a dog must have acquired qualifying scores in 4 Junior Hunting Tests. Upon completion of these requirements, an AKC Junior Hunter certificate will be issued to the owner, and the dog shall have the suffix JH appended to it name in all official AKC records.

Dogs that have passed one or more Master or Senior Hunting Tests are ineligible to enter a Junior Hunting Test. A dog which has earned it's JH title may continue to enter Junior Hunting Tests, but no further certificates will be issued.

Compare that with the MH title. (Its actually a test though, non-competitive unlike a field trial- which has its pros and cons)

A Master Hunting Test requirements include:

* land blinds
* water blinds
* multiple marks on land (usually triples or quads)
* multiple marks on water (usually triples or quads)
* multiple marks on both land and water
* a walk-up
* diversion shots and/or marks
* an honor

These dogs are representing a truly complete hunting dog. They shall be steady on the line and no collar or leads can be used. The test usually incorporates a shot flyer in several of the marks. In addition, the ground conditions will generally be those matching some of the harshest conditions and distances that may be found in hunting situations (e.g.. chest deep mud, grass and weeds over their head, etc).

In order to be recorded as a Master Hunter, a dog must have acquired qualifying scores in 6 Master Hunting Tests (a SH title counts as 1 qualifying score in a Master Hunting Test). Upon completion of these requirements, an AKC Master Hunter certificate will be issued to the owner, and the dog shall have the suffix MH appended to it name in all official AKC records.

A dog which has earned it's MH title may continue to enter Master Hunting Tests, but no further certificates will be issued. However, running in additional Master tests can qualify the dog for entry in for Master National Test. The Master National is held once a year and dogs can qualify to enter by passing 4 Master tests during the previous year. The 1994 Master National was held in Minden, Nevada with 223 qualified dogs running and 34 dogs passing after running 6 series of tests. The AKC does not yet have designation on a dogs title to show that it has passed a Master National test.

[cockerchaos]

How about if the age of consent is 16 and the adult is a cop?

Aaaaw...is that a proposition?

Seriously, for me, that would be a negative. For anyone else it would really depend on a particular states' Training and Standards protocol, which all Officers must follow when they take the Oath, regardless of what the law is.

[cockerchaos]

Keep it on topic please....
Personal notes should be PM'ed :)

Chazhound

My oppologies...I did not see this before my previous post.

[smkie]

JH does not mean much, I'm sorry to say. It does show basic ability, but a rather poor dog can pass JH, it appears relatively common that show line Am. Cockers can title at JH, while I know of only one that managed Master Hunter. I wouldn't say its a valid test of breedability. Good, but still not good enough!



Compare that with the MH title. (Its actually a test though, non-competitive unlike a field trial- which has its pros and cons)

we did field trials..I believe for "bettering the breed" that is the ultimate. Sound body, desire and strength backed up with great intelligence, that should be the goal of every breeder. To test the intelligence and phsyical ability is the whole point. With the litter to be comes a whole slew of attributes to be considering. I remember logs of field trial notes, news letters, pedigrees, notes of the dog in the field spread across the table, cross referenced and discussed and debated. I don't pretend to understand the show end of this, but neither is done on a mass scale. it can't be unless your independently weathly and can hire a team. The litter is what finances the cost of showing and supports the care of the sire and or dam. I don't know one breeder that can do what it takes to produce a champion and pay for their own keep as well. THe cost of producing a champion is staggering.

[Psyfalcon]

I'm not a particular fan of field trials, I think they reward flashier dogs over some others that may be more deserving. This is coming from an east coast mindset though, close, close in grouse or stocked pheasant.

Field Trials are just too one breed dominated for me, Pointers, English Springers and Labs. They tend to be the fastest, most ranging and stylish dogs. The average field trial pointer from the midwest would be 3 towns over on the east coast ;)

If you want the Pointer to be the wide ranging, fast dog, its great. Its not great if you like the tougher, slower dogs, Clumbers, water spaniels and Chessies though. Those breeds would have to change a great deal to regularly compete on the field trial circuit.

An AWS with a MH for me please!

[smkie]

I remember the pointers coming across the field where we would have a water test set up..looked so exciting! Still the line on the paper is the straightest from the judge to the fall and back, no matter what breed does it. That was the way it was when i was there. Speed wasn't an issue, finding the fall was. But my point was you tested your dog spring and fall, trained every day in between, had road cost, entry fee, and on that basis when the litter did come, from a dog that had proved itself, you certainly didn't throw them in a pen on the side of the road and sell to people that see a sign saying puppies, or sell on line, sight on seen. Mass producing comes with mass problems. puppies grow fast, and have to be moved quickly. How many litters does a dog have in their lifetime to provide a living for one person? How many females does it take to keep the bills paid? And how in the world to you manage to insure vet care for all of them? And how do you manage to keep the stress of this type of breeding from affecting the longterm health of both your breeding stock and the puppies that will go out into the world and interact with the rest of their specie. Genetically are they weaker? Are they more predisposed to illness because of their housing? We won't even go into the moral issue of making a dog breed over and over again. No dog should have to go through that.

[noludoru]

Yes I am..........haven't been one for long and I am still trying to learn the ropes.

Bare with me, LOL

Aww Coop CONGRATS I didn't know! :D

[shadowfacedanes]

whats hypocritical is me getting told to stop posting for standing up for myself and everyone else getting to go on and on as long as they feel like it.

No, what's hypocritical is you going on about how awful the mods are and calling them out on their so called misbehaviors and practices and favoritisms.

Isn't that the same thing we've all done with Frenchkissed? Called her out on her practices?

So what makes you any better?

We're being mean and rude and attacking, but you're doing someone a service?

And just curious, since you made your little pet comment.....Am I classified as a pet?

(Fingers crossed, I've always wanted to be someone's pet!!) :rolleyes:

[Angel Chicken]

to be 100% honest... it will probably soon be the only board I post on. Its a much friendlier place.

I have only been back to Chaz in the last few weeks and the first day or two back I was already being attacked again... so I clearly remember now why I left the first time.

I only use Chaz to PM certain members who have remained normal.

Elissa

Hope your happy there!

Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya, baby!

[Jules]

Honestly people........this thread has gone WAY beyond any type of usefullness (if there ever was any)

Lets all give it a rest for awhile, shall we?

lets see a mod be useful and lock it.

That was page ten. And this thing is still open WHY?

[Dizzy]

I agree. This thread was started as no more than a personal attack on one person...which I believe is a violation of the site rules.

Absolutely.

Seriously, this is playground tactics.

I hope everyone feels very smug.

[smkie]

the request has been made numerous times to not make personal attacks. The topic was valid, and the subject matter important. If you have a problem with someone please pm or notify a mod, do not take away from the topic at hand by diverting personal feelings in a public manner. Mass breeding should be a concern to everyone. IF someone wants to debate the ethics of this practice we should read the reasoning behind it. We should be able to ask questions. Personal insults only detract from that.
People who participate in this practice have just as much a right do state their reasons why they believe it is "ethical" as we have to disagree. Questioning brings forth facts from both sides so we can make a more educated decision on where we stand on this issue. Please stay to the topic.

[IliamnasQuest]

Why lock a thread when there are posts that provide learning experiences? People are quick to want something locked when it isn't going their way, I've noticed.

On the subject of titles:

Because the cost of showing a golden to a CH title on average is about $15,000. The hunt test titles are not cheap either.....but at least those are based on the merits of the dog.

I seem to remember that the golden in question was going to Canada for his championship points. A title in Canada is easier to obtain than an AKC title (which explains why a dog of a popular breed - a breed that easily makes majors in the U.S. - is going to Canada instead). You need ten points, and a major there is any win of 2 or more points.

There are clubs in Canada who do four-six conformation shows in ONE weekend. A quality dog with just a bit of competition can earn a title in one weekend. One of the gals I train with here took her golden male to a set of Canadian shows the same weekend that I went. There were six conformation shows and four obedience trials in the three day weekend. She earned a championship on her dog and I earned a CD on mine in that one weekend.

Cost? Well, it costs me more than it did her because I slept in a motel part of the time. She camped in her truck. Gas, entries, motel, food - total was probably $1000 for me, less for her.

So I'm not quite sure why anyone would need to spend $15,000 to obtain a title on a dog unless the dog just isn't that good of a quality .. and then should they really be breeding it? Heck, I've put two titles on my chow this year, have one more leg toward her next title that I'd hope to get next weekend, PLUS I put a last title on my shepherd - and all four titles this year probably cost me under $2000 (even though they were all out of town). Now, if I counted in my TIME .. *L* .. but I have the time to devote to training because I only have five dogs and can spend time with each of them daily.

So I never believe the whole "it costs too much to get titles" excuse any more than I accept that excuse for health certifications.

If you're going to breed, you better plan on doing it right or people WILL question you - and rightfully so! If I choose to breed Khana, I WANT people to question me. I want them to expect proof of her quality. I want them to understand my reasons for breeding. It's my responsibility, and I won't be evasive either. The DOGS deserve breeders who are honest and open and who do what is RIGHT and not just what's LEGAL.

JMHO.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[PoodleMommy]

Why lock a thread when there are posts that provide learning experiences? People are quick to want something locked when it isn't going their way, I've noticed.



Melanie,

Go through the entire thread... you are one of only a handful of people who had anything intelligent and useful to say or add to the conversation. Most everyone else was personally attacking or having "fun" at the expense of French Kissed.

I was one of the first people to say this thread should be locked and I had not posted on here at all yet... or in any other thread relating to this topic for that matter. I just saw what was being done to FrenchKissed and did not feel it was fair.

No one needs to agree with anything she says... but there is no need to respond if they dont have something useful to add that could possibly make her think about her actions in the future. If everyone's posts had been like yours (and a few others) the thread never would have taken the turn that it did and I for one never would have reccomended it be locked.

Elissa

[HoundedByHounds]

Is "mass breeding" the topic? What is the topic? Hard to tell...are we "grading kennels" or "grading breeding practices"?.

Are we speaking specifically ONLY of this one person? If so...why? Why are we not discussing this in general, rather than picking apart one person for no other reason than they are not perhaps "popular"?

From what I have experienced actually being a person who breeds and shows, most Toy people I know breed more than 2 litters per annum as litter sizes are small. Most keep more than 4-5 dogs because they are small and tend to live together okay in groups.

Goldens...it takes FOUR bitches to make ONE point in my area...and for a 3pts major it takes...TWENTY TWO DOGS and TWENTY FOUR bitches to make it. Often, bitches and quite a few dogs of this breed are bred without a Conf Ch because it takes an immense amount of work and time to get one, it may never come if you run into politics or are not in a position to hire a big gun! It also may in fact never come if in your area there aren't enough dogs or bitches showing to make your major. You CANNOT finish a dog's Ch without two majors...sheesh.

What else comprises the topic here? Advertising? Oh I covered that with the snippet I posted elsewhere.

Having a kennel set up? oH YES...that's horrid too!...lol. Ya know what they call people who have intact dogs running around in their homes in numbers over what 3-4? with no means to separate them and prevent unwanted litters? or keep puppies safe from the older dogs? Or keep older fragile dogs safe from rambunctiuos puppies? Or to keep resident dogs safe from disease brought in by outside dogs or fosters? Hoarders...yes, far preferable to a nice clean roomy kennel set up used as secondary housing.

Did I miss anything comprising the "topic" we're now...after how pages...supposed to stick to? Talk about shutting the barn door after the horses are already out.

[Laurelin]

Goldens...it takes FOUR bitches to make ONE point in my area...and for a 3pts major it takes...TWENTY TWO DOGS and TWENTY FOUR bitches to make it. Often, bitches and quite a few dogs of this breed are bred without a Conf Ch because it takes an immense amount of work and time to get one, it may never come if you run into politics or are not in a position to hire a big gun! It also may in fact never come if in your area there aren't enough dogs or bitches showing to make your major. You CANNOT finish a dog's Ch without two majors...sheesh.


In my area for papillons it's the same way. Beau had to beat 50+ dogs for his majors. He should've gotten two three points his first weekend out but a person scratched their entry right before and we were one short on males. >.<

Finding majors is a PITA.

Anyways, I *think* the orginal topic was discussing a specific property in no way connected to FrenchKissed and how it appeared to be an inadequate way to house dogs. Which I agree.

Now three topics later and.... well, you can see.

So I'll quote myself from several pages back.


Secondly, I think enough is enough and am really tired of discussing FrenchKissed's breeding practices...

[bubbatd]

I've given myself a Mod slap on my fingers and will stay away from this for now . Anything said would be just repeating myself . ( Will be lurking though , so behave ! )

[smkie]

Why lock a thread when there are posts that provide learning experiences?
exactly. I think this is one of the most important topics of canines today. These breeding practices have impact on the overall market, health, breed, pet ownership, disease and genetic makeup of future pets and working dogs, shelters, vet practices are all impacted by the results I am sure i have left some out, like the heart break, and pocketbook depletion of the owner as well. If this one isn't important, i don't know what is.
Until you have stood back and realized that 50 puppies are about to be put to sleep, are in agony from someone's greed..that parvo shots not boosted, not given at the right time are as good as no shots are at all, you just don't see the full picture. Mass production means mass sales. That leads to petstores, brokers, and improper shipping practices. Corners get cut to save cost, and the end result is always the same, somewhere along the line you end up with either weakened, sick or dead puppies. Usually after the new owner has put forth a great amount of funds trying to save the puppies life. That misery is not right!
Our kennel checked hips and eyes, both were certified before breeding and a guarantee was made that the pups would be sound. I don't know what split decisions are made in that department, i don't know what split decisions should ever be made in a breeding. I can think of nothing that deserves more time and consideration. Split decisions just do not belong in the same subject.

IF someone is going to justify mass breeding, they should be able to discuss their breeding practices. How many litters a year, and how they mantain the health of that many dogs. What they do to keep the best qualities of the breed without developing weaknesses genetically. How they balance profit, with preventitive medicine. I am an open mind, willing to see proof that what i have believed in the past to be untrue. But without foundation of an operation, how many animals, how many litters, how much goes back into mantaining the health of the "stock", that is hard to see. I read about paying the bills of the operator, about personal time and privacy. Yet that isn't the main issue is it? If your going to justify mass breeding, then show the facts and prove that no harm is done before discussing the personal needs of the owner.

[Buddy'sParents]

(Fingers crossed, I've always wanted to be someone's pet!!)

*strokes Keri's hair*

Good grrl.

Sit.

*click*

*treat*

:p

[Angel Chicken]

*strokes Keri's hair*

Good grrl.

Sit.

*click*

*treat*

:p
:lol-sign:

[smkie]

for me it started with the picture of the kennel. The question was "is this adaquate housing" of which i believe it is not. Then it led to would this be a proper boarding or breeding facility? IF keeping dogs in that quantity is ethical. As a boarding facility i can't see how it could possibly clean enough and as a breeding facility the wire enclosures falls far from safe. A member came into defense and stated that they had wire enclosures and felt that it was better for pads then concrete or dirt. That multiple breeding (if i am not mistaken) was their business and backed up their stand with the practices they followed. Opening up the current topic. Mass breeding and in their own words..why they felt their practices were ethical. That allowed a new discussion to form, of why the practices are in the best interest of the dogs or only the owner/operator. The information was brought forth voluntarily, not dragged out from another forum, or from a website. That allows other members to give forth questions on the stand that this member has taken. All is fair when they open the topics themselves.

[Buddy'sParents]

exactly. I think this is one of the most important topics of canines today. These breeding practices have impact on the overall market, health, breed, pet ownership, disease and genetic makeup of future pets and working dogs, shelters, vet practices are all impacted by the results I am sure i have left some out, like the heart break, and pocketbook depletion of the owner as well. If this one isn't important, i don't know what is.
Until you have stood back and realized that 50 puppies are about to be put to sleep, are in agony from someone's greed..that parvo shots not boosted, not given at the right time are as good as no shots are at all, you just don't see the full picture. Mass production means mass sales. That leads to petstores, brokers, and improper shipping practices. Corners get cut to save cost, and the end result is always the same, somewhere along the line you end up with either weakened, sick or dead puppies. Usually after the new owner has put forth a great amount of funds trying to save the puppies life. That misery is not right!
Our kennel checked hips and eyes, both were certified before breeding and a guarantee was made that the pups would be sound. I don't know what split decisions are made in that department, i don't know what split decisions should ever be made in a breeding. I can think of nothing that deserves more time and consideration. Split decisions just do not belong in the same subject.

IF someone is going to justify mass breeding, they should be able to discuss their breeding practices. How many litters a year, and how they mantain the health of that many dogs. What they do to keep the best qualities of the breed without developing weaknesses genetically. How they balance profit, with preventitive medicine. I am an open mind, willing to see proof that what i have believed in the past to be untrue. But without foundation of an operation, how many animals, how many litters, how much goes back into mantaining the health of the "stock", that is hard to see. I read about paying the bills of the operator, about personal time and privacy. Yet that isn't the main issue is it? If your going to justify mass breeding, then show the facts and prove that no harm is done before discussing the personal needs of the owner.


I think smkie has made some excellent points throughout this thread. There is something to learn from this discussion if personal insults can be left out.

This is obviously a topic that many are passionate about and it's easy to flare up... so let's take that into consideration when we post in it.

[ToscasMom]

*strokes Keri's hair*

Good grrl.

Sit.

*click*

*treat*

:p

Sit!! Stay!!!

[savethebulliedbreeds]

And now this thread had turned into a question of why this thread is open.

I really am not quite sure why when a person doesn't want to be involved in a thread why they keep posting.

Anyways, on with the actual thread.

[ToscasMom]

But of course, so long as both are of legal consenting age...doesn't hurt if teacher is hot as well ;)

Sorry I just saw this post and would like to ask you a hypothetical question. Would it be ok if it were your graduating senior daughter and her hot math teacher? Would morality and ethics matter then?

...and your answer to this:
Originally Posted by blue
How about if the age of consent is 16 and the adult is a cop?

Aaaaw...is that a proposition?

Seriously, for me, that would be a negative. For anyone else it would really depend on a particular states' Training and Standards protocol, which all Officers must follow when they take the Oath, regardless of what the law is.
Please see above question as it would pertain to your own daughter and one of your fellow officers. Would morals and ethics enter into the picture then?

Also,
Do you really think that teachers, who spend their entire day with underage people should have a lower standard pertaining to having sex with students than police officers--legal "oaths" aside?

Do you have a daughter? And if not, might you eventually have one? When that happens, will other people's ethics and morals matter to you with respect to her? I've seen many a man change his tune when his own daughter arrived and started to grow and develop. Just saying.

[IliamnasQuest]

Is "mass breeding" the topic? What is the topic? Hard to tell...are we "grading kennels" or "grading breeding practices"?.

As is typical in nearly any thread, the topic meanders and branches out. This is normal and not something to be concerned about. I would think that only people who NEVER get off the original topic would have true reason to grumble about it.

Are we speaking specifically ONLY of this one person? If so...why? Why are we not discussing this in general, rather than picking apart one person for no other reason than they are not perhaps "popular"?

The person in question brought on a sense of "unpopularity" by her support of people's rights to breed in puppymill fashion (in my definition, breeding large quantities of dogs, not necessarily of good quality, kept in less than optimum housing, with the emphasis on profit more than anything else). If you've been on this forum long, you'll know that anything reeking of puppymill will quickly be denounced. And then it was discovered that the person in question had a large quantity of dogs herself (30-50) and was breeding and selling. This, logically, then led to the question as to whether she was defending the puppymill concept because she herself was on the border of being one.

From what I have experienced actually being a person who breeds and shows, most Toy people I know breed more than 2 litters per annum as litter sizes are small. Most keep more than 4-5 dogs because they are small and tend to live together okay in groups.

I wasn't one who ever said it was bad to have a couple of litters a year. I think that it's feasible, if done right. What I don't like is the thought of having so many dogs that there isn't a possibility of quality human contact on a daily basis, and having litter after litter after litter - in essence, using the dogs as breeding machines and not as companions. There was also a question as to the whole "little dogs can't learn to potty outside" and how it reflects on a breeder if they promote that concept.

Goldens...it takes FOUR bitches to make ONE point in my area...and for a 3pts major it takes...TWENTY TWO DOGS and TWENTY FOUR bitches to make it. Often, bitches and quite a few dogs of this breed are bred without a Conf Ch because it takes an immense amount of work and time to get one, it may never come if you run into politics or are not in a position to hire a big gun! It also may in fact never come if in your area there aren't enough dogs or bitches showing to make your major. You CANNOT finish a dog's Ch without two majors...sheesh.

If you'll check back, the question was of a Canadian conformation championship. In Canada it is MUCH easier to get points and it only takes ten points to earn the championship. A major is just two points there (something I accomplished with my bitch in our only weekend of showing in Canada so far). My friend with the golden male earned his championship in one weekend (six shows). I've known several people to do that.

Personally I think that if you don't want to get a conformation championship, that's not a terrible thing. But you do need to prove your dog, in my opinion. Get some performance titles (plural) on the dog, have it breed surveyed by breed judges or experienced people in the breed (NOT by your friends and acquaintances - you should have unbiased opinions), and make sure that you're not breeding just because you want to produce some quick puppies/money.

Having a kennel set up? oH YES...that's horrid too!...lol. Ya know what they call people who have intact dogs running around in their homes in numbers over what 3-4? with no means to separate them and prevent unwanted litters? or keep puppies safe from the older dogs? Or keep older fragile dogs safe from rambunctiuos puppies? Or to keep resident dogs safe from disease brought in by outside dogs or fosters? Hoarders...yes, far preferable to a nice clean roomy kennel set up used as secondary housing.

Why is it that people justify one poor behavior by describing other behaviors that are possibly worse? Saying it's okay to have dogs living in kennels because it's not as bad as having intact animals mating indiscriminately in the house is like saying it's okay to hit a person with a baseball bat because hitting them with a steel pipe would be worse. BOTH can be wrong, and just because one isn't as wrong as the other doesn't make it right.

The problem with kennels is that people tend to keep more dogs than they can handle properly, in my opinion. Kennel dogs don't have great lives. They may have food and shelter and safety, but that's often all it is. We developed these animals to either have a job or to be our companions, and leaving them to live in a kennel set-up (regardless of how nice it is - even if it has an indoor area with little couches and all that) is just not the nicest thing to do to our dogs. Why have dogs if you're not going to actively interact with them on a regular basis? I suppose some will say "well, I have all these dogs for my breeding program!" .. and then that takes us full circle to the beginning.

I personally think that we shouldn't have more dogs than we can spend quality time with on a daily basis. I do believe in confinement as necessary and I use ex-pens and crates to separate my little monster pup from the other girls (so that the older ones can have some "calm" time .. *L*). But I've got her out, playing, with me throwing a toy for her and working with her and loving her several times a day. It's a responsibility to my dogs that I accepted when I brought them into my life, and yes - I do get judgemental toward those who view dogs as just a business proposition.

Relax a bit, it's okay for a thread to take on different life as it progresses .. :D

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Buckshot]

The only mod that has no hypocriscy is Buckshot. He stands for nothing as he believes in nothing. Chaos theory is a fantastic subject.

I have seen very little hypocrisy with any of the mods. If I had to come up with a single example I would be at a loss. I do avoid these type of threads usually until this was brought to my attention.

If I take no stand, how come we usually argue? Believe in nothing..do you mean spiritually? I dont believe in gods and ghosts. If you are talking about tangible things that can be seen, heard, touched smelled or tasted, I believe as deeply as any other person, even if it isnt the same belief as them. I have mentioned that I enjoy chaos, it motivates me and I feel that chaos is where I am at my best, when those around me are freaking out, I pride myself on my ability to stay focused and calm. I didnt know there was a theory that was so captivating to others about the subject. Because I am an Anarchist doesnt mean that I have no stance or beliefs, quite the opposite in fact. Tell a friend of mine someday that I stand for nothing or believe in nothing and you will be laughed at, but thanks for saying that I am not a hypocrite I try very hard not to be.

[blue]

I was poorly pointing to your love for chaos.

[blue]

http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/compromise.jpg

[HoundedByHounds]

Relax a bit, it's okay for a thread to take on different life as it progresses .. :D

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Hey Melanie...the mod, asked the thread to remain on topic...not me. I asked what the topic WAS because it was lost amongst all the personal crap-o-la. Asking for clarification so I can indeed..post on topic doesn't sound out of line to me.

You are entitled to your opinions as am I and they don't match up in many areas and that's fine. I doubt either one of us is running for "Dog World Dictator" anytime soon...so what we do on a personal level to educate the buyer and help our breeds in general will have to do.

[savethebulliedbreeds]

This message brought to you by the person who likes to make his dog think hes drowning....have a nice day

You said exactly what I was thinking.

[Aussie Red]

CK you are really starting to worry me lol. I am proud of you .

[blue]

http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/power.jpg

[IliamnasQuest]

Hey Melanie...the mod, asked the thread to remain on topic...not me. I asked what the topic WAS because it was lost amongst all the personal crap-o-la. Asking for clarification so I can indeed..post on topic doesn't sound out of line to me.

And the topic varied as they tend to do in threads .. *L* .. somehow you mananged to discuss most of them in your post, so evidently YOU thought they were all topics too. You just seemed a bit worked up over it, is all. The mods mostly try to keep people from getting personal, and "let's stay on topic" is a common way to do that.

You are entitled to your opinions as am I and they don't match up in many areas and that's fine. I doubt either one of us is running for "Dog World Dictator" anytime soon...so what we do on a personal level to educate the buyer and help our breeds in general will have to do.

Yep, we're both entitled to our opinions, even if yours is wrong .. *G*

And "Dog World Dictator" sounds like too much work. We both have dogs that need the time instead.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[taratippy]

Sorry I just saw this post and would like to ask you a hypothetical question. Would it be ok if it were your graduating senior daughter and her hot math teacher? Would morality and ethics matter then?

...and your answer to this:

Please see above question as it would pertain to your own daughter and one of your fellow officers. Would morals and ethics enter into the picture then?

Also,
Do you really think that teachers, who spend their entire day with underage people should have a lower standard pertaining to having sex with students than police officers--legal "oaths" aside?

Do you have a daughter? And if not, might you eventually have one? When that happens, will other people's ethics and morals matter to you with respect to her? I've seen many a man change his tune when his own daughter arrived and started to grow and develop. Just saying.

Someone said way back that this thread was educational - can I ask what about? No one is going to get anything from this its just to bizarre! What on earth has this got to do with breeding dogs?????

[taratippy]

Hey Melanie...the mod, asked the thread to remain on topic...not me. I asked what the topic WAS because it was lost amongst all the personal crap-o-la. Asking for clarification so I can indeed..post on topic doesn't sound out of line to me.



Im sure with you on that one :hail:

[doberkim]

Dang, got me again. There's just no pulling one over on you is there.

:rolleyes:

I'd rather have titles that show I trained and interacted with my dogs and have a wonderful bond with them than any title you have managed to pay someone to slap on your dogs' names.

I don't understand this.

Excuse me, but the training and relationship I have built with my dog that involve obedience training are certainly not titles that I have paid someone to slap on my dog. On the converse I could say that simply because you cannot put enough "good manners" on your dog to obtain a simple CD shows how lazy you are. I know it takes a lot more than just simple good manners for some dogs, but throwing around accusations and all these half-truths are ridiculous.


Performance titles are viable titles that often take a LOT more time and investment than other titles, especially when you go onto higher levels. And they have involved a lot of training, interaction, and love.

The hypocrisy on the board is funny sometimes... it's ok for people to breed dogs with only CH titles, but some would clearly feel it is not ok to breed only with performance titles?

[Dizzy]

The hypocrisy on the board is funny sometimes...

Careful saying that - apparently there is no hypocrisy, and if you think there is then apparently.... you're a hypocrite.

It's fantastic logic :D

[ACooper]

... it's ok for people to breed dogs with only CH titles, but some would clearly feel it is not ok to breed only with performance titles?

I don't think that is what shadow was talking about.........she was talking about sending your dog out with handlers.

Correct me if I am wrong Shadow.

[shadowfacedanes]

I don't think that is what shadow was talking about.........she was talking about sending your dog out with handlers.

Correct me if I am wrong Shadow.

Nope, you're correct.

Doberkim, re-read.

I was saying that I would rather have ANY title on my dogs name that I had earned myself, meaning that I WORKD WITH MY DOG, and bonded with my dog and spent the time with my dog as opposed to the person I was replying to.

Before you insult me, make sure you've taken what I've written in the correct context first.

I also did not bash obedience titles. I mentioned my previous dane's titles and a comment was made saying those weren't legit titles. So hence my reply that you quoted.

And for the record, because of Hannah's spinal injuries, she cannot physically obtain obedience titles. But thanks for implying that I'm lazy. And a hypocrite.

[cockerchaos]

Nope, you're correct.

Doberkim, re-read.

I was saying that I would rather have ANY title on my dogs name that I had earned myself, meaning that I WORKD WITH MY DOG, and bonded with my dog and spent the time with my dog as opposed to the person I was replying to.

Before you insult me, make sure you've taken what I've written in the correct context first.

I also did not bash obedience titles. I mentioned my previous dane's titles and a comment was made saying those weren't legit titles. So hence my reply that you quoted.


And for the record, because of Hannah's spinal injuries, she cannot physically obtain obedience titles. But thanks for implying that I'm lazy. And a hypocrite.


Have you ever given any thought to some PEOPLE who physically CAN'T handle their own dogs to titles because of a possible physical impairment?
I'd rather have a title slapped on to none at all.

[Psyfalcon]

How many people does that actually effect? What are the physical requirements for a human during an obedience trial or temperament test? I guess we're near the end of this argument when the point being made gets this convoluted. Sure, if you can't walk or wheel yourself around with your dog, go ahead and hire someone, but how can you care for a dog while being that impaired?

Besides conformation, a lot of otherwise very difficult to handle dogs are handled or trained by professionals in the field trial world.

[cockerchaos]

How many people does that actually effect? What are the physical requirements for a human during an obedience trial or temperament test? I guess we're near the end of this argument when the point being made gets this convoluted. Sure, if you can't walk or wheel yourself around with your dog, go ahead and hire someone, but how can you care for a dog while being that impaired?

Besides conformation, a lot of otherwise very difficult to handle dogs are handled or trained by professionals in the field trial world.


Uuuuum, so no one should have a dog now that may be impaired?? Talk about convulted.

Let's use bad knees for example....not bad enough to get around and function but the repetative rigors or showing or trialing would be hell on them and/or make it worse. I DO know a few show people that have gone through this...easier to get a handler and saves the knees.
Or: high blood pressure
bad circulation from diabetes
too fat to run around with their dog (sorry, but that happens too so just being honest)
OLD age (lots of them around)

There are MANY reasons some can't handle their own dogs. Some are just too d@mn scared to do it themselves or don't want to deal with some of the pompous attitudes at the shows.

So, none of this has anything to do with ones ability to care for their dogs.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Have you ever given any thought to some PEOPLE who physically CAN'T handle their own dogs to titles because of a possible physical impairment?
I'd rather have a title slapped on to none at all.

FWIW, I know of and have seen numerous people competing with dogs who were in wheel chairs.

Both in breed and obedience. The obedience dog was a VERY high scoring dog.

[cockerchaos]

FWIW, I know of and have seen numerous people competing with dogs who were in wheel chairs.

Both in breed and obedience. The obedience dog was a VERY high scoring dog.


I have too...and I admire the ones that do even if the are few and far between.
But the point I was trying to make is that it is nice to be able to have a CHOICE to use a handler or not without it being construed as a bad thing because one does not handle their own dogs for ANY reason.

[cockerchaos]

Oh, and in the case of knees, or any other joint disease, I think I would rather the handler BEFORE putting myself in a wheelchair because of it.

[FrenchKissed]

The most common reason why people use handlers is that they work. Not everyone has the luxary of being off every weekend or being off at all. There are those of us who work jobs we cannot up an leave without making arrangements that wind up costing more money then it would to just hire a handler.

[verderben]

Ok I am still reading this thread but I don't understand some people here sometimes. I have and still do use a professional handler. But *I* go to conformation classes with my dogs, *I* have trained them for the ring, I also have handled my own dogs in the ring when able to. BUT if not for a handler my dogs would NOT be titled. I work EVERY weekend. I do not get a weekend off unless I take a vacation day. And where I work, from November 1 to January 1 you are allowed NO vacation time because it is our busiest time. And the BIGGEST shows and specialties here are during that time. Without a handler my dogs would not be able to compete in those shows. I don't see how having a handler makes your dogs titles any less valid, and I think some people are grasping at straws here just because they have a personal vendetta going on. JMO

[ACooper]

**sigh**

[shadowfacedanes]

I have no problems with handlers.

I have problems with people who have 30 gazillion dogs and their handler(s) probably knows their dogs better than them.

When I mentioned my previous dogs' titles, I was told that they were not legitimate AKC titles.

My reply was meant to convey that I would rather have those "illegitimate" titles (TT, TDI, CGC) that I earned with my dog - showing that I spent the time with my dog and the effort with my dog - than the CH's that FK has paid a handler to put on her dogs.

That's all.

So please, don't turn this into something more than it is.

[FrenchKissed]

I have no problems with handlers. My reply was meant to convey that I would rather have those "illegitimate" titles (TT, TDI, CGC) that I earned with my dog - showing that I spent the time with my dog and the effort with my dog - than the CH's that FK has paid a handler to put on her dogs..



The thing about chin is, if they are not well socialized, well handled, and trained from almost birth they will never show and be like wild squirrles. The one who are well handled will sometimes re