The BarkBusters Thread

[Sweet72947]

I have seen BarkBusters mentioned in other threads where people have expressed less than satisfaction with them, but I've never seen anybody elaborate on why that is. So I thought I'd start a thread about our experiences with Barkbusters. Here's mine:

I had adopted a dog from the animal shelter (this was all before Benji, 2 years ago), and she turned out to have a lot of behavioral issues; some were simple like counter surfing, no basic obedience, and barking. Others were more complicated like leash reactivity to other dogs, seperation anxiety, and fighting with Daisy (my lab). I saw a Barkbuster's pamphlet in the vet's office and since they were the cheapest trainer I had found thus far, I gave them a call. The rep was a very nice guy. But the training was weird.

You throw a small bag of chains toward your dog and yell "bah". Its supposed to simulate the growling and snapping of a dog giving another dog a correction. We also put a halti on the dog and just let her fight it and get used to it on her own terms. Its a commonly done that you just throw halti's on dogs and let them fight it instead of introducing it gradually. The saying is "the more they fight it, the more they need it." I found the training kind of stupid. There were a few things he taught me that I found useful, like how to desensitize a dog to distractions using the same methods that are discussed on here. But on the whole it didn't help much. I ended up having to give the dog to rescue because she wanted to kill Daisy (ripped her ear almost in half, $400 for stitches).

So anyone else have experience with Barkbusters they would like to share?:)

[houndlove]

I don't have any experience with them but to me it just seems like they're the McDonalds of dog training. Cheap, low quality, everywhere, homogeneous, one-size-fits-all. It's a franchise. Anyone who can pony up the dough for the franchise fee can go in to business as a dog trainer after going to one of their courses. We wouldn't trust that same model with our health care (I hope) or our children's schools (I hope), so it doesn't make sense to take that approach with dog behavior.

Besides, I just have a visceral gut negative reaction to the name. I wouldn't want anyone to "Bust" my dog. Teach, train, work with, modify the behavior of, yes. Bust? Thank you but no.

[Xerxes]

Funny thing is that you've described exactly the same procedure for your dog that one of my friends described to me for her dog. All her dog was doing was barking a bit from boredom. Kind of funny...like Cressida said, the McDonalds of dog training.

[Zoom]

This is their "gimmick" and most of their trainers have very little idea how to actually train or even handle relatively simple behavioral problems. I will also say that every dog that I've met that has gone through BB has come out worse for the experience. I can usually tell I'm in for some sort of trouble when a dog wearing one of their collars walks through the door. Not sure if it's just a coincidence or not, but oddly enough all the dogs that have snapped/nipped at me while my back was turned (they like to nail the back of my calf it seems) have all gone through this program.

So Yeah, I cringe and roll my eyes when I hear someone talking about taking their dog to BB.

[ToscasMom]

I actually never heard of them till it was mentioned on this forum recently. Dober, they have their "own" collar?

[Zoom]

I thought I was Zoom....but yeah. They look like this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/RubyRae/1356-DEFAULT-m.jpg

but have a Bark Busters tag sewn into the side so everyone knows just how much their training doesn't work.

[ToscasMom]

Sorry Zoom, you just look so different today. Is that some kind of non-choker choker? What's its point?

[HoundedByHounds]

Never heard of them here...must not be in Texas. We have "Man's Best Friend" on the TV all the time tho. And of course the ever present Petsmart/Petco training.

[Zoom]

Ok, I realize I haven't showered yet, but geez...

It's basically a martingale with noise. They have limited slip so the dog doesn't get choked, but they also can't pull out of the collar. The other trainer at work loves these types of collars, since they don't really deliver a physical correction, but the sound of the chain sliding lets the dog know that it didn't do something correctly.

[ToscasMom]

Ah ok, thanks Zoom. Was just curious.

[Doberluv]

They base their training on avoidance....by way of punishment; startling, intimidation etc...just like your run-of-the-mill trainers who don't know behaviorism. As we know, there are better ways to train. (with a brain) LOL.

[SummerRiot]

Im going into work today to speak my displeasement about them to my superviser..

They charge a LOT of money too.. $450 for an initial set up.. and then each visit after that is free.

Apparently b/c I work at a clinic - they will give us session for free.. YAY Riot Can be scared of these people and bite them! ..

NOT GUNNA HAPPEN. I was totally displeased with what they do and how they go about doing it.

Its all intimidation training and I DO NOT like that.
They dont seem to praise the good, but scare the bad out of them.

She told us a story on how this little dog kept biting the owner whenever she went to reach for something from it.. so she comes it and did her "BAH" thing and the dog was scared poopless from her and would RUN FROM HER each time she got near it..
How is that good training?

*throws hands up*
I give up LOL

Edited to say - THey also have a website lol www.barkbusters.com

[ToscasMom]

Jenn, for some vets, it just fall$ nicely into line with pushing the Science Diet $ales. If the finders fee is good enough, let's go for it!

[SummerRiot]

LOL some of our vets at the meeting were less then impressed with her methods.. lol

Thankfully Riots "vet" at the clinic doesn't even push the clinic food on clients unless otherwise "needed" like kidney failure or liver failure.

[Zoom]

They like to tout a "lifetime guarantee on training that will solve any problem in 3 hours or less!" So they're catering to the segment of the population who wants the magic button fix without the work. Also, I think, the reason that e-collars are getting so popular again...for so many people, it's push button training without much thought behind it.

(We just had a chapter of Sit Means Sit open up here. :mad: )

[DjEclipse]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here but I've been reading the forums for a few days now. There seems to be a lot of good information here.

Please excuse the horrible spelling, I can't type and my spell check isn't on this computer yet.

We just got our puppy at 8 weeks. Ollie is a Coton De Tulear, right form the start we had a few problems. Apairently the breeder never used a crate with the dog and taught them to go on newspaper in the house. The first night in the crate he went absolutley nuts.

A few days later he started to test us by barking, biting, chewing etc.

We called bark busters as we met the trainer at a dog event a few month's earlier. We talked a bout some of the theory at the show and liked the non violant (sp?) way of training. The life time guarantee was another selling feature.

They base their training on avoidance....by way of punishment; startling, intimidation etc...just like your run-of-the-mill trainers who don't know behaviorism. As we know, there are better ways to train. (with a brain) LOL.

Have you actually spoken to one of their trainers about the theory? Their ways of training are very similar to what i have read here. What you have left out in your post is their biggest part of their training. Praising your puppy for doing good.

The way it was exlained to us is there are 4 levels that the mommy dog or any dog goes through when diciplineing their pup in a pack.

I am trying to remember so stay with me :)

1. She will ignore and with body language show that she is not impressed with the behavoir.

2. If it keeps up She will use her voice to let the pup know he/ she is doing something they are not supposed to be doing. The BAH is to mimic that.

3. Is the, ok, you're still not listening so the mommy will growl to let the pup know. The metal chains are to mimic the high pitched sound of the mother.

4. Is the actual physical where the mom will tae action physically. We're not supposed to ever use this level, don't pick up your dog when training, your hands are supposed to be friendly things.

So for us it was biting, Ollie likes to bite when playing,, we give a deep toned BAH. the first time i tried this Olie went form biting my hand to licking it. Here is the key, as soon he did what he was supposed to be doing, you are to immediately praise the dog for doing good. The BAH is used instead of saying NO or what ever, and the praise is the key part in letting the dog know he/ she has done well.

We tried saying NO, in a deep voice and it was ignored.

This is just an example of their theory and training methods. We noticed a change in Ollie's behavior right away. We were able to play with him again without him biting etc. We also were able to use it for recall, now he comes and sits very well, even walks on a leiche great, no pulling, doesn't try to be domoate/ lead etc.

Like someone said here, all the good training advice in the world can't help the dog if the owners don't want to put in the time and work with the dog. Some people do want the one time fix my dog, here is some money. And we all know it takes time work and investment in your dog for any training to work.

The only thing we're having a hard time with is the crate training and potty training as up until we got him he was able to do what ever he wanted and was never in a crate. He has a pretty bad case of seperation anxiety, which doesn't hep in potty training.

Just my .02c (and a little more) :)

Cheers

[ToscasMom]

Cleanup, Aisle 7.

[DjEclipse]

Cleanup, Aisle 7.

Please explain ?

thx.

[Doberluv]

The dog is "testing." The dog isn't "listening." The dog is "blowing me off." The dog "knows, but is being stubborn." "Mommy dog does this, so human needs to do this too." This is all anthropomorphizing. This is not what science and applied behaviorists think how dogs perceive things. This is all human cognition, human values and has nothing to do with dogs and their survival instincts. Why shouldn't they "blow" something off if they've gotten along fine without it for the past 15,000 years? It's about training, teaching, not punishing dogs for what is natural and normal to them. Dogs don't care if you're impressed with them or not. How is your internal workings of importance to them? Dogs do what works for them. There are other ways.....better ways. Why resort to throwing chains and yelling at them when you don't have to?

Dogs have evolved to live with humans. They know we are not dogs. Dogs evolved from semi-solitary village dogs and are not pack animals, social though they are. They haven't been living like wolves for a very long time.

I know what these peoples' philosophy is on training. They do not know behavior. That is evident by the things they say.

And now I am off to Idaho....you all can deal with this. LOL!

[Cheetah]

Once upon a time, I tried BarkBusters for Eevee's dog aggression... it didn't work lol...

I used my own methods and she's fine now.

[DjEclipse]

There are other ways.....better ways. Why resort to throwing chains and yelling at them when you don't have to?



Thanks for your reply.

I was just giving my experience with them so far.

We are new to the puppy training, we have read for hours on end, trying to figure out what is best for our puppy, but there is so much conflicting info out there it's very hard to figure out what is the best way of going about it.

Saying NO and being stern does not seem to work this is the first thing that has.

If there is a better way I am all ears. I want what is best for my puppy regardless of where the info comes from.



I know what these peoples' philosophy is on training. They do not know behavior. That is evident by the things they say.



Example?

[Zoom]

I'm glad that they've seemed to work for you, however you "only" have a puppy who hasn't had time to really form bad and ingrained habits yet. So for a "blank slate" I'm sure their track record looks a little better. But as far as trying to fix established issues, I can't begin to say how much I DO NOT recommend them.

[houndlove]

Dr. Ian Dunbar (http://www.siriuspup.com/about_founder.html) is one of the world's foremost authorities on puppy training.
Pamphlets on common behavior problems: http://www.jamesandkenneth.com/behavior_problems.html
Books and DVDs: http://www.jamesandkenneth.com/

The thing about dog training is that it is a completely unregulated industry. Anyone can get up one morning, decide they want to be a dog trainer, print up business cards and call themselves a trainer. They can even then hire other people, similarly unknowledgeable, create a franchise and get rich. It is a field where the buyer has to really do their homework in a serious way before taking the plunge. I think most people with dogs have at one point or another made a mistake in this area as well and taken the word of someone they really should not have taken the word of. We live and learn.

But if you're looking on the internet for famous dog trainers and behaviorists in order to see what they say and look for it in local trainers, look for people who have academic degrees in animal behavior or psychology. This does not mean these people never work with dogs and sit in offices all day. That's a misconception that I honestly don't know how it keeps getting spread around. To be a teacher you have to take college classes AND spend time in classrooms observing teachers and teaching yourself, and animal behaviorism is the same way--you take college classes AND you spend time observing more experienced trainers and working with animals yourself.

Look in to people like Jean Donaldson (her book The Culture Clash is, for my money, the absolutely best all-around book for understanding why your dog does what he does and figuring out how to modify his behavior), Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Karen Pryor, Kathy Sdao...these are highly knowledgeable, highly trained, extremely experienced people at the forefront of dog training and behaviorism and all of them would completely disagree with the way Bark Busters approaches dogs.

[Zoom]

Great post!

[Laurelin]

I've never even heard of them. I guess I'm with Gina, are they not in TX?

[houndlove]

Thank ya! In addition it should be noted that I am NOT AT ALL PLEASED about the fact that the industry is not at all regulated by anyone.

"It got the job done" may work for painting a house. Hey, if at the end of the day the house is painted where it needs to be, and not painted where it doesn't, great, whatever you did, it worked. Maybe you painted it in the nude, or did it bottom to top or top to bottom, did it all yourself or had a team of 50 people, or covered yourself in paint and hurled yourself at each wall in succession, it doesn't really matter how you did it just that you did it.

But paint is not going to, in two years time, decide it has had enough of your BS and bite your face off.

[DjEclipse]

Dr. Ian Dunbar (http://www.siriuspup.com/about_founder.html) is one of the world's foremost authorities on puppy training.
Pamphlets on common behavior problems: http://www.jamesandkenneth.com/behavior_problems.html
Books and DVDs: http://www.jamesandkenneth.com/

The thing about dog training is that it is a completely unregulated industry. Anyone can get up one morning, decide they want to be a dog trainer, print up business cards and call themselves a trainer. They can even then hire other people, similarly unknowledgeable, create a franchise and get rich. It is a field where the buyer has to really do their homework in a serious way before taking the plunge. I think most people with dogs have at one point or another made a mistake in this area as well and taken the word of someone they really should not have taken the word of. We live and learn.

But if you're looking on the internet for famous dog trainers and behaviorists in order to see what they say and look for it in local trainers, look for people who have academic degrees in animal behavior or psychology. This does not mean these people never work with dogs and sit in offices all day. That's a misconception that I honestly don't know how it keeps getting spread around. To be a teacher you have to take college classes AND spend time in classrooms observing teachers and teaching yourself, and animal behaviorism is the same way--you take college classes AND you spend time observing more experienced trainers and working with animals yourself.

Look in to people like Jean Donaldson (her book The Culture Clash is, for my money, the absolutely best all-around book for understanding why your dog does what he does and figuring out how to modify his behavior), Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Karen Pryor, Kathy Sdao...these are highly knowledgeable, highly trained, extremely experienced people at the forefront of dog training and behaviorism and all of them would completely disagree with the way Bark Busters approaches dogs.

Thanks for the link,I will spend some time reading all the info there at lunch.

Like I said, I am not set in stone as far as train methods go, I am always open to any advice, I'm not going the be the stobourne (sp?) new dog owner that thinks he/ she knows best. I want what is best for my dog.

I am still a little lost about what is wrong with the Bark Busters methods of training. A lot of what I was told by them is exactly what I am reading here. The only difference being is instead of saying no, or ah-ah to a god to let them know they are doing something they are not supposed to be doing, they use the word BAH... followed by the bag if the initial bah doesn't work? Also, not to use treats as you don't want your dog to be reliant on treats for obedience, praise should be enough.

I am just currious.

Like I said before, he is doing well with sit, come, walking etc. but the separation anxiety is making us sick (literally).

We were told to make his crate happy place, chew toys etc. When he wines or cries do not go to him, ignore him, only go to him when he is quiet and being good, then praise.

We do all this but he still barks etc. when ever were not with him. Even when we put him outside to go pee/ poo, or if we're in a different room for 1min and he's in the kitchen.

We are kind of lost as we don't see any change in the separation anxiety.

[DjEclipse]

Thank ya! In addition it should be noted that I am NOT AT ALL PLEASED about the fact that the industry is not at all regulated by anyone.

"It got the job done" may work for painting a house. Hey, if at the end of the day the house is painted where it needs to be, and not painted where it doesn't, great, whatever you did, it worked. Maybe you painted it in the nude, or did it bottom to top or top to bottom, did it all yourself or had a team of 50 people, or covered yourself in paint and hurled yourself at each wall in succession, it doesn't really matter how you did it just that you did it.

But paint is not going to, in two years time, decide it has had enough of your BS and bite your face off.

I do agree with you there, but if bottled water has no regulation I don't see dog trainers being regulated any time soon... unfortunately.

There are so many different methods of training, who's to say, or how do you know which one is proper? This is the delema that myself and my GF, the new puppy owners are faced with.

[Zoom]

Do a search through out the training forum here, the little blue box near the upper right hand side of the screen that says "search this forum" and put in "seperation anxiety" and anything else you might be looking for.

What is different about their bag and what we say on here is that the bag, at least from what I've seen, tends to make dogs feet shy, wary of sudden hand movements and skittish around metallic noises. Not necessarily things I want to see in my dog.

Seperation anxiety is something that takes a while to see any noticable change in, unfortunetly. There is no "magic fix" for it, unless you want to dope your dog up. Then they'll just be too stoned to notice, again not something I recommend. It sounds like you're on the right track though, it just takes time and patience. I've also found that saying the same thing before leaving helps, it's like a cue that lets them you are leaving but you are coming back as well. I use "be good, I'll be back". You can say whatever you want, just be consistant with it. Gradually increase the time you are gone and only come back in when the dog is quite. (in practice of course, you can't really do this as you're leaving for work) Most dog's SA peaks at about 20 minutes...by this point they either settle down or have destroyed anything they are going to destroy by this point.

As far as picking the right trainer....go with one who's methods you are comfortable with being used on your own dog (good rule of thumb is to never pay someone to do to your dog what you would prosecute for doing to your child), ask to sit in on a class and see what sort of results they are getting. Dont' listen to anyone who promises outlandish results in a short amount of time...ask what their background is. Where did they get their start? What experience do they have with the issues you are needing worked on?

[DjEclipse]

Again, thanks for the reply :)

Do a search through out the training forum here, the little blue box near the upper right hand side of the screen that says "search this forum" and put in "seperation anxiety" and anything else you might be looking for.

I've been searching and reading as much as I can, I guess I need to be more patient... though the neighbours have already been at my door becasue he barks when I let him out to go pee/poo. he get so worked up he doesn't calm down enough to actually go, this is what worries me.


What is different about their bag and what we say on here is that the bag, at least from what I've seen, tends to make dogs feet shy, wary of sudden hand movements and skittish around metallic noises. Not necessarily things I want to see in my dog.

Ok I can see that being a problem, I will look for that in Ollies behavour. So the BAH is ok, just not the idea of the bags/ metalic sounds etc.


Seperation anxiety is something that takes a while to see any noticable change in, unfortunetly. There is no "magic fix" for it, unless you want to dope your dog up. Then they'll just be too stoned to notice, again not something I recommend. It sounds like you're on the right track though, it just takes time and patience. I've also found that saying the same thing before leaving helps, it's like a cue that lets them you are leaving but you are coming back as well. I use "be good, I'll be back". You can say whatever you want, just be consistant with it. Gradually increase the time you are gone and only come back in when the dog is quite. (in practice of course, you can't really do this as you're leaving for work) Most dog's SA peaks at about 20 minutes...by this point they either settle down or have destroyed anything they are going to destroy by this point.

So I guess it's just waiting out the storm... how long does it usually last for? myself and My GF are physically sick becasue of the lack of sleep and stress. We don't want to resent our puppy, but it is so frusterating, lol

I read and was told that you're not supposed to give him any indication that you are leaving as it will increase the anxiety if he knows you're leaving?

[Xerxes]

First, the sound of the chain is not meant to mimic the mother's growl. It's meant to distract the dog from what it's doing.

Secondly, if your puppy is biting you then you should do what puppy littermates would do: Yelp first, walkaway and end game second. It was said previously that dogs do what works for them. Puppies want to play. Play has established rules. "Don't bite too hard" is one of them, they learn this from their littermates and from other playmates.

As far as the training of Barkbusters goes, it seems to be a one size fits all method of training. I cannot believe that for a minute-as each dog has slightly different needs and behaviours.

Houndlove made an excellent and insightful post, I'm sure that you'll find loads of information in those links.

[houndlove]

Animal training and behavior is a science, so who decides what is proper are people who have a background in the science. Dog training is not this mystical "whispering" thing that people seem to be so fond of anymore. It's just science. Medicine is also a science, and it is regulated. Doctors have different, sometimes opposing, protocols for treating certain diseases, but we trust that all of them have a solid background in the science of medicine and even when they disagree they are doing so knowledgeably. They aren't just making this stuff up as they go.

Two things with the BarkBusters:
--If anyone ever again tells you that dogs shouldn't need to be rewarded for performing, run, do not walk the other way. Praise is not sufficient reward for most dogs nor should it be. Many dogs are conditioned to understand praise as meaning, "I won't get yelled at or scared when I hear that squeaky voice sound" and they act enthusiastic about it. But that's still not a reward. A reward is something the dog really truly WANTS with every fiber of it's being for it's own sake. For my dog Marlowe this is absolutely positive unequivocally food, of any kind. For Conrad he really likes food and I use it a lot but he also appreciates a kind touch or closeness with me so I use that sometimes too. For a Labrador retriever, retrieving is something you can use as a reward. For bully breeds it's often the chance to play tug that's extremely rewarding. Whatever, it doesn't matter what the reward is. It's how you use it. A reward is a reward, not a bribe. Rewards are given AFTER the behavior is performed, not before and not even shown to the dog or waved around in it's face before it performs. Rewarding also works when you put it on a schedule: when you first teach a new behavior, reward 100% of the time so the dog clearly learns that what it is doing is what you want. Then you reward only 80% of the time so the dog begins to play you like a slot machine, not a coke machine (people don't stand around feeding money in to coke machines for hours because they are predictable--but slot machines are another story entirely because they work on a variable schedule of reinforcement). Then you reward 75% of the time. Then 50%. Then 20%. Then 5%. Then you just keep it at 5% or 1% for the life of the dog. The dog thinks "This may be the time I get that awesome reward!" and performs the behavior, every time. They essentially are gambling, which is very addicting and very reinforcing if there is a low level of reward at unpredictable intervals.

--Telling your dogs no or screaming at them or throwing things at them teaches them nothing. I use a sound "ah ah!" but it is not like yelling "NO!" or throwing a chain. It is an interruption. It interrupts their chain of thought for a moment, they look at me to see why I'm making a noise, then I tell them what I want them to do instead. So when I see Conrad about to start digging, I say "Ah ah!" and then he looks at me and I say "Come!" and he comes and then I lavish him with petting and rewards and treats if I have any on my person. I also use what's called a "no reward marker" when I'm training a new behavior. What this is is just a signal to the dog that they made a mistake and should try again. If I'm teaching Marlowe to spin around and as I'm doing that at one point he, instead of spinning, jumps up and down, I use a no reward marker to tell him that what he did will not be rewarded but if he tries something else, that might be, so he should give it another shot.

These principles are those used by trainers of animals in zoos as well. You can't bully or scare a 2500 lb. walrus into behaving, and no one would ever try to suggest that you mimic the way a mamma walrus deals with her baby with a grown walrus--that's just silly. These same scientific principles (called operant conditioning) work with ALL animals with nervous systems. I'd like to see someone from BarkBusters throw a chain at an elephant to get it to behave!

[Kayla]

The other downside of bark busters is its pretty much a franchise so you may get the occasional decent trainer but thats the thing theres no gaurintee as anyone can buy a piece of there buisness carry around there name and do whatever they want.

Back when I was considering a behaviouralist for Duke ( when I could afford one) I called the barkbusters near me. On the phone it all sounded great until the lady got to the 3 hour gaurintee crap. I simply said i wasn't intrested in band aid solutions and wished her a good day.

[DjEclipse]

Thanks to all that replied once again.

I went home to let Ollie out out at lunch (right now myself and My GF are going there once at 11:30 and once at 2:30, (I have the 2:30 shift) so he can do his business :)

I was out in the dog run with him ( he was just laying there as usual, lol), when a nice man from the Humaine society came to the house.

This morning our Bi**H of a neighbour pounds on our door screaming about the dog barking (he's out there for 15-30min to go poo once in the morning 7:30am, and once at night 2:30am, the rest of the times are durring the day, he doesn't bark at night as we are with him). I opened my mouth to tell her he is a puppy with separation anxiety and we are working on it... but she cut me off saying she was going to call the cops. I said said "go ahead", then she said I'll call the Humaine society as she was storming down my driveway. I shouted, "even better". Well I guess she called them, lol

Lucky for me I was out side with Ollie, and the entire time I was talking to him he was laying at my feet, I even hit his head by accident with my shoe and not a sound. The gentleman understod about the separation anxiety and that you can't come to them when they are carying on like that. Saw that Ollie was healthy and well, not agressive at all and basically said the call was a waste of his time.

Some people are just A55holes, and she calls her self an animal lover. I want to teach him to bark on command just to **** her off when I'm at work :)

[DjEclipse]

Secondly, if your puppy is biting you then you should do what puppy littermates would do: Yelp first, walkaway and end game second. It was said previously that dogs do what works for them. Puppies want to play. Play has established rules. "Don't bite too hard" is one of them, they learn this from their littermates and from other playmates.

So you allow play biting? 99.9% of the time when Ollie does bite it is not hard and just playing. I don;t remember the last time he bit me even remotley hard. Do you allow play biting at this age?


Houndlove made an excellent and insightful post, I'm sure that you'll find loads of information in those links.

There is a lot of good info in this thread already, I am sure it will help a lot, now I just have to remember it all and work on it.

[DjEclipse]

houndlove, thanks again for the post. I agree with you about the regulation, it would be much easier for people like me as a first time puppy owner.

So basically teach my dog to gamble and i'll be fine, I guess there is something to that famous pic of the dogs playing poker :P

In all seriousness, so far my puppy has been really good with responding with praise. He didn't come trained to do anything, not even sit, come etc. We've taught him to sit and come (I know nothing special to you experienced people), with just praise. The idea behind using priase instead of treats is if you're out somewhere with no treats, you're dog won't listen to you as all it knows is treats.

But I see your point about the treat theory, I will start to incorporate some treats at random for good deeds. They certainly won't be given out for just being cute anymore.

About the bags, what happens when your dogs get conditioned to the Ah ah, or are so worked up in play time, or what they're doing that the ah ah isn't enough? The bags are only for those times.

I'm doing a google search right now on operant conditioning :)

[Zoom]

Again, thanks for the reply :)



I've been searching and reading as much as I can, I guess I need to be more patient... though the neighbours have already been at my door becasue he barks when I let him out to go pee/poo. he get so worked up he doesn't calm down enough to actually go, this is what worries me.

Go with him then. :) This way you will able to tell when he goes and give praise and reinforcement for going outside. This will make potty-training easier on you as well as keeping him from barking.



Ok I can see that being a problem, I will look for that in Ollies behavour. So the BAH is ok, just not the idea of the bags/ metalic sounds etc.

Sure, there's always room for a negative verbal marker; most of us tend to use an "Eh-eh" or "Ah-Ah", sort of a short, gutteral sound.



So I guess it's just waiting out the storm... how long does it usually last for? myself and My GF are physically sick becasue of the lack of sleep and stress. We don't want to resent our puppy, but it is so frusterating, lol

I read and was told that you're not supposed to give him any indication that you are leaving as it will increase the anxiety if he knows you're leaving?

It depends on the dog, honestly. Also, keep in mind that your pup has had a sudden massive life change, going from a mother and littermates that were there all the time to suddenly being the only dog living in a place where the people disappear all the time for no good reason and leaving him alone. It's a little jarring. Just keep up a routine as much as possible, ignore the tantrums and get the book "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons.

My Aussie and my Lab both seem to do better if I say "be good, I'll be back". Some dogs flip out non-stop if they can tell a departure is coming up. Do you give your pup any special treat or toy when he goes into his crate so you can leave? Many people have great success with stuff a size-appropriate Kong with some treats/kibble/biscuits, stuffing the large hole with a spoonful of peanut butter or yogurt and freezing it overnight. Then, when they leave in the morning, the pup gets this to work on and gives him something else to focus his attention on, instead of thinking about how much it sucks to be alone. Also, have you tried leaving on a radio or TV on low for some background noise?

Things will get better! The first part to getting a puppy is always a little rough, but the rewards will be well worth it!

[DjEclipse]

Go with him then. :) This way you will able to tell when he goes and give praise and reinforcement for going outside. This will make potty-training easier on you as well as keeping him from barking.

The thing is, if I go with him he usually just site at out feet and falls asleep, if we move he follows us and repeats, lol


It depends on the dog, honestly. Also, keep in mind that your pup has had a sudden massive life change, going from a mother and littermates that were there all the time to suddenly being the only dog living in a place where the people disappear all the time for no good reason and leaving him alone. It's a little jarring. Just keep up a routine as much as possible, ignore the tantrums and get the book "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons.

I try to keep that in mind, but sometimes you forget when he in a huge fit which is starting to drive my GF nuts.


My Aussie and my Lab both seem to do better if I say "be good, I'll be back". Some dogs flip out non-stop if they can tell a departure is coming up. Do you give your pup any special treat or toy when he goes into his crate so you can leave? Many people have great success with stuff a size-appropriate Kong with some treats/kibble/biscuits, stuffing the large hole with a spoonful of peanut butter or yogurt and freezing it overnight. Then, when they leave in the morning, the pup gets this to work on and gives him something else to focus his attention on, instead of thinking about how much it sucks to be alone. Also, have you tried leaving on a radio or TV on low for some background noise?

I sometimes leave a mini kong filled with the dried liver treats,he seems to really love them. We tried the penut butter in the kong but it was the first time he went po in his crate, I think it was too much food for him. I do like the idea of freezing it overnight, that way he can;t eat it all at one shot and it will keep him occupied. I'll give it a shot.

One stupid qustion though, what is kibble? is it a brand name or an actual type of food/ treat?

Is Yogert ok for dogs to eat?

And lastly, we have tried the radio on and it didn't seem to make a difference so today I turned it off.


Things will get better! The first part to getting a puppy is always a little rough, but the rewards will be well worth it!

I hope so, thanks agian :)

[houndlove]

Kibble=any kind of dry dog food. And yes, dogs can have yogurt. Most dogs are lactose intolerant (most people are too for that matter) but can have dairy products in limited quantity. The great thing about yogurt though is that it's cultured so it doesn't even have any lactose. My guys get a frozen kibble+yogurt Kong every morning for breakfast when we leave.

Most puppies are pretty stuck to you and up your butt and that's a double-edged sword. On the one hand, there are the seperation issues you're experiencing. On the other, motivated by praise and your attention. At least for now. A lot of people get a bit of a false sense of security with their obedience training with puppies and then get a big wake up call when the puppy starts to become an adolescent and then and adult and all of a sudden your squeaky voice just isn't as tantalizing anymore :lol-sign: Dogs go through this boundary-pushing teenaged period just like humans do. The parallels are frightening! Just be thankful your dog doesn't ask you for the keys!

Anyway, if you train with treats you don't have to carry treats around all over the place. Trainers who have a vested interest in spreading misinformation about this method of training like to imply that you do, but you don't. Once you get to that 1-5% reward schedule, it's not necessary. Though personally I find sticking a cookie in my pocket every now and then to be a small price to pay for being able to instantly reward my dogs when they do something really superdelux awesome.

I don't think anyone has brought this up yet either, but every dog owner should know about NILIF (and this pretty much everyone in dogdom agrees on, it doesn't matter what your training method is, and that's a rare thing!). http://www.k9deb.com/nilif

Also, check out this video on clicker training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC367wKGi4M

[DjEclipse]

Kibble=any kind of dry dog food. And yes, dogs can have yogurt. Most dogs are lactose intolerant (most people are too for that matter) but can have dairy products in limited quantity. The great thing about yogurt though is that it's cultured so it doesn't even have any lactose. My guys get a frozen kibble+yogurt Kong every morning for breakfast when we leave.

So for the yogert, do you get the regular yogert or the flavoured pre mixed or fruit bottom yogert? I will have to give the kibble/ frozen yogert snack a try.

My GF is home from work sick and she says he is crying on and off every 5min all day long. We thought it was only for a few minutes and then he would settle down, but it's all day long. So he must be bored, even with the toys he has. I hope the kong will keep him busy.


Most puppies are pretty stuck to you and up your butt and that's a double-edged sword. On the one hand, there are the seperation issues you're experiencing. On the other, motivated by praise and your attention. At least for now. A lot of people get a bit of a false sense of security with their obedience training with puppies and then get a big wake up call when the puppy starts to become an adolescent and then and adult and all of a sudden your squeaky voice just isn't as tantalizing anymore :lol-sign: Dogs go through this boundary-pushing teenaged period just like humans do. The parallels are frightening! Just be thankful your dog doesn't ask you for the keys!

Anyway, if you train with treats you don't have to carry treats around all over the place. Trainers who have a vested interest in spreading misinformation about this method of training like to imply that you do, but you don't. Once you get to that 1-5% reward schedule, it's not necessary. Though personally I find sticking a cookie in my pocket every now and then to be a small price to pay for being able to instantly reward my dogs when they do something really superdelux awesome.

I don't think anyone has brought this up yet either, but every dog owner should know about NILIF (and this pretty much everyone in dogdom agrees on, it doesn't matter what your training method is, and that's a rare thing!). http://www.k9deb.com/nilif

Also, check out this video on clicker training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC367wKGi4M

I read the Nothing in Life is Free web page last week before the Bark Busters trainer came over. I found it while doing some searches here. Everything the trainer was telling us was pretty much the NILIF theory.

And we will startgiving him treats at random for some "good deeds" :) Especially the going poo and pee in the right spot, he still takes his time going when we're out there with him.

Good video, I'm not sure if I like the clicker idea but there were some good tips in there.

I was all excited last night to try out some of the things I learned yesterday from you people here, the name game, tiring him out with games like sit, maybe try and teach him to stay.

Unfortunately last night my Father was in the hospital as he had a stroke so I wasn't able to try any of them. I hope sometime tonight I will be able to get started with him, it's going to be a rough few days now.

Thanks again for the help/ advice.

[houndlove]

I'm sorry to hear about your father.

With the yogurt, use plain, unsweetened. There's a lot of sugar in fruity yogurt and your pup doesn't need all that (most humans don't either!). Also, some artificial sweeteners are deadly to dogs, so don't go with a "sugar free" variety. Just get plain. I use whole milk plain yogurt (we eat it too-it's delicious!).

Do you keep all your pup's toys on the floor and all around at all times? Sometimes familiarity breeds contempt--the toys stop being fun and special if they're there all the time. I think down in the puppy area there's a great sticky about why your puppy needs a toy box. I reserve the really special stuff only for when we're about to leave the house. The dogs only get their Kongs, their Orka Jacks (another food stuffable toy), and their raw bones in their confinement areas right before we leave the house. When I come home, all of those things get put up and away.

[DjEclipse]

I'm sorry to hear about your father.

thanks, he lost sight in his one eye, was extreemly confused, luckily his work called the ambulance right away and they were able give him that blood thinner (there's only a 3hr window where you can use it), and he seems to be doing much better.

Anyway...

Whole Milk plain yogert it is :)


Do you keep all your pup's toys on the floor and all around at all times? Sometimes familiarity breeds contempt--the toys stop being fun and special if they're there all the time. I think down in the puppy area there's a great sticky about why your puppy needs a toy box. I reserve the really special stuff only for when we're about to leave the house. The dogs only get their Kongs, their Orka Jacks (another food stuffable toy), and their raw bones in their confinement areas right before we leave the house. When I come home, all of those things get put up and away.

We have a toy box, but you are right, he does play with all his toys when ever he wands, there isn't one special toy that is crate only.

He had one toy he loved in the crate, if I would take it out of the crate to play he would bring it back in the crate and put it away, it was really cute.

But we were told that since it was a stuffed squirrel it wasn't the best toy for him as it is the same consistancy of our hands. Maybe we should put it back in the crate with him again?

I just wen tout and bought some pigs ears chew. for him to chew on, maybe that will keep him occupied.

Thanks again for your replies.