A Growl From the Big Man

[DanL]

Gunnar actually growled at me yesterday. He's never done that. Here's what happened.

I wanted to try and weigh him. This means weighing me, then picking him up and weighing us both, and then doing the math. Unfortunately, with my large persona, and his size, it's hard to get an accurate reading.

I called him to me, and gave him an down/stay a few feet from the bathroom door. I got the scale out into the middle of the floor where I'd have room. I went out of the bathroom, bent down to him, and he growled! He was like, "I know what's going on here, and I'm not into it." I pet him some, then called him to me and made him sit and down a few times, then went to pick him up, and he grumbled the entire way into the bathroom. Afterwards, he was just fine, is usual self. He even rolled over for a belly rub when we were done.

By picking him up I put him clearly in a vulnerable and submissive position, and I'm sure it isn't comfortable for him, but it's something he needs to be able to handle in case we have an emergency or something.

[SisMorphine]

Make picking him up a fun experience. Lots of food and praise. Having a dog who doesn't allow you to pick it up or physically manipulate it can absolutely be a problem. Did you do a lot of grabbing/touching work with him when he was a puppy?

[smkie]

maybe he was sorry and that is why he rolled on his belly..

I was on the sofa and leaned back against VIc and in a milliasecond he not only growled he snapped, not bit, but it was so fast. He looked so positively horrified afterwards. I hadn't put any weight on him, i was just horsing around. He is supersensitive about someone laying on him. I am pretty sure that a child must have done the "i have a stuffed thing not a puppy" at one point and hurt him greatly for i now know he is ultra paranoid about weight being pressed against him like that and if children do lay next to him on the floor he immediantly gets up and moves. Now i am working slowly on this. Is it possible there is an injury you don't know about? A sore muscle or bone? I more then understand the concern because my dog has done the same a couple times and it shocked me, but always concerning the same issue. Could someone have harmed him putting him on a scale that you don't know about? Or something similar? Knowing how much you work with him and know him well i think there might be another reason then attitude.

[DanL]

Sis, he was babied from day one, and he has been manipulated, handled, bent, spindled, and mutilated his entire life. Well, not mutilated, you get the picture. :) I mean, when it's toenail time, he'll sit and give you his paw and let you clip them. He'll let you clean his ears, open his mouth to look at his teeth, any kind of procedure with no problem. I haven't picked him up in a while though, and I don't really need to do it, and I seriously doubt he'd bite me. If he did, we'd certainly have a "come to Jesus" meeting real fast.

smkie, I don't think he rolled because he was sorry. I don't think dogs can even think that way. He rolled over because he wanted a belly scratch. He's not one for being used as a pillow either, but he has never growled or anything when I do that, he just gets up and moves. He'll lay against you though, and he'll come up in my lap and rest his chest on my legs while keeping his back legs on the ground, and stay there for 5-10 minutes getting pet. In the morning, and when I get home from being out, his greeting is to run up and go between my legs and stand there so I can scratch his rump, then he comes out the other side, and does it over and over again.

[smkie]

did you do a body check? AS to not being sorry you have never seen Mary when she has goofed...;) she sits in front of me, rocks from one foot to the other, her eyes squinted her ears back, tail thumping a drum roll on the floor. i swear to God she is saying...i am sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry really i am. I didn't mean it truly i didn't. I have never seen another dog apologize quite like this.It is so goofy it is impossible to stay cross with her.:D

[Dekka]

He might have rolled to show submission (and the scratch) as what you did scared him, for what ever reason. I was bathing all the dogs, and decided to bathe the BC I was sitting (she just went home yesterday, we had her for 5 weeks) You can handle her all over, but she got very upset about being picked up. I just picked her up, marked her being picked up (with a yesss) Then put her down and played tug. I did this about three times, after which she was pleased to be picked up.

[adojrts]

Dan, certainly you know your dog best and from you posts you are hardly a novice dog owner.
With my dogs, I have had the odd dog do a grumble, depending on the situation and the dog and it's body language. I can take it as just that a grumble lol.
My stud dog is my best example, he can sometimes grumble and I don't take it as a challenge, threat etc. He often comes to me (often when one of the girls is coming into or is inheat), he puts his head under my arm and oh boy does he grumble. Anyone hearing him, would swear he was growling like crazy, but he isn't. He is just tell me all his woes and how unhappy he is at that moment lol, oh he can go on and on!!! His hackles are not up, his body isn't tight, he is just vocalizing, in short he is having a b***h fest and its not directed at me or even at the other dogs........poor guy, tough to have you know what and not be able to act upon those instincts everytime lol.

Lynn

[Charliesmommy]

Are you concerned about his growling at you or no? Like Adjorts said, I'm sure you know when to be concerned and when not to, I'm just curious about what your take on it is.

[ToscasMom]

did you do a body check? AS to not being sorry you have never seen Mary when she has goofed...;) she sits in front of me, rocks from one foot to the other, her eyes squinted her ears back, tail thumping a drum roll on the floor. i swear to God she is saying...i am sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry really i am. I didn't mean it truly i didn't. I have never seen another dog apologize quite like this.It is so goofy it is impossible to stay cross with her.:D

OMG that's Tosca!

[smkie]

works too doesn't it :D

[DanL]

Are you concerned about his growling at you or no? Like Adjorts said, I'm sure you know when to be concerned and when not to, I'm just curious about what your take on it is.

Well, I was more surprised than anything, then I was concerned- was this a challenge to me? Or was it a simple "please, I know where we're going with this, and I'm really not into getting picked up" moment. I'm going to take a couple steps back and work his basic OB stuff a few times a day for the next few days to make sure he's not ignoring or challenging me on any of that stuff. So far today, we've done a few minutes of basic stuff inside- alternating sits and downs, stays, recalls, heeling, and he was as responsive as ever, and as vocal as usual too. He will always have something to "say" when I ask him to sit and down over and over. :)

[DanL]

smkie, what do you mean, body check- you mean, probe him to see if he's hurt? Or literally, a body check where I bang into him!

I do body checks all the time, since he's so active and a lot of his training is very physical, I like to manipulate his joints and rub up and down his legs and ribs/back to make sure he doesn't have any tender spots.

[Charliesmommy]

When Charlie was 5 or 6 months old I walked into my bedroom and he was on my bed. He stood up and snarled at me, teeth bared, as if to say "This is MY bed and you are not coming near it". He tried to bite me but didn't get a good grip.

I would get attacked on this forum if I said how I handled that situation, but let's just say I decided instantly that he was not going to scare me and he was not going to be in charge of the bed. I wondered for weeks if I handled it the right way (still do actually).

[oc_spirit]

Dan, I think this was more of a "I do not want to be picked up right now" if he just rumbled in his throught as opposed to if he had bared his teeth and clicked his teeth. Granted IMO it wasnt very smart to immediately after start petting and consoling him as that could be viewed as a reward (He grumbled he wasnt pleased about something, you stopped doing it and began petting him). Though the initial grumble I wouldnt take as a challenege to you, allowing that grumble to dictate your actions does give him a leg up.

When OC was younger, (around 2 I believe) and I had to pick him up (forget why) he gave his complaining growl (where he opens his mouth, no teeth baring, and gives a raspy upper-throat growl) I gave a sharp "Hey! Who do you think you are?" and held him in the air for longer that what I was initially going to. He shut up and completely relaxed his body (like he used to as a puppy) and I praised him before setting him back down.

Every now and then he will still give a complaining growl but I just say "That's enough of that, we gotta do this" in a matter-of-fact tone and he deals with it. I think him getting picked up is a bit uncomfortable for him now that he is so much bigger than he was as a puppy. There is not as much full-body support as there was when he was a wee puppy. Kinda like if someone were to come and pick you up now. Itd be awkward and uncomfortable, not necessarily hurting, just wierd whereas when you were a kid and people picking you up was a lot easier, it was actually enjoyed. Make sense?

[smkie]

When you are an emt you do a body assessment..a body sweep. I can't think of any better way to describe it. Palpitate limbs, gently, run your hands over feeling for lumps bumbs bruises, cuts, soreness, swelling, stiffness. When i was working in the kennel i did this with each dog when i walked into their run. AS well as howdys and pats, a quick body sweep let me know about any problems before they got worse. A sore joint, a wasp sting, anything like that could make a dog growl when they are handled even if it isn't obvious to your eyes. No i don't mean a body slam;) :rolleyes: :D

[squirtsmom]

Maybe she has a tender spot, or something wrong. Just a th ought.

[showdawgz]

It could just be a cofidence boost from training. I've seen dogs change from just a few sessions of bitework. They tend to have the "I'm the shyt" attitude, at the beginning of their training (dont worry it goes away, eventually). He's 2.5 also, right? He's a big boy now, and all the adrenaline and testosterone is pumping. What were you doing with him previous to attempting to weigh him?

[houndlove]

I will tolerate....okay maybe not tolerate, but not freak out over, very very occasional rumbly growls from the dogs, in situations where I can understand why they might feel the need to do that. Conrad has growled at me maybe 3 times in his entire life, and twice I think it was mainly due to me kind of (not on purpose) sneaking up on him while he was sleeping in the dark. Third was kind of a random resource guarding incident, which is really unusual (so much so as to be unheard of) for him. In all those situations I chose to not confront but to defuse the situation by giving a command that he knows well in order to get him out of the strange state of mind he had gotten in to. I'm not going to get in to it with a 90 lb. dog. With the resource guarding, I asked him to kennel up and he immediately dropped what he had and went to his crate calmly. I let him hang out there for a couple minutes and then called him back and gave him his toy back. No more problems.

We all have bad days, sometimes our backs hurt or we didn't sleep well or we just forget ourselves. I don't think it's fair to hold dogs to a higher standard than we hold our other loved ones too. If this becomes a habit, then yes there's a problem (possibly physical given the context). But one growl out of a whole lifetime I don't think is anything to worry about.

[DanL]

Charliesmommy, I hear you. That's a "come to Jesus" intervention! :)

OC, I didn't just bend down and pet him, I gave him a pretty loud verbal "hey whats that about" kind of response. Then I petted him, then I picked him up and weighed him. His actions didn't stop me from doing what I wanted to do. He never showed any teeth or anything- it was a grumble at best, and he grumbled the entire way into the bathroom.

smikie- ok, that's what I thought you meant. Like I said, I do that stuff to him all the time with no issues.

squirtsmom, maybe he has a tender spot, I'm not sure, but he's doing everything he usually does, and the body check didn't bring up anything.
Showdawgs- I was kinda thinking his training might have something to do with it. Which is the LAST thing my wife would need to hear! Yes, he's 2 1/2 and becoming very confident with himself. We weren't doing anything unual prior, I was working, took a break he followed me out to the family room, I went to the bathroom, and decided to see if I could weigh him. He's hard as a rock now, and his chest and hips are filling out so I was curious to see if his weight has changed or not.

houndlove- I understand your point. This dog has a high pain threshold. When he was about 16 months old he had sprained his foot so bad he could barely walk, yet it didn't stop him from wanting to play fetch and do all his normal activities. And probing at that didn't cause him to growl or anything. He even laid there and let me put ice on it for him.

Really, the whole thing took me by surprise, since it's never happened before in this situation. ONCE in a while, if he's got a real high value food item like 3lbs of pork shoulder, he will "grumble" if I go pet him while he's eating. He sounds like he's saying "yum yum yum". I can take the food away with no problem though and he's never stopped eating and showed teeth or anything.