Big Mistake????

[lesslis]

How would you have handled this? Here's the situation. My friend was over with her 7 month old male german shepherd, we were in the backyard with my 18 month old female GSD. Bentley (the 7 month old) was playing/collecting all the toys in the backyard. I reached down to grab a tug toy off the ground and Bentley went for it. I got scared and started swinging the toy around and making very quick movements. I guess that triggered his prey drive and he was determined to get the toy. He missed the toy and got my elbow, natural instinct kicked in, as he was acting very agressive, and i attempted to kick him and that move just pissed him off. He swung around to my other side and latched on. My friend had to pry him off of me.

Besides the quick movements being a stupid thing, is there anything else that could have prevented this incident from happening? How should Bentley have been corrected (if any should have been given)?

BTW, Bentley comes from Czech lines, and has a very high prey. Completely different than my American pet lines shepherd.

[squirtsmom]

Oh boy. I don't know much about shepherds, but if my Baby, Great Pyr did that, i would be disturbed. Someone will give you good advice here.

[heartdogs]

Well, for one thing, stop thinking so much about "correcting", and definitely never kick your dog. Aggression begets aggression. So much better to avoid toy and tug games until your dog understands an "out" or "trade" cue. If I were you, I'd look into clicker training this dog. GSD's are smart, and they are usually food motivated, and toy motivated, which makes training them easy.
www.clickerlessons.com
Places to find trainers who can help you:
www.peaceablepaws.com
www.trulydogfriendly.com
www.apdt.com

[showdawgz]

The dog wasnt hers, and how would you react if a dog was trying to bite you? Its a normal human instict to defend themselves. I'm assuming this person has no prior experience to a high drive/fearless working dog. Would you just allow a dog to repeately bite at you in an agressive manner without reacting?

My advice, dont pick up the toys and run around, and expect the dog to remain calm. its the owners fault, by not controlling his dog and the other's fault for triggering prey drive, and then bringing out the agression by attempting to kick the dog.

[Buddy'sParents]

Hmm. Well, the dog should be taught "leave it" or similar command by it's owner so that one CAN bend down to pick up a toy without being attacked by a high prey drive dog. I'm not sure what you were thinking you were going to accomplish by swinging it around? :confused: To my dogs that says, "mommy wants to play". Where was his owner during this time? Why didn't he call his dog off?

[Doberluv]

I agree that when caught in the middle of being bitten, ya gotta do what ya gotta do to break off the biting. However, this friend of yours needs to train her dog and in the meantime, I wouldn't play rough games like that with him.

She needs to teach him to "leave it" and "out" and to give and drop things when asked, by way of trading things with him for a higher value treat or item. When a dog bites me by accident when we're playing (and I'm not talking about an intentional bite like the incident you had) I end all play immediately. Game over. However, this was intentional. The dog has not learned bite inhibition and that human skin is very fragile. She has some major catch up work to do with him and I suspect she should get a good, reputable positive method trainer to help because it sounds like up to now, she hasn't done much....she probably doesn't know much.

Is this dog enrolled in an obedience class? If he were up to par on his basic obedience, you could have asked for a sit/stay while you went to pick up the toy or "leave it." The dog should not be grabbing anything out of anyone's hands, but instead be waiting for an invitation to play. Look up NILIF for her. Without taking it to the extreme, I would recommend implimenting some of that. The dog sounds like he needs some manners and needs to learn that humans control his resources. He does not. This does not come by way of stern punishment....absolutely not. A good leader is benevolent, but consistant and learns how to communicate in a way the dog can understand. Emphasise and reward good behavior. Look for it. Capture it and reinforce with more than praise....with something the dog wants badly at the time or food. If the dog wants the toy, he must do something to earn it first. If he wants to go outside, he must sit first and wait for a release....stuff like that.

I hope he's getting plenty of exercise and some structured obedience practice. Best wishes. Hope you're OK.

[corgipower]

He missed the toy and got my elbow, natural instinct kicked in, as he was acting very agressive

i'm not clear on where the aggression was. this would be a misdirected bite, not an aggressive bite, which can and does happen in a young, high drive dog when trying to grab a moving toy.

[Dog_ma]

Oh my. Unfortunately, this reads like 100% handler error.

A young dog gets an arm when going for a wildly swinging toy, and gets "attacked" (kicked) in return for his lack of precision. He then defends himself by biting with intent.

No doubt, this is a dog that needs careful handling due to his drive and confidence, but I think he was set up to fail in this situation.

I hope your injuries aren't too bad, lesslis. That is a painful way to learn dog handling lessons, and it must have been frightening.

[IliamnasQuest]

I agree with Doberluv, this dog needs some serious work. Bite inhibition should be well in place with a seven month old dog, especially if that dog is going to be around people who don't really know it. The first grab for the toy that resulted in a bite can be understood to a certain extent (although once he hit skin he should have immediately stopped) but when he came around you and latched on to the point where the other person had to pry him off, that bite is not excusable in any way.

I have working line GSD's too (my 14 week old pup is German and Czech lines) and while they are encouraged to bite toys and to even play rough, they are taught young that teeth on skin is a definite NO! If that had been MY dog, he would have known not to bite and if he HAD grabbed on (through poor judgement) I would have instantly had him off and on the ground. I don't like using those techniques, but man .. if you friend is going to own a working line dog she better learn really quick how to control him.

As far as how you could have prevented it - I think you already know some of that. Here's a dog that hoards toys and you took a toy, and then started jerking the toy around. Dropping it would probably have worked. But regardless, he should NOT have bit you and his owner should take this as a warning. If he pulls that on someone not as forgiving, she'll find him labeled as a dangerous dog and maybe even quarantined or worse, ordered put to death.

I hope she gets him to classes soon. Even if he's a competition schutzhund dog, she's got to have control of his biting impulses.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Doberluv]

If he pulls that on someone not as forgiving, she'll find him labeled as a dangerous dog and maybe even quarantined or worse, ordered put to death.

Unfortunately, this is a real possibility if this isn't brought under control.

In addition, I adamantly recommend that you or your friend do not put him on the ground if such an incident happens again. It's a good way to put a dog in more of a defensive position and you could get a bad bite. It is imperative that prevention of such a situation where this is likely to occur is in place.

He must be given a constructive outlet for his drives and plenty of exercise and more structure. A good training class would be wise.

Meanwhile, there are exercises which specifically can teach the dog the things he needs to know, but they are done methodically and systematically, not dealt with when he's in the throws of out-of-control behavior. That is not the time to train.

Usually bite inhibition training begins with a young puppy. It is more difficult but not impossible to work through it now.

Start from the ground up rather than starting at the height of arousal. Lessons should be learned first, in a calm setting, an undistracting environment. This is where the beginning takes place. The dog is reinforced for gentle mouthing in very low levels of arousal and in various contexts. She really needs a good, positive method trainer and/or certified behaviorist who can show her how to go about working through everything.

"Give" and "take" games where he can learn to be gentle when taking the object from the hand might help. But from the sound of it, this dog is a little undertrained for his age and temperament. Wild play is not abnormal at all, but if he went after you instead of the toy, that's where I see a problem.

Your friend really should get professional help. But tell her to be careful about who she gets. There are trainers out there who are so harsh and stern that they cause more problems than they can ever solve. She needs someone who knows the science of behavior and how dogs operate and learn.

I do hope she gets things on track for her sake and the dog's sake. Let us know.

[IliamnasQuest]

In addition, I adamantly recommend that you or your friend do not put him on the ground if such an incident happens again. It's a good way to put a dog in more of a defensive position and you could get a bad bite. It is imperative that prevention of such a situation where this is likely to occur is in place.

This is a valid point, but I do also want to clarify my statement in the previous post. I posted in haste and looking back on it I can see how easily it could be interpreted in a less than optimum way .. *L*

When I say "my dog" there was an unspoken assumption (on my part) that the dog had a high level of bite inhibition already established, because my dogs ALWAYS do. I start from day one and teach them that teeth on a human are just not acceptable - I don't even want gentle mouthing, given the breeds I own (chows and shepherds). Teeth can be on toys and sticks and bones or even on the other dogs (in play), but not human skin. I do a lot of re-directing, and as the dog matures a bit I use the "eht" correction. Because I'm very consistent it's rare to use any sort of physical correction, IF I had a seven month old dog that latched onto someone else and wouldn't let go, I would definitely have that dog ON the ground in a heartbeat.

To me, there's just no real excuse for a properly trained dog (or any dog, for that matter, short of a trained police dog) to nip let alone grab and hold on to a person. And because my dogs have been so handled and taught from an early age, I could give a physical correction (like grabbing the collar, popping to the ground and then a scolding - NOT a beating or even a single smack, but a definite in your face, "I'm the boss, TEETH ARE NOT TO BE USED ON HUMANS" scolding) without getting bit by my own dog.

But I don't recommend that for others. If you do that, and get bit, it's a huge indication of the lack of proper, consistent leadership. It's not something I use on a general basis, but would (and could) if I felt it was truly warranted.

So - lots of obedience training, lots of re-direction of the dog's use of mouth, lots of exercise, stopping all interaction if the dog nips or uses inappropriate teeth - these are all the things to do initially.

This is another of those "explaining over the internet is such an awkward thing" posts .. *L* .. I'm kind of appalled that anyone owns a Czech line GSD and allows it to be so out of control that it grabs and HOLDS ON to the point of having to be pried off. I can't imagine having a dog that untrained - it's a time bomb.

Lesslis, I hope you didn't get much injury from that bite. I imagine you'll not be too eager to let that dog come and play at this point!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[showdawgz]

Thank you all for the responses. I appreciate every opinion and will take and learn from each. Fortunatly, this was a puppy and only left me with a good size bruise and a crushed ego on my part. If this was an adult the damage could have been much worse. At the risk of sounding like a avid "overthinker", this was a great lesson for me.
Lesson 1- I have a lot to learn about dog behavior and how to properly interact with the different bloodlines and drives. never,never never underestimate the power of these beautiful creatures.
Lesson 2- How quickly all this took place, in a matter of seconds the entire picture of fun changed due to the stupid moves on my part and the great observations of this working dog. I keep thinking, why didn't i just drop the stupid toy? guess i just froze and went into my own defense mode even though i have read, talked, read and read more about this type of working dog. By the way, the owner did inform me that this was a very high drive dog and handled the situation well within the few seconds she could react. The puppy is very obedient to her and listened to her first command to release.
Lesson 3- My 18 month old shepherd is a "PET". I lover her to death, but a little disapointed that she was smarter then me and didn't want to get hurt. : ) so glad she didn't.

Again thanks for all the input.

[happyhound]

Thank you all for the responses. I appreciate every opinion and will take and learn from each. Fortunatly, this was a puppy and only left me with a good size bruise and a crushed ego on my part. If this was an adult the damage could have been much worse. At the risk of sounding like a avid "overthinker", this was a great lesson for me.
Lesson 1- I have a lot to learn about dog behavior and how to properly interact with the different bloodlines and drives. never,never never underestimate the power of these beautiful creatures.
Lesson 2- How quickly all this took place, in a matter of seconds the entire picture of fun changed due to the stupid moves on my part and the great observations of this working dog. I keep thinking, why didn't i just drop the stupid toy? guess i just froze and went into my own defense mode even though i have read, talked, read and read more about this type of working dog. By the way, the owner did inform me that this was a very high drive dog and handled the situation well within the few seconds she could react. The puppy is very obedient to her and listened to her first command to release.
Lesson 3- My 18 month old shepherd is a "PET". I lover her to death, but a little disapointed that she was smarter then me and didn't want to get hurt. : ) so glad she didn't.

Again thanks for all the input.

Now I'm confused. Are you lesslis or do you know lesslis personally?

[houndlove]

:popcorn:

[Aussie Red]

A) the dog in question is untrained and needs to be trained asap before as others said he becomes known aggressive and earns that title by action and has to be destroyed

B) the actions you took as far as swinging the toy around lead to his bad action think about it. High prey drive and already hoarding the toys and you swinging it around was like offering it a moving duck dinner.

I do not really fault you for the kicking as if a person is being attacked you will do what ever it takes to stop the attack but it sure did not make any sense to a high prey driven dog really.
This dog is on the cusp at 7 months old to becoming unmanageable and shelter bond if it is not trained asap.

[showdawgz]

Now I'm confused. Are you lesslis or do you know lesslis personally?

Yes, I know her personally, I was there yesturday when this incident happened. However, this was my nieces dog, not mine. I logged in at her house, and forgot to log back out. Mods, you can check IP numbers if you want.

This is a very responsive puppy, and responds well to his owner (doing very well since she's only had him for about a month or so), however he is labelled as a "defensive" pup and really showed my niece what that really meant. He's definately going to be a dog that needs to be watched and controlled 100% of the time. His prey drive is high and has a classic strong czech line temperament. He was not being agressive when going for the toy, but to the naive eye it could have easily been percieved as agression. Lis proceeded to kick at the dog, in a threatening manner, and thats when he went into defensive mode. He was corrected for this behavior by the owner, and owner only. This is exactly why I will NEVER correct a dog other than my own, there is no need (in the dog's eyes) to accept correction/agression from anyone other than pack leader.

My niece and lesslis learned a good lesson yesturday. This is exactly the type of situation I was referring to when it comes to control/ prevention. If I was doing drive building and my dog accidentally got my arm or hand, I dont stop, it was an accident. Now, some dogs intentionally bite you out of spite because they are demanding they get a bite, and really dont care if its the toy or my arm, now that is when you stop, not for accidents. I told my niece and lesslis to be careful with him (as I could see his agressiveness since she got him) until they knew the true temperament of the dog. There are certain dogs you cannot be agressive towards, however I am not justifying the dogs actions, its a lesson learned.

[Doberluv]

There are more parts of training than obedience. A dog may sit, down, come, heel but be very naive about other behavioral issues. I think she could use the help of a behaviorist and this dog could learn something about bite inhibition. There's a thread in this forum about that. I urge you to let her take a look, even if this pup is an old pup with strong jaws already.

[IliamnasQuest]

Just for clarification - the initial post said the dog had to be "pried off" of the person he was biting, and yet now it's being said that he "listened to her first command to release". Which is true?

Aggressive, defensive, prey drive, play drive - it really makes no difference to someone who's being bitten. I second the advice to seek experienced, qualified help with the training of this dog. Find someone who understands how a dog works and isn't just going to put a prong collar on and jerk the dog into submission. This isn't a dog for a novice handler to try to train on their own (I don't know the level of ability the handler has, but she's got a seven-month-old dog that's willing to bite).

A defensive dog with a high level of prey drive is not a safe dog until he learns a high level of control.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[showdawgz]

There are more parts of training than obedience. A dog may sit, down, come, heel but be very naive about other behavioral issues. I think she could use the help of a behaviorist and this dog could learn something about bite inhibition. There's a thread in this forum about that. I urge you to let her take a look, even if this pup is an old pup with strong jaws already.

I warned my niece about the possible issues this dog may have, knowing the bloodlines and the characteristics of those dogs. He comes from lines with very sharp civil dogs, notorious for very high defense and fight drives. But apparently she knows everything :rolleyes: (remember Dobegurl? If so, you may see my frustration). She has her work cut out for her, but I think with time and vigilance she will get him under control.