My dog attacks or bites

[first_major]

My dog, a young germane Shepard, around 5 to 6 months, is well trained, SIT, HERE, DOWN, STAY, however whenever with me on a leash or nor and someone comes close it gets aggressive and wants to bite and attack or it actually has done that always, i have only had it for a week, its very good with me, but not with anyone close!!! might it be fear , any recommendation on what type of training is should do? obedience or what??

[Doberluv]

It sounds like someone waited too long already. What kind of socialization has this dog had? Do you know his background? Is this an aggressive type attack or play? What is he like when he does this?

I recommend you get a certified behaviorist asap. This pup is getting too old to be doing this. Do not use stern punishment on this dog in association with other people. You'll need to utilize a systematic desesatization process and associate good behvior and people (at a distance which is comforatable to him) with high value treats, praise etc. If he had no socialization as a pup before about 4 months of age, it is going to be extremely difficult to get him accustomed to novel things or people.

Please get professional help now or your dog is going to end up having to be destroyed. I am very sorry you're having this difficulty. Keep us updated of any progress. (Yes, obedience using positive methods is a must)

[squirtsmom]

Ditto what Doberluv said. Good luck.

[ChrisM]

First Major,

It isn't too late for your dog, you need to take the role of Master. You have to be the one in charge, if your child hit the neighbor nobody on this board would recommend 'destroying' them, but all too often if somebodies dog is acting out it seems that the only answer is to have them put down. You can correct the situation that you are in, but we need to know why the dog is being aggressive. Is he taking the role of Master because you haven't laid down the law as who is in charge? If you don't take that role a German Shepherd's dog will. There are many other reasons why your dog may be showing aggression, all which can be fixed w/o having to put them down.

Please email me at [mod edit: no posting of email addresses on the forum please. You can use the pm feature] and I will forward you my phone number and we can discuss how to correct the situation that you are in.

Take care

[Xerxes]

It sounds like someone waited too long already. What kind of socialization has this dog had? Do you know his background? Is this an aggressive type attack or play? What is he like when he does this?

I recommend you get a certified behaviorist asap. This pup is getting too old to be doing this. Do not use stern punishment on this dog in association with other people. You'll need to utilize a systematic desesatization process and associate good behvior and people (at a distance which is comforatable to him) with high value treats, praise etc. If he had no socialization as a pup before about 4 months of age, it is going to be extremely difficult to get him accustomed to novel things or people.

Please get professional help now or your dog is going to end up having to be destroyed. I am very sorry you're having this difficulty. Keep us updated of any progress. (Yes, obedience using positive methods is a must)

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: Great post Dober!

[Doberluv]

*thanks Xerxes.*:)

I would never suggest as a first resort putting a dog down. But if this isn't handled properly, it may be in your dog's future. You can be forced by the law to put your dog down if he bites someone.

If this is aggression, for whatever reason or if this is something else....barrier (leash) frustration, exciteable play....only by being physically seen can that be determined. It may not be true aggression at all.

I urge you to get a certified applied behaviorist to evaluate your dog and you....the relationship, the dynamics day to day....rather than trying to evaluate exactly what is going on without seeing the dog personally. No one can know what is likely causing anything without seeing body language and many subtle things, including how you two interact. There is only so much to be had over the Internet and when it is something serious, the Internet is not enough.

At any rate, regardless....I urge you to utilize what is known about canine behavior and human relationships, what modern trainers and scientists know and research shows... how behavior problems are dealt with. And not to go with anyone who encourages harsh punishment or the philosophy that you must have absolute domination over your dog by means of stern punishment. (not saying that Chris is about that because I have not read any specifics from that post. But it got me thinking)

There are ways to train a dog and to work through many problems by using scientific learning theory....operant and classical conditioning without harsh aversives. Being a leader means being a benevolent and trusted owner who controls the dog's resources. Many people and trainers will tell you that to be a leader, you need to use pain, intimidation, fear and cause avoidance, which causes supression of behavior. But that's what those things do....supress momentarily the behavior and create a ticking time bomb...a dog who at some future time is likely to explode. He never learns that the trigger he is stressing over is actually a good thing but associates that person or dog with fear if he's been punished in the presence of the trigger. (it's how dogs are). There is a ton of other fall out that can come from stern aversive punishment in training. Do be careful who you get to help with your dog.

Another thing. I agree that it is possible to work through this problem. However, when ample socialization wasn't done before the puppy was about 4 months old, it is indeed extremely difficult to make the dog comfortable with what he was not socialized to. It can be done to a degree but it is almost never quite the same. And here's why:

All animals have both curiosity and caution of novel things. As youngsters, their curiosity is stronger than or equal to their caution. There is a window of time for for them to discover what is safe, normal, an every day type thing in their environment and what is not because at some point (in dogs it's around 4-5 months old) they must learn that normal things, like the rustling of trees, the chirping of birds, the running of a stream will not harm them or they couldn't function in their environment. They'd be afraid of everything. But they must learn to be cautious of things that might hurt them in their environment or they couldn't live long enough to reproduce and perpetuate the species. They couldn't be curious about and approach everything or the odds would rise that they might make a deadly mistake. They may be curious about certain things, but if they haven't needed those things up to now to survive, they aren't very compelled toward them, as adults. If they make a mistake in judgement about a novel thing, they're dead, they can't pass on their curious genes. So, caution is the default setting for dogs once they pass that window of about 4-5 months of age.

If they weren't cautious of novel things, then you'd have all kinds of wild animals coming up to you in the forest to check you out and be friendly.

Those things which they have not been socialized to are not part of the repertoire of normal things like the running stream, the chirping birds, the rustling trees. There is a window for socialization with ALL animals, after which it becomes imperative that they use caution with novel things and have what's called flight distance....a certain distance at which they become fearful and cautious of novel things. They are always trying to maintain a certain flight distance, whether it requires them to run away or to attack and make the other guy go away. This is a default behavior to either run or attack.... for dogs that have not been properly socialized to those things....and although some of it can be over come with PROPER conditioning, it is not easy.

There has been a rash of people coming on this forum just lately who do not understand dog behavior at all and are all about employing punishment for behavior which is natural for a dog. Most aggression is based on fear. There are ways to work with things, but whoever you get to help you MUST understand canine behavior, learning theory and use positive method training. And they must be reputable and educated IMO. Be very cautious and do your research.

I do agree that we must be leaders and be in charge of our dogs. But there is a lot of controversy of how we go about that. Many trainers are what some of us call "old school," which is really not very descriptive, but it means that they are not keeping up with what is being learned about behavior from research, studies, top notch trainers who have oodles of experience and education. Many rely on mistreatement and indeed abuse for their handling. I am adamantly opposed to using avoidance techniques on dogs. There are other ways.

[ChrisM]

Doberluv, if you took what I said as an attack on you it was not. This was about the 3rd thread I was reading where they were talking about putting the dog down. I just don't see that as being an answer, if you take control of your dog then you will not let yourself be put into this type of position. I too agree with positive training, but there also needs to be corrections as well.

[Doberluv]

Oh Chris. I did not take it as an attack on me. No....not at all. I don't know what you mean by corrections. But I warn about stern corrections, pain, discomfort, fear...or things which cause a dog to learn because of avoidance. I have not had to use corrections (the way I think most people think of corrections) on my dogs. There are other ways. Putting a dog on the defensive is never a good idea, especially one that already has a problem like this.

And I didn't mean to imply anything in particular because there simply wasn't enough in your post for me to go on. Like I said, there has been an uncommon rash of people coming to this forum with advice but no knowledge of behavioral science. And I just wanted to use caution for the OP.

And I certainly do not want this thread to become another debate over training methods. I simply want to give the O.P. the tools to begin to work this problem. I really don't think I can say more. Heaven knows....my posts are painfully long as it is. LOL.

[showdawgz]

IMO, its a fear issue, as the dog is uncomfortable with people getting too close. I agree with Doberluv, when it comes to fear and young puppies, I would not resort to physical punishment as it will only create more anxiety and stress in those situations.

By agressive what do you mean exactly? Lunging out and attempting to bite, or just barking/grumbling?

[Doberluv]

when it comes to fear and young puppies, I would not resort to physical punishment as it will only create more anxiety and stress in those situations.

Yes, and also....besides that, there are marked physiological and biochemical changes which take place in the central nervous system which have a profound affect on a dog. Here, you have a dog that is in a highly aroused, stressful state. He's already moving from operating from his cortex (the thinking/reasoning part of the brain) to the limbic system (the part of the brain concerned with respiration, blood pressure, heart rate, circulation, pituitary output, hormones/chemicals..... fight or flight...etc) When the dog's autonomic nervous system is in full swing, hormonal changes take place, adrenelin is surging and he's readying for fight or flight. He needs all he can get for this "emergency." Analyzing and comprehension goes out the window. He is unable to learn or be taught anything at this time. Aggression or corrections used by the owner or trainer can trigger a re-directed aggression to the owner. It raises steroids, heart rate etc even more. This is why aggression of any kind, including collar corrections are not used by most professional behaviorists. And why counter-conditioning and desensatizing techniques are used. No corrections because the dog's environment and the dog is set up so that corrections become a moot point or unnecessary. Only positive associations are made with the "offending" stimuli and it is all carried out in a methodical way. The "bad" thing is turned into a "good" thing, in other words and only that can happen when the dog is operating by way of his cortex....when he's calm.

[malmo]

Doberluv, this was a really helpful post. Thank you.

[Doberluv]

Thanks Malmo. I think that even though we probably already know all that pretty much, it can be helpful to bring it to the forefront again....to remember that dogs are animals and don't quite think about things the way we do. I think it's important to understand dogs so that we have more compassion for them. From there, training methods begin to make better sense...the whys and wherefores. Things come together better.

[~Tucker&Me~]

Excellent post Dober.

~Tucker

[IliamnasQuest]

I wrote something out on desensitization that can help people understand it a bit - this may give the OP a place to start, although I highly recommend finding someone to help set up an appropriate training situation for the dog.

http://www.kippsdogs.com/desensitization.html

This is a brief break-down of how to set up a desensitization program. What I read in the first post makes me think that the dog is most likely showing a fear reaction, which causes him to act aggressive (he's probably learned that acting aggressive makes the thing he fears - people - move away).

IF you use punishment in order to "fix" the problem, you would probably see an immediate change in the dog - however, you are merely forcing the dog into hiding the fear and it doesn't stop the fear from being there. I've seen dogs trained like that who suddenly go from calm behavior to wild aggression, because they've been taught (through punishment) to hide the signs that they're fearful. The best way to deal with these types of problems is to show the dog that there is nothing to be feared (hence the use of desensitization).

Good luck -

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Doberluv]

Thanks Tucker. That was nice.

That's a good explanation there Melanie, in your link. That's the way it's done. In addition, what some trainers do, is to reward the dog's calmness by moving further away. In other words, before the dog reacts, but he does see the person, he is treated and praised and taken away a little further, turned away. Or...if you have a helper, ask the person to walk further away. It can show him that for now....while he person is still a kind of scary thing, that calmness causes the scary thing to go away....just what he would like. But a reaction, (if you misjudge the distance) does not make the scary thing go away. You wait for a moment of calm, a break in the barking or lunging and then make the "get away." LOL.

Later, as the person has been tossing treats and the person is starting to look better and better, no longer does the dog need the person to go away. It transforms into a thing where the person does become rewarding instead of the absense of the person being rewarding.

I don't know if you've heard of doing that or not. But I thought I'd throw it in for good measure. LOL. However, your procedure is just the ticket for reactionary dogs. It's what I do with my dog reactive dog when I get the chance. (not enough practice though) That link could come in handy for a lot of people, I'm sure.