stay and lie down the two hardest to accomplish

[LB2007]

Help me please, lie down and stay seems to be the two most difficult to accomplish. He is heeling nicely on and off leash, why is stay so hard and lie down, I do it the way with a sit position then move treat to the floor with a swaying of my hands to let him see it is different. He wont lie down:hail: and stay, he will do it for a SHORT spot but not long.

[smkie]

start in a hallway where the end is close off....make your lessons very very short, building a couple seconds longer then the last time...u can use t-touch massage to calm them when you have them in down to help them understand this is not a punishment. Victor would down but back up in the blink of an eye...the t-touch settled him...and learn their body language so you can set yourself up for sucess. if the belly is not on the ground, they are really not down, just crouched. I knew when the hip finally came to rest that my dog was ready for stage two, which is back up a foot, then a second foot, with high praise for the tiniest bit of progress. Eventually you will be able to back up the hall, use your hands in a open palm in front of the nose stay stay and keep your hand up so they can see the same signal. That will be more effective then your words. Use both at the same time...reward with a favorite toy or game. Eventually you will be able to slip from sight for just a second..then a little longer. Make it a game of hide and seek. As long as it is fun the dog will be more then willing to be a participant. Short short lessons many times a day and don't give up, don't punish or yell. Quiet makes them listen, and repetition wins the cause.

[Doberluv]

Down is hard for some dogs, as it's a vulnerable position to them and if yours is resisting even with luring, another way is to capture the behavior. If your dog happens to lie down on his own accord, reinforce with a treat and praise. Do it as often as you can. Then start adding your cue word, "down" WHILE he he down, not before.

Another way is to sit on the floor with your knees bent up so you make a sort of upside down V with them. Make it like a game and lure him under you knees so he has to scrunch down to fit. Be sure to stop before he goes all the way through to the other side. Even if he doesn't go into a complete down, reward for an approximation for now.

For sit, I break it up into "the 3 D's." Distance, duration and distractions. Lure him into the sit and stand right in front of him for one second before he gets the treat. Don't talk or give cues at first. Then add another second, and another....gradually. Do not move back away from him. Once he's able to sit still for 10 seconds or so, start adding your cue, "stay."

Then move onto distance and relax the criteria for duration. Step back one step and immediately return right in front of him, then two steps, then three, always returning immediately....no duration at all. Do this over several days or weeks. If he breaks the stay, it is because you've gone too far too soon. Go back to where he was successful. You want to be able to give lots of reinforcement which makes him tend to repeat a behavior.

Then put the two together. Go back one step and count to 1, then two steps back and count to 2, then 3, etc. Use a marker (a clicker or a special word) to mark the behavior....to let him know that what he just did or is doing is the correct response.

Dogs don't do things because we love it when they do. They do things which work for them. Pay him well for small improvements. If he can stay for 3 seconds with you 3 steps away, fantastic! He doesn't have to do the whole perfect behavior all at once. He must have many reinforcements along the way in order to learn.

After he is getting onto this and has associated the cue word with the behavior, start adding a few mild distractions, then a little more etc.

The reason most professional trainers don't add the cue word right away is because it is meaningless to the dog anyhow at first. Get the behavior first by other means; luring, capturing, by successive approximation, shaping....and then, once it is becomming reliable, as though the dog is getting it, add your cue. Another thing is that if you use a cue before the dog does the behavior when he hasn't made the association between the cue and the behavior, what he will learn is that the cue means whatever it is he IS doing at that time, which may not be the behavior you want. So, when you start using it, use it simultaneously with the behavior, not to elicit the behavior....not till later when you're sure he's made the association.

Keep your sessions short, fun and rewarding. You can even ask for one sit while you're doing your chores and call it good. Then do something else...one or two things and leave it at that. Little short requests here and there are very effective.

Good luck!

[LB2007]

Down is hard for some dogs, as it's a vulnerable position to them and if yours is resisting even with luring, another way is to capture the behavior. If your dog happens to lie down on his own accord, reinforce with a treat and praise. Do it as often as you can. Then start adding your cue word, "down" WHILE he he down, not before.

Another way is to sit on the floor with your knees bent up so you make a sort of upside down V with them. Make it like a game and lure him under you knees so he has to scrunch down to fit. Be sure to stop before he goes all the way through to the other side. Even if he doesn't go into a complete down, reward for an approximation for now.

For sit, I break it up into "the 3 D's." Distance, duration and distractions. Lure him into the sit and stand right in front of him for one second before he gets the treat. Don't talk or give cues at first. Then add another second, and another....gradually. Do not move back away from him. Once he's able to sit still for 10 seconds or so, start adding your cue, "stay."

Then move onto distance and relax the criteria for duration. Step back one step and immediately return right in front of him, then two steps, then three, always returning immediately....no duration at all. Do this over several days or weeks. If he breaks the stay, it is because you've gone too far too soon. Go back to where he was successful. You want to be able to give lots of reinforcement which makes him tend to repeat a behavior.

Then put the two together. Go back one step and count to 1, then two steps back and count to 2, then 3, etc. Use a marker (a clicker or a special word) to mark the behavior....to let him know that what he just did or is doing is the correct response.

Dogs don't do things because we love it when they do. They do things which work for them. Pay him well for small improvements. If he can stay for 3 seconds with you 3 steps away, fantastic! He doesn't have to do the whole perfect behavior all at once. He must have many reinforcements along the way in order to learn.

After he is getting onto this and has associated the cue word with the behavior, start adding a few mild distractions, then a little more etc.

The reason most professional trainers don't add the cue word right away is because it is meaningless to the dog anyhow at first. Get the behavior first by other means; luring, capturing, by successive approximation, shaping....and then, once it is becomming reliable, as though the dog is getting it, add your cue. Another thing is that if you use a cue before the dog does the behavior when he hasn't made the association between the cue and the behavior, what he will learn is that the cue means whatever it is he IS doing at that time, which may not be the behavior you want. So, when you start using it, use it simultaneously with the behavior, not to elicit the behavior....not till later when you're sure he's made the association.

Keep your sessions short, fun and rewarding. You can even ask for one sit while you're doing your chores and call it good. Then do something else...one or two things and leave it at that. Little short requests here and there are very effective.

Good luck!


Great Post, thanks a million.

He knows sit, he responds to sit very nicely 95% of the time. There are times he ignores it totally like when I am in the kitchen preparing his meal:rolleyes: .

I have been doing stay but the cue is was being given as I was walking away. My mistake. Also, I made the mistake to think stay meant I leave the room then call him. Oops. I hope I can correct this now. What is the difference in the stay position that I return to him with and the stay when I am leaving the house or something? I have been confusing him. Since he was much smaller he will stay standing when I walk away, and he will only come to me when I bend and open my arms as to welcome him without a voice being used. I was hoping that that is what I would use as the stay, but now he and me are both confused and I have to start all over. He is 20 weeks, is it too late? At what age they stop learning?

[Doberluv]

If he appears to be ignoring you, help him to sit. Do not give commands that you can't enforce. Also, use a release word, like, "OK" or "free" or whatever you choose. That means that until he hears that word, he doesn't get up. Again, use very short durations at first and squeeze in your release word before he's apt to break the sit or whatever you're having him do. He's not ignoring you on purpose. He must be very distracted and excited for his food. Get him to sit for just a few seconds and release him. Don't ask for too much too soon. Work up.

Another thing...once he's sitting well, which it sounds like he is.....try it with you standing a different way than usual or from more of a distance from him. Dogs see our body language as cues too. For instance, your dog might know sit because your standing in front of him means to sit. But if you're sitting on a chair 8 feet away from him and not facing him and you tell him sit, he may not get it since you're not standing in front of him as usual. It's a different thing. Dogs do not generalize well. So, with whatever you teach, vary your position, location, context etc once the dog gets the basic behavior down.

Dogs do not stop learning unless and until they are senile. It's never too late. Your puppy is very young and learning and training is a life time process. Be sure to let him be a puppy and make everything fun, cheery and rewarding, not too serious. But be consistant and systematic.

Stay means stay in that position. (of course, it means anything you teach him that it means, but that's what most people mean by stay) So, if you're leaving the house and you tell him "stay," he must stay there in that position for hours. Well, we all know that isn't likely to happen so the dog learns that stay doesn't mean stay in that position. It means get up whenever he wants to. I don't usually say anything much when I leave. Of course, they're going to stay in the house where I leave them. I might say, "I'll be back." Pretty meaningless, but it's for me that I say that. LOL.

I use "wait" to mean stay approximately in that position. He can get move around, but not go anywhere of any significance. For example, with my dogs, when we are leaving my property and going down my long driveway, they are off leash. When we near the gate, I tell them to wait till I catch up to put the leash on. The dog can move around, sniff, pee, whatever...but not go any further toward the gate. (I never walk off the property without a leash on them, even though my road is a dirt road and very safe) It's just "policy." LOL.

When I teach "stay," I return to my dog 9 times out of 10. Once in a while I'll call him to come, now that he has a rock solid stay. However, most every time, it is wise to not call your dog from a stay. I use "wait" if I want to call him from a distance. When I put my dog in a sit and want him to stay sitting, not move around, I do use body language similar to when I ask him to stay...no hand signal, but it is a little different than "wait" when the dog is in motion. So, he may be interpretting that wait as the same thing as stay. I don't know. But...the difference is that I use the word, "wait" instead of "stay." At any rate, for a long time, it is advisable not to call your dog from a stay until he is absolutely reliable and advanced...as in a long stay where you are out of sight and with distractions abounding. That's down the road a long ways.

When you want to leave the room and practice his stay with you out of sight, that's after you've practiced his regular stay for a long time and in all kinds of environments, distractions and contexts. That is again a gradual thing, starting with very short disappearances...like 2 seconds and popping your head out so he can see you and telling him how wonderful he is but to continue staying and pop out of sight again for just a few more seconds and so on. I used a tree and I would come out in the beginning and give a treat and tell him to stay (as in....very good...continue what you're doing.) I'd come out every few seconds and reinforce his small successes....and gradually lengthen the time I was behind the tree and spread out the reinforcers. (treats)

Anyhow, I hope I answered what you meant. Let us know how he comes along. Remember, it's never too late. The first dog I trained was an adult dog with no previous obedience training. He learned just great. And your pup is still very, very young.

Happy training!