Choke chains and training collars.

[Kayota]

Why are they bad? o_o

[jess2416]

We have a few threads about them...

if you do a search of them, I'm sure you'll find something...

[Kayota]

Alrighty. Maybe you'll convince me to quit using a training collar :3

[Maxy24]

My dog was on a Choke Chain most of his life, trained him nothing and I don't like hurting my dog in the name of training anymore.

here are some threads and links:
http://www.dog-school.co.uk/Choke%20Chains!.htm

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43019

I'll find more later.

[Maxy24]

And if you need help with pulling or whatever you're using the collar for I'm sure we can help :D

[Maxy24]

I noticed in the other thread that you were referring to prongs not chokes (or maybe both). I still will never use them, I don't believe it is ever necessary in training a dog. I am not totally against them (although i used to be) but I only think they are ok for dogs that pull on lead. I do not think they are OK for other basic training because i do not support collar corrections. Between prongs and chokes prongs are better simply for the fact that they cannot cause as much physical damage to a dog.

I am always saddened when people talk about getting a puppy and that they are getting a prong or choke before they even get the dog. A dog without a pullinh problem should not be put on one, the dog should be trained not to pull before it even becomes a problem.

I think before any training collar is used the person should actually make a very good attempt at training the dog with positive methods not just jump to the conclusion that they have a puller and need one of the training collars.

[Kayota]

I noticed in the other thread that you were referring to prongs not chokes (or maybe both). I still will never use them, I don't believe it is ever necessary in training a dog. I am not totally against them (although i used to be) but I only think they are ok for dogs that pull on lead. I do not think they are OK for other basic training because i do not support collar corrections. Between prongs and chokes prongs are better simply for the fact that they cannot cause as much physical damage to a dog.

I am always saddened when people talk about getting a puppy and that they are getting a prong or choke before they even get the dog. A dog without a pullinh problem should not be put on one, the dog should be trained not to pull before it even becomes a problem.

I think before any training collar is used the person should actually make a very good attempt at training the dog with positive methods not just jump to the conclusion that they have a puller and need one of the training collars.

Padfoot's three years old, and I've tried training him properly for that amount of time. Only now have I made progress. Also, Padfoot was once a puller. With a bit of work with the prong collar, he no longer needs it to walk. I don't usually use it when I work with him anymore, either, unless he's really misbehaving. If, however, you have a better suggestion, I'd like to hear it, because Baby really pulls - the prong collar doesn't help at all.

[elegy]

if you already have your mind made up, then no, we probably won't change your mind.

i use a nylon slip collar from time to time *shrug*. i also use prong collars if i'm walking multiple dogs. but i don't think they're all that useful for "training". they don't teach the dog anything, and a dedicated puller can pull through both a choke collar and a prong collar (meet my dog mushroom). you gotta teach 'em to do otherwise.

[Kayota]

You can change my mind, trust me. :3 My mind is in no way made up - I know my dogs dislike prong collars.

[Maxy24]

Well have you tried anything with her so far?
The best method is usually the stop and wait method. The dog is pulling because she wants to walk, fast. But if every time she pulls the thing that she wants stops she should learn slowing down ends up being the better alternative.

So when she pulls stop,(you WILL have to stop every two steps I promise, but it's worth it), don't speak to her or anything, just see what she does. Now i know Max would just stand there tight at the end of the leash waiting. I never worked with max on it though, i was too embarrassed stopping every few steps. it's one of the biggest things I regret. If he were still here I would have done so good with him on this training. So for Max I think I would have needed to use treats. Of course max being the difficult dog he was could really care less about treats on walks. So it would have to be a command i trained at home. He would respond to treats at home so I would have to walk and as soon as he hit the end of the leash, stop. Then using the treat say "heel" or a word of your choice (it would not be an official heel though, I would not expect him to stay next to me, it's more of a word to remind him he's gone to far) and lure him to my side, give the treat for going to my side and continue walking.

He would soon figure out when he hit the end of the leash I always stopped and required him to go to my side. Then he would go to my side as soon as i stopped and eventually would figure out the walk continued much faster is he just did not let himself go to the end of the leash.

At that point he could go on an actual walk and use this method.

But that is just what i would do with Max. The average dog is not that complicated I think. So try stopping as soon as she pulls. Just wait, a long while, and see what she does. If she chooses to walk back to you then start the walk back up and continue. Or even if she just lets the leash loosen enough so you know there is no pressure on her neck you can continue and stop as soon as the pressure returns.

The first time you try this she may have an "extinction boom". It's basically her getting frustrated with her puling not working. She may try to pull harder, lunge pace and leap forward at random all while you are just standing waiting for her to stop that nonsense. Eventually she will figure out pulling is not getting what she wants and the behavior will eventually start to pucker out as she learns no neck pressure equals good constant walk.

I'm sorry if this sounds kinda like I'm rambling, this post is kinda un-organized. but I'd like to hear what you've tried first and I want you to go on a walk today or tomorrow and try stopping every time she pulls (wait until the leash is loose) and then starting up again (make it a short distance walk since it will take 10 times longer than a normal one and we don't need you getting frustrated).

Then tell us how it goes. Good Luck!

[Kayota]

I can't walk my dogs during the week, because I only visit my mom's house on weekends :\ But I'll try that next time I'm over there!

[Maxy24]

Well it will really take consistency for it to work. Is you mom willing to work with her on it?

[Tazwell]

I used a prong collar on my dobe a few years back-- I was very pleased with it. It really helped while teaching him not to pull, without choking himself. That training was effective for all collars I put on him after that.

I use choke collars sometimes with the foster dogs, but I don't use physical corrections, really. It just makes it way easier to control them when used properly, and they don't choke themselves (Yes, I have problems with dogs choking themselves on nylon collars. Not choke collars.). Plus there's no way they can really slip out of a choke chain, which is safer for our purposes.

[DanL]

Prongs are useful for other applications than just pulling. I use the prong on Gunnar now mostly for getting his attention when he's in high prey drive and isn't focusing on me. For general dog walking, yes, you can do many things to keep the dog from pulling, and you don't necessarily have to use a prong to teach that. Does it make it easier? Sure. But I agree, a determined dog will pull through a prong. Gunnar will, it doesn't phase him at all to tug against it. He'll get so focused on his agenda that I have to stop him and get his attention, and give him the "slow down" command. When we use a prong on Daisy (when walking all 3 dogs at once), all she needs is a gentle reminder and she'll walk at my side with a nice loose leash. Not even a pop, just a light tug, almost like the noise of the chain moving is all she needs.

[smkie]

there are methods to teach your dog not to pull that work, get the dog's focus on you and do not require a choke or a prong. One is to turn around everytime the dog pulls. THis worked so well for me i wished i had known it years ago, it would have saved me so much time. Please give it a try before you go with methods that choke or poke. It just isn't necessary.

[CanadianK9]

Depends on the dog and the work smkie, alot of softer collars wouldnt work worth carp in some things, for example there are very few dogs in schutzhund that would do well on flat only

[Tazwell]

there are methods to teach your dog not to pull that work, get the dog's focus on you and do not require a choke or a prong. One is to turn around everytime the dog pulls. THis worked so well for me i wished i had known it years ago, it would have saved me so much time. Please give it a try before you go with methods that choke or poke. It just isn't necessary.

With my dobe I did just that- but with the prong. Whenever I used his normal leather collar, he would just always have so much pressure on the leash that he would start hacking and coughing. With the prong collar, he wouldn't have that pressure on his neck.

[Zoom]

All I have to say is that I just got Ms Iditarod Wannabe (Molly the 8 month old Eng. Setter I'm training) to walk on a slack lead for the first time EVER!!! (and for 15 minutes all the while weaving, stopping, sitting, etc) and it was accomplished through the clever use of building attention and a clicker. Now granted, since we're essentially having to start from scratch, we never left the apartment so as to give her a chance for success, but this is a dog who wouldn't even keep all four feet on the ground or any slack in a lead in the apt. before, so for her, this was a MAJOR breakthrough!

She's getting a rest now, I'll go back up later and we'll move out into the hall. But I am also bound and determined to get this dog to walk on a loose lead without having to resort to a training collar. Have I been tempted to put a prong or Triple Crown collar on her? Yes, I have. Especially after the other night. But I also know that this training can be done without any of those things and I'm set on that goal.

Just my .02 cents for the moment.

[Kayota]

Well it will really take consistency for it to work. Is you mom willing to work with her on it?

Probably not. The dogs only get real attention when I'm there :\